Author Topic: bicep stats and routine (Read 8454 times)

mass 04 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2008, 01:04:30 PM »

Quote from: pjs on January 11, 2008, 10:06:41 AM

Are you an alien?

Soreness has nothing to do with hypertrophy. Nothing.

So training to get sore is not why you are getting bigger. Maybe you would be even bigger than you are if you knew what you were doing.

mes is an a bsolute beast, and i agree with him if it causes growth or not I like the soreness. It makes me feel like I had an effective workout. Lift hard, eat good food and rest and you'll grow. Pretty simple,but it's the truth.

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 12, 2008, 05:57:50 AM »

Quote from: pjs on January 11, 2008, 10:06:41 AM

Are you an alien?

Soreness has nothing to do with hypertrophy. Nothing.

So training to get sore is not why you are getting bigger. Maybe you would be even bigger than you are if you knew what you were doing.

naw not an alien...
i just know that once my muscles are sore i know beyond doubt they are definetly broken down and thoroughly taxed....
so you can keep training out of your science books..
and ill keep lifting heavy ass weight and gettin sore.. which over the yrs have goten be bigget and kept my muscles dense and cut

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2008, 05:59:49 AM »

Quote from: mass 04 on January 11, 2008, 01:04:30 PM

mes is an a bsolute beast, and i agree with him if it causes growth or not I like the soreness. It makes me feel like I had an effective workout. Lift hard, eat good food and rest and you'll grow. Pretty simple,but it's the truth.

thx...for the shoutout.. man. you know the truth man...

SF1900 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 12, 2008, 09:10:28 AM »

I agree about the soreness. I like the way it feels, even if its only psychological

Bicep routine:

Cable curls: 3 sets
Barbell curls- 3 sets
Preacher curls-3 sets
Hammer curls-2-3 sets

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2008, 09:30:40 AM »

pjs is correct. doms is NOT an indicator of growth mesomorph. you have a great physique and you're very strong but your levels of doms had nothing to do with building it.

if you were to start doing 20km runs instead of your leg workout, you'd get doms too, but (assuming you already have reasonable legs) your quads would not hypertrophy.

haider · « **Reply #30 on:** January 12, 2008, 10:57:27 AM »

You guys insist that DOMS definitely are not an indicator of a good workout/hypertrophy. Is there any proof of this, or you're saying this cuz there's lack of positive proof?

pjs · « **Reply #31 on:** January 12, 2008, 11:47:30 AM »

Both, sort of.

What causes DOMS is questionable, but what people think causes it is not a direct cause of hypertrophy.

The more important way to look at it:

Can you get DOMS doing something that will not cause hypertrophy? Yes.

Can you train and not get DOMS and cause hypertrophy? Yes.

Those two things make it clear that the relationship between DOMS and hypertrophy is tenuous at best, and more likley simply non existant.

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 12, 2008, 03:44:20 PM »

Quote from: BEAST 8692 on January 12, 2008, 09:30:40 AM

pjs is correct. doms is NOT an indicator of growth mesomorph. you have a great physique and you're very strong but your levels of doms had nothing to do with building it.

if you were to start doing 20km runs instead of your leg workout, you'd get doms too, but (assuming you already have reasonable legs) your quads would not hypertrophy.

mmmm but my leg muscles. would get sore adapt.. to be able to make me run longer... as those those 20 k runs would serve to build leg and all round endurance..
im doing training for muscles.... and tearing my muscle tissue down for regrowth to be able to handle heavier weight..
for me my muscles grow....

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 14, 2008, 06:47:53 AM »

Quote from: mesmorph78 on January 12, 2008, 03:44:20 PM

mmmm but my leg muscles. would get sore adapt.. to be able to make me run longer... as those those 20 k runs would serve to build leg and all round endurance..
im doing training for muscles.... and tearing my muscle tissue down for regrowth to be able to handle heavier weight..
for me my muscles grow....

not 100% sure what you're on about here, but i'll give it a go...

20k runs will help you adapt (to that end) but they won't make you big and strong. in fact they will make you less muscular and strong over time. so, in that environment, doms or not, your legs are becoming weaker.

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 14, 2008, 11:10:54 AM »

but the purpose o the 20 k runs would not be to make them bigger or stronger.... it would be for endurance.. and after a while 20k runs would becomme normal and easy for the legs...
which is why i change up my workouts so i keep gettein sore... and im always getting bigger.. works for me

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 14, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »

Quote from: mesmorph78 on January 14, 2008, 11:10:54 AM

but the purpose o the 20 k runs would not be to make them bigger or stronger.... it would be for endurance.. and after a while 20k runs would becomme normal and easy for the legs...
which is why i change up my workouts so i keep gettein sore... and im always getting bigger.. works for me

wtf???

you said that doms IS an indicator of muscle growth.

i made the POINT that if you suddenly started running 20kms pd you would get doms, but definitely no muscle growth (unless you had fuck all muscle in your legs to start with).

