McCain will lead GOP opposition to ‘cash-for-clunkers’

[240 is Back]

Gee whiz, he didn't make this fuss a few weeks ago.  he waits until Drudge declares it DOA, and he jumps on the bandwagon. 


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) will lead Republican opposition to the popular cash-for-clunkers program in an attempt to block additional funding when it comes up for consideration in the Senate this week.

The House voted 316 to 109 Friday to pour $2 billion more into the program, which has proved so popular that it is running out of money before anticipated end-date in November.

-----

“My children and grandchildren are going to have to pay for these cars and we’re helping auto dealers while there are thousands of other small businesses that aren’t getting the help,” said Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) during an appearance on Fox News Sunday. “The role of the federal government is not to run the used car business.”

“We’re definitely going to debate it and I’ve heard that John McCain is going to stand up and try to stop it and I’m going to work with him every way that I can,” he said. “This is crazy to try to rush this thing through again.”

[Straw Man]

Gee whiz, he didn't make this fuss a few weeks ago.  he waits until Drudge declares it DOA, and he jumps on the bandwagon. 


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) will lead Republican opposition to the popular cash-for-clunkers program in an attempt to block additional funding when it comes up for consideration in the Senate this week.

The House voted 316 to 109 Friday to pour $2 billion more into the program, which has proved so popular that it is running out of money before anticipated end-date in November.

-----

“My children and grandchildren are going to have to pay for these cars and we’re helping auto dealers while there are thousands of other small businesses that aren’t getting the help,” said Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) during an appearance on Fox News Sunday. “The role of the federal government is not to run the used car business.”

“We’re definitely going to debate it and I’ve heard that John McCain is going to stand up and try to stop it and I’m going to work with him every way that I can,” he said. “This is crazy to try to rush this thing through again.”

is this guy serious?

this program is obviously "helping" a lot of people and his grandkids are already in their 20's

we're ALL going to be paying for a lot of stuff until the day we drop dead

this is a good program for average american taxpayers and plenty of small business will feel the effect

maybe his beef is that he wants more subsidies to other industries.

hmmm, I wonder what he has in mind?

energy companies perhaps?

[Soul Crusher]

is this guy serious?

this program is obviously "helping" a lot of people and his grandkids are already in their 20's

we're ALL going to be paying for a lot of stuff until the day we drop dead

this is a good program for average american taxpayers and plenty of small business will feel the effect

maybe his beef is that he wants more subsidies to other industries.

hmmm, I wonder what he has in mind?

energy companies perhaps?

No its not a good program Straw.  Its a complete farce and terrible economics.  Sure, you are helping a few people, but you are huriting many others. 

1. Why are we encouraging people to take on more debt? 

2.  People trading in clunkers will now have a car payment that otherwise did not have.  That money and payment is monies not going to someone else, like the local butcher, clothing store, etc.  So you help the big autos, but hurt someone else.

3.  Its wasteful and destructive of otherwise perfectly good cars.  These cars could be sold to teenagers, poor people, veterans, the elderly who cant afford a car payment or new car.  Additionally, these cars are being scrapped!  Why? 

4.  It hurts auto repair mechanics who would have been performing repairs on these older cars. 

5.  It hurts people looking for used car parts since all these parts are being taken off the market thereby driving up the cost of used auto parts. 

6.  You are hurting future sales since people will come to expect $4500 in the future.  Once the subsidy ends, people will not buy these cars.  So you may get a spike in sales now, but you will have a huge drop later.

7.  You are forcing me to subsidize my neighbors purchasing of car and going into debt. 

8.  You are manipluating the used car market since now people will believe all used cars are worth at least $4500 since that is what the govt will pay.  This hurts poor people who may not be able to afford $4500 for a car.

9.  Why not do the same thing with TV's, appliances, etc?

10.  We are borrowing this money from China for people to go into debt to buy foreign auto's.  If you dont see the insanity of this, you are hopeless.

11.  There is no environmental savings since 10% of the energy used by a car is in its manufacturing.  Additionally, the impact of the junked car, together with the manufacturing of the car, negate any environmental impact by getting a car with better MPG> 


DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU??           

[Hugo Chavez]

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU??           

no, makes no sense... I love toxic smog.  It's good for you.  I'm sure even TA agrees with that

[Soul Crusher]

no, makes no sense... I love toxic smog.  It's good for you.  I'm sure even TA agrees with that

Well Hugo, than I dont know what to tell you if you refuse to understand basic concepts.  This is the classic "Broken Window" fallacy that was written about 50 years ago, just with another face on it.       

