Author Topic: Dorian yates HIT?  (Read 37010 times)

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2020, 09:26:52 AM »

Past a few sets you are only working for endurance. Study after study shows that more is not better. Even intensity tends to lose its punch when taken to extremes.


The dose/response curve is the same for any stimulus- Hans Selye proved that 60 years ago.
Very true.

Rmj11

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2022, 03:58:59 AM »

Past a few sets you are only working for endurance. Study after study shows that more is not better. Even intensity tends to lose its punch when taken to extremes.


The dose/response curve is the same for any stimulus- Hans Selye proved that 60 years ago.

Actually, not true.

Rmj11

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2022, 04:12:20 AM »
Dorian never did hit. He did a version of powerlifting in a bodybuilding style. I totally agree with another poster on here that Dorian did not outwork anyone. He simply did the same as most pro's. He did 3 to 4 sets of an exercise pyramiding the weight each set which pre exhausts the muscle before the top set. His sets were not 'warm ups' as he likes to believe. The grimacing displayed on his face on some of those so called warm ups in Blood and Guts proves that. Even on some exercises he never went to failure, notably deadlifts, barbell rows, stiff leg deadlifts, he just did 6 normal reps and that was it.

Fact is, what you see in blood and guts was just for entertainment purposes. It is not a training manual.
Also, Yates only used used the blood and guts method once or twice a year for 6 to 8 weeks. The rest of the year he did more pump sets since you can't train heavy and to the max long term. Even powerlifters don't do that. They cycle their training to avoid burnout and plateaus. So no, Yates wasn't the hardest trainer ad he likes to believe. Problem with Yates is that he is his own biggest fan. He exaggerates a lot but when you actually study his workouts and such, you find he wasn't doing anything different than most bodybuilders. The guy was all hype really.

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2022, 04:41:05 AM »
Dorian never did hit. He did a version of powerlifting in a bodybuilding style. I totally agree with another poster on here that Dorian did not outwork anyone. He simply did the same as most pro's. He did 3 to 4 sets of an exercise pyramiding the weight each set which pre exhausts the muscle before the top set. His sets were not 'warm ups' as he likes to believe. The grimacing displayed on his face on some of those so called warm ups in Blood and Guts proves that. Even on some exercises he never went to failure, notably deadlifts, barbell rows, stiff leg deadlifts, he just did 6 normal reps and that was it.

Fact is, what you see in blood and guts was just for entertainment purposes. It is not a training manual.
Also, Yates only used used the blood and guts method once or twice a year for 6 to 8 weeks. The rest of the year he did more pump sets since you can't train heavy and to the max long term. Even powerlifters don't do that. They cycle their training to avoid burnout and plateaus. So no, Yates wasn't the hardest trainer ad he likes to believe. Problem with Yates is that he is his own biggest fan. He exaggerates a lot but when you actually study his workouts and such, you find he wasn't doing anything different than most bodybuilders. The guy was all hype really.
He won Mr O that's all that matters. You still sound very bitter..Shawn

joswift

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2022, 08:18:34 AM »
watch any video where Yates is training someone, he always pushes them further than he used to go....

Dave D

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2022, 08:22:03 AM »
watch any video where Yates is training someone, he always pushes them further than he used to go....

LOL great point!

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2022, 08:41:41 AM »
watch any video where Yates is training someone, he always pushes them further than he used to go....
OK Mr O   ::)

joswift

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2022, 09:50:13 AM »
OK Mr O   ::)
Go watch his Blood andf Guts chest routine and tell me if you think it was the hardest training bodybuilder in the world
He didnt go to failure let alone any forced reps

Hulkotron

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2022, 12:10:42 PM »
I liked to do 2-3 weeks of volume and then 1 week of HIT.

x2 this is the way

youandme

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2022, 01:17:52 PM »
watch any video where Yates is training someone, he always pushes them further than he used to go....

