Is there anything original in the Jesus story?

[The Luke]

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

[Deicide]

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

The really cool beard...

[loco]

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

Let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail?

[Deicide]

Let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail?

Why do you even care; you are the ultimate faith head. Why would all the borrowing bother you?

[loco]

Why do you even care; you are the ultimate faith head. Why would all the borrowing bother you?

I'd ask you the same thing, since you don't even believe any of this stuff.

[The Luke]

Let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail?

...yep. With redundant duplication.

For example:
The total count of godmen who rose from the dead after 3 days is 34 (I think). Off the top of my head I can name several:
-Hercules
-Mithras
-Achilles
-Tammuz
-Horus
-Osiris
-Attis
-Dionysus
-Bacchus
-Alexander the Great (in his guise of a solar deity)

...all of which predate Christianity.

Before McWay makes a fool of himself here erroneously correcting me, I'm referring to the Mystery Religion versions of these gods (not the classical folklore version which often differs).


The Luke

[loco]

Let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail?

...yep. With redundant duplication.

The Luke

Every detail?  Cool!  Let's see you do it.   

[Deicide]

I'd ask you the same thing, since you don't even believe any of this stuff.

Since you claim it is all factual, which it is not.

[The Luke]

Every detail?  Cool!  Let's see you do it.   

...name one you believe to be original. Just one.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

To use a quip from Mr. T’s “Clubber Lang” character from Rocky III.

"I reject the challenge, because the Luke is no challenge. But, I’ll be more than happy to beat on him some more!!!"



I’ll give you 3:

1) Virgin birth (i.e. Mary had no sexual contact WHATOSEVER, when she conceived Christ. There was no supernatural whoremongering ala Zeus and his shenanigans; no coitus in birdie form with a dead guy with a faux schlong, etc.)

2) Death by crucifixion, not by chopping his balls off or being barbecued in the womb and resown in someone's leg.

3) His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, by a close associate.


Of course, that leaves YOU with the task of showing what alleged allegories these accounts were lifted and why, which (for all of your blathering) you have yet to do).

That is, name the religion from which the Jesus account was supposedly borrowed and give the specifics as to why it was used.

[loco]

...name one you believe to be original. Just one.


The Luke

I asked you above if you could take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail.

You said yes.  Substantiate your claim.  The burden of proof is on you.  Show us that you can do this.  You can copy and paste from other sources if you want to.  I want to see this.     

[The Luke]

McWay,

1) ALL the gods I listed are virgin births (in their Mystery Religion form).

They have to be, when the sun is "born" on the 25th of December it rises in the constellation Virgo (the virgin) also known as the "House of Bread" or "Beth-le-hem" in Hebrew.


2) ALL the gods I listed are either crucified on a tree or a cross by an evil tyrant (again I'm referring to the Mystery Religion form)

They have to be. When the sun "dies" at Easter time, it happens near the stars of the Southern Cross. Allegorically this is represented by the sun (Jebus) being transfixed upon a cross/tree/tau. The first celebration of this happened in 2,400 BC... the first Mithras Easter.


3) Not sure about the "30 pieces of silver"; but I believe most of the Mystery Religion godmen are betrayed by a male lover/friend/disciple/confident... I think Issa was betrayed for crucifixion on a Tau (t-shape) for a "handful of coins".


Again, I'm referring to the Mystery religion versions of these godmen... which may differ from the folklore version. Listing differences between Jebus and the folklore version of these gods is tantamount to claiming the movie ET isn't based on the Jesus story (which it is).


The Luke
PS... one point at a time, let's keep the posts readable.

[leonp1981]

Just posting for updates.  I find this stuff quite interesting.

[The Luke]

I asked you above if you could take multiple ancient stories, dating back before the time of Jesus, and with them piece together the entire record of Jesus as it appears in the four Biblical gospels, without leaving out a single detail.

...make a quick list of what you (a Christian) consider the most important details of the Jebus story and I'll explain their astrological significance.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...yep. With redundant duplication.

For example:
The total count of godmen who rose from the dead after 3 days is 34 (I think). Off the top of my head I can name several:
-Hercules
-Mithras
-Achilles
-Tammuz
-Horus
-Osiris
-Attis
-Dionysus
-Bacchus
-Alexander the Great (in his guise of a solar deity)

...all of which predate Christianity.

Before McWay makes a fool of himself here erroneously correcting me, I'm referring to the Mystery Religion versions of these gods (not the classical folklore version which often differs).

The Luke

Osiris didn’t rise from the dead; he remained in the underworld, That’s where Isis (in birdie form) has sex with him, producing Horus. That, of course, disqualifies Horus from being born of a virgin.

Now, my memory's a bit faint. But one of these guys is the result of Zeus humping a rock (so much for the virgin birth stuff again). As for Attis, enough said about his self-castration.

