Author Topic: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law  (Read 6505 times)

tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2010, 11:16:40 AM »
Even after being arrested?  How about being sent to Mexico?  It has happened before.
and weve convicted innocent ppl and thrown them in jail before as well, maybe we should just not enforce any laws then?  ::) there are ALWAYS...ALWAYS going to be problems with any law put in place...this will be no different...

show me where someone has been sent to mexico accidentally under this law...

No, but the Arizona state government seems to think they have one.  My argument is they don't and American citizens will suffer for it.
no they dont they understand the potential flaws in this law and are taking steps to minimize them...if you really believe what you just typed you havent been following this bill!!!!!!

And that makes it okay to pass more laws that can and will be used against innocent American citizens?
again any law can and will be used at one time or another in a way that it wasnt meant to be...by your logic we shouldnt pass any laws!!!!!!!!

tu_holmes

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2010, 11:17:42 AM »
As far as I know... You are only legally required to identify yourself to a cop.

You are not required under any circumstance to talk to them or answer any questions.

To those who don't care about what happened in the past.

George Santayana d.1952 said" Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." in The Life of Reason Vol.1, Reason in common sense 1905-06

loco

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2010, 11:32:59 AM »
and weve convicted innocent ppl and thrown them in jail before as well, maybe we should just not enforce any laws then?  ::) there are ALWAYS...ALWAYS going to be problems with any law put in place...this will be no different...

show me where someone has been sent to mexico accidentally under this law...
no they dont they understand the potential flaws in this law and are taking steps to minimize them...if you really believe what you just typed you havent been following this bill!!!!!!
again any law can and will be used at one time or another in a way that it wasnt meant to be...by your logic we shouldnt pass any laws!!!!!!!!

This a new law.  Why do you ask me to show you where an American citizen has been deported under this law?  Is it because I said it has happened before?  Well, let's look first at the Mexican Repatriation program.  Too long ago?  Okay.  Let's look here then:


Group says U.S. citizen wrongly deported to Mexico
Mon, Jun 11 2007

By Kemp Powers

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The American Civil Liberties Union sued the U.S. government on Monday over what the rights group said was the wrongful deportation of a developmentally disabled U.S. citizen who is now missing in Mexico.

ACLU spokesman Michael Soller said 29-year-old Pedro Guzman was serving a 120-day sentence in a Los Angeles jail for trespassing when he was deported to Tijuana, Mexico, on May 10 or May 11 for an alleged immigration violation.

The group's suit filed in U.S. District Court seeks to have the deportation order suspended and for the U.S. government to help locate Guzman.

Guzman, who was born in Los Angeles and lived about 70 miles north in Lancaster with his mother, could barely read and write, Soller said. He did not know his phone number and kept his brother's telephone number on a piece of paper.

But the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency in a written statement denied Guzman's deportation, which followed immigration checks at the jail, was improper.

"ICE only processes persons for removal when all available credible evidence suggests the person is an alien," ICE officials said. "That process was followed here and ICE has no reason to believe that it improperly removed Pedro Guzman."

The ACLU said Guzman told booking officers that he was born in California.

"This is a recurring nightmare for every person of color of immigrant roots," Mark Rosenbaum, the legal director of the ACLU in southern California, said in a statement.

The only telephone call Guzman made came shortly after his deportation, on May 11 and was received by his sister in law, Soller said.

"The last thing she heard him do was ask someone nearby 'Where am I?' and then the line went dead," Soller said. Guzman has not been heard from since and is assumed lost in Mexico.

Members of Guzman's family, including his mother, brother and sister in law, have traveled to Tijuana and searched shelters, jails and hospitals trying to find him.

"We're asking the U.S. government to take responsibility for finding him," Soller said. "The family just wants him back."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1118919320070611

Dos Equis

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 11:35:07 AM »
Another unfortunate part of our history.   :-\

Loco most Americans carry a driver's license or state ID card.  That's one pretty easy way to show proof of citizenship (assuming states do their job when issuing licenses).  In fact, whenever a person is pulled over during a traffic stop, the first thing the cop asks for is the DL.  

dario73

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 11:36:35 AM »
How do you prove to the cop that you are legal?

Provide the documents they request. What ever that maybe.

You keep spouting that any illegal can have a valid driver license. What ever that state may be, they need to follow the NJ model. In NJ, you need to provide 6 points of identification. Birth certificate, VALID SSI# (I know illegals carrying false SSI#, those are looked into by the NJ DMV), proof of residency, BANK ACCOUNT STATEMENT (in NJ is impossible for an illegal to obtain one).  It is very hard for an illegal to get a valid driver license in NJ since 09/11. That is why so many don't dare to drive. And those that do have no license, they have no insurance and a vehicle illegally registered in PA. The problem is that when they get caught they run off to another town, state or back home.

