Author Topic: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people  (Read 13758 times)

tu_holmes

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2011, 08:48:32 PM »
lol the housing bubble was from the private sector, not the gov't.  You blame gov't policies LOL get a grip on reality.

The rich save their money, buy new houses personal items, they don't create new businesses with it or take any chance with their money to create jobs that is for sure.  How many new businesses have the rich started and helped created jobs in the past 10 years?  They have kept all their money from the tax cuts and created hardly any jobs, tax cuts are terrible!

Most corporations pay hardly any tax at all anyway, states try that to get corporations to come to their state.  Corporations are terrible and should be eliminated, only family owned businesses, no corporations, no stock market, no more jew tactics used to screw the average American out of his savings.





Actually government, private banks, AND people signing loans they shouldn't have were all to blame.

I think it's funny when people point at one group and say YOU'RE THE PROBLEM... When really, everyone had a part in it.

Too bad no one is willing to stand up and admit that at a higher level.

howardroark

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »
Yes funny math.  Income tax is what we were talking about.  You claim it was higher than it actually is, Prime posted the facts.  Then you came back with oh how about their investments.

I never claimed that personal income tax rates were higher than they are... Prime wasn't responding to my post. I simply responded to his post saying that personal income tax rates don't tell the whole story. The wealthiest earn a very large part of their income from capital gains. That income is taxed at 35% at the corporate level and 15% at the personal level, for a total of a 45% tax rate.

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Investments are a whole different thing, just like sales tax.  They choose to invest and have to pay tax on the money they make investing simple as that.  If they chose not to invest they wouldn't have to pay that tax.

Duh. But what do you do by advocating higher corporate and capital gains taxes? You are making it more difficult and less profitable to invest... so there will be less investment. Less investment = less economic growth = less prosperity.

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While were at it, why don't want talk about sales tax, property tax, state tax, and down the line and add that in as well, you simply diverted the discussion because you were confronted with the truth.

I didn't divert the discussion. I wasn't "confronted" with the truth, I already knew what the tax rates were. I simply pointed out that personal income tax rates don't tell the whole story.

And yes, why don't we start talking about other taxes? Maybe then you'll realize how terribly overtaxed Americans are.

howardroark

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2011, 09:11:08 PM »
lol the housing bubble was from the private sector, not the gov't.  You blame gov't policies LOL get a grip on reality.

No it wasn't. I'll let you in on a little secret: if we had a free market, then as soon as everyone would start buying houses, interest rates would rise and choke the housing bubble off. However, we don't have a free market. Central banks around the world kept interest rates too low for too long, which created all sorts of economic distortions including the housing bubble.

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The rich save their money

Saving is very productive. You put your money in the bank, what does the bank do with it? It lends it out, usually to businesses which create goods and jobs.

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buy new houses personal items, they don't create new businesses with it or take any chance with their money to create jobs that is for sure.

Warren Buffet, George Soros, Bill Gates, the Koch brothers... What do they all have in common?

They're wealthy and they reinvest their money in order to make more money.

JUST LIKE YOU SAID, THE RICH WILL TRY TO GET RICHER. How do they do that? By reinvesting in business. That is the ONLY way to get richer. That reinvesting creates material wealth and jobs.

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 How many new businesses have the rich started and helped created jobs in the past 10 years?

Millions of jobs were created before the housing bubble collapsed...


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 They have kept all their money from the tax cuts and created hardly any jobs, tax cuts are terrible!

See the above graph. It makes no sense for someone to just keep their money when they could earn more money by reinvesting it.

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Most corporations pay hardly any tax at all anyway, states try that to get corporations to come to their state.

There is a 35% national corporate tax rate. Then many states have their own business taxes which corporations have to pay. Then they also have to pay the business side of payroll taxes on the national level, as well as property taxes on the state/local level.

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 Corporations are terrible and should be eliminated, only family owned businesses/small businesses, no incorporating your business, it's terrible for the people, no corporations, no stock market, no more jew tactics used to screw the average American out of his savings.

LOL, why are they terrible?

reppingfor20

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2011, 06:06:34 AM »
I never claimed that personal income tax rates were higher than they are... Prime wasn't responding to my post. I simply responded to his post saying that personal income tax rates don't tell the whole story. The wealthiest earn a very large part of their income from capital gains. That income is taxed at 35% at the corporate level and 15% at the personal level, for a total of a 45% tax rate.