Of course, you have YET to name these alleged mystery religion and cite the details. Therefore, the self-fool making process is exerted on you.

[The Luke]

Osiris didn’t rise from the dead; he remained in the underworld, That’s where Isis (in birdie form) has sex with him, producing Horus. That, of course, disqualifies Horus from being born of a virgin.

Now, my memory's a bit faint. But one of these guys is the result of Zeus humping a rock (so much for the virgin birth stuff again). As for Attis, enough said about his self-castration.

Of course, you have YET to name these alleged mystery religion and cite the details. Therefore, the self-fool making process is exerted on you.

...didn't I warn you not to quote the FOLKLORE versions of these stories.

Dude, you are a tard.


The Luke

[Deicide]

Osiris didn’t rise from the dead; he remained in the underworld, That’s where Isis (in birdie form) has sex with him, producing Horus. That, of course, disqualifies Horus from being born of a virgin.

Now, my memory's a bit faint. But one of these guys is the result of Zeus humping a rock (so much for the virgin birth stuff again). As for Attis, enough said about his self-castration.

Of course, you have YET to name these alleged mystery religion and cite the details. Therefore, the self-fool making process is exerted on you.

And one thing all these stories have in common is that they are ridiculous; why should yours by chance not be farcical and invented??

[MCWAY]

McWay,

1) ALL the gods I listed are virgin births (in their Mystery Religion form).

They have to be, when the sun is "born" on the 25th of December it rises in the constellation Virgo (the virgin) also known as the "House of Bread" or "Beth-le-hem" in Hebrew.

Nowhere, I repeat, NOWHERE does Scripture claim that Jesus was born Dec. 25. That day was picked because the Roman Catholic Church wanted a Christian celebration to replace a pagan one.

Furthermore, sex with birds and rocks DISQUALIFY the offspring of Tweety and Slab from being “virgin births”.

2) ALL the gods I listed are either crucified on a tree or a cross by an evil tyrant (again I'm referring to the Mystery Religion form)

Where is this “mystery religion form”, again? To this day, you have NOT shown what this is or where it parallels with the Jesus account.

Repeatedly saying “It’s the mystery religion form”, with NO EXAMPLES OF SUCH simply makes you look silly (or sillier). That’s especially true, since I can easily list the forms of death that these other figures suffered (i.e. Osiris’ dismemberment, Attis’ self-castration, etc).

And, last I checked, Pilate wasn't deemed evil, per se. In fact, he proclaims that Jesus was innocent and washed his hands of the whole situation, deferring to some of the Jewish people to choose who would be free and who would be crucified.

3) Not sure about the "30 pieces of silver"; but I believe most of the Mystery Religion godmen are betrayed by a male lover/friend/disciple/confident... I think Issa was betrayed for crucifixion on a Tau (t-shape) for a "handful of coins".

A reference would be nice. Or, do you have mystery books to your mystery religions, which hinder you from backing any of your wacky claims?

Again, I'm referring to the Mystery religion versions of these godmen... which may differ from the folklore version. Listing differences between Jebus and the folklore version of these gods is tantamount to claiming the movie ET isn't based on the Jesus story (which it is).

Which is it, Luke? Do they differ or don’t they. For example, show the specific example of this “mystery religion” spin of Attis’ death BESIDES the one where he hacked off his nuts (out of incestuous lust for his own mama) and bleeds to death.

[MCWAY]

...didn't I warn you not to quote the FOLKLORE versions of these stories.

Dude, you are a tard.


The Luke

And what alleged consequence will befall me, O toe-munching Luke?

Will you continuing running your mouth about “mystery religion”, without providing one single example of such to back your pitiful claims?

[The Luke]

McWay,


Haven't you ever read about the solar-deity allegories used in Mystery Religions? You've got some Googling to do (or alternatively read Gandy and Freke's book).

It's always the same stuff:
-born of a virgin on 25th or December
-bright star marks his birthplace
-born in a cave/stable
-three kings attend his birth
-knows everything by age 12
-baptised in a river
-chooses twelve disciples (and a hidden thirteenth secret female disciple associated with a snake)
-performs miracles: heals the sick; the lame; the blind; raises the dead; feeds a multitude
-loses a shoe/foot/leg (Jebus has his feet washed)
-betrayed to the tyrant by his brother/twin/lover/disciple
-crucified (or similar variant)
-placed back in a tomb
-rises from the dead after three days
-ascends into heaven

...it's a basic astrological story detailing the cycle of the sun. The details are altered to make it acceptable to the local culture.

Hercules was born via Zeus schtooping his mum (FOLKLORE version), this is true ... but in the Mystery Religion version in which Hercules was worshiped as a solar deity (Jebus is also a solar deity) maintained that he was born of a virgin on the 25th of December etc etc etc...