"Cars For Clunkers" is awful economics to anyone who has a clue about the issue.  Its nothing more than a welfare payment from me to someone else so that they can go into debt that they probably dont need. 

Finally, the person is not really saving that much since the bank finance charges over the life of the loan and State Sales Tax will eat up the entire 4,500.00.

This is a bailout of the banks and auto companies under another name.   This is like the poor people who spend tons of monwey they dont have on scratch off lottery tickets and nothing else. 

[Soul Crusher]

no, makes no sense... I love toxic smog.  It's good for you.  I'm sure even TA agrees with that

HUGO - READ THIS CAREFULLY AND UNDERSTAND HOW THIS APPLIES TO TODAYS' GOVT SCHEMES.  THIS WAS WRITTEN OVER 50 YEARS AGO. 

From ECONOMICS IN ONE LESSON  by Henry Hazlitt
Chapter II, "The Broken Window"
_________
-
   A young hoodlum, say, heaves a brick through the window of a baker’s shop.  The shopkeeper runs out furious, but the boy is gone.  A crowd gathers, and begins to stare with quiet satisfaction at the gaping hole in the window and the shattered glass over the bread and pies.  After a while the crowd feels the need for philosophic reflection.  And several of its members are almost certain to remind each other or the baker that, after all, the misfortune has its bright side.  It will make business for some glazier.  As they begin to think of this they elaborate upon it.  How much does a new plate glass window cost?  Two hundred and fifty dollars?  That will be quite a sun.  After all, if windows were never broken, what would happen to the glass business?  Then, of course, the thing is endless.  The glazier will have $250 more to spend with other merchants, and these in turn will have $250 more to spend with still other merchants, and so ad infinitum.  The smashed window will go on providing money and employment in ever-widening circles.  The logical conclusion from all this would be, if the crowd drew it, that the little hoodlum who threw the brick, far from being a public menace, was a public benefactor. 
 
Now let us take another look.   The crowd is at least right in its first conclusion.  This little act of vandalism will in the first instance mean more business for some glazier.  The glazier will be no more unhappy to learn of the incident than an undertaker to learn of a death.  But the shopkeeper will be out $250 that he was planning to spend for a new suit.  Because he has had to replace the window, he will have to go without the suit (or some equivalent need or luxury).  Instead of having a window and $250 he now has merely a window.  Or, as he was planning to buy the suit that very afternoon, instead of having both a window and a suit he must be content with the window and no suit.  If we think of him as part of the community, the community has lost a new suit that might otherwise have come into being, and is just that much poorer. 

   The glazier’s gain of business, in short, is merely the tailor’s loss of business.  No new “employment” has been added.  The people in the crowd were thinking only of two parties to the transaction, the baker and the glazier.  They had forgotten the potential third party involved, the tailor.  They forgot him precisely because he will not now enter the scene.  They will see the new window in the next day or two.  They will never see the extra suit, precisely because it will never be made.  They see only what is immediately visible to the eye.*


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _____

Dont you see?  "Cars for Clunkers" helps out the dealers, banks, and autos, but hurts many others. 
 

[Hugo Chavez]

333, why are you arguing a program they killed after a few days   Also, maybe you should clue into the fact that it was never a program meant to benefit the economy.  I guess that went right over your head.  I'm sure there are economic arguments for and against but that could not have possibly been the main point so you tossing that shit at me as a rebuttal is pretty pointless on this issue.

[Soul Crusher]

333, why are you arguing a program they killed after a few days   Also, maybe you should clue into the fact that it was never a program meant to benefit the economy.  I guess that went right over your head.  I'm sure there are economic arguments for and against but that could not have possibly been the main point so you tossing that shit at me as a rebuttal is pretty pointless on this issue.

You have people all over the place falling over themselves to send billions more into this. 

This entire episode is a perfect example of why we are in the mess we are.  "Cars for Clunkers" is a small but great example of how and why our nation is so screwed. 

My point to you was that in the name of "helping someone", the govt actually hurts many others. 

This applies not only to autos but to everything. 

[Hugo Chavez]

You have people all over the place falling over themselves to send billions more into this. 

This entire episode is a perfect example of why we are in the mess we are.  "Cars for Clunkers" is a small but great example of how and why our nation is so screwed. 

My point to you was that in the name of "helping someone", the govt actually hurts many others. 

This applies not only to autos but to everything. 

Dude, the point of the program was not to "help someone"  It was to help everyone and not in a financial way, in a life, liberty way.  I'm not saying it was the best approach, it probably wasn't, but your analysis of this is pointless.  You're on the economics of it when it was never about that.

