Author Topic: No Deads, no half-deads, no bent-over rows... (Read 4996 times)

WOOO · « **on:** August 10, 2007, 03:33:18 PM »

Without any of those, how would you design a power back routine...

maybe 5 exercises, 4 sets each...

any ideas?

pjs · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2007, 07:21:23 AM »

Without those, I would take up golf, or maybe mall walking.

What excuse are you using for not doing them?

WOOO · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2007, 01:35:44 PM »

Quote from: pjs on August 11, 2007, 07:21:23 AM

Without those, I would take up golf, or maybe mall walking.

What excuse are you using for not doing them?

i have a back issue that prevents me from going heavy with them... i still do deads but at the end of the workout so i am fatigued and go lighter

pjs · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2007, 03:27:49 PM »

What medical professional diagnosed your problem? What exactly is the problem?

Krankenstein · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2007, 05:31:00 PM »

Quote from: WOOO on August 11, 2007, 01:35:44 PM

i have a back issue that prevents me from going heavy with them... i still do deads but at the end of the workout so i am fatigued and go lighter

Dont worry.....you will be alright....just remember to ice your back then go STRAIGHT into your heavy deads. Your back has been messed up for 2 yrs....it cant get worse. Remember, the longer you ignore the problem the better off it will be. Sooner or later you wont even notice you're hurt. In fact.....I would start to do good mornings with 315+ to start your back workout so that you will warm the muscles up fully!!!!

WOOO · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2007, 05:35:09 PM »

Quote from: DrugFree4Life on August 11, 2007, 05:31:00 PM

Dont worry.....you will be alright....just remember to ice your back then go STRAIGHT into your heavy deads. Your back has been messed up for 2 yrs....it cant get worse. Remember, the longer you ignore the problem the better off it will be. Sooner or later you wont even notice you're hurt. In fact.....I would start to do good mornings with 315+ to start your back workout so that you will warm the muscles up fully!!!!

blow me

Krankenstein · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2007, 06:04:43 PM »

Quote from: WOOO on August 11, 2007, 05:35:09 PM

blow me

Sorry....would that happen before or after you whine and cry about your poor hurt back?

trab · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2007, 06:53:47 PM »

Quote from: WOOO on August 10, 2007, 03:33:18 PM

Without any of those, how would you design a power back routine...

maybe 5 exercises, 4 sets each...

any ideas?

Here - support that low back. Do NOTHING to aggravate it if you've a problem there.

Hammer rows & pulldowns.

High Bench rows and various extensions.

Pulldowns if you can find a grip that dont cause probs.

WOOO · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2007, 07:24:33 PM »

Quote from: trab on August 11, 2007, 06:53:47 PM

Here - support that low back. Do NOTHING to aggravate it if you've a problem there.

Hammer rows & pulldowns.

High Bench rows and various extensions.

Pulldowns if you can find a grip that dont cause probs.

thank ron... someone with a brain

trab · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2007, 07:51:55 PM »

Quote from: WOOO on August 11, 2007, 07:24:33 PM

thank ron... someone with a brain

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=4108&tid=113

Reverse hypers are a possability, check w/ your Dr.
You can do them simply on a high bench, or a large stability ball. No weight, to heavy boots, to Chain around ankles will copy that expensive piece of equipment.

First make sure your ok to do them. This will help strengthen and stabalize low back.

Also No weight to low weight box squats. Sit BACK onto the box,

lilwoday09smb · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2007, 08:54:04 PM »

lots of chins, curl grip and palms away grip, close grip chins, machine rows, pull overs.
i would do
chins 4 sets max
pull overs 3 x 8-10
low cable rows 3 x 8-10
pull downs 3 x 10-12
(insert your deads here)

Krankenstein · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2007, 10:50:33 PM »

Quote from: WOOO on August 11, 2007, 07:24:33 PM

thank ron... someone with a brain

Yeah, because you obviously dont. People with 10x the experience you do try and help you yet you dont listen. Follow the advice of your signature under your avatar.

Bluto · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2007, 02:11:41 AM »

pullups.

powerpack · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2007, 02:14:01 AM »

Yup chins, but I believe you should still train your lower back lightly or it will just carry on getting weaker with time.

trab · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2007, 05:55:24 AM »

I agree w/ Bluto & Powerpack on chins/ Ppullups, but, many arch the low back doing them.

