Using deca for a long time..

[tstmaniac]

My liver enzymes are elevated more while on dbol..iv checked my enzymes while on winstrol as well...both times were at 50mgs...so in my experience dbol is more toxic

[MuscleMcMannus]

Here it is. You can clearly gain doing short cycles with "long acting" compounds.
 

This at a dose where many didn't even test positive.

Dude in studies like that a "Significant" increase in 1RM bench press could have been 5 lbs.     The article doesn't say anything about how much actual muscular hypertrophy took place, what specific increases in body weight and poundages were seen etc.  In other words a worthless study.  Maybe if you read the whole study and not the abstract it might give some more details.  But for argument sakes it's pretty worthless information in just the abstract. 

[Van_Bilderass]

Dude in studies like that a "Significant" increase in 1RM bench press could have been 5 lbs.     The article doesn't say anything about how much actual muscular hypertrophy took place, what specific increases in body weight and poundages were seen etc.  In other words a worthless study.  Maybe if you read the whole study and not the abstract it might give some more details.  But for argument sakes it's pretty worthless information in just the abstract. 

OK, whatever. Forget the study.

Which part of what I said earlier do you disagree with and why?

You don't think Deca works at all if used for short periods of time? It doesn't work from the first injection?

You don't think Dbol is a stronger anabolic than Winstrol?

You don't think gains are fastest at the beginning of any cycle?

You've made no argument. Let's hear it.

[MuscleMcMannus]

OK, whatever. Forget the study.

Which part of what I said earlier do you disagree with and why?

You don't think Deca works at all if used for short periods of time? It doesn't work from the first injection?

You don't think Dbol is a stronger anabolic than Winstrol?

You don't think gains are fastest at the beginning of any cycle?

You've made no argument. Let's hear it.

Every thing you say is "relative".  Yes dbol is stronger than winny.  But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass?  No it's not.  You get a lot of androgenic sides.  Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic. 

No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle.  Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive.  In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle.  And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in.  Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective.  It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca. 

What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout.  Well duh...........of course you will.  But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level.  After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame. 

[CAPTAIN INSANO]

Every thing you say is "relative".  Yes dbol is stronger than winny.  But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass?  No it's not.  You get a lot of androgenic sides.  Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic. 

No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle.  Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive.  In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle.  And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in.  Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective.  It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca. 

What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout.  Well duh...........of course you will.  But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level.  After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame. 

x2 I've researched Deca is best used at 12-15 weeks...

NPP on the other hand, gains can be seen after 1 week. Needs to be shot EOD, but make sure you have some caber/prami on hand to combat prolactin sides

[Van_Bilderass]

Every thing you say is "relative".  Yes dbol is stronger than winny.  But is it BETTER at producing solid gains i.e. fat free muscle mass?  No it's not.  You get a lot of androgenic sides.  Because although it is more anabolic it is also more androgenic.  

No I don't think "gains" are fastest at the beginning of a cycle.  Effects are not the same as gains unless you mean oily skin, acne, increased sex drive.  In my experience and THOUSANDS who cycle for years on end it takes more than a few weeks to build quality muscle.  And because most steroids have a half life it is right around the 3-4 week mark that sometihng like Test E really starts to kick in.  Yes deca may increase protein synthesis in the first week or two but "greatly" is a very ambiguous term and it's completely subjective.  It takes several weeks i.e. 4-5 weeks for many to really start seeingthe muscle building effects of deca.  

What you're saying is similar to you will build muscle the first time you workout.  Well duh...........of course you will.  But it will be at the microscopic barely noticeable level.  After months and months of working out do you really start to see your physique change and muscle being added to your frame.  

Longer cycles are better than shorter ones of course. But the laying down of new protein material is greatest when you introduce a new drug. It only makes sense. Since you mention training, yes it's exactly the same. After one workout you don't notice much but the response is the greatest when you introduce a new stimuli.

x2 I've researched Deca is best used at 12-15 weeks...

NPP on the other hand, gains can be seen after 1 week. Needs to be shot EOD, but make sure you have some caber/prami on hand to combat prolactin sides

Forums are great but they can also be dangerous. There are "truths" that are spread that are nothing but advertisements for new drugs you "need". I'm sure dopaminergics can be effective against some negative effects of Deca for example, but don't forget that these drugs can be a thousand times more dangerous than any steroid as well. Is it needed or is it needed to make money for the guy saying you need this and also happens to sell it? Did Arnold need "prami/caber"?

That nandrolone decanoate takes 4-5 weeks to start working but with NPP "gains can be seen within a week" is ridiculous. Same with TE vs Test Prop. Sure, longer esters may need higher starting dose to achieve same plasma levels since the drug is released completely over a longer period of time but these longer acting drugs start working immediately, just like test prop or NPP. Actually, TE raises plasma test faster than test prop (Emeric Delszeg actually taught me this as I didn't believe it but I checked the data and he was right). I also checked Schering's data on TE half-life (Testoviron literature) and they say something like just 2.3-4.5 days.

[WillGrant]

I think as bodybuilders etc we judge what we see in the mirror or see  performence in the gym and gauge this as how fast a drug works.

Mez regarding using deca for extended periods , nandralone was prescribed as a birth control for men back in the 80s I beleive..Now Ive known plenty of guys who have got there gf's wifes etc pregnant while on gear , was deca in there stacks ? who knows but if you want to get a girl preggers in "may" lower sperm count if Aussie GP's handing it out as birth control are anything to go by .

[Van_Bilderass]

I think as bodybuilders etc we judge what we see in the mirror or see  performence in the gym and gauge this as how fast a drug works.

Say you take a good dose of a long acting drug such as Deca or Test E, after having been clean for some time. How long until you can see changes on the scale for example? I know I can see and feel changes very quickly but I just asked a competitive bb who's been juicing for 15 years this question: how quickly do you notice a "big" change in your physique after starting Test E? He said about 2 weeks. Scale moves up even in the first week. Also said Tren causes a visual change within days, and I believe it's not just because it's a short ester but because it's such a strong hormone period.

From what I've seen and experienced, if a drug hasn't done anything in the first month it's not going to suddenly start working week 4 or 5.

I haven't seen too many people use Deca only but I remember one guy who did 6 amps of Extrabolin. One amp a week. He was really skinny to start, not a bb but a martial artist. There was a pretty huge visual change in those 6 weeks. For him this was a very effective first cycle.

[Meso_z]

is deca liver toxic?

[tbombz]

vanbilderass on an ass whipping streak yet again 

[WillGrant]

Say you take a good dose of a long acting drug such as Deca or Test E, after having been clean for some time. How long until you can see changes on the scale for example? I know I can see and feel changes very quickly but I just asked a competitive bb who's been juicing for 15 years this question: how quickly do you notice a "big" change in your physique after starting Test E? He said about 2 weeks. Scale moves up even in the first week. Also said Tren causes a visual change within days, and I believe it's not just because it's a short ester but because it's such a strong hormone period.

From what I've seen and experienced, if a drug hasn't done anything in the first month it's not going to suddenly start working week 4 or 5.

I haven't seen too many people use Deca only but I remember one guy who did 6 amps of Extrabolin. One amp a week. He was really skinny to start, not a bb but a martial artist. There was a pretty huge visual change in those 6 weeks. For him this was a very effective first cycle.

I wasnt disagreeing with you  2 weeks usely with test e but I never come off , always on 250mg cruise but within 2 weeks If I increase Il be fuller etc.

Tren A for me is with in 2 - 3 days , but interesting what you say about the ester and the stronger hormone because even if using the Tren Enan its by the end of first week so alot quicker than test E that shares the same ester