Lmao I was thinking the same thing. No way those trainees keep going for weeks on a program like that. You’d make progress first two weeks and then over training symptoms would prevent you from carrying on.

I used to train HIT style for a week, maybe 3-4 times a year. Or when I travelled and found a bad ass gym with great equipment and a pull over machine. Can’t do it long-term or you’re asking for an injury.

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2022, 01:52:23 AM »
Go watch his Blood andf Guts chest routine and tell me if you think it was the hardest training bodybuilder in the world
He didnt go to failure let alone any forced reps
Not everyone grunts or pulls a face when they shoot their load either

joswift

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2022, 02:50:48 AM »
Not everyone grunts or pulls a face when they shoot their load either

Last set incline bench 8 pretty easy reps then racked it
Fucking brutal

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2022, 03:24:29 AM »
Last set incline bench 8 pretty easy reps then racked it
Fucking brutal
why the hate?   ::)  he won Mr O, you didn´t champ.

youandme

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2022, 04:55:50 AM »
Just like Phil Hernon never did HIT, Big Beyond Belief to attain his physique. We all change routines up, lift heavy, volume, etc. The 90s kept it pretty simple. Off season lift heavier and pre-contest lift for volume.

joswift

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2022, 10:17:39 AM »
why the hate?   ::)  he won Mr O, you didn´t champ.

Hate?

Guy was a great bodybuilder
I think he had the training down pat, a bit like Haney, stimulate dont annihilate, watch the Blood and guts videos with the sound off, without that guy screaming it is much better to watch and doesnt come across as anywhere near as intense.

He just does a few sets , heavy and moderate reps, pretty much a standard bodybuilding routine

The video where he pushed Cormir on legs was way harder than Dorians leg routine in Blood and guts

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2022, 10:36:45 AM »
Hate?

Guy was a great bodybuilder
I think he had the training down pat, a bit like Haney, stimulate dont annihilate, watch the Blood and guts videos with the sound off, without that guy screaming it is much better to watch and doesnt come across as anywhere near as intense.

He just does a few sets , heavy and moderate reps, pretty much a standard bodybuilding routine

The video where he pushed Cormir on legs was way harder than Dorians leg routine in Blood and guts
watch when he did barbell rows. you couldn´t squat that champ  :D

joswift

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2022, 12:47:03 PM »
watch when he did barbell rows. you couldn´t squat that champ  :D
I dont squat at all....

watch it with the sound turned off  ;)

Titus Pullo

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #117 on: June 21, 2022, 01:34:48 PM »
Dorian never did hit. He did a version of powerlifting in a bodybuilding style. I totally agree with another poster on here that Dorian did not outwork anyone. He simply did the same as most pro's. He did 3 to 4 sets of an exercise pyramiding the weight each set which pre exhausts the muscle before the top set. His sets were not 'warm ups' as he likes to believe. Thee did, what? grimacing displayed on his face on some of those so called warm ups in Blood and Guts proves that. Even on some exercises he never went to failure, notably deadlifts, barbell rows, stiff leg deadlifts, he just did 6 normal reps and that was it.

About the warm-up sets, I beg to differ.

In his video, he started out with barbell inclines.  135, 225, and 315 sets were clearly no struggle.  He did, what?  Six reps with three plates?

Seeing as how he did six perfect reps with either 415 or 425, I don't see why that disqualifies his status as a "HIT" trainer.  Indeed, he went on to do a max set of Hammer Press, another max set on incline fly and on the cable crossover.  Admittedly, that's more than most so-called HIT people do; then again, HIT covers a whole spectrum, even paradigm, of training.  Nobody can really identify where HIT ends and volume begins.  Was Arnold doing "volume" opposite Johnny Fuller?  Did any of the 90s crew do volume compared to Sonny Schmidt?

Dorian warmed up with progressively heavier weights but saved his energy for a few top sets per bodypart.  Set total varied per muscle but he seemed to fall in the 4-8 range.

