Author Topic: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.  (Read 120539 times)

Shockwave

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #150 on: November 06, 2014, 10:49:08 PM »
We all have our beliefs on things Adam.  I am all for whatever helps these guys cope/ get through the day.

God is not my path to sobriety, but I respect a person's right to travel down that road.


yes.

AAs system works for people who are so broken that they meed something bigger than themselved to believe in.

Thats why the system works, theyre told 'this is the only way, do EXACTLY as we say and you can stay sober.'

And it works for those people that whole heartedly buy into it, give up the idea that the can control it, and follow their system. Rhese people often have nothing, no family, no loved ones, nothing but drugs/booze

I wasnt one of those people, and i couldnt just give on to the system. I had to find something more important than drugs, (namely my wife and son).

It works great for many. It will not work for anyone who thinks critically and/or hasnt hit rock bottom yet. You need to completely surrender your thought process and just accept that youre powerless.... which is exactly opposite my nature. I believe you always have an option, a way to fight back.

But its hard with drugs, because you have to fight it differently.

But, i agree with shizzo here. These people have NOTHING while using. If god helps them, then they need it. Without AA, a lot of thek would be dead or in prison.

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #151 on: November 06, 2014, 10:55:37 PM »
The court had nothing to do with it. I was not in trouble with the law.

I was given an ultimatum.
Who gave you the ultimatum, why and what are the terms?  So it would seem you are only doing it to please this entity and not for any other reason.

tbombz

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #152 on: November 06, 2014, 10:56:42 PM »

tbombz

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #153 on: November 06, 2014, 10:58:46 PM »

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2014, 10:59:54 PM »

tbombz

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2014, 11:01:02 PM »

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #157 on: November 06, 2014, 11:05:25 PM »

tbombz

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2014, 11:06:30 PM »

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #159 on: November 06, 2014, 11:07:34 PM »

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #160 on: November 06, 2014, 11:08:29 PM »

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #162 on: November 06, 2014, 11:14:50 PM »

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #163 on: November 06, 2014, 11:18:15 PM »

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #164 on: November 06, 2014, 11:21:15 PM »

The Ugly

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #165 on: November 07, 2014, 03:38:48 AM »
yes.

AAs system works for people who are so broken that they meed something bigger than themselved to believe in.

Thats why the system works, theyre told 'this is the only way, do EXACTLY as we say and you can stay sober.'

And it works for those people that whole heartedly buy into it, give up the idea that the can control it, and follow their system. Rhese people often have nothing, no family, no loved ones, nothing but drugs/booze

I wasnt one of those people, and i couldnt just give on to the system. I had to find something more important than drugs, (namely my wife and son).

It works great for many. It will not work for anyone who thinks critically and/or hasnt hit rock bottom yet. You need to completely surrender your thought process and just accept that youre powerless.... which is exactly opposite my nature. I believe you always have an option, a way to fight back.

But its hard with drugs, because you have to fight it differently.

But, i agree with shizzo here. These people have NOTHING while using. If god helps them, then they need it. Without AA, a lot of thek would be dead or in prison.

Very well stated, excellent post. F'n nailed the AA thing.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #166 on: November 07, 2014, 03:58:10 AM »
Best solution- Have more abortions, more pulling out, more condom usage, more birth control.  Anything that can lead to less humans writ large.  I would suggest a tax incentives or even outright payments to anyone who chooses not to have children. 

You must know your solution, however effective, would never happen here. Certainly can't legislate it, and if you are at all familiar with the culture of our exponentially growing Mexican population, you'd realize the exact opposite is an inevitability.

Put as simply and sensitively as possible: They fuck like rabbits and despise condoms. They start quite young as well. Plenty of pregnant students at my old high school. Not being intentionally racist, but browns make babies like yellows make rice. 5, 10, 15 to a family, very common. These were my neighbors growing up, and now their kids, grandkids, etc. are keeping the tradition alive.

So what's Plan B?

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #167 on: November 07, 2014, 04:00:17 AM »
You must know your solution, however effective, would never happen here. Certainly can't legislate it, and if you are at all familiar with the culture of our exponentially growing Mexican population, you'd realize the exact opposite is an inevitability.

Put as simply and sensitively as possible: They fuck like rabbits and despise condoms. They start quite young as well. Plenty of pregnant students at my old high school. Not being intentionally racist, but browns make babies like yellows make rice. 5, 10, 15 to a family, very common. These were my neighbors growing up, and now their kids, grandkids, etc. are keeping the tradition alive.

So what's Plan B?

Lace the tacos.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #168 on: November 07, 2014, 04:16:00 AM »
Were you court ordered or something?  If so, you could probably go before the court and argue that you can no longer attend as they brought religion into it and cite separation of church in state in government proceedings.

Won't work.

AA never mentions any specific religion, no bibles, except the Big Book, which they sometimes refer to as the bible. It's an alcoholic recovery text is all and they don't really cram it down your throat. What they do is "suggest" you adopt and surrender to a Higher Power, as you, an addict, are powerless over your "disease." But they quickly and often point out it doesn't have to mean God, just something stronger than you that you can lean on through recovery (the group itself, friends/family support, etc.)

So if it's court ordered, the freedom of/from religion angle won't fly.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #169 on: November 07, 2014, 02:19:47 PM »
Won't work.