So what ever the law requires, PROVIDE IT. If you are legal it will be proven. If you are illegal, you will get caught. If you are not legal and don't get caught, oh well, not every criminal is going to get caught. It happens today with every other law in the books.

Like tony said, you are seeking a 100% fool proof way. There is no such law. But, at least this law is a step in the right direction. I hope it goes national.

240 is Back

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2010, 11:36:50 AM »
"I would be ok with it as long as it got cleared up..."


This is what it all comes down to.  Tony, who is in his late 20s and lives in TX, is a single guy with half-foreign0looking blood who knows there is a small chance he'll ever be accosted by police, but if he does, he says he won't mind getting cuffed and having his papers run.

That's cool.  If I lived in a place like AZ or NY or TX where illegals are seen every day, I would probably feel the same way.  However, we do need to recognize that Tony is saying he is willing to part with some of his liberties in the name of security.  Ben Franklin.

loco

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2010, 11:36:53 AM »
U.S. Government Detaining, Deporting U.S. Citizens
Tuesday June 10, 2008

Peter Guzman was scheduled to be the best man at his brother's wedding in July 2007, but he never made it. Immigration and Customs Enforcement had deported Guzman, a U.S. citizen and second-generation Mexican-American immigrant, as an "illegal alien."

Bettina Casares, a U.S. citizen and Air Force veteran, faced similar treatment in 2003 as she was assaulted and detained by Border Patrol agents while trying to return to the United States after visiting her family in Mexico over the Easter holiday. (Casares later filed suit, winning an undisclosed settlement.)

Guzman and Casares are among the thousands of U.S. citizens of Latino ancestry detained or deported annually by agents of the U.S. Border Patrol and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. As Jacqueline Stevens writes in The Nation:

    ... California Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren calls Guzman the "poster child" for an epidemic of detaining and deporting US citizens by ICE. Kara Hartzler, an attorney at the Florence Immigrant and Refugee Rights Project (FIRRP), agrees with Lofgren. Last year Hartzler's staff of six attorneys provided presentations and occasionally individual advice to more than 8,000 detainees in southern Arizona ... Hartzler testified, "The deportation of US citizens is not happening monthly, or weekly, but every day."

    ICE does not keep records on cases in which detainees claim to be US citizens. If larger trends are consistent with the pattern in Hartzler's caseload, since 2004 ICE has held between 3,500 and 10,000 US citizens in detention facilities and deported about half ...

    I called fifteen private immigration attorneys whose names appear on a Justice Department list of pro bono attorneys in Los Angeles and left messages asking whether they had clients in the past three years who were US citizens held in ICE detention for at least one month. Seven of them called back, each describing one to four clients who meet these criteria ...

    Since the state does not guarantee legal representation in civil cases, 90 to 95 percent of detainees lack attorneys.

Nor is the federal government the only offender. Local ordinances are frequently written in manner that encourages local officials and private citizens to indiscriminately target Latino residents, regardless of immigration status. The Hazleton Ordinance, for example, used a definition of illegal status so broad that it actually includes some U.S. citizens and legal residents. The Pahrump Ordinance targeted any celebration of Latin American heritage that permits participants to fly the flag of another nation. The proposed Bogota Ordinance would have prohibited the use of Spanish in advertisements and certain other printed materials. I could go on.

And the hostility towards "illegal immigrants" has also encouraged vigilantism against Latinos by white nationalists. As the Southern Poverty Law Center reports:

    The number of hate groups operating in the United States has grown to 888 — a staggering 48 percent increase since 2000, driven largely by anti-immigrant hysteria. And since the spring of 2005, some 300 new immigration restriction groups, including border vigilantes like the Minutemen and organizations that exist simply to harass Latino immigrants, have sprung up across the country. Of that number, 144 are listed as "nativist extremist" groups — organizations that do not merely seek to change immigration policy, but actively confront or harass individuals who they believe are undocumented.

Even anti-immigrant groups that don't necessarily identify as white nationalist organizations tend to make common cause with groups that do. In 2006, for example, the director of Border Guardians recruited neo-Nazis to rob, beat, harass, and otherwise intimidate Latinos. (One suggestion pulled from the email: "Discourage Spanish-speaking children from going to school. Be creative.")

This hostility--from federal and local governments, from hate groups, and from private citizens--is having a noticeable impact on the lives of Americans of Latino ancestry. As I wrote back in December:

    According to a new study by the Pew Hispanic Center, 64 percent of U.S. Latinos say that their lives have been made harder by the immigration debate. (About 75 percent of Latinos are in this country legally; undocumented immigrants make up only 12 million of the 47-million-strong Latino population.) And over the past year, the percentage of Latinos who say that they, their families, or their close friends have been victimized by discrimination has increased from 31 percent to 41 percent.