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 14, 2008, 05:59:11 PM »

but im sayn 20k runs wouldnt.. be for building...muscle
the excerses i do in the gym is for building muscle.. so getting sore through those techniques build my muscles
... getting sore through 20 k runs.. are for building endurance not muscle mass

pjs · « **Reply #37 on:** January 15, 2008, 07:53:17 AM »

Which would mean soreness has nothing to do with growth.

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:30:11 PM »

no.. it all depends what you get sore from....
what kind of training

Emmortal · « **Reply #39 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:47:03 PM »

The only time I get DOMS is after a 1 week break I take every 12 weeks or so. Yet I continue to grow just fine without getting DOMS on a regular basis.

What PJ and everyone else is saying is DOMS is not a measurement of muscle growth, this is a proven fact.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #40 on:** January 15, 2008, 07:06:34 PM »

want big biceps? no more than 5-6 total hard sets a week. Period. My arms have exploded since I stopped trying to do more sets than a tennis tournament... Now I'll do 4-6 sets once a week with never more than 10 reps per set..

this past workout..

seated dumbbell hammers

60lbsx6x1
70lbsx6x1
80lbsx6x1
100lbsx2x1

then barbell curls

145x6x2 and that's it..

nothing on a stability ball..nothing cable... just heavy free weights. Your biceps get SLAMMED in heavy back routines. No reason to give them two times the work than anything else. Big biceps come from heavy back work and heavy deads..no amount of curls will give you big arms.

my arms are both over 18" now..not counting the fact that I'm a fat shit. I took a poll of all the guys I know with legit arms over 18" and 90% said they work bi's with only one or two exercises for a couple sets and that's it..the other guys didn't do bicep work anymore. Once I stopped pounding the hell out of them and gave them a chance to grow they grow like weeds and I now have stretch marks on them. $:-\$

but I finally broke the 18" mark.

stop making your lives harder in the gym then they have to be.

Emmortal · « **Reply #41 on:** January 15, 2008, 11:10:52 PM »

Yea, lower reps, heavy weights will do wonders for your arms, triceps included.

Redwingenator · « **Reply #42 on:** January 16, 2008, 12:44:41 PM »

DOMS is not a direct indicator of growth, but it is a means to an end. It does indicate that you worked your muscles in a way they are unaccustomed to, which is a common goal for a single workout (aka "shock your muscles" type of workout.)

The most direct way DOMS may indicate growth is the absence of it from increasing intensity of workouts. The lack of DOMS from progressively increasing intensity proves they body is adapting to increasing workload (increased strength, increased endurance, increased neuronal activation.)

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 16, 2008, 08:37:24 PM »

Quote from: Redwingenator on January 16, 2008, 12:44:41 PM

DOMS is not a direct indicator of growth, but it is a means to an end. It does indicate that you worked your muscles in a way they are unaccustomed to, which is a common goal for a single workout (aka "shock your muscles" type of workout.)

The most direct way DOMS may indicate growth is the absence of it from increasing intensity of workouts. The lack of DOMS from progressively increasing intensity proves they body is adapting to increasing workload (increased strength, increased endurance, increased neuronal activation.)

bullshit

it's not indicative or attributal to hypertrophy.

running 20kms certainly will give you doms if you're not used to it, but it just as certainly won't hint at anything anabolic, and as far as endurance adaptation goes, there are much more efficient and effective ways of building endurance in the muscles than suddenly going on a 20km run.

you can also induce a higher incidence of doms if you simply space the frequency of your bodypart workouts longer. will that mean that, because you're getting very sore once a week, this indicates sufficient intensity for growth? hell no. otherwise all these weekend warriors with mondayitis would be the strongest men on the planet.

doms does not = growth either directly or indirectly. move on now...

Emmortal · « **Reply #44 on:** January 17, 2008, 12:03:07 AM »

Exactly. I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp for people.

Redwingenator · « **Reply #45 on:** January 17, 2008, 12:12:18 PM »

Quote from: BEAST 8692 on January 16, 2008, 08:37:24 PM

bullshit

it's not indicative or attributal to hypertrophy.

running 20kms certainly will give you doms if you're not used to it, but it just as certainly won't hint at anything anabolic, and as far as endurance adaptation goes, there are much more efficient and effective ways of building endurance in the muscles than suddenly going on a 20km run.

you can also induce a higher incidence of doms if you simply space the frequency of your bodypart workouts longer. will that mean that, because you're getting very sore once a week, this indicates sufficient intensity for growth? hell no. otherwise all these weekend warriors with mondayitis would be the strongest men on the planet.

doms does not = growth either directly or indirectly. move on now...