Get a real good read on what is realy up in your low back. Bitch and complain till your DR does a MRI.
Fucking demand one if you got insh or can afford it. Low back prob is nothing to screw with.
It will follow you for life if you do it wrong.

My low back is trash from decades of const work. I can do very heavy pulldowns where I Use just enough momentum at the start to Lean way back with my low back locked, and as straight as I can keep it.
I contract and hold the bar at the chest.

Basicly, Im doing like a bent over BB row, but off the cable. If we love this shit, we find way to keep on.

pumpster · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2007, 06:25:21 AM »

Trab speaks from experience; i've said this so has Vince Basile who whatever you make of him has plenty of experience and hates deads. Deads, rows anything that aggrevates the lower back aren't necessary.

Do not try to "work thru" problematic exercises, find alternative exercises or variations on existing ones, keeping the reps high & rests between sets fairly low, to keep the back warm. Such as:

-Hypers
-Rack pulls instead of deads, using high reps and/or cables or bands
-Back-braced lat work: in the case of rows instead of barbell rows t-bars, 1-arm DB, DB/BB rows while lying face-down on a bench, hammer rows, etc. Having the back braced not only minimizes back strain it also isolates the lats better.
-Forgo direct lower-back motions altogether, letting indirect exercises do the work - squats for example will work the lower back, so will cleans. Same rule applies, keep the reps higher.
-High reps at all times, with low rest times between sets to keep intensity up at lower weight and to keep the back warm.

Because once it's FU it's hard to get it back to normal, and direct lower back work can easily create problems especially when going heavy. Keep the reps high.

pumpster · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2007, 06:44:46 AM »

So a good back routine would include sets each or some workouts, involving:

-Pulldowns or chins
-Rows of some type
-Pullovers

Then add in some high-rep lower back work or cover it thru indirect compounds such as squats or cleans.

pjs · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2007, 06:50:06 AM »

It's like a festival of stupidity.

What is wrong with your back? What doctor diagnosed the problem, and what EXACTLY is the problem?

None of these internet experts can give you advice worth shit if they don't know the answers to these questions, and anyone who DOES give advice without knowing the answers to these questions has no idea what they are talking about.

pumpster · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2007, 06:54:03 AM »

Quote from: pjs on August 12, 2007, 06:50:06 AM

It's like a festival of stupidity.

What is wrong with your back? What doctor diagnosed the problem, and what EXACTLY is the problem?

None of these internet experts can give you advice worth shit if they don't know the answers to these questions, and anyone who DOES give advice without knowing the answers to these questions has no idea what they are talking about.

Chill on the hostility.

In this thread there's only been good advice other than one that is tongue in cheek. Advice borne of copious experience the hard way. The point is that these suggestions can apply to anyone with or without current problems, to lower the probability of future problems.

trab · « **Reply #19 on:** August 12, 2007, 07:13:17 AM »

Quote from: pjs on August 12, 2007, 06:50:06 AM

It's like a festival of stupidity.

What is wrong with your back? What doctor diagnosed the problem, and what EXACTLY is the problem?

None of these internet experts can give you advice worth shit if they don't know the answers to these questions, and anyone who DOES give advice without knowing the answers to these questions has no idea what they are talking about.

The only stupidity I see here is comments like yours.

Several have told him to find whats up w/ the Dr. Thats unspoken common sense.
If your back is not hurt, you have no idea what dealing w/ one is like.
I'd like to watch you load 3-6 42gal barrels of sand texture in a step van with a simple barrel cart and ramp regularly for years. Then go spray it. I doubt you'd last a morning.

Why the hate? He's got a lot of good advice here. esp the pics of supported row movements.
No need to quit lifting prolly. Again, do get more than 1 medical opinion on a low back problem.

Krankenstein · « **Reply #20 on:** August 12, 2007, 07:52:47 AM »

Quote from: trab on August 12, 2007, 07:13:17 AM

The only stupidity I see here is comments like yours.

Several have told him to find whats up w/ the Dr. Thats unspoken common sense.
If your back is not hurt, you have no idea what dealing w/ one is like.
I'd like to watch you load 3-6 42gal barrels of sand texture in a step van with a simple barrel cart and ramp regularly for years. Then go spray it. I doubt you'd last a morning.

Why the hate? He's got a lot of good advice here. esp the pics of supported row movements.
No need to quit lifting prolly. Again, do get more than 1 medical opinion on a low back problem.