Duh. But what do you do by advocating higher corporate and capital gains taxes? You are making it more difficult and less profitable to invest... so there will be less investment. Less investment = less economic growth = less prosperity.

I didn't divert the discussion. I wasn't "confronted" with the truth, I already knew what the tax rates were. I simply pointed out that personal income tax rates don't tell the whole story.

And yes, why don't we start talking about other taxes? Maybe then you'll realize how terribly overtaxed Americans are.

The rich choose to invest, just like the poor and regular people choose to buy things thus paying sales tax, if you invest and make money you pay the tax, simple as that, just like a sales tax.  Bottom line is there tax rate is 36% federal income tax, period, no fudging the numbers with adding other taxes.  Everyone has to pay other taxes so let's not just advocate for the rich.  The rich can afford to pay these taxes as well.  The 15% you are talking about for investments really should be 36% the same for what they earn, it is another loophole, and you are still complaining about it being low LOL!

American's are some of the least taxed people in the world, and the rich still complain of high taxes, move to another country and see if you like their tax structure.

Invest, in the stock market?  It is a rich mans gambling floor.  The middle class and poor are often screwed over and know nothing about what is really going on, insider trading, and end up losing money in the end, see many cases of this people put faith in their financial adviser, while the financial adviser tells them to put money in stocks they know are going to go down.  The stock market is controlled by jew's and the elite, the middle class and poor should avoid it at all costs, do not buy this shit, save your money and use credit unions, boycott banks as they are another jew money changing practice, and you will have money after you retire.




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reppingfor20

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2011, 06:09:06 AM »
No it wasn't. I'll let you in on a little secret: if we had a free market, then as soon as everyone would start buying houses, interest rates would rise and choke the housing bubble off. However, we don't have a free market. Central banks around the world kept interest rates too low for too long, which created all sorts of economic distortions including the housing bubble.

Saving is very productive. You put your money in the bank, what does the bank do with it? It lends it out, usually to businesses which create goods and jobs.

Warren Buffet, George Soros, Bill Gates, the Koch brothers... What do they all have in common?

They're wealthy and they reinvest their money in order to make more money.

JUST LIKE YOU SAID, THE RICH WILL TRY TO GET RICHER. How do they do that? By reinvesting in business. That is the ONLY way to get richer. That reinvesting creates material wealth and jobs.

Millions of jobs were created before the housing bubble collapsed...


See the above graph. It makes no sense for someone to just keep their money when they could earn more money by reinvesting it.

There is a 35% national corporate tax rate. Then many states have their own business taxes which corporations have to pay. Then they also have to pay the business side of payroll taxes on the national level, as well as property taxes on the state/local level.

LOL, why are they terrible?

Most corporations pay no where near 35%, they have loopholes, that is why everyone is up in arms about the corporate loopholes that exist in this system, most end up paying way less, and sometimes nothing at all.  Money from banks is not re loaned out, banks are giving out loans like a jew gives out dimes, just doesn't happen much anymore. 

TEAM Nasser

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2011, 07:33:21 AM »
we were having a intelligent discussion, we were talking about federal income taxes, not state or sales tax or property tax.
 

Of course because the old argument by republicans is if you raise taxes, rich people will all the sudden stop working to make more money, not true, it is a old lie that is repeated.  In Clinton years this did not happen, etc etc, the rich always want to get richer no matter what the tax rate is, it's called greed.



it's called the Laffer Curve you fucking idiot.  Maybe you should tour all of the college campuses and lecture the econcomics professors on how tax policy is affected by increases and decreases in tax rates.  Lay off the MSNBC and start learning something for yourself about economics and tax policy.  If increasing the tax rate on the rich would solve all our problems it would have been done a long time ago.  It's just not that simple. 

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2011, 07:37:30 AM »
Actually government, private banks, AND people signing loans they shouldn't have were all to blame.

I think it's funny when people point at one group and say YOU'RE THE PROBLEM... When really, everyone had a part in it.

Too bad no one is willing to stand up and admit that at a higher level.

this.  again.  libs simply refuse to accept this as truth when it is blatantly staring them in the face.  If they admit this all of their arguments for "spreading the wealth" go to shit.  That's why they simply refuse to accept it.

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2011, 07:39:28 AM »
Most corporations pay no where near 35%, they have loopholes, that is why everyone is up in arms about the corporate loopholes that exist in this system, most end up paying way less, and sometimes nothing at all.  Money from banks is not re loaned out, banks are giving out loans like a jew gives out dimes, just doesn't happen much anymore. 



you're probably one of those people who believe that GE paid NO federal income taxes last year right?  because you read it online right?   