Week 1: 4 sets of Bicep curls = sore
Week 2: 4 sets of bicep curls = not sore
Week 3: 5 sets of bicep curls = sore
Week 4: 5 sets of bicep curls = not sore
Week 5: 6 sets of bicep curls = sore
Week 6: 7 sets of bicep curls = not sore

My point if you took the time to actually read my post is this: DOMS can be used over time as an indicator to gauge the body's adaption to increased intensity. Increased adaption = more strength = more endurance = eventually hypertrophy. At no point in my senseless incoherent rambling did I ever remotely state that a single bout of DOMS indicates growth. Comparing running to training biceps does not help to further the discussion, it only perpetuates a discussion comparing apples to oranges.

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 17, 2008, 05:10:00 PM »

Quote from: Redwingenator on January 17, 2008, 12:12:18 PM

Week 1: 4 sets of Bicep curls = sore
Week 2: 4 sets of bicep curls = not sore
Week 3: 5 sets of bicep curls = sore
Week 4: 5 sets of bicep curls = not sore
Week 5: 6 sets of bicep curls = sore
Week 6: 7 sets of bicep curls = not sore

My point if you took the time to actually read my post is this: DOMS can be used over time as an indicator to gauge the body's adaption to increased intensity. Increased adaption = more strength = more endurance = eventually hypertrophy. At no point in my senseless incoherent rambling did I ever remotely state that a single bout of DOMS indicates growth. Comparing running to training biceps does not help to further the discussion, it only perpetuates a discussion comparing apples to oranges.

you were right about your 'senseless ramblings' and you should have left it there.

so now you're saying that adding sets to your curls adds more intensity

which is indicated by resulting doms

sorry, i really don't see how a sensible discussion can proceed.

have fun with your doms bud. just think, if you jump out of a plane travelling at a high altitude without a parachute, the resulting doms will indicate sufficient intensity to make your quads bigger than ronnie coleman's...

Redwingenator · « **Reply #47 on:** January 18, 2008, 09:08:22 AM »

Quote from: BEAST 8692 on January 17, 2008, 05:10:00 PM

you were right about your 'senseless ramblings' and you should have left it there.

so now you're saying that adding sets to your curls adds more intensity which is indicated by resulting doms

sorry, i really don't see how a sensible discussion can proceed.

have fun with your doms bud. just think, if you jump out of a plane travelling at a high altitude without a parachute, the resulting doms will indicate sufficient intensity to make your quads bigger than ronnie coleman's...

I tried to use an oversimplified example so you wouldn't pop a blood vessel attempting to comprehend my tremendously complicated point.

I surmise that from your hostility you know I have a valid point and instead of responding with serious counterpoints you have resorted to examples of skydiving.

BEAST 8692 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 19, 2008, 08:18:12 AM »

Quote from: Redwingenator on January 18, 2008, 09:08:22 AM

I tried to use an oversimplified example so you wouldn't pop a blood vessel attempting to comprehend my tremendously complicated point. I surmise that from your hostility you know I have a valid point and instead of responding with serious counterpoints you have resorted to examples of skydiving.

what's wrong with my skydiving example

if you land on your feet, the proceeding eccentric muscle contraction will be like nothing you ever felt before and is sure to give you doms.

N8 · « **Reply #49 on:** January 19, 2008, 12:15:36 PM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on January 15, 2008, 07:06:34 PM

want big biceps? no more than 5-6 total hard sets a week. Period. My arms have exploded since I stopped trying to do more sets than a tennis tournament... Now I'll do 4-6 sets once a week with never more than 10 reps per set..

this past workout..

seated dumbbell hammers

60lbsx6x1
70lbsx6x1
80lbsx6x1
100lbsx2x1

then barbell curls

145x6x2 and that's it..

nothing on a stability ball..nothing cable... just heavy free weights. Your biceps get SLAMMED in heavy back routines. No reason to give them two times the work than anything else. Big biceps come from heavy back work and heavy deads..no amount of curls will give you big arms.

my arms are both over 18" now..not counting the fact that I'm a fat shit. I took a poll of all the guys I know with legit arms over 18" and 90% said they work bi's with only one or two exercises for a couple sets and that's it..the other guys didn't do bicep work anymore. Once I stopped pounding the hell out of them and gave them a chance to grow they grow like weeds and I now have stretch marks on them. $:-\$ but I finally broke the 18" mark.

stop making your lives harder in the gym then they have to be.

I totally agree. My right is 18.25" & left is 18" cold and I don't work them more than 3 exercises a week with 3 sets on each. I train bi's and tri's together once a week and for bi's I only do bb curls, standing db curls, and one-arm db conc. curls on preacher bench. I just go as heavy as I can with very strict form. Don't rock or use any outside cheating motion. My reps are always around 8 or so.

I've found that if you are really blasting your back weekly you don't have to do much more for the arms to grow. Just a few exercises, lots of food and most importantly REST!!!