Author Topic: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush  (Read 7892 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »
dont fucking post another youtube video, 33.  please.

i took the time to point out why all 4 of your main points are flawed.  you aren't going to respond to them.?



Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 09:46:44 AM »
dont fucking post another youtube video, 33.  please.

i took the time to point out why all 4 of your main points are flawed.  you aren't going to respond to them.?




You are a lying sack of shit and a pathological liar and a fraud.   You are a dildo and a gag ball for obama. 

So fucking sad what you have become, a trolling liar. 


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Human Events Blog

No, Operation Wide Receiver Does Not Excuse Obama Or Holder

By:John Hayward
10/7/2011 03:59 PM




 
After a long period of resolutely ignoring Operation Fast and Furious, the bulk of the mainstream media has been dragged into covering the “gun walking” scandal by the charges of perjury directed at Attorney General Eric Holder.  Flailing around for something they can spin, liberals have suddenly become very interested in Operation Wide Receiver, a gun walking program from the Bush era.  Longtime observers of the Obama scandal have long been camped out on Operation Wide Receiver’s front porch with a bowl of Halloween candy, knowing it was only a matter of time before the Left showed up.
 
The L.A. Times, which has provided excellent coverage of the rapidly evolving Fast and Furious scandal, is curiously negligent in explaining Wide Receiver to its readers:
 
The Times reported from Washington on Monday that the Bush administration managed a program similar to Fast and Furious in 2006-07. Mexican President Felipe Calderon took office in December 2006.
 
In that program, dubbed Wide Receiver, weapons were allowed into Mexico, just as later occurred in Operation Fast and Furious in 2009 and 2010, The Times reported. About 2,000 weapons were "walked" in Mexico and later showed up at scores of crime scenes, Mexican officials have said.
 
The Monday report from the L.A. Times didn’t really say anything about Wide Receiver at all, beyond mentioning its name:
 
In the emails that the department turned over to congressional investigators, Justice Department officials last October discussed both the Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation in Phoenix and a separate investigation from 2006 and 2007 called Operation Wide Receiver. In Wide Receiver, which took place in Tucson, firearms also were acquired by illegal straw purchasers and lost in Mexico, the emails say.
 
The Associated Press made a much more explicit attempt to claim Wide Receiver was essentially identical to Fast and Furious, meaning the Bush Administration was walking guns just like Obama:
 
The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers — the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.
 
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and other Republicans have been hammering the Obama Justice Department over the practice known as "letting guns walk." The congressional target has been Operation Fast and Furious, which was designed to track small-time gun buyers at several Phoenix-area gun shops up the chain to make cases against major weapons traffickers. In the process, federal agents lost track of many of the more than 2,000 guns linked to the operation.
 
When Bush, a Republican, was president, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Tucson, Ariz., used a similar enforcement tactic in a program it called Operation Wide Receiver. The fact that there were two such ATF investigations years apart in separate administrations raises the possibility that agents in still other cases may have allowed guns to "walk."
 
The Washington Post packs its spin right into the headline: “Earlier ATF Gun Operation ‘Wide Receiver’ Used Same Tactics As ‘Fast and Furious.’”
 
Operation Wide Receiver came to light when Rep. Darryl Issa (R-Calif.) and Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) released new documents and e-mails this week which they said showed that although Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. told Congress in May that he had just learned about Fast and Furious, he had known for about 10 months.
 
That alleged discrepancy led some Republican lawmakers to accuse Holder of perjury. They have pounded on Holder over Fast and Furious, in some cases calling for his resignation.Their investigation of the program has led to the reassignment of the former ATF director and others, and the resignation of the U.S. attorney in Arizona.
 
But Wide Receiver, conducted in the Bush administration, has not received a lot of attention. According to Justice spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler, some of the e-mails used in the attempt to discredit Holder were referring to the Tucson case, Wide Receiver.
 
More specifically, Schmaler said that when the e-mails mention “guns walking,” they are referring to the 2006-07 Tucson case, Operation Wide Receiver. Schmaler said neither of the officials knew about guns walking in the Fast and Furious case.
 
