Tammy Faye Messner Dies at 65

[BayGBM]

Tammy Faye Messner Dies at 65

By STEVE HARTSOE
The Associated Press
Saturday, July 21, 2007; 9:36 PM

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Tammy Faye Messner, who as Tammy Faye Bakker helped her husband, Jim, build a multimillion-dollar evangelism empire and then saw it collapse in disgrace, has died. She was 65.

Messner, who had battled colon cancer since 1996 that more recently spread to her lungs, died at her home Friday, said her booking agent, Joe Spotts. A family service was held Saturday in a private cemetery, where her ashes were interred, he said.

She had frequently spoken about her medical problems, saying she hoped to be an inspiration to others. "Don't let fear rule your life," she said. "Live one day at a time, and never be afraid." But she told well-wishers in a note on her Web site in May that the doctors had stopped trying to treat the cancer.

In an interview with CNN's Larry King two months later, an emaciated Messner _ still using her trademark makeup _ said, "I believe when I leave this earth, because I love the Lord, I'm going straight to heaven." Asked if she had any regrets, Messner said: "I don't think about it, Larry, because it's a waste of good brain space."

For many, the TV image of then-Mrs. Bakker forgiving husband Jim's infidelities, tears streaking her cheeks with mascara, became a symbol for the wages of greed and hypocrisy in 1980s America.

She divorced her husband of 30 years in 1992 while he was in prison for defrauding millions from followers of their PTL television ministries. The letters stood for "Praise the Lord" or "People that Love."

Her second husband also served time in prison. She married Roe Messner, who had been the chief builder of the Bakkers' Heritage USA Christian theme park near Fort Mill, S.C., in 1993. In 1995, he was convicted of bankruptcy fraud, and he spent about two years in prison.

Through it all, Messner kept plugging her faith and herself. She did concerts, a short-lived secular TV talk show and an inspirational videotape. In 2004, she cooperated in the making of a documentary about her struggle with cancer, called "Tammy Faye: Death Defying."

"I wanted to help people ... maybe show the inside (of the experience) and make it a little less frightening," she said.

That same year, she appeared on the WB reality show "The Surreal Life," co-starring with former rapper Vanilla Ice, ex-porn star Ron Jeremy and others. She told King in 2004 that she didn't know who Jeremy was when they met and they became friends.

Messner was never charged with a crime in connection with the Bakker scandal. She said she counted the costs in other ways.

"I know what it's like to hit rock bottom," she said in promotional material for her 1996 video "You Can Make It."

[24KT]

I had heard that one of her husbands had AIDs.

[OzmO]

Is she likely to go to heaven or hell I wonder based on Christian Standards?

[Butterbean]

Is she likely to go to heaven or hell I wonder based on Christian Standards?

Based on "Christian STandards" if she accepted Christ as Savior she'll go to heaven.

[youandme]

Oh man thats terrible I just watched her on Larry King 2 nights ago. It was sad, but she was upbeat amazingly and held her strong faith, till the end.

[windsor88]

Oh man thats terrible I just watched her on Larry King 2 nights ago. It was sad, but she was upbeat amazingly and held her strong faith, till the end.

Yeah I felt bad for her.   She seemed like a good person.  I heard Ron Jeremy "had" her on the Surreal Life.  That was the rumor anyway according to Vanilla Ice....

[bigdumbbell]

RIP hon

[OzmO]

Based on "Christian STandards" if she accepted Christ as Savior she'll go to heaven.

Yeah, but how many times had she accepted Christ and still continued to repeat sins?

[SS]

she just got her BF to 1% and then she shits the bed.....that's a bummer.

[Butterbean]

Yeah, but how many times had she accepted Christ and still continued to repeat sins?

She only had to accept Christ once.  Then according to the bible, all her sins were forgiven, past present and future.  Ozmo why does that seem to make you upset?

[24KT]

She only had to accept Christ once.  Then according to the bible, all her sins were forgiven, past present and future.  Ozmo why does that seem to make you upset?

STella, honey, you know I just love ya to death, ...but sometimes I just have to practice TOUGH LOVE!