    These statistics are corroborated by FBI data indicating that hate crimes against Latinos have increased by 35 percent over the past four years.

These abuses underscore the need for calm, humane immigration reform that rejects policies of mass deportation. Even if the deportation of 12 million people could be justified on the basis of paperwork violations, it's almost certain that, given the abuses inherent in the limited anti-immigration statutes we already have, a more ambitious policy would have an even more drastic, and harmful, effect on American Latinos.

http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2008/06/10/us-government-detaining-deporting-us-citizens.htm

tu_holmes

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2010, 11:37:21 AM »
True... They do that because driving is a privilege... Walking down the street is not.

Cops ask for your drivers license because you have to take a test and be approved to drive... It's not about being "ID'd"

240 is Back

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2010, 11:37:49 AM »
"Loco most Americans carry a driver's license or state ID card.  That's one pretty easy way to show proof of citizenship"

Beach Bum, can you please tell the millions of birthers out there, that President Obama has a drivers licence, and has therefore already shown proof of his citizenship? :)

Soul Crusher

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2010, 11:38:34 AM »
Cops are not going to do that.  They have said time and time again what the most likely scenario for this is, which i agree with. 

tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2010, 11:39:21 AM »
"I would be ok with it as long as it got cleared up..."


This is what it all comes down to.  Tony, who is in his late 20s and lives in TX, is a single guy with half-foreign0looking blood who knows there is a small chance he'll ever be accosted by police, but if he does, he says he won't mind getting cuffed and having his papers run.

That's cool.  If I lived in a place like AZ or NY or TX where illegals are seen every day, I would probably feel the same way.  However, we do need to recognize that Tony is saying he is willing to part with some of his liberties in the name of security.  Ben Franklin.
so are you you hypocritical fuk!!!!!!

youre ok with the police checking to see if your sober or not...thats parting with your liberties isnt it?

240 is Back

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2010, 11:40:34 AM »
"Cops are not going to do that.  They have said time and time again what the most likely scenario for this is, which i agree with.  '

You can tell me that no cop in america is going to abuse this law?  HAHAHAHA

I come from a family with 7 cops in it.  I am well aware of the liberties they take, the stretches they make... LOL... "Cops are not going to do that..."

HAHAHA come on dude... you're a cop who can't stand the legal citizen kid on the corner selling dope, you don't use this as a chance to shake him down? haha

loco

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2010, 11:40:34 AM »
U.S. citizen's near-deportation not a rarity

A zeal to nab illegal immigrants ensnares many innocent people, including a Minnesota native.

By MARISA TAYLOR, McClatchy News Service
Last update: January 26, 2008 - 8:09 PM


FLORENCE, ARIZ. - Thomas Warziniack was born in Minnesota and grew up in Georgia, but immigration authorities pronounced him an illegal immigrant from Russia.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has held Warziniack for weeks in an Arizona detention facility with the aim of deporting him to a country he's never seen. His jailers shrugged off Warziniack's claims that he was an American citizen, even though they could have retrieved his Minnesota birth certificate in minutes and even though a Colorado court had concluded that he was a U.S. citizen a year before it shipped him to Arizona.

On Thursday, Warziniack finally became a free man. Immigration officials released him after his family, who learned about his predicament from a reporter, produced a birth certificate and after a U.S. senator demanded his release.

"The immigration agents told me they never make mistakes," Warziniack said in an earlier phone interview from jail. "All I know is that somebody dropped the ball."

Not an isolated case

The story of how immigration officials decided that a small-town drifter with a Southern accent was an illegal Russian immigrant illustrates how the federal government mistakenly detains and sometimes deports American citizens.

U.S. citizens who are mistakenly jailed by immigration authorities can get caught up in a nightmarish bureaucratic tangle in which they're simply not believed.

An unpublished study by the Vera Institute of Justice, a New York nonprofit organization, in 2006 identified 125 people in immigration detention centers across the nation who immigration lawyers believed had valid U.S. citizenship claims.

Nina Siulc, the lead researcher, said she thinks that many more American citizens probably are being erroneously detained or deported every year because her assessment looked at only a small number of those in custody. Each year, about 280,000 people are held on immigration violations at 15 federal detention centers and more than 400 state and local contract facilities nationwide.

Unlike suspects charged in criminal courts, detainees accused of immigration violations don't have a right to an attorney, and three-quarters of them represent themselves.

"It becomes your word against the government's, even when you know and insist that you're a U.S. citizen," Siulc said. "Your word doesn't always count, and the government doesn't always investigate fully."

Officials with ICE, the federal agency that oversees deportations, maintain that such cases are isolated because agents are required to obtain sufficient evidence that someone is an illegal immigrant before making an arrest. However, they don't track the number of U.S. citizens who are detained or deported.