P.S. -- I know what Jeff is going to say :)

His incline was taken to technical failure.  It's obvious he wouldn't get another by himself.  Yes, it's also true that Yates left a rep or two in the tank on some of the aforementioned exercises.  I don't see that as him being any less than a very hard trainer for two reasons:

The exercises he seemingly stopped early were all movements that could further exacerbate his biceps injury

This is shit he did day in, day out for years on end.  It's one thing to drill yourself into the ground for a few months, or even a couple of years.  It's entirely another to go from almost nothing in 83 to the freakiest human to walk the planet just ten years later.

Quote
Fact is, what you see in blood and guts was just for entertainment purposes. It is not a training manual.
Also, Yates only used used the blood and guts method once or twice a year for 6 to 8 weeks. The rest of the year he did more pump sets since you can't train heavy and to the max long term. Even powerlifters don't do that. They cycle their training to avoid burnout and plateaus. So no, Yates wasn't the hardest trainer ad he likes to believe. Problem with Yates is that he is his own biggest fan. He exaggerates a lot but when you actually study his workouts and such, you find he wasn't doing anything different than most bodybuilders. The guy was all hype really.

I'm sorry to differ with you, but that's pure bullshit.

Yates logged his workouts religiously early on, and there's nothing in them to substantiate your claims.  His training logs from the mid-eighties up to and after the '91 Olympia are readily available via .pdf.  You won't find "pump training" or such there.

Was he the hardest trainer?  Set per set, no, not versus some guys; but year-round?  He probably worked harder than most of his contemporaries, many of whom were notoriously lazy in the gym (Wheeler, Dilett) and/or partied their asses off (Cormier)?  Yes, especially after Levrone took to his long layoffs.  Shawn Ray was up there, though. 


Humble Narcissist

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2022, 09:55:08 AM »
Just like Phil Hernon never did HIT, Big Beyond Belief to attain his physique. We all change routines up, lift heavy, volume, etc. The 90s kept it pretty simple. Off season lift heavier and pre-contest lift for volume.
The whole program of Big Beyond Belief was to constantly change your routine up.

JackTheRipper

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2022, 10:10:50 AM »
I dont squat at all....

watch it with the sound turned off  ;)
oh shut up  ::)

Rmj11

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2022, 04:53:35 PM »
watch any video where Yates is training someone, he always pushes them further than he used to go....

Very true. Yates trained no harder than anyone else. He trained with no more intensity than those in Pumping Iron.

Rmj11

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #121 on: July 21, 2022, 04:55:47 PM »
Lmao I was thinking the same thing. No way those trainees keep going for weeks on a program like that. You’d make progress first two weeks and then over training symptoms would prevent you from carrying on.

I used to train HIT style for a week, maybe 3-4 times a year. Or when I travelled and found a bad ass gym with great equipment and a pull over machine. Can’t do it long-term or you’re asking for an injury.

Very true. Even Yates never trained all out long term. Most of the time he used a bit more sets and cut back on the intensity. This was all confirmed by those I spoke to who trained at temple gym back in the 90's.

Rmj11

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #122 on: July 21, 2022, 05:11:08 PM »
About the warm-up sets, I beg to differ.

"In his video, he started out with barbell inclines.  135, 225, and 315 sets were clearly no struggle.  He did, what?  Six reps with three plates?

Seeing as how he did six perfect reps with either 415 or 425, I don't see why that disqualifies his status as a "HIT" trainer."

No. He was grimacing, his reps were slow due to the weight he was using and Leeroy was spotting him. Hardly a warm up set.

"Indeed, he went on to do a max set of Hammer Press, another max set on incline fly and on the cable crossover.  Admittedly, that's more than most so-called HIT people do; then again, HIT covers a whole spectrum, even paradigm, of training.  Nobody can really identify where HIT ends and volume begins.  Was Arnold doing "volume" opposite Johnny Fuller?  Did any of the 90s crew do volume compared to Sonny Schmidt?"