(Emphasis mine.)  Of course, “some” emails referring to Wide Receiver has absolutely no logical bearing on other emails referring specifically to Fast and Furious.  I’m sure the next Republican Attorney General can count on the same kind of helpful spin and misdirection from the Washington Post.
 
Courtesy of Jim Shepherd at The Outdoor Wire, with a hat tip to Bob Owens at Pajamas Media, here are a few things the media is curiously forgetting to tell audiences about Operation Wide Receiver, which ran during the Bush years of 2006 and 2007 – and was indeed a bad idea, but not a monstrous horror like the Obama gun walking programs:
 
1. Wide Receiver was less than one-quarter the size of Fast and Furious, involving about 500 guns.  About 450 guns made it across the border into Mexico.  Not only was Fast and Furious much larger, but it was only one of several gun walking operations launched by the Obama Administration.  In fact, intrepid CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson says she has “found allegations of gun walking in at least 10 cities in five states.”
 
2. Unlike the Obama Administration programs, there actually was a serious attempt made to track the Wide Receiver weapons.  Some of them were fitted with radio tracking devices.  The cartel gun buyers figured out how to defeat the tracking system by driving around in circles, until the tracking planes ran out of fuel and were forced to return to base.  Also, some of the tracking devices were damaged when ATF agents improperly inserted them into the guns. 

By contrast, one of the signature features of Obama gun walking is that absolutely no effort to track the guns was ever in place.  ATF agents have testified they were expressly ordered to stand down when they tried to follow the cartel straw purchasers.  Whatever mistakes were made in Operation Wide Receiver, there’s no way to argue that Operation Fast and Furious was not much worse… because they should have learned from what happened in Wide Receiver.
 
3. And by “they” I mean “Special Agent In Charge Bill Newell.”  That’s right – the same Phoenix ATF supervisor who became famous during the investigation of Fast and Furious was involved with Operation Wide Receiver.  He’s also the ATF agent that originally told Congress that he mentioned gun walking in a roundabout way to his old buddy Kevin O’Reilly of the White House national security staff, who he communicates with maybe three or four times a year… only to be exposed as a liar when the same document dump that put AG Holder in jeopardy of perjury charges revealed a constant stream of emails between Newell and O’Reilly, lasting over a month. 
 
4. Operation Wide Receiver was, by all accounts, shut down after its weapons dropped off the grid, and the ATF realized it had blundered.  Operation Fast and Furious was only shut down because two of its weapons were discovered at the scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s murder.  According to congressional testimony, the Terry shooting - along with the mistaken suspicion that Tucson mass murderer Jared Loughner might have been packing a Fast and Furious gun – panicked top ATF brass into halting its gun walking operations.
 
5. The Obama Justice Department cobbled together significant inter-agency co-operation for its huge gun walking programs.  As Kurt Hofmann of the Gun Rights Examiner notes, “At this point, we don’t seem to have any evidence that earlier ‘gunwalking’ involved the FBI, the DEA, DHS, the State Department, the IRS, and even the White House Security Council.”
 
6. And, of course, there was no massive cover-up of Wide Receiver.  No senior Administration officials committed perjury to distance themselves from it.  The ATF was not exactly advertising the existence of the operation, or its unhappy conclusion, but that’s very different from the thick stone wall Obama and his people tried to build around their far larger and deadlier operations.
 
In fact, a confidential informant named Mike Detty, who participated in Wide Receiver as a gun dealer, specifically told David Codrea of the Gun Rights Examiner that the Bush Administration was not involved in the earlier gun walking program:
 
The AP story said that under Bush this case was never prosecuted and it took the Obama administration to find this Bush debacle and prosecute.
 
The truth is that the first two AUSA's assigned to this case declined to prosecute it because ATF, ASAC, SAC and above, lied to him and told him that the guns were being followed on the other side of the border. One AUSA told me, "Why would I take this case to court when I'd have to sacrifice my integrity and professional credibility because ATF screwed up so badly?"
 
There you have it. It had nothing to do with Bush or even DOJ at that point. ATF decision makers made the decision to devote 3 years worth of resources on a case based on a lie.
 