Trab....the 'hostility' that I exhibit is borne out of Woo's basic ignorance when several (three or more) tried to give him advice on how to fix and improve his low back. I am far from an internet expert. Its my 'off-line' career. We gave him advice that Louie Simmons gives people. We gave him advice that Paul Chek gives people. We gave him advice that Charles Poliquin gives people. We gave him real-world experience answers from treating patients and clients. Woo seems to think that our advice is worthless. Why complain about a problem, be offered a solution, then say that the people offering the solution are idiots? Simple....easier to complain about the problem then actually do something about it.

As far as an MRI is concerned...due to cost and the fact that MD's, DC's, and DO's are taught that you work least invasive so most invasive, as well as least costly to most costly (thank you insurance companies)....I am sure that is why people have such a hard-ass time getting them. Would it be better to have one off the bat? Probably. But in some cases an MRI doesnt show what is probably wrong. If they were 100%....I am sure they would be in the first line of diagnostic studies.

trab · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2007, 09:17:31 AM »

Quote from: DrugFree4Life on August 12, 2007, 07:52:47 AM

Trab....the 'hostility' that I exhibit is borne out of Woo's basic ignorance when several (three or more) tried to give him advice on how to fix and improve his low back. I am far from an internet expert. Its my 'off-line' career. We gave him advice that Louie Simmons gives people. We gave him advice that Paul Chek gives people. We gave him advice that Charles Poliquin gives people. We gave him real-world experience answers from treating patients and clients. Woo seems to think that our advice is worthless. Why complain about a problem, be offered a solution, then say that the people offering the solution are idiots? Simple....easier to complain about the problem then actually do something about it.

As far as an MRI is concerned...due to cost and the fact that MD's, DC's, and DO's are taught that you work least invasive so most invasive, as well as least costly to most costly (thank you insurance companies)....I am sure that is why people have such a hard-ass time getting them. Would it be better to have one off the bat? Probably. But in some cases an MRI doesnt show what is probably wrong. If they were 100%....I am sure they would be in the first line of diagnostic studies.

Ok Fair enough, but give him a break. Fucked up back is no fun.
I know all to well about the Medical system. Demand that F'n MRI and get it. Make sure theres not hard dammage vissible. Yes MRI is far from perfect and most likely will not show his problem, but I have low back issues and no amout of money is worth not knowing as much as possible WHY it hurts.

Drs are far from perfect. Im not sure how much hes done to find the cause, but fact is many times, they cant tell us.
Then all you can do is train around it as you may. Thats what everyones tried to help him with.

I just see more value in helping others than putting them Down, like so many assholes on GB live for .

pjs · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2007, 09:56:39 AM »

My point is that advice for someone with a herniated disc is not the same as someone with a muscle cramp. It's irresponsible to give any advice not knowing what's wrong. You could cripple someone with a serious injury.

I'm also deliberately harsh because I'm certain that the OP has not been to a doctor, and has no idea what's wrong with his back. I would futher bet that there isn't much wrong (I've had low back issues that were not all that severe, and it hurt so bad I couldn't get off the sofa, much less try to figure out how to work around it); that he's got some soreness, probably from shitty form, and he's looking for an excuse not to deadlift, row, squat, etc. forcing the issue will help identify that.

But I'm a mean, old, cynical bastard.

pumpster · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2007, 10:00:14 AM »

Quote from: pjs on August 12, 2007, 09:56:39 AM

My point is that advice for someone with a herniated disc is not the same as someone with a muscle cramp. It's irresponsible to give any advice not knowing what's wrong. You could cripple someone with a serious injury.

What you're missing is that it *is* possible to give options, and that others reading this will apply it to their own situations. It's good general advice for anyone.

trab · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2007, 10:04:54 AM »

Quote from: pjs on August 12, 2007, 09:56:39 AM

My point is that advice for someone with a herniated disc is not the same as someone with a muscle cramp. It's irresponsible to give any advice not knowing what's wrong. You could cripple someone with a serious injury.

I'm also deliberately harsh because I'm certain that the OP has not been to a doctor, and has no idea what's wrong with his back.

But I'm a mean, old, cynical bastard.

Im a mean old cynical bastard too, I try to fight it

.

I agree.

NUMBER ONE THING - GET IT LOOKED AT BY THE Doc!!
But, Ive been thru the mill of our "Health Care System" and its a sorry ass business.
If that back has been hurtin long term, I dont care what anyone says. Get it X-ray'd and MRI'd.
Rule out what you can. Low back injuries are for life.