Quoting the folklore version to show discrepancies is intellectually dishonest.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

McWay,


Haven't you ever read about the solar-deity allegories used in Mystery Religions? You've got some Googling to do (or alternatively read Gandy and Freke's book).

It's always the same stuff:
-born of a virgin on 25th or December
-bright star marks his birthplace
-born in a cave/stable
-three kings attend his birth
-knows everything by age 12
-baptised in a river
-chooses twelve disciples (and a hidden thirteenth secret female disciple associated with a snake)
-performs miracles: heals the sick; the lame; the blind; raises the dead; feeds a multitude
-loses a shoe/foot/leg (Jebus has his feet washed)
-betrayed to the tyrant by his brother/twin/lover/disciple
-crucified (or similar variant)
-placed back in a tomb
-rises from the dead after three days
-ascends into heaven

...it's a basic astrological story detailing the cycle of the sun. The details are altered to make it acceptable to the local culture.

Hercules was born via Zeus schtooping his mum (FOLKLORE version), this is true ... but in the Mystery Religion version in which Hercules was worshiped as a solar deity (Jebus is also a solar deity) maintained that he was born of a virgin on the 25th of December etc etc etc...

Quoting the folklore version to show discrepancies is intellectually dishonest.


The Luke

I know you got that mess from Gandy and Freke's book (which has been cut to ribbons by Biblical scholars, repeatedly).

What I asked was for YOU to post the specific examples of these alleged "mystery religions" and show the details supposedly lifted to make the Jesus account.

Instead you make excuses and do absolutely NOTHING to back your words. You ask for specifics, but when asked to reciprocate, you clam up.

And spare me the "intellectually dishonesty" crap. Until you deliver specifics, you do little more than regurgitate tired garbage that has been dismantled repeatedly.

Such as:

"-born of a virgin on 25th or December" - WRONG!! Nowhere does the Bible claim that Jesus is born on any date, corresponding to 12/25
"-bright star marks his birthplace" Wrong again. The stars leads the wise men to where Jesus was located.
"-born in a cave/stable" - You're flip-flopping again, which is it: cave or stable? (And what alleged "mystery religion corresponds to it).
"-three kings attend his birth" - And you cry about people not reading stuff? 1) The Bible NEVER states that just "three kings" attend his birth; the shepherds do that (lay off the Nativity scenes, please); 2) The wise men, however many there were, found Jesus when He was about TWO YEARS OLD.

I'll refute the rest of this mess later. It's time to eat and pump iron!!!

[The Luke]

McWay,


The Bible does give Jesus birthdate as 25th December... just indirectly.

The bright star that leads the three kings to Jesus is Sirius (the Dog Star) which is the brightest star in the night sky. The sun rises further and further along the horizon as the days get shorter leading up to the mid-winter solstice (December 21st), then suddenly the sun turns back and begins to gain strength (longer days).

The first day when a solar measurement will show this (one degree of reversal) is the 25th of December when the sun rises below Sirius at a point on the horizon indicated by the line of three stars known as the "Three Kings" or "Three Wise Men".

You just have to know the code to the allegory: Jesus is the sun, the story is an astrological allegory.


Seriously, isn't it suspicious that the Jebus story includes ALL these astrological symbols? In the correct order?

A virgin birth marked by a bright star and attended by "three wise men"? Come on guys...


The Luke

[liberalismo]

The only "original" thing that I can think of is his being named Jesus and being born in Nazareth.

[The Luke]

The only "original" thing that I can think of is his being named Jesus and being born in Nazareth.

...he was born in Bethlehem.

A town which never existed (Beth-le-hem is Hebrew for "House Of Bread" a common name for the constellation Virgo) till it was built to cash in on the Christian pilgrim tourist trade in the fourth century.

The name: "Iesous" might be fictitious too... it's not Hebrew... and using gemmatria code the name adds to 888 the end line total for the Greek number coding... "I am the Alpha and the Omega" ie: the letters in my name sum to represent the gemmatria code block in Greek.

Lots of the godmen have names with numerical significance.


The Luke

[liberalismo]

...he was born in Bethlehem.

A town which never existed (Beth-le-hem is Hebrew for "House Of Bread" a common name for the constellation Virgo) till it was built to cash in on the Christian pilgrim tourist trade in the fourth century.

The name: "Iesous" might be fictitious too... it's not Hebrew... and using gemmatria code the name adds to 888 the end line total for the Greek number coding... "I am the Alpha and the Omega" ie: the letters in my name sum to represent the gemmatria code block in Greek.

Lots of the godmen have names with numerical significance.

The Luke

I believe that there have been other people named Jesus throughout history prior to Jesus of Nazareth.

Also, even though the bible says that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, He was most likely born in Nazareth.