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2011, 07:41:38 AM »
Most corporations pay no where near 35%, they have loopholes, that is why everyone is up in arms about the corporate loopholes that exist in this system, most end up paying way less, and sometimes nothing at all.  Money from banks is not re loaned out, banks are giving out loans like a jew gives out dimes, just doesn't happen much anymore. 



name the tax loopholes that you're talking about too.  i don't allow libs to say "tax loopholes" in a conversation without identifying them first so that they can be addressed.

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2011, 07:45:49 AM »
The rich choose to invest, just like the poor and regular people choose to buy things thus paying sales tax, if you invest and make money you pay the tax, simple as that, just like a sales tax.  Bottom line is there tax rate is 36% federal income tax, period, no fudging the numbers with adding other taxes.  Everyone has to pay other taxes so let's not just advocate for the rich.  The rich can afford to pay these taxes as well.  The 15% you are talking about for investments really should be 36% the same for what they earn, it is another loophole, and you are still complaining about it being low LOL!

American's are some of the least taxed people in the world, and the rich still complain of high taxes, move to another country and see if you like their tax structure.

Invest, in the stock market?  It is a rich mans gambling floor.  The middle class and poor are often screwed over and know nothing about what is really going on, insider trading, and end up losing money in the end, see many cases of this people put faith in their financial adviser, while the financial adviser tells them to put money in stocks they know are going to go down.  The stock market is controlled by jew's and the elite, the middle class and poor should avoid it at all costs, do not buy this shit, save your money and use credit unions, boycott banks as they are another jew money changing practice, and you will have money after you retire.






also US has the highest corporate tax rates in the world

Coach is Back!

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2011, 08:43:26 AM »
The more I follow this thread the more amazed I am. Either JTsunami's (reppingfor20) education has totally failed him or he's just trolling, because every fact that has been brought to him he has refuted with utter stupidity. This is beyond naive. My 14 year literally understands business better than this kid. I can't believe ANYONE could possibly not see this is irrational thinking with no commonsense taken into consideration.

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2011, 11:06:22 AM »
The rich choose to invest, just like the poor and regular people choose to buy things thus paying sales tax, if you invest and make money you pay the tax, simple as that, just like a sales tax.  Bottom line is there tax rate is 36% federal income tax, period, no fudging the numbers with adding other taxes.  Everyone has to pay other taxes so let's not just advocate for the rich.  The rich can afford to pay these taxes as well.  The 15% you are talking about for investments really should be 36% the same for what they earn, it is another loophole, and you are still complaining about it being low LOL!

American's are some of the least taxed people in the world, and the rich still complain of high taxes, move to another country and see if you like their tax structure.

Invest, in the stock market?  It is a rich mans gambling floor.  The middle class and poor are often screwed over and know nothing about what is really going on, insider trading, and end up losing money in the end, see many cases of this people put faith in their financial adviser, while the financial adviser tells them to put money in stocks they know are going to go down.  The stock market is controlled by jew's and the elite, the middle class and poor should avoid it at all costs, do not buy this shit, save your money and use credit unions, boycott banks as they are another jew money changing practice, and you will have money after you retire.






also if you think that the middle class will not be negatively effected by the repeal of the Bush tax cuts you're quite simply ignorant.

The Showstoppa

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2011, 11:07:43 AM »
JTsuckinsalami is nothing but a troll.  You guys are wasting your time.  Best to just ignore and let him go away.

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2011, 11:08:15 AM »
The more I follow this thread the more amazed I am. Either JTsunami's (reppingfor20) education has totally failed him or he's just trolling, because every fact that has been brought to him he has refuted with utter stupidity. This is beyond naive. My 14 year literally understands business better than this kid. I can't believe ANYONE could possibly not see this is irrational thinking with no commonsense taken into consideration.

it's called being brainwashed

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2011, 11:08:51 AM »
JTsuckinsalami is nothing but a troll.  You guys are wasting your time.  Best to just ignore and let him go away.

i absolutely believe that he believes the shit he posts.

Primemuscle

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
Unemployment was pretty low before the housing bubble blew up. And what created the housing bubble? Government policies. Hmmmm...

Which goverment polices would those be exactly?

Crazy me, I thought it was deregulation of the banking industry which permitted banks to write and sell all those sub-pime mortgages. The same sub-prime mortgages that created the housing bubble and then the crash.


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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2011, 12:37:23 PM »
Which goverment polices would those be exactly?