Hit does not cover much at all. Volume is what bodybuilders use to build up their bodies. Yates was no different.

"Dorian warmed up with progressively heavier weights but saved his energy for a few top sets per bodypart.  Set total varied per muscle but he seemed to fall in the 4-8 range."

Nope. I have his books. He kept the reps 6 to 10 on upper body movements and 8 to 12 for lower body movements. His sets were work up sets. None of them were warm ups. Just because he didn't go "all out" on them doesn't mean the load of the weight wasn't working the muscle fibres hard. You don't have a clue about load and tension.

P.S. -- I know what Jeff is going to say :)

"His incline was taken to technical failure.  It's obvious he wouldn't get another by himself.  Yes, it's also true that Yates left a rep or two in the tank on some of the aforementioned exercises.  I don't see that as him being any less than a very hard trainer for two reasons:

The exercises he seemingly stopped early were all movements that could further exacerbate his biceps injury"

Not true. Stiff leg deaflifts don't involve the biceps much if at all.

"This is shit he did day in, day out for years on end.  It's one thing to drill yourself into the ground for a few months, or even a couple of years.  It's entirely another to go from almost nothing in 83 to the freakiest human to walk the planet just ten years later."

You're forgetting the huge cocktail of drugs he was on. And no, his training routine was more sets and volume for the most pf his training years.

"I'm sorry to differ with you, but that's pure bullshit."

It's not.

"Yates logged his workouts religiously early on, and there's nothing in them to substantiate your claims.  His training logs from the mid-eighties up to and after the '91 Olympia are readily available via .pdf.  You won't find "pump training" or such there."

Spoke to those who trained at temple gym in the 90's. He only did that blood and guts trainjng precontest. Rest of the year he did more pump sets. You can't train heavy to the max all year round. The cns will burnout and the stress on the joints would be too much. Dorian logged his workouts which you can now buy on Amazon. He was not doing hit in those early workouts. He did a combination of pyramid sets, reverse sets, straight sets and drop sets but no one set to failure.

"Was he the hardest trainer?  Set per set, no, not versus some guys; but year-round?  He probably worked harder than most of his contemporaries, many of whom were notoriously lazy in the gym (Wheeler, Dilett) and/or partied their asses off (Cormier)?  Yes, especially after Levrone took to his long layoffs.  Shawn Ray was up there, though."


Again nope. He trained no harder than any other bodybuilder. His training was pyramid sets. Most pro's use them in their workouts. Nothing special or radical about it.


LurkerNoMore

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #123 on: July 21, 2022, 05:58:52 PM »
I am currently reading Yates bio now.  Little over half way through and at the chapters regarding the 92 Mr. O.   But one thing he has stated about HIT and his training belief(s) is/are that you need no more than 3-4 work sets per muscle to stimulate growth.  He would do one (or two) sets mainly just to get the feel of the movement that he was about to perform.  He didn't count these sets because they were not taxing enough to stimulate the muscle for growth.

He said that in terms of all out intensity, using forced reps and negatives, he still trained 3 times per week, 3-4 work sets per muscle and only for about 6 weeks at a time before lowering the intensity and dropping the negatives and forced reps.  He states that continuing to train with high intensity after about 6 weeks was counter productive to muscle growth.  That after 6 weeks of high intensity training your body needed more rest and recovery for growth than it needed actual training.  He went back to training to muscle failure (stopping when the next rep would not be possible) as opposed to exceeding failure with forced reps and negatives.  He believed in total rest and recovery for the body and CNS instead of just rest for the muscles (training them sooner just because they were not sore).

I can't speak for how honest he is being in the book, but he sounds sincere.  I mean why would he lie?  About the drugs maybe, but training?  It makes no sense.  He isn't profiting off his training ideas or methods, so no reason for him to be deceptive about it I would think.

pamith

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Re: Dorian yates HIT?
« Reply #124 on: July 21, 2022, 09:20:57 PM »
The irony is the high volume is better than HIT in the long run