[Soul Crusher]

Dude, the point of the program was not to "help someone"  It was to help everyone.  I'm not saying it was the best approach, it probably wasn't, but your analysis of this is pointless.  You're on the economics of it when it was never about that.

You know what Hugo?  Your right. 

Why should I care about the facts, economics, impact, and likely outcomes of these schemes? 

If I have to pay for some idiot turning in a perfectly working car so he can go into debt he cant afford so what right? 

This is no different than subprime loans for housing, only for autos.  Same crap sandwich. 

Its truly amazing how dumb people are to buy into this nonsense.   

[Hugo Chavez]

You know what Hugo?  Your right. 

Why should I care about the facts, economics, impact, and likely outcomes of these schemes? 

If I have to pay for some idiot turning in a perfectly working car so he can go into debt he cant afford so what right? 

This is no different than subprime loans for housing, only for autos.  Same crap sandwich. 

Its truly amazing how dumb people are to buy into this nonsense.   

thanks for admitting you don't get it.

[Soul Crusher]

thanks for admitting you don't get it.

I admit that I dont understand how people can be so dumb as to buy into these schemes. 

But then again, look at who is in the WH actually supporting this mess?       

[Hugo Chavez]

I admit that I dont understand how people can be so dumb as to buy into these schemes. 

But then again, look at who is in the WH actually supporting this mess?       

I admit that you, Capt. Ahab, go down a check list of everything connected to Obama and then spastically copy and paste anything you can find to oppose it without thinking about it.

[Soul Crusher]

I admit that you, Capt. Ahab, go down a check list of everything connected to Obama and then spastically copy and paste anything you can find to oppose it without thinking about it.

Hugo - I will not be rude to you, but I have to say this.     

I made 10 seperate rational and economic based arguments on "cars for clunkers" (Which is what this thread was supposed to be about) and why it is a mess and you could not refute one on an intellectual basis.  Not one!   

This is like many other topics obamabots refuse to debate on the merits, because you cant.  You simply are unable, intellectually or rationally, to defend anything "The One" has done other than call names, blame Bush, or offer some other nonsensical pap.

 

[Straw Man]

No its not a good program Straw.  Its a complete farce and terrible economics.  Sure, you are helping a few people, but you are huriting many others. 

1. Why are we encouraging people to take on more debt? 

2.  People trading in clunkers will now have a car payment that otherwise did not have.  That money and payment is monies not going to someone else, like the local butcher, clothing store, etc.  So you help the big autos, but hurt someone else.

3.  Its wasteful and destructive of otherwise perfectly good cars.  These cars could be sold to teenagers, poor people, veterans, the elderly who cant afford a car payment or new car.  Additionally, these cars are being scrapped!  Why? 

4.  It hurts auto repair mechanics who would have been performing repairs on these older cars. 

5.  It hurts people looking for used car parts since all these parts are being taken off the market thereby driving up the cost of used auto parts. 

6.  You are hurting future sales since people will come to expect $4500 in the future.  Once the subsidy ends, people will not buy these cars.  So you may get a spike in sales now, but you will have a huge drop later.

7.  You are forcing me to subsidize my neighbors purchasing of car and going into debt. 

8.  You are manipluating the used car market since now people will believe all used cars are worth at least $4500 since that is what the govt will pay.  This hurts poor people who may not be able to afford $4500 for a car.

9.  Why not do the same thing with TV's, appliances, etc?

10.  We are borrowing this money from China for people to go into debt to buy foreign auto's.  If you dont see the insanity of this, you are hopeless.

11.  There is no environmental savings since 10% of the energy used by a car is in its manufacturing.  Additionally, the impact of the junked car, together with the manufacturing of the car, negate any environmental impact by getting a car with better MPG> 


DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU??           

Are you kidding. Everything you're written here is absurd.  No one is being forced to buy a new car.  Are you really concerned about auto mehanics and sales of car parts, etc..  Jeezus man.  You need to go LOOKING for stuff to get upset about.  

BTW - this money was already allocated in the stimulus package.  

[Soul Crusher]

Which was borrowed from China.

No one was forced to take sub-prime loans and look how that worked out.  This is no different than welfare paid by you and me to someone else to go into debt and destroy a decent car. 

They are encouraging bad behavior with "free money" that is borrowed from China and paid back by you and me. 

But keep cheering the idiots who support this insanity.  Maybe you will be happy when you have yuans in your pocket instead of dollars.         

