Whats the story with Vince Gironda?

[TheDoctor]

I can not remember eaxctly how Vince worded it, but he had said before in the mags that Larry and Mohamed were "advanced" trainers and could handle doing more sets. I am sure that Vince knew that both these guys were using and so he knew that they could handle the extra sets and to failure training. A lot of what Vince recmmended was for the average guy or hard gainer that did not use drugs.

I use Arnolds Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding routine and lift no more than 225 pounds on the olympic bar though when feeling good i can pull most stacks on the rows and go slightly higher on dumbells for some movements but basically i lift light just to get through the routine it usually takes me up to two and half hours to get through the routine6 days a week with sunday off according to Vince Gironda this is totally the opposite to his routine.
So after training with Vince Arnold comes out with this extreme volume training .A paradox one might say ive been clean for 2 years and still find it works for me.When i was on i still lifted light nothing over 400.I am totally bamboozled by Girondas routine it sounds like Mike Menzters Hit.
Shit with all these gurus i am totally confused with what works and what doesnt.Anyway i have been following Arnold routine for nearly 6 years and had superb results, i am completly dumbfounded how Girondas principles worked on an average Joe though he trained Larry and mohummad with volume style workouts.all i see is the Irony.

[LatsMcGee]

I use Arnolds Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding routine and lift no more than 225 pounds on the olympic bar though when feeling good i can pull most stacks on the rows and go slightly higher on dumbells for some movements but basically i lift light just to get through the routine it usually takes me up to two and half hours to get through the routine6 days a week with sunday off according to Vince Gironda this is totally the opposite to his routine.
So after training with Vince Arnold comes out with this extreme volume training .A paradox one might say ive been clean for 2 years and still find it works for me.When i was on i still lifted light nothing over 400.I am totally bamboozled by Girondas routine it sounds like Mike Menzters Hit.
Shit with all these gurus i am totally confused with what works and what doesnt.Anyway i have been following Arnold routine for nearly 6 years and had superb results, i am completly dumbfounded how Girondas principles worked on an average Joe though he trained Larry and mohummad with volume style workouts.all i see is the Irony.

You have to understand that Vince changed their routines very very often, usually every three weeks.  The High Volume stages were usually around or near pre contest. 

[Disgusted]

Popular unproven theory that drugs completely change every training dynamic that i don't believe. They help with certain general apects like recovery and endurance for example but not everything else.

I can't agree or disagree since I am not sure what you mean by "training dynamic".

[LatsMcGee]

Vince also always talked about doing only one exercise per body-part on the
6X6 or the 8X8 system.

Now here comes the contradiction: Vince always bragged about training Larry Scott and Mohamed Makkawy. He had both these guys doing 6X6 or 8X8 with multiple exercises per body-part and he stated more that once that “Larry took every set as far as he could go with it”. That sounded like failure to me. 

V

Well first Vince didn't advocate those forced reps for just anyone.  They were mainly for advanced lifters.  You won't find Vince advocating anything like that in his courses until you get up to the end of the Master Series.  

Vince is pretty clear with training intensity.  He believed that you should hit that 85% everytime you step in the gym but train frequantly as a newby.  He talks about his champions being able to go the extra distance and didn't advocate that type of training for his newer clients.

[LatsMcGee]

I can't agree or disagree since I am not sure what you mean by "training dynamic".

Well the facts are with drugs you do not have to eat as well to make gains,  You can train more frequantly, and you can get away with doing horribly misguided things in the gym and still make gains. 

[Disgusted]

Well the facts are with drugs you do not have to eat as well to make gains,  You can train more frequantly, and you can get away with doing horribly misguided things in the gym and still make gains. 

Yep, drugs build muscle under most types of traning. 

[wes]

Bluto,Vince advocated 32 sets per bodypart for every bodypart when training 8 x 8 style......personally,I find this too much and am onnly using 2 exxercises of 8 x 8 where Vince wanted you to use 4 exercises.

The object is to use the same weight each set and keep rest periods to 15-30 seconds tops,decreasing rest periods as you get more used to the routine.

I have done this for 3 weeks now, and while training as fast as possible,meaning very short rests between sets,I have added weight to the bar, or a plate or two to the machine I`m using each week so far................the first 3-4 sets are light but act as a warmup/prelude to the tougher sets to come.............failure should only be reached on the last 2-3 sets if at all.