Remember... This is gonna hurt me more than it hurts you. Wha? not buyin' it? I never bought it much either.

Here ya go: With Much Love....  www.zeitgeistmovie.com <--please click me
Courtesy of Berserker

[youandme]

Yeah I felt bad for her.   She seemed like a good person.  I heard Ron Jeremy "had" her on the Surreal Life.  That was the rumor anyway according to Vanilla Ice....

I don't believe that for a second. I watched that season, and she helped that whore trisha from the real world, and was a real great person on the show.

I'm glad she had the oppurtunity to reach the hearts of many before she passed. Lung cancer is not a cancer that is talked about and has little foundations compared to the other cancers since lung cancer has a negative stimga attached to it, ala smoking. sad

[BayGBM]

May she rest in peace.

[OzmO]

She only had to accept Christ once.  Then according to the bible, all her sins were forgiven, past present and future.  Ozmo why does that seem to make you upset?

I'm not upset.

I just ask the question becuase it's been said on this forum that if you truly accept Jesus as your savior the grace of the holy spirit will enter your body and you won't continue to repeat sins.  Yet i'm pretty sure her lying scamming ways continued for quite some time after she "accepted" Christ.

The whole concept of accepting Christ looks great on paper.  /in reality it's flawed and allows a person too many get out of jail free card not hold the sinner accountable becuase in their mind.....they are saved, justified by faith and forgiven....always right?

[Tre]

Hell called to let me know that she'd arrived safely.

They told me she had complained a little bit at first about the warmth, but was really happy to see all her old friends. 

[Straw Man]

She only had to accept Christ once.  Then according to the bible, all her sins were forgiven, past present and future.  Ozmo why does that seem to make you upset?

Future too?

If so, rather than condemning gays (not saying you do - just talking about the Church) then why not just get them all "saved" and then let them have all the gay sex they want?  Dang - I just solved the whole "gay problem".  I can't believe no one has thought of this yet.

btw - this absolving of sins not yet committed explains why the most devious and corrupt people I've ever met in the business world usually turn out to be Christian.   They've already got their ticket to heaven so there's no downside to being a crook. 

[Butterbean]

 it's been said on this forum that if you truly accept Jesus as your savior the grace of the holy spirit will enter your body and you won't continue to repeat sins. 

That is not a correct statement though. 

Once a person is saved we are still living in our flesh and in a sinful world.  We continue to sin but have more power over sin (in being able to control ourselves better and being more aware of sin)....but we still sin.

1 John 1:8 - 2:2

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The whole concept of accepting Christ looks great on paper.  /in reality it's flawed and allows a person too many get out of jail free card not hold the sinner accountable becuase in their mind.....they are saved, justified by faith and forgiven....always right?

The forgiven sinner is still accountable for their sin.  There will be discipline regarding our sins but we do not lose our salvation.  That is provided by God's Grace.  The Grace that God gives us is very difficult for us to understand.  No one is as gracious or merciful as God.

[Butterbean]

Future too?

If so, rather than condemning gays (not saying you do - just talking about the Church) then why not just get them all "saved" and then let them have all the gay sex they want?  Dang - I just solved the whole "gay problem".  I can't believe no one has thought of this yet.

btw - this absolving of sins not yet committed explains why the most devious and corrupt people I've ever met in the business world usually turn out to be Christian.   They've already got their ticket to heaven so there's no downside to being a crook. 

Remember that there are people who claim to be Christian (saved) and are not.  But there are people who are Christians who are crooks too.  You shouldn't let a flawed human being keep you from getting to know God.  He's not the crook. 

And I know people who are gay but I also believe they are truly Christians (saved).  I have my own sins that I deal with and but believe I am  saved.  We all struggle with something.  I know some pastors that are morbidly obese.  Is gluttony something they struggle with?  Possibly.  But that doesn't make them lose their salvation that was provided by what Christ did for us.  If I am a meth addict but believe that Christ is my Savior I will suffer but I will still go to heaven.  Eph 2:8,9:  You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast.

[Straw Man]

Remember that there are people who claim to be Christian (saved) and are not.  But there are people who are Christians who are crooks too.  You shouldn't let a flawed human being keep you from getting to know God.  He's not the crook. 