(Emphasis mine.)  In summary, Operation Wide Receiver was a small-scale botched sting operation, in which a foolish, but faintly plausible, plan to track straw gun buyers to their criminal customers went terribly wrong.  The Obama Administration used this disaster as a template, radically increased its scale, and turned it into something else altogether. 

Far from letting the Obama Administration “off the hook” because “Bush did it too,” an understanding of the full Operation Wide Receiver story makes the Obama scandal worse.

 http://www.humanevents.com/2011/10/07/no-operation-wide-receiver-does-not-excuse-obama-or-holder


Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 09:47:18 AM »
Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 09:56:29 AM »
Wide Receiver" Wasn't Gunwalking Like Fast and Furious Is Gunwalking

http://minx.cc/?post=323260



 
Sheryl Aktinson, one of the only major media reporters even covering Fast and Furious, alleged that "Wide Receiver," a Bush era program, was a "gunwalking" program in the same sense that Fast and Furious was.

 But was it?

Bob Owens, notes that Wide Receiver actually involved surveillance -- or at least attempted surveillance. It's just that the surveillance failed.

 
In Operation Wide Receiver, Tucson agents allowed the sales of more than 500 firearms to known straw purchasers. Like Gunrunner/Fast and Furious, the operation apparently backfired.

 Some firearms in Wide Receiver were equipped with RFID tracking devices. In Wide Receiver, it seems the illegal purchasers seemed more than slightly knowledgeable of the ATF and how to take their aerial and electronic tracking procedures down.

 Knowing the time aloft numbers for virtually all planes used in government surveillance, the buyers had a simple method of getting their purchases across the border undetected. They simply drove four-hour loops around the area.

 As surveillance planes were forced to return to base for refueling, the smugglers simply turned and sprinted their cargo across the border.

 The RFID tags also turned out to be problematic.

 Rather than making large enough holes for the tags to be laid out inside weapons, agents force-fit them into the rifles.

 That cramming caused the antennae to be folded, reducing the effective range of the tags. And an already short battery life (36-48 hours maximum) meant that should purchasers allow the firearms to sit, the tracking devices eliminated themselves.

 In addition, Wide Receiver was conducted in cooperation with the Mexican authorities -- not kept secret from them, as a rogue American agency conducted a murderous covert operation in a neighboring sovereign country.

 Now, Wide Receiver failed. It all seems like a pretty dumb operation in hindsight. But you can see how it could have been predicted to work -- if the surveillance works, you've nabbed your bad guys.

 In Fast and Furious, there was no surveillance.

So what was the goal?

 In Wide Receiver, the guns "walked" without surveillance due to technical failure of the RFID devices and the gun-runners outwitting the ATF.

Someone in the administration please tell me a story wherein Fast and Furious was also a botch, a failure -- rather than having proceeded as planned.

 I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched -- but unless the administration can explain how their plan to let 2000+ guns "walk" into Mexico (without a head's up for Mexican law enforcement) accidentally became a failure, rather than proceeded according to plan, there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive.

 

Posted by: Ace at 04:31 PM




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Fury

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 10:41:18 AM »
Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?

Instead we'd have Piglosi shrieking like the taut, plastic banshee she is.

Good point!  ::)

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 11:53:31 AM »
Instead we'd have Piglosi shrieking like the taut, plastic banshee she is.

Good point!  ::)

True we would.. The vote for contempt was exactly what we expect from our government. All democrats voted no, all republicans voted yes. Had it been a Republican Prez it would have been the exact opposite. It's not about us, it's not about the border agents, it's about politics..

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 12:01:43 PM »
True we would.. The vote for contempt was exactly what we expect from our government. All democrats voted no, all republicans voted yes. Had it been a Republican Prez it would have been the exact opposite. It's not about us, it's not about the border agents, it's about politics..

Agree - in a sane world the vote would have been unanimous for contempt against holder 

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 12:54:46 PM »
Agree - in a sane world the vote would have been unanimous for contempt against holder 

In a sane world, F&F wouldn't have happened

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1699405835001


Michelle Malkin drops a nuke on that Jesse Jackson whore Tamra Holder

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 09:31:06 PM »
Bush didn't fire the guy that lost all the guns the first time.

he's the same dude that lost all the guns the 2nd time.