Training fast like this is just another way to increase the intensity of effort instead of just upping poundages and plodding through a slow heavy workout.

The less rest you take,the heavier the weight feels and the body never knows what`s on the bar,it only know heavy or light........ask Milos,I`m sure he`ll agree with me/Vince!!  LOL 

[pumpster]

Bluto,Vince advocated 32 sets per bodypart for every bodypart when training 8 x 8 style......personally,I find this too much and am onnly using 2 exxercises of 8 x 8 where Vince wanted you to use 4 exercises.

The object is to use the same weight each set and keep rest periods to 15-30 seconds tops,decreasing rest periods as you get more used to the routine.

I have done this for 3 weeks now, and while training as fast as possible,meaning very short rests between sets,I have added weight to the bar, or a plate or two to the machine I`m using each week so far................the first 3-4 sets are light but act as a warmup/prelude to the tougher sets to come.............failure should only be reached on the last 2-3 sets if at all.

Training fast like this is just another way to increase the intensity of effort instead of just upping poundages and plodding through a slow heavy workout.

The less rest you take,the heavier the weight feels and the body never knows what`s on the bar,it only know heavy or light........ask Milos,I`m sure he`ll agree with me/Vince!!  LOL 

Training with such short rests is only another variation, not a fixed part of it.

Well the facts are with drugs you do not have to eat as well to make gains,  You can train more frequantly, and you can get away with doing horribly misguided things in the gym and still make gains. 

Sure, those particular things. As far as maximizing potential, most of the training fundamentals don't change.

[jwb]

gironda was pretty cool IMO...

he applied the scientific principle where possible in the gym and figured out plenty of stuff before any sports scientists sat down and confirmed it....

eg. the abs are spinal joint flexors and therefore the crunch is the ideal movement not situps.

some of his diet stuff was by the seat of his pants though and I feel he probably attributed certain results to certain variables that were not wholly responsable for said outcomes...

[stuntmovie]

Vince was a hell of a great guy from my viewpoin. Way ahead of his time in many aspects of bodybuilding. I trained at Vince's in the 60's and got to know him pretty well. He was definitely set against squating and would make comments on that subject while attending bodybuilding contests. He was the kind of guy who would definitely take no bullshit from anyone and that is probably how he viewed Arnold on his first meeting. I wasn't there but I can definitely picture that occurance.

I drive by the old place on Ventura whenever I am working at Universal and remember those good old days when there were no more than five or six competitive bodybuilders whom you could count on to make a contest happen in Southern California.

Almost no one knew of ever heard of the IFBB back then. It was strictly AAU or nothing at all - just a bunch of guys who trained at the local gyms who wanted to get on stage and show their stuff.

Any of your guys recall those days when most of the contests were held at the old Embassy Auditoriun in downtown Los Angeles - usually about two or three in the morning after the olympic lifting trophies were handed out? I still run into some of those old timers at today's NPC/IFBB events and sometimes we get into discussions in the lobby and miss the contest itself. Those discussions are mainly along the lines of "Whatever happened to?". Kind of like a high school reunion for us old farts who have witnessed it from almost the very  beginning and respect it for what it is.

Or maybe "for what it was".

[Max_Rep]

I trained at Vince's in the 60's and got to know him pretty well. He was definitely set against squating and would make comments on that subject while attending bodybuilding contests.

Stunt speak more on this. Some of us have read about his training methods. Give us an idea of some of the training he had you doing.

[LatsMcGee]

Feel free to check out my thread in the History section.  It's going to cover all of the bases Vince style.

[Bluto]

 "He was definitely set against squating and would make comments on that subject while attending bodybuilding contests. "

you mean he would comment on physiques and say that big ass or big waist or whatever was due to the competitor squatting or something like that?

[Vince B]

Larry Scott gave the best seminar of any of the champs at my gym in 1979. He said Vince Gironda often exaggerated things to make a point. Larry is a smart guy. I doubt Vince Gironda trained him although they would have had plenty of discussions.

[Bluto]

Larry Scott gave the best seminar of any of the champs at my gym in 1979. He said Vince Gironda often exaggerated things to make a point. Larry is a smart guy. I doubt Vince Gironda trained him although they would have had plenty of discussions.