And I know people who are gay but I also believe they are truly Christians (saved).  I have my own sins that I deal with and but believe I am  saved.  We all struggle with something.  I know some pastors that are morbidly obese.  Is gluttony something they struggle with?  Possibly.  But that doesn't make them lose their salvation that was provided by what Christ did for us.  If I am a meth addict but believe that Christ is my Savior I will suffer but I will still go to heaven.  Eph 2:8,9:  You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast.

How can you tell if the "saving" actually sticks.  I mean do these people (the gays and the crooks) think they are saved but they're really not.   

If one is saved by grace alone then neither good nor bad works make any difference but yet you say that the forgiven sinner is still "accountable" for their sins.  What does this mean? Do they have to do a certain # of hours of community service in heaven or do they not get access to all areas of heaven.  How does one "account" for their sins AFTER death.  Also, why does god hold you accountable for your bad deeds but give you no credit for your good deeds.

[knny187]

I was never a fan of Tammy Faye....

My mother probably disliked her more, but respected some aspects about her.


I can honestly say....after watching her interview with Larry King....I have found respect for her.  I saw things in that interview that I can relate with the passing of my mother.  I could tell she was really worn out, but really fought on through the interview.  She was very courageous to the end & was concerned more for her family, than her own passing just like how my mother was.  My mother had an extremely strong faith.  Probably more than anyone else I know today.  I just saw some similarities in that interview....although if my mother was alive today...she would smack me for comparing her to Tammy in any fashion.

[Parker]

Hmmm, she helped her scheming husband take millions of dollars from guilible people, and now she dies of cancer. His this punishment or being a sacrificial lamb.

[Butterbean]

How can you tell if the "saving" actually sticks.  I mean do these people (the gays and the crooks) think they are saved but they're really not.   

Yes there are people who think they are saved but they're really not.  For instance, some people grow up in a certain denomination that teaches that infant baptism or belonging to their church "saves" them.  It doesn't.

If one is saved by grace alone then neither good nor bad works make any difference but yet you say the the forgiven sinner is still "accountable" for their sins.  What does this mean? Do they have to do a certain # of hours of community service in heaven or do they not get access to all areas of heaven.  How does one "account" for their sins AFTER death. 

If you get drunk all the time your body could be affected adversely.  Maybe you cause an accident and hurt someone.  Maybe you fall down and break your teeth out. 

If you commit adultery you affect lives of others (as well as your own) adversely.  Even if you don't "get caught."

All sin has consequences and can distance you from God. 


The only "accounting" of sins committed after death for the believer as I can see in line w/what I found here (from biblebb.com):

Question

The Bible teaches that as a Christian, when we die we receive different degrees of rewards in heaven. And, I’d like to know if you could expound on those different degrees,

Answer

I think "yes" to both of those questions. There will be varying degrees of reward in heaven. That shouldn’t surprise us: there are varying degrees of giftedness even here on earth. To get a good glimpse of what heaven might be like, look at the church. From the moment of your redemption, the Lord put His Holy Spirit within you, and according to I Corinthians 12, He gave you certain spiritual gifts, right? He gave gifts to all of His church. They differ. What are gifts? They are varying capacities for ministry, varying capacities for service to God in His church. And I think the same thing will be true eternally; I think in eternity, we will all be given according to our abilities and according to our faithfulness--varying capacities for glorifying, serving, and worshipping God.

So, I think that it’s going to be based upon two things. One would be the sovereignty of God, who will choose to give as He wills, as in I Corinthians 12, as He gives spiritual gifts in this life to the church, in whatever way He chooses to do that--that’s a sovereign thing. And secondly, I think there is another component, and that has to do with faithfulness here. I believe our eternal reward will be in some way determined by the level of faithfulness we have had here.