"We don't want to detain or deport U.S. citizens," said Ernestine Fobbs, an ICE spokeswoman. "It's just not something we do."

While immigration advocates agree that the agents generally release detainees before deportation in clear-cut cases, they said that ICE sometimes ignores valid assertions of citizenship in the rush to ship out more illegal immigrants.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/14456137.html?page=1&c=y

tu_holmes

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2010, 11:41:53 AM »
Well personally I think DUI checkpoints are fascist and should be illegal.

240 is Back

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2010, 11:42:02 AM »
"youre ok with the police checking to see if your sober or not...thats parting with your liberties isnt it?"

actually tony, someone else just made this point-

When you drive erratically and are given a sobriety test, it is based upon video evidence of the police car cam on your ass driving - easy to fight in court if abused.

tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2010, 11:43:51 AM »
To loco and 240:

please show me one law you agree with that you dont have to sacrifice some form of personal freedom in order for police to enforce it...

and I am quite often mistaken for hispanic 240 I could very well be asked for proof under this law if they stopped me for a legal reason...WHICH IS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

read the law and tell me where you get they can pull you out of line b/c you look illegal!!! still waiting for you to show that

tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2010, 11:45:32 AM »
"youre ok with the police checking to see if your sober or not...thats parting with your liberties isnt it?"

actually tony, someone else just made this point-

When you drive erratically and are given a sobriety test, it is based upon video evidence of the police car cam on your ass driving - easy to fight in court if abused.

show me where the law says they can pull you over for looking mexican...the way i read it, its in the course of investigating something else and you come across reasons...

and thats not my point brain child the point is you have to give up some freedom for them to be able to enforce that law!!!!!!!!!

Soul Crusher

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2010, 11:45:46 AM »
This whole episode is turning into 240's 2010 "Palins' Baby" episode all over again.  

Ha ha ha ha.  

dario73

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2010, 11:46:13 AM »
Well personally I think DUI checkpoints are fascist and should be illegal.

Why? Are you an alcoholic?

tu_holmes

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2010, 11:47:08 AM »
No... You are being stopped and detained without cause.


tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2010, 11:47:38 AM »
Well personally I think DUI checkpoints are fascist and should be illegal.
im just referencing pulling someone over for suspected dui...apparently to 240 that isnt giving up any civil liberties but having to show your a citizen is...  ::)

240 is Back

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2010, 11:48:11 AM »
"and I am quite often mistaken for hispanic 240 I could very well be asked for proof under this law if they stopped me for a legal reason...WHICH IS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Watch the news, guys... there's a damn good reason mccain isn't sure it's even legal, Tancredo hates it, and Bill Kristol says legal innocents will have rights violated.  We'll see case after case of denied civil rights of legal americans.  Oh yeah, we'll see it.

And tony, you're young and surrounded by the illegal animals, I would feel the same way if I were you, so I can't fault you.  

tu_holmes

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2010, 11:49:56 AM »
Quote
im just referencing pulling someone over for suspected dui...apparently to 240 that isnt giving up any civil liberties but having to show your a citizen is...  Roll Eyes

Even I think they abuse that law to pull people over, especially in the middle of the night, but I don't see that as a real problem... if you're swerving or whatever, it just makes sense.

tonymctones

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2010, 11:51:02 AM »
"and I am quite often mistaken for hispanic 240 I could very well be asked for proof under this law if they stopped me for a legal reason...WHICH IS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Watch the news, guys... there's a damn good reason mccain isn't sure it's even legal, Tancredo hates it, and Bill Kristol says legal innocents will have rights violated.  We'll see case after case of denied civil rights of legal americans.  Oh yeah, we'll see it.

And tony, you're young and surrounded by the illegal animals, I would feel the same way if I were you, so I can't fault you.  
this law doesnt seem much different than the common law set in place by the SUPREME COURT!!! I could see some of the language needing to be tightened but thats about it...

still didnt answer my questions 240...

what laws that you agree with dont require you do give up freedom in order for them to be enforced?

and please show me where this law says police can stop you for no other reason other than looking mexican...

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Re: The Mexican Repatriation - Relevant to Arizona’s Immigration Law
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM »
To loco and 240:

please show me one law you agree with that you dont have to sacrifice some form of personal freedom in order for police to enforce it...

and I am quite often mistaken for hispanic 240 I could very well be asked for proof under this law if they stopped me for a legal reason...WHICH IS THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

read the law and tell me where you get they can pull you out of line b/c you look illegal!!! still waiting for you to show that

I never said the law will be used to pull over people just because they look or sound Mexican.  I said the law will be used to detain and even deport US citizens, after they've been pulled over for other reasons, simply because they look or sound Mexican.