He was not stripped of ability to send guns over the border.  In fact, he was given many more guns to lose.

So I'd like to hear 33 tell us why Bush didn't fire the guy in 2006/2007... Or why he didn't at the very least say "Dude, you lost 400 guns or whatever... You are no longer allowed to run undercover gun operations.. much less much larger undercover gun operations that are IDENTICAL"..


It's like the churches that just sent the pedo down the road to a new parish every time he gets caught molesting a child.  Fire him!

George Whorewell

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 09:43:02 PM »
Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?

Any proof of this? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 09:46:42 PM »
Just curious, 333, you do know that if we had a Republican President, Issa wouldn't have said a word about F&F right?

Perhaps, although the main issue now is the AG either lying or covering up misconduct.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 06:57:31 AM »



WATCH AND LEARN ASSHOLES 

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 07:19:56 AM »
Any proof of this? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.

My evidence would be and is circumstancial. On the vote for contempt, it was divided exactly down party lines. All Democrates voting no, all Republicans voting yes. Historically, a party rarely, if ever goes after it's own party members, however it is routine for one party to attack or seek investigations, sanctions, impeachment on the other party... sooooo

Based on what has transpired overe the last 50 yrs, I think a reasonable assumption would be that Issa would not be so tenacious had McCain won and was in office and appointed a Republican AG

You feel differently? 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 07:22:59 AM »
My evidence would be and is circumstancial. On the vote for contempt, it was divided exactly down party lines. All Democrates voting no, all Republicans voting yes. Historically, a party rarely, if ever goes after it's own party members, however it is routine for one party to attack or seek investigations, sanctions, impeachment on the other party... sooooo

Based on what has transpired overe the last 50 yrs, I think a reasonable assumption would be that Issa would not be so tenacious had McCain won and was in office and appointed a Republican AG

You feel differently? 

Yet you agree that had McCain won and Pelosi still SOTH she would be doing the same thing correct? 

Either way, this issue needs to be dealt with.  the family deserves answers. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 07:24:21 AM »
Perhaps, although the main issue now is the AG either lying or covering up misconduct.

I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 07:25:01 AM »
Yet you agree that had McCain won and Pelosi still SOTH she would be doing the same thing correct? 

Either way, this issue needs to be dealt with.  the family deserves answers. 

Yes and Yes

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 07:25:32 AM »
I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time

There is also a dead ICE agent - Jamie Zapata who also died w a FnF weapon. 

Shockwave

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 07:32:46 AM »
I guess it's harder to say "I fuc*ed up" the higher you go, but there is so much value is being able to say it. When you can't or won't say it, you lose credibility and venture into the lying and cover up area. If that happened in this case, love to see him do some jail time
This.
Tremendous value in being able to admit your mistakes.

Agnostic007

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2012, 07:36:57 AM »
There is also a dead ICE agent - Jamie Zapata who also died w a FnF weapon. 

That is horrible. No doubt. And it should have bearing on the proceedings.. But you and I both know weapons are readily available and had it not been that exact weapon, it would have been another more than likely.

MCWAY

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2012, 07:39:12 AM »
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1699405835001


Michelle Malkin drops a nuke on that Jesse Jackson whore Tamra Holder

You should have seen what she did to Juan Williams.

BTW, Holder has yet to deny those claims that she's been screwing Jesse Jackson.

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2012, 07:58:05 AM »
why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?

Shockwave

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2012, 08:01:05 AM »
why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?
Maybe
A.Because an ICE agent didnt die
B.They were making a concentrated effort to track the firearms on BOTH sides of the border
C.Mexican government was part of the operation
D.They pulled the plug as soon as the Op wasn't going to work.

The difference between a failed op, and one so retarded that Agents die, is huge.
The best planning can still fail - but when you do the same thing again, only twice as retarded, and people die, then it becomes a total fuckup.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wide Receiver v. Fast n Furious - for the morons blaming Bush
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2012, 08:09:45 AM »
why didn't the Bush DOJ fire the man who lost 400 guns over the mex border in 2006?

Show me where they lost 400 guns?