Author Topic: Why is the level of discourse so much more intelligent in Democratic Debates  (Read 18997 times)

tonymctones

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I'm not so sure that everyone wants a million dollars really.  Most just want to be able to live without worry.  Making millions of dollars is a goal, only few people really wish to seek.  Luckily, there are ways to get there by default and there are millions of different ways to get there if one wants to, but we must recognize not everyone cares for that end goal.
Agreed on all points

tonymctones

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What is patently false?
did you read the quote from price waterhouse? did you click the link to see any of their report?

tonymctones

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Do you have facts to support this or is it just your beliefs that count?
As I stated in my post it was my belief but if you read the report from Price Waterhouse they do go into traits that they feel are synonymous with billionaires

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/financial-services/publications/assets/pwc-ubs-billionaire-report.pdf

The True Adonis

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I personally think the most realistic and best goal for an individual to strive for is making themselves debt free lifestyle (without making anyone else in debt) and one that they can continue to the end of their days .  That could take a million dollars or just a few thousand, but that should be the real goal.

Someone making 30,000 a year, debt free with no liabilities is better off than someone like those broke football players with 10 million dollar salary but 300 million in the hole with no ability to mathematically ever catch up to the debt or to preserve the lifestyle they envisioned (debt free, lolol)

Las Vegas

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https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/financial-services/publications/assets/pwc-ubs-billionaire-report.pdf

" In 2000, the number of self-made billionaires overtook the number of multigenerational
billionaires for the first time since the first ‘Gilded Age’.
And, in 2014, entrepreneur billionaires made
up 66% of the total billionaire population"

that is patently false prime and again a talking point of the left. I agree that those with a stable supportive family life and more opportunities due to their parents success tend have a leg up but that is completely false.

Because of tech?

Primemuscle

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The number of rich people does matter in the context of how many are self made, which is how this conversation started. The talking point is that most wealthy people inherit their money which is false. If you go from two rich parent to one super rich heir then yes the number of rich wealthy people has decreased....

Again, can you substantiate this or is it just your belief we are talking about here?


In Reality, the Wealthy Inherit Ungodly Sums of Money

Posted by Matt Bruenig on January 21, 2014

"At the National Review, Kevin Williamson tells us that the rich and wealthy are hard workers, not people who just inherit a bunch of money. It's not clear who exactly he thinks he is responding to, but someone must have really irked him on this. In any case, the reality is that the wealthy, whether they work hard or not, are generally inheritors of enormous sums of money. On average, the wealthiest 1 percent of households have inherited 447 times more money than households with wealth below $25,000."

http://www.demos.org/blog/1/21/14/reality-wealthy-inherit-ungodly-sums-money

tonymctones

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I personally think the most realistic and best goal for an individual to strive for is making themselves debt free lifestyle (without making anyone else in debt) and one that they can continue to the end of their days .  That could take a million dollars or just a few thousand, but that should be the real goal.

Someone making 30,000 a year, debt free with no liabilities is better off than someone like those broke football players with 10 million dollar salary but 300 million in the hole with no ability to mathematically ever catch up to the debt or to preserve the lifestyle they envisioned (debt free, lolol)
I think living within your means is a big part of being happy in life but I also understand the drive to want a nicer lifestyle as well.

The True Adonis

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I think living within your means is a big part of being happy in life but I also understand the drive to want a nicer lifestyle as well.
The Witcher 3 is the same game if you have 100 billion dollars or just 100.

tonymctones

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Because of tech?
Im sure thats a big part of it, being more efficient using technology to help scale your business while a the same time drive costs down and margins up has surely created more wealth for those business owners.

tonymctones

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Again, can you substantiate this or is it just your belief we are talking about here?


In Reality, the Wealthy Inherit Ungodly Sums of Money

Posted by Matt Bruenig on January 21, 2014

"At the National Review, Kevin Williamson tells us that the rich and wealthy are hard workers, not people who just inherit a bunch of money. It's not clear who exactly he thinks he is responding to, but someone must have really irked him on this. In any case, the reality is that the wealthy, whether they work hard or not, are generally inheritors of enormous sums of money. On average, the wealthiest 1 percent of households have inherited 447 times more money than households with wealth below $25,000."

http://www.demos.org/blog/1/21/14/reality-wealthy-inherit-ungodly-sums-money
Again your talking apples and oranges Prime, the original conversation started around whether or not most wealthy people inherit their money or earn it.

Is it really in most cases? Seems to me, in many cases wealth is inherited. In many other cases it results from incredible luck. Sure lot's folks work for their wealth.

are you kidding me prime? do i need to substantiate that there is a liberal talking point that is perpetuated to create animosity towards "wealthy" people? You posted a link that supports my statement? Your post about Forbes was wrong, it wasnt forbes that said that but a left wing think tank saying how forbes spins the truth to get to that conclusion....

tonymctones

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I can agree with you prime that the wealthy inherit a lot more than middle class people but virtue of...BEING WEALTHY!!!