Now, there are a number of reasons why we assume this. One of them was this conversation that Jesus had with the mother of James and John, who said, “My boys want to sit on your right and left hand when you come into the kingdom,” and He said, “It’s not for Me to give that; it’s for my Father to give that.” And there He said, there are going to be some people elevated. Somebody’s going to be on my right, somebody’s going to be on my left, and some others are going to be down the line here--It’s not for Me to decide that; It’s the Father. But, then He went on to say the criteria by which that is going to be decided is faithfulness unto death. So, I think the greatest reward in the future is awarded for the most faithful people, and that probably plays itself out in those who were faithful unto death: the martyrs, those who gave their life. You could give your life in living, as well as give your life in dying, couldn’t you? And you know what I mean by that. You could make the self-sacrifice to the maximum extent even while you’re alive, where you sacrifice everything else and be what Paul called a “living sacrifice.”

So, I think there is definitely going to be, in heaven, varying levels of service, just as there are with the angels: there are archangels, and there are cherubim and seraphim, and principalities and powers and rulers, and all of those varying levels of angelic hierarchy. I think in eternity, we are all going to be sorted out within that eternal worshipping community and given varying capacities and varying responsibilities, which are determined by the sovereignty of God and our faithfulness here. That’s why John says, “Look to yourselves that you lose not the things you have wrought, but that you receive a full reward.” It is possible that you could be faithful, and the Lord be ready and prepared to give you a full reward, but by some sin in your life towards the end of your life, you could begin to forfeit and those things would be taken back off the list, added to the "wood, hay, and stubble" kind of thing, and your reward would be less.

What is it? Is it going to be some people with bigger crowns? No. We’re not going to be going around saying, “Hah! I got a big one; you got a little one!” It’s not going to be that. Whatever we get, I believe in the picture of the 24 elders, we take our crowns and cast them at the feet of the Lord. But, I don’t believe they’re going to be anything that’s visible. I think it’s going to be a capacity for serving God fully and completely. I don’t think you’ll have any sense of loss or any sense of missing anything, because each individual’s capacity will be reached to its maximum. But, I think what we want to do is have the greatest capacity for worshipping God, as His sovereignty would give us and as our faithfulness would warrant.



As far as being accountable for sins after death in the case of the unbeliever, according to the bible they will be eternally seperated from God.  According to what is written about the Great White Throne Judgement (maybe I'll make a thread on that) books will be opened that have records of everyone’s deeds whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought; and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; Psalm 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 18:6; Revelation 22:12).(from gotquestions.org)  I have read this judgment is for unbelievers only ...but I'll do more research on it.

  Also, why does god hold you accountable for your bad deeds but give you no credit for your good deeds.

He does give you "credit" - see above from biblebb.com  - but also He blesses you in your everyday life.

Strawman you presented some good questions that I hope to make some threads about.  Thank you 

[Straw Man]

Yes there are people who think they are saved but they're really not.  For instance, some people grow up in a certain denomination that teaches that infant baptism or belonging to their church "saves" them.  It doesn't.

If you get drunk all the time your body could be affected adversely.  Maybe you cause an accident and hurt someone.  Maybe you fall down and break your teeth out. 

If you commit adultery you affect lives of others (as well as your own) adversely.  Even if you don't "get caught."

All sin has consequences and can distance you from God. 


The only "accounting" of sins committed after death for the believer as I can see in line w/what I found here (from biblebb.com):

Question

The Bible teaches that as a Christian, when we die we receive different degrees of rewards in heaven. And, I’d like to know if you could expound on those different degrees,

Answer

I think "yes" to both of those questions. There will be varying degrees of reward in heaven. That shouldn’t surprise us: there are varying degrees of giftedness even here on earth. To get a good glimpse of what heaven might be like, look at the church. From the moment of your redemption, the Lord put His Holy Spirit within you, and according to I Corinthians 12, He gave you certain spiritual gifts, right? He gave gifts to all of His church. They differ. What are gifts? They are varying capacities for ministry, varying capacities for service to God in His church. And I think the same thing will be true eternally; I think in eternity, we will all be given according to our abilities and according to our faithfulness--varying capacities for glorifying, serving, and worshipping God.

So, I think that it’s going to be based upon two things. One would be the sovereignty of God, who will choose to give as He wills, as in I Corinthians 12, as He gives spiritual gifts in this life to the church, in whatever way He chooses to do that--that’s a sovereign thing. And secondly, I think there is another component, and that has to do with faithfulness here. I believe our eternal reward will be in some way determined by the level of faithfulness we have had here.