AA never mentions any specific religion, no bibles, except the Big Book, which they sometimes refer to as the bible. It's an alcoholic recovery text is all and they don't really cram it down your throat. What they do is "suggest" you adopt and surrender to a Higher Power, as you, an addict, are powerless over your "disease." But they quickly and often point out it doesn't have to mean God, just something stronger than you that you can lean on through recovery (the group itself, friends/family support, etc.)

So if it's court ordered, the freedom of/from religion angle won't fly.
Thats pure shit.  That is putting alcoholism on some sort of pedestal and casting you as the weakling.  By doing so, I could see human nature overriding and wanting it even more.  What a joke.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #170 on: November 07, 2014, 02:33:38 PM »
Thats pure shit.  That is putting alcoholism on some sort of pedestal and casting you as the weakling.  By doing so, I could see human nature overriding and wanting it even more.  What a joke.
it certainly works for a lot of people. In the short term, they need something like that to latch onto until they get a normal life back together.

Theres no options for a lot of these guys, they do whatever they can grab on to that will give them enough sober time to get some semblence of self control back.

Right now, it has the highest success rate by far... people like me are vastly in the minority.

Its one of those deals whete regardless of what we think of thr message/idea, it works. And thats all that matters for addicts.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #171 on: November 07, 2014, 03:07:00 PM »
it certainly works for a lot of people. In the short term, they need something like that to latch onto until they get a normal life back together.

Theres no options for a lot of these guys, they do whatever they can grab on to that will give them enough sober time to get some semblence of self control back.

Right now, it has the highest success rate by far... people like me are vastly in the minority.

Its one of those deals whete regardless of what we think of thr message/idea, it works. And thats all that matters for addicts.
What happens if they discover its bullshit?

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #172 on: November 07, 2014, 03:08:32 PM »
it certainly works for a lot of people. In the short term, they need something like that to latch onto until they get a normal life back together.

Theres no options for a lot of these guys, they do whatever they can grab on to that will give them enough sober time to get some semblence of self control back.

Right now, it has the highest success rate by far... people like me are vastly in the minority.

Its one of those deals whete regardless of what we think of thr message/idea, it works. And thats all that matters for addicts.
This is interesting:

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery



Since its founding in the 1930s, Alcoholics Anonymous has become part of the fabric of American society. AA and the many 12-step groups it inspired have become the country's go-to solution for addiction in all of its forms. These recovery programs are mandated by drug courts, prescribed by doctors and widely praised by reformed addicts.

Dr. Lance Dodes sees a big problem with that. The psychiatrist has spent more than 20 years studying and treating addiction. His latest book on the subject is The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry.

Dodes tells NPR's Arun Rath that 12-step recovery simply doesn't work, despite anecdotes about success.

"We hear from the people who do well; we don't hear from the people who don't do well," he says.
Interview Highlights

On Alcoholics Anonymous' success rate

There is a large body of evidence now looking at AA success rate, and the success rate of AA is between 5 and 10 percent. Most people don't seem to know that because it's not widely publicized. ... There are some studies that have claimed to show scientifically that AA is useful. These studies are riddled with scientific errors and they say no more than what we knew to begin with, which is that AA has probably the worst success rate in all of medicine.

It's not only that AA has a 5 to 10 percent success rate; if it was successful and was neutral the rest of the time, we'd say OK. But it's harmful to the 90 percent who don't do well. And it's harmful for several important reasons. One of them is that everyone believes that AA is the right treatment. AA is never wrong, according to AA. If you fail in AA, it's you that's failed.

On why 12-step programs can work

The reason that the 5 to 10 percent do well in AA actually doesn't have to do with the 12 steps themselves; it has to do with the camaraderie. It's a supportive organization with people who are on the whole kind to you, and it gives you a structure. Some people can make a lot of use of that. And to its credit, AA describes itself as a brotherhood rather than a treatment.
Lance Dodes is also the author of Breaking Addiction and The Heart of Addiction. i

Lance Dodes is also the author of Breaking Addiction and The Heart of Addiction.
Zachary Dodes/Courtesy of Beacon Press

So as you can imagine, a few people given that kind of setting are able to change their behavior at least temporarily, maybe permanently. But most people can't deal with their addiction, which is deeply driven, by just being in a brotherhood.

On a psychological approach to addiction

When people are confronted with a feeling of being trapped, of being overwhelmingly helpless, they have to do something. It isn't necessarily the "something" that actually deals with the problem. ... Why addiction, though — why drink? Well, that's the "something" that they do. In psychology we call it a displacement; you could call it a substitute ...

When people can understand their addiction and what drives it, not only are they able to manage it but they can predict the next time the addictive urge will come up, because they know the kind of things that will make them feel overwhelmingly helpless. Given that forewarning, they can manage it much better.

But unlike AA, I would never claim that what I've suggested is right for everybody. But ... let's say I had nothing better to offer: It wouldn't matter — we still need to change the system as it is because we are harming 90 percent of the people.

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #173 on: November 07, 2014, 03:12:19 PM »
This is interesting and just what I figured when they cast you as the weakling. "It's not only that AA has a 5 to 10 percent success rate; if it was successful and was neutral the rest of the time, we'd say OK. But it's harmful to the 90 percent who don't do well. And it's harmful for several important reasons. One of them is that everyone believes that AA is the right treatment. AA is never wrong, according to AA. If you fail in AA, it's you that's failed."

The True Adonis

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Re: Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.
« Reply #174 on: November 07, 2014, 03:14:00 PM »
AA is beyond fucked up:  The only alternatives to AA, as asserted by the Big Book, are "jails, institutions, and death."