I think that you as a parent can understand wanting to provide for you family and children. Do you think there should be a cap on how much you can transfer to your children?

Las Vegas

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Im sure thats a big part of it, being more efficient using technology to help scale your business while a the same time drive costs down and margins up has surely created more wealth for those business owners.

Yep, there is that and also from internet companies and apps.  Made owner-billionaires and the worth of the companies made millionaires out of some of their employees.

Last time so many became "new rich" was from industrial production in 1870s and couple decades after.  Running factories before unionization was able to form.


Primemuscle

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As I stated in my post it was my belief but if you read the report from Price Waterhouse they do go into traits that they feel are synonymous with billionaires

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/financial-services/publications/assets/pwc-ubs-billionaire-report.pdf

UBS is formerly known as the Union Bank of Switzerland. UBS is headquartered in Zurich and Basel, Switzerland. Their perspectives are focused on investors.  
-just saying

https://www.ubs.com/global/en/about_ubs/investor_relations/faq/about.html

PwC to pay $25 million to settle money laundering report allegations

“We are continuing to find examples of improper influence and misconduct in the bank consulting industry,” said Benjamin M. Lawsky, who heads the New York department. “When bank executives pressure a consultant to whitewash a supposedly ‘objective’ report to regulators – and the consultant goes along with it – that can strike at the very heart of our system of prudential oversight.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2014/08/18/pwc-to-pay-25-million-to-settle-money-laundering-report-allegations

While the articles you posted from UBS/PWC may be right, do you really believe you can trust these financial corporations to give you accurate information?

240 is Back

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the majority of millionaires are self made, so yea that probably means they have some unique skill set or an expertise they can leverage...

Sixty-seven percent of high-net-worth Americans are self-made millionaires

tonymctones

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UBS is formerly known as the Union Bank of Switzerland. UBS is headquartered in Zurich and Basel, Switzerland. Their perspectives are focused on investors.  
-just saying

https://www.ubs.com/global/en/about_ubs/investor_relations/faq/about.html

PwC to pay $25 million to settle money laundering report allegations

“We are continuing to find examples of improper influence and misconduct in the bank consulting industry,” said Benjamin M. Lawsky, who heads the New York department. “When bank executives pressure a consultant to whitewash a supposedly ‘objective’ report to regulators – and the consultant goes along with it – that can strike at the very heart of our system of prudential oversight.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2014/08/18/pwc-to-pay-25-million-to-settle-money-laundering-report-allegations

While the articles you posted from UBS/PWC may be right, do you really believe you can trust these financial corporations to give you accurate information?
I dont know why you keep missing the points of my posts but maybe its my fault to let me clarify. I know what UBS is, I used to work for them. Their perspective is focused on investors, which is my point!!! They more than anybody need to know their clients so YES, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY trust a report from Price Waterhouse for UBS b/c their agenda is to use that information to make more money...The Fair economy or whatever their name is has an agenda that is to push a certain talking point, so what do you think they are going to say???

This report wasnt for the general public is was so that the FAs could know how and where the wealth was being created to help them find and acquire those people as clients...So yea I trust the price waterhouse report over the fair economy bs

The True Adonis

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Sixty-seven percent of high-net-worth Americans are self-made millionaires
Nobody is doubting the self-made part (at least I am not).  What I do KNOW is the highly skilled part.  There are more Highly Skilled Non-Millionaires than highly skilled millionaires.

tonymctones

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Nobody is doubting the self-made part (at least I am not).  What I do KNOW is the highly skilled part.  There are more Highly Skilled Non-Millionaires than highly skilled millionaires.
true being highly skilled doesnt mean you will be successful but that doesnt mean that the majority of millionaires arent highly skilled, both can be true.

Primemuscle

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I dont know why you keep missing the points of my posts but maybe its my fault to let me clarify. I know what UBS is, I used to work for them. Their perspective is focused on investors, which is my point!!! They more than anybody need to know their clients so YES, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY trust a report from Price Waterhouse for UBS b/c their agenda is to use that information to make more money...The Fair economy or whatever their name is has an agenda that is to push a certain talking point, so what do you think they are going to say???

This report wasnt for the general public is was so that the FAs could know how and where the wealth was being created to help them find and acquire those people as clients...So yea I trust the price waterhouse report over the fair economy bs

It is probably safe to say that it makes little difference, looking at the big picture, whether folks inherit their wealth or earn it. If folks believe anyone can make it, it gives those who are struggling hope for the future. My hope for them is that the future won't disappoint them.

tonymctones

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It is probably safe to say that it makes little difference, looking at the big picture, whether folks inherit their wealth or earn it. If folks believe anyone can make it, it gives those who are struggling hope for the future. My hope for them is that the future won't disappoint them.
It makes a difference when you use the false idea that the majority of the "wealthy" inherit their wealth as a way to drive animosity and push tax increases that dont effect the majority of the country. It also serves to dismiss your hopes that those struggling for hope may have and may very well lead to people not trying bc they believe it doesnt matter....with a lie might I add.