 

[Straw Man]

Which was borrowed from China.

No one was forced to take sub-prime loans and look how that worked out.  This is no different than welfare paid by you and me to someone else to go into debt and destroy a decent car. 

They are encouraging bad behavior with "free money" that is borrowed from China and paid back by you and me. 

But keep cheering the idiots who support this insanity.  Maybe you will be happy when you have yuans in your pocket instead of dollars.         

 

lol - I just heard all your lame talking points on a clip from Hannity.

here's a program that is a direct benefit to average Americans and has true value and all you can do is piss all over it.

[Hugo Chavez]

Hugo - I will not be rude to you, but I have to say this.     

I made 10 seperate rational and economic based arguments on "cars for clunkers" (Which is what this thread was supposed to be about) and why it is a mess and you could not refute one on an intellectual basis.  Not one!   

This is like many other topics obamabots refuse to debate on the merits, because you cant.  You simply are unable, intellectually or rationally, to defend anything "The One" has done other than call names, blame Bush, or offer some other nonsensical pap.

 

oh stfu, I'll be rude to you because you're an idiot.  The only points I made, I stand by, which were primarily critical of the fact that you were not focused on the point at all.  So take your intellectual crap and shove it up your ass.  Enjoy.

[Soul Crusher]

lol - I just heard all your lame talking points on a clip from Hannity.

here's a program that is a direct benefit to average Americans and has true value and all you can do is piss all over it.

First off, I dont listen to Hannity.  He is horrible, but regardless, its the truth which you refuse to understand. 

Where do you think the money is coming from for the "stimulus bill"?   

Also, its not a direct benefit to anyone other than the car dealer and the govt and the guy who gets his welfare payment of $4500 from Straw, Hugo,  and myself.  If you want to pay for your neighbor to into debt to buy a car fine, but I do not since all that means is that he will have less money to use in your business. 

Giving out low cost sub prime loans was also supposed to be a good idea to get more people into homes.  Look how that worked out.  This is no different.   

What you dont undertstand is that when this subsidy ends, so will the demand since the incentive will not be there.  Auto sales will go down even further once the subsidy is gone.  So the spike we get now, will be followed by an equal slump in sales.

This is more three card monte from the govt.         

[Soul Crusher]

oh stfu, I'll be rude to you because you're an idiot.  The only points I made, I stand by, which were primarily critical of the fact that you were not focused on the point at all.  So take your intellectual crap and shove it up your ass.  Enjoy.

Which was what?  I dont remember the point you made, only that you kept saying I didnt get it.     

[BM OUT]

Here is whats amazing about democrats.They introduce a program that gives incentives to buy things,YET they never think to cut taxes to let people keep their money so they can buy more things.If they would have taken the 700 trillion from the stimulous and cut checks for each american it would have worked five times better then the stupid stimulous has.LET US KEEP OUR MONEY AND LET US BUY WHAT WE WANT!!!!

[Hugo Chavez]

holy shit   that's dense.

[Soul Crusher]

holy shit   that's dense.

Dude, the point of the program was not to "help someone"  It was to help everyone and not in a financial way, in a life, liberty way.  I'm not saying it was the best approach, it probably wasn't, but your analysis of this is pointless.  You're on the economics of it when it was never about that.


Ok Hugo - that was your post.  You say what it was not supposed to do.  I am asking you what it WAS supposed to do. 

[Straw Man]

Here is whats amazing about democrats.They introduce a program that gives incentives to buy things,YET they never think to cut taxes to let people keep their money so they can buy more things.If they would have taken the 700 trillion from the stimulous and cut checks for each american it would have worked five times better then the stupid stimulous has.LET US KEEP OUR MONEY AND LET US BUY WHAT WE WANT!!!!

no one is forcing you to buy anything

the incentive of 4500 combined with dealer incentives of similar amounts is FAR GREATER than any tax cut and it ensures the money is spent to buy a car

man this is simple simple stuff

[BM OUT]

holy shit   that's dense.

Are you talking about my post?How is that dense?The government gave incentives for people to buy homes.8,000 bucks.Home sales went up.If you allow people to have their money,they spend it FAR better then the inept government anytime.We have a 700 billion dollar stimulous that has done nothing!!!If they would have given an income tax vacation  and a vacation in buisiness taxes we would have seen the economy boom.Instead we see job numbers going down despite all the shovel ready jobs promised in the stupid ass stimulous bill.The government does nothing right.The clunkers program might have been a good idea EXCEPT its run by the government so it will fail.