Crazy me, I thought it was deregulation of the banking industry which permitted banks to write and sell all those sub-pime mortgages. The same sub-prime mortgages that created the housing bubble and then the crash.



Are you kidding?  Really?   Tell me you are joking. 

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2011, 01:12:56 PM »
Are you kidding?  Really?   Tell me you are joking. 

he's not joking.  this is the willful ignorance that i am talking about. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2011, 01:14:39 PM »
Quote
• 2000, Commodity Futures Modernization Act – Passed with support from the Clinton
Administration, including Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers, and bi-partisan support in
Congress. The bill prevented the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from regulating
most over-the-counter derivative contracts, including credit default swaps.
• 2004, Voluntary Regulation – The SEC proposes a system of voluntary regulation under
the Consolidated Supervised Entities program, allowing investment banks to hold less capital
in reserve and increase leverage.
• 2007, Subprime Mortgage Crisis – Defaults on subprime loans send shockwaves
throughout the secondary mortgage market and the entire financial system.

Quote
Repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act
 
Provisions of the Glass-Steagall Act that prohibit a bank holding company from owning other financial companies were repealed on November 12, 1999, by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act.[49][50]
 
The repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between Wall Street investment banks and depository banks. This repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2010.


Late-2000s financial crisis
 
The late-2000s financial crisis is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s. It was triggered by a liquidity shortfall in the United States banking system and has resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments, and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market has also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged vacancies. It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, and a significant decline in economic activity, leading to a severe global economic recession in 2008.
 
The collapse of the U.S. housing bubble, which peaked in 2006, caused the values of securities tied to U.S. real estate pricing to plummet, damaging financial institutions globally. Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period, as credit tightened and international trade declined.Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st-century financial markets. Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion and institutional bailouts.
 
There is some debate as to what role the repeal of Glass–Steagall had on the late 2000s financial crisis.
 
Although there have been aftershocks, the financial crisis itself ended sometime between late 2008 and mid-2009. While many causes for the financial crisis have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts, the United States Senate issuing the Levin–Coburn Report found “that the crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street.”
 
Both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2011, 01:15:56 PM »
Incredible.   You completely left out the CRA, Fannie and Freddy, the Federal Reserve making the money available via low rates, etc.   

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2011, 01:21:37 PM »


let me ask you something.  do you think all this was done so that bankers could get rich?  or do you think it was because the Clinton administration wanted to help lower income families buy homes? 

Primemuscle

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2011, 01:28:55 PM »
Forbes
April 2010

It would appear that although the U.S. has one of the highest tax burden in the world, big corporations aren't paying it.

Quote
HOUSTON -- As you work on your taxes this month, here's something to raise your hackles: Some of the world's biggest, most profitable corporations enjoy a far lower tax rate than you do--that is, if they pay taxes at all.

The most egregious example is General Electric ( GE - news - people ). Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Avoiding taxes is nothing new for General Electric. In 2008 its effective tax rate was 5.3%; in 2007 it was 15%. The marginal U.S. corporate rate is 35%.

How did this happen? It's complicated. GE's tax return is the largest the IRS deals with each year--some 24,000 pages if printed out. Its annual report filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission weighs in at more than 700 pages.

Inside you'll find that GE in effect consists of two divisions: General Electric Capital and everything else. The everything else--maker of engines, power plants, TV shows and the like--would have paid a 22% tax rate if it was a standalone company.

It's GE Capital that keeps the overall tax bill so low. Over the last two years, GE Capital has displayed an uncanny ability to lose lots of money in the U.S. (posting a $6.5 billion loss in 2009), and make lots of money overseas (a $4.3 billion gain). Not only do the U.S. losses balance out the overseas gains, but GE can defer taxes on that overseas income indefinitely. The timing of big deductions for depreciation in GE Capital's equipment leasing business also provides a tax benefit, as will loan losses left over from the credit crunch.

But it's the tax benefit of overseas operations that is the biggest reason why multinationals end up with lower tax rates than the rest of us. It only makes sense that multinationals "put costs in high-tax countries and profits in low-tax countries," says Scott Hodge, president of the Tax Foundation. Those low-tax countries are almost anywhere but the U.S. "When you add in state taxes, the U.S. has the highest tax burden among industrialized countries," says Hodge. In contrast, China's rate is just 25%; Ireland's is 12.5%.