Now, there are a number of reasons why we assume this. One of them was this conversation that Jesus had with the mother of James and John, who said, “My boys want to sit on your right and left hand when you come into the kingdom,” and He said, “It’s not for Me to give that; it’s for my Father to give that.” And there He said, there are going to be some people elevated. Somebody’s going to be on my right, somebody’s going to be on my left, and some others are going to be down the line here--It’s not for Me to decide that; It’s the Father. But, then He went on to say the criteria by which that is going to be decided is faithfulness unto death. So, I think the greatest reward in the future is awarded for the most faithful people, and that probably plays itself out in those who were faithful unto death: the martyrs, those who gave their life. You could give your life in living, as well as give your life in dying, couldn’t you? And you know what I mean by that. You could make the self-sacrifice to the maximum extent even while you’re alive, where you sacrifice everything else and be what Paul called a “living sacrifice.”

So, I think there is definitely going to be, in heaven, varying levels of service, just as there are with the angels: there are archangels, and there are cherubim and seraphim, and principalities and powers and rulers, and all of those varying levels of angelic hierarchy. I think in eternity, we are all going to be sorted out within that eternal worshipping community and given varying capacities and varying responsibilities, which are determined by the sovereignty of God and our faithfulness here. That’s why John says, “Look to yourselves that you lose not the things you have wrought, but that you receive a full reward.” It is possible that you could be faithful, and the Lord be ready and prepared to give you a full reward, but by some sin in your life towards the end of your life, you could begin to forfeit and those things would be taken back off the list, added to the "wood, hay, and stubble" kind of thing, and your reward would be less.

What is it? Is it going to be some people with bigger crowns? No. We’re not going to be going around saying, “Hah! I got a big one; you got a little one!” It’s not going to be that. Whatever we get, I believe in the picture of the 24 elders, we take our crowns and cast them at the feet of the Lord. But, I don’t believe they’re going to be anything that’s visible. I think it’s going to be a capacity for serving God fully and completely. I don’t think you’ll have any sense of loss or any sense of missing anything, because each individual’s capacity will be reached to its maximum. But, I think what we want to do is have the greatest capacity for worshipping God, as His sovereignty would give us and as our faithfulness would warrant.



As far as being accountable for sins after death in the case of the unbeliever, according to the bible they will be eternally seperated from God.  According to what is written about the Great White Throne Judgement (maybe I'll make a thread on that) books will be opened that have records of everyone’s deeds whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought; and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; Psalm 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 18:6; Revelation 22:12).(from gotquestions.org)  I have read this judgment is for unbelievers only ...but I'll do more research on it.

He does give you "credit" - see above from biblebb.com  - but also He blesses you in your everyday life.

Strawman you presented some good questions that I hope to make some threads about.  Thank you 

Truly no offense intended but I think all of the theological contortions are nonsense.

If there is a God (our word to describe the ground of our being which is beyond description) then we dwell in God all the time (a Buddhist sutra says - far apart from any perverted views one dwells in nirvanna) and the only problem that we have is that we don't know it or we've forgotten it (a common problem for one who's conciousness seems to be enclosed in a human body focused on temporal aspects of "reality".... me vs. you, mine vs yours etc..). Good and Bad are ethical judgements that we make about ourselves.   There is no choosing the right religion or not.  No need for a priest to absolve our sins. No such thing as sin really (this is the hardest part to understand) and definitely no need to get saved and in fact nothing that needs to be saved and nothing that could ever be condemned.  

The only reason we have religions at all is because we fear the ultimate unknown which is Death and Man has developed all these institutions and rituals to make us feel better about it and more importantly to control people and resource here on earth.   

BTW - please don't tell my very Catholic mother that she wasted her time getting me baptized

 



 

[loco]

Yeah, but how many times had she accepted Christ and still continued to repeat sins?

Why don't you tell us?  How many times?  Do you know her personally?

[Tre]

No one is as gracious or merciful murderous as God.

Fixed.