Larry got a lot of ideas on different exercises, techniques etc I watched one of his seminars some interesting stuff

Especially his ways of doing dips, pull ups, barefoot donkey raises etc

[LatsMcGee]

Larry Scott gave the best seminar of any of the champs at my gym in 1979. He said Vince Gironda often exaggerated things to make a point. Larry is a smart guy. I doubt Vince Gironda trained him although they would have had plenty of discussions.

Larry himself will tell you that when he was in Vince's gym or he was with Vince he did everything Vince said to the letter.  That why Vince considered him his best student ever.

[bmacsys]

Somehow I don't think Vince shattered Arnold's ego. If that had been the case Arnold would be a completely different person today.

Dude, I am sure Vince burst his bubble when he said that. I doubt Arnold was on the verge of suicide. Most people recover from getting their balls broken without major damage.

[pumpster]

Stunt speak more on this. Some of us have read about his training methods. Give us an idea of some of the training he had you doing.

Stunt got back to my PM saying he would like to but is bound by restrictions based on a forthcoming book.

Lots on the training board:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=158432.0

[Old-Skool]

I was Makkawy's training partner during his heyday. He would go to Cali and train at Vinces, and then return to Toronto with crazy routines to do. Example chins 10sets x 10 reps followed by dips 10sets x 10 reps. Makkawy would diet on steak, water, and dessicated liver tabs- and become so irritable he was just plain nasty to be around. What is unknown is that we also trained Gladys Portugues for her one Olympia, and Vince also designed her routines to get that X taper he felt was the key to bodybuilding. Vince actually travelled to Montreal for the show, something he never did- wearing a huge turtleneck and a buckskin jacket with fringes he was quite a sight! A true pioneer who beat to a different drum, and was way ahead of his time. RIP Vince.

[Max_Rep]

I was Makkawy's training partner during his heyday. He would go to Cali and train at Vinces, and then return to Toronto with crazy routines to do. Example chins 10sets x 10 reps followed by dips 10sets x 10 reps. Makkawy would diet on steak, water, and dessicated liver tabs- and become so irritable he was just plain nasty to be around. What is unknown is that we also trained Gladys Portugues for her one Olympia, and Vince also designed her routines to get that X taper he felt was the key to bodybuilding. Vince actually travelled to Montreal for the show, something he never did- wearing a huge turtleneck and a buckskin jacket with fringes he was quite a sight! A true pioneer who beat to a different drum, and was way ahead of his time. RIP Vince.

It was known. I'd have loved to spot her on stiff lagged deadlifts. I worked in with her once at Gold's Venice on Hack Squats. Man she was hot! Everything you just posted was written about in the magazines including the turtleneck and buckskin jacket.

So did you hang with Makkawy on those routines and did you progress on them? Vince pushed him as being natural... was he?   

[Cleanest Natural]

It was known. I'd have loved to spot her on stiff lagged deadlifts. I worked in with her once at Gold's Venice on Hack Squats. Man she was hot! Everything you just posted was written about in the magazines including the turtleneck and buckskin jacket.

So did you hang with Makkawy on those routines and did you progress on them? Vince pushed him as being natural... was he?   

Makkawy natural?....why are we still believing the natural shit...I thought GH15 laid out the limits for natural developement pretty clear.

[Max_Rep]

First of all, I don’t believe GH15 is anything more than a troll, Gimmick. Second, I didn’t say I believed Makkaway was natural… that’s why I asked Old-Skool.

Notice my question was directed at him and not you? Funny what happens when you actually read.

If he really trained with Makkawy, he may have some awesome insight.   

[Cleanest Natural]

First of all, I don’t believe GH15 is anything more than a troll, Gimmick. Second, I didn’t say I believed Makkaway was natural… that’s why I asked Old-Skool.

Notice my question was directed at him and not you? Funny what happens when you actually read.

If he really trained with Makkawy, he may have some awesome insight.   

u believe he is a troll?....DO U UNDERSTAND U CANT GET THAT BIG AND CUT WITHOUT HORMONES STEROIDS AND FATBURNERS AND DIURETICS?? Some of u guys just baffle me.

[MadCroc29]

getting as big as an average natural trainer is impossible without 1600+ mg a week

[Max_Rep]

u believe he is a troll?....DO U UNDERSTAND U CANT GET THAT BIG AND CUT WITHOUT HORMONES STEROIDS AND FATBURNERS AND DIURETICS?? Some of u guys just baffle me.

Again you cannot read. The question was not directed at you. When I think you have something valuable to offer me in terms of knowledge, I'll ask. Don't hold your breath.