Corporations are getting smarter, not just about doing more business in low-tax countries, but in moving their more valuable assets there as well. That means setting up overseas subsidiaries, then transferring to them ownership of long-lived, often intangible but highly profitable assets, like patents and software.

As a result, figures tax economist Martin Sullivan, companies are keeping some $28 billion a year out of the clutches of the U.S. Treasury by engaging in so-called transfer pricing arrangements, where, say, Microsoft's ( MSFT - news - people ) overseas subsidiaries license software to its U.S. parent company in return for handsome royalties (that get taxed at those lower overseas rates).

bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2011, 01:44:43 PM »
Forbes
April 2010

It would appear that although the U.S. has one of the highest tax burden in the world, big corporations aren't paying it.
 

jesus fucking H christ this shit makes me so fucking mad i want to throw my fucking computer out of a fucking window. 

this is a prime example of some fucking hack liberal journalist trying to make a name for himself among a group of liberal fucking lemmings who only want to read what they want to hear.

this author has ZERO idea of how to read a financial statement and chooses to disseminate misinformation to his following of willfully ignorant and this article has had holes blown in it the size of minivans since it made it to press.

the sad fact is that he saw that GE had a Deferred tax asset on their books for 2010 and some fucking idiot thinks that deferred tax asset means that they got a refund. 


bears

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2011, 01:47:49 PM »
Did GE get a $3.2 billion tax refund? No.

Did GE pay U.S. income taxes in 2010? Yes, it paid estimated taxes for 2010, and also made payments for previous years. Think of it as your having paid withholding taxes on your salary in 2010, and sending the IRS a check on April 15, 2010, covering your balance owed for 2009.

Will GE ultimately pay U.S. income taxes for 2010? After much to-ing and fro-ing -- the company says it hasn't completed its 2010 tax return -- GE now says that it will pay tax. (For more on GE's tax strategies, see GE's taxes: A case study)

Why should you care about this? Because we all have a stake in how this plays out. Thanks to the uproar over GE, we now risk ending up with legislation that targets GE but produces all sorts of unintended consequences. Public rage can make for bad law. For example, the Alternative Minimum Tax was adopted in 1969 amid an uproar generated by a Treasury report that said 155 wealthy families had paid no income tax. But the bill, badly designed and badly amended, has morphed into a mess that affects millions of middle- and upper-middle-class families, but not the really-high-income tax-minimizing families. They're not affected because the AMT fades out of the picture for families with income of $600,000 and up.

Now, let's take it from the top, slowly, and sort this all out.

GE's 2010 financial statements reported a $3.25 billion U.S. "current tax benefit," which is where the Times, which declined comment, got its $3.2 billion "tax benefit" number. But a company's "current tax" number has nothing to do with what it actually pays in taxes for a given year. "Current tax benefit" and "current tax expense" are so-called financial reporting numbers, used to calculate the profits a company reports to shareholders.

They have nothing to do with what a company sends to (or receives from) the IRS. "Any correlation between the 'current tax expense' and the current tax payable is likely coincidental," says a leading tax authority, Ed Outslay, Deloitte/Michael Licata professor of accounting at Michigan State University's business school.

After repeated conversations with GE -- remember, we've been working on this story too -- we can finally give you reasonably definitive answers.

The company says that it's not getting any refund for 2010 -- validating Outslay's analysis. Its 2010 tax situation? "We expect to have a small U.S. income tax liability for 2010," GE chief spokesman Gary Sheffer told us. How big is small? GE declined to say. The number is unlikely to ever be disclosed unless GE goes public with it, or is forced to do so.

THIS IS A DECENT RUNDOWN OF WHAT THE AUTHOR GOT WRONG

Primemuscle

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Re: Unamerican, traitor's tax evading people
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2011, 02:07:17 PM »
Actually government, private banks, AND people signing loans they shouldn't have were all to blame.

I think it's funny when people point at one group and say YOU'RE THE PROBLEM... When really, everyone had a part in it.

Too bad no one is willing to stand up and admit that at a higher level.

Exactly! Mortgage lenders did no force folks to borrow more than they could repay. It was this easy money that drove the housing market up and up. Not to forget that many people's housing expectations have become completely unrealistic considering their income level. The average house is considerably larger with many more amenities than houses of the past had. Just look at post WWII housing verses houses built recently. The difference is amazing. On the other hand, motgage brokers knew they were making bad loans. However, their motivation was the commision. Goverment regulators should have seen the "writing on the wall" since history often repeats itself....remember the Savings and Loan crisis of the 1980's and 1990's.