I agree with you for the most part on the belief part, I think you should work hard no matter what you do. I could have ended up being a janitor or something if I had made different decisions in my life but I would have been the best damn janitor there was. No matter what your station in life you should work hard and look for opportunities to improve if youre not satisfied. By virtue of the way economics works though if many of the people struggling for hope want to be "wealthy" they are going to be disappointed...just the way it works, not everyone can be successful.

Las Vegas

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It makes a difference when you use the false idea that the majority of the "wealthy" inherit their wealth as a way to drive animosity and push tax increases that dont effect the majority of the country. It also serves to dismiss your hopes that those struggling for hope may have and may very well lead to people not trying bc they believe it doesnt matter....with a lie might I add.

I agree with you for the most part on the belief part, I think you should work hard no matter what you do. I could have ended up being a janitor or something if I had made different decisions in my life but I would have been the best damn janitor there was. No matter what your station in life you should work hard and look for opportunities to improve if youre not satisfied. By virtue of the way economics works though if many of the people struggling for hope want to be "wealthy" they are going to be disappointed...just the way it works, not everyone can be successful.

Other than those two times (gilded age and tech/internet boom) hasn't it stayed true, though??  I don't know.

absfabs

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hmmm IQ most likely.

Republican have far far higher IQ than dems.  Hillary, was just someones wife....

Davidtheman100

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No.  You don't know many rich people do you?  :D

I don't know what you would categorize as rich....I have money myself (self made) but i wouldn't say i'm rich...I know people on both sides of the stick...Self made or inherited...Either way in EVERY CASE the ones who inherited the riches have good jobs and went to good colleges and are quite smart....I don't have a bias but i'd lean towards the people getting rich to be from their own hard work...I mean you look at all the athletes as a good example...Nobody performs for them night in and night out...Their are tons of athletes worth over 100m just here in the states...

tonymctones

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Other than those two times (gilded age and tech/internet boom) hasn't it stayed true, though??  I don't know.
not sure, though it would make sense that in the eras in which a lot of wealth is created the majority of wealth created goes to those who dont have any.

It would also make sense that in eras where not a lot of wealth is created the majority of wealthy people get their wealth from inheritance.

Again dont know for sure though.

Primemuscle

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It makes a difference when you use the false idea that the majority of the "wealthy" inherit their wealth as a way to drive animosity and push tax increases that dont effect the majority of the country. It also serves to dismiss your hopes that those struggling for hope may have and may very well lead to people not trying bc they believe it doesnt matter....with a lie might I add.

I agree with you for the most part on the belief part, I think you should work hard no matter what you do. I could have ended up being a janitor or something if I had made different decisions in my life but I would have been the best damn janitor there was. No matter what your station in life you should work hard and look for opportunities to improve if youre not satisfied. By virtue of the way economics works though if many of the people struggling for hope want to be "wealthy" they are going to be disappointed...just the way it works, not everyone can be successful.

I guess it makes a difference if one is inclined to feel animosity toward the wealthy regardless of how they achieved their wealth, which certainly does not describe me.

As for tax increases, which is really a whole other issue, my opinion is that everyone should be taxed the same, meaning the same percentage of their gross income, regardless of whether they are dead broke of incredibly rich. I believe this is known as a true flat tax. Like most folks, I take advantage of any deductions allowed me within the tax codes. With a true flat tax, there are no deductions, regardless of how rich or poor you are.

Believe it or not, there are many ways that people both honestly and dishonestly reduce their gross income which subsequently reduces their taxes. My stepdad was self-employed. Knowing that there was no way the government could track his income aside from looking at his lifestyle verses what he claimed to earn which would not have begun to support the lifestyle he, my mom and I enjoyed.

One of my best friends, a staunch Republican, owned her own business before she sold it and retired. She'd often complained about having to pay around $10,000 in quarterly taxes. It made me laugh. If she was paying $40,000 a year in taxes, imagine how much money she was making? It was really hard to feel sorry for her. Most of her work time consisted of schmoosing her clientele on the golf course, with expensive business lunches, or tickets to expensive venues. It "hard work" if you can get it. She is still a great friend, although her retirement isn't as flush as mine and I made nowhere near what she made when we worked. Funny how that works out sometimes.

Primemuscle

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I don't know what you would categorize as rich....I have money myself (self made) but i wouldn't say i'm rich...I know people on both sides of the stick...Self made or inherited...Either way in EVERY CASE the ones who inherited the riches have good jobs and went to good colleges and are quite smart....I don't have a bias but i'd lean towards the people getting rich to be from their own hard work...I mean you look at all the athletes as a good example...Nobody performs for them night in and night out...Their are tons of athletes worth over 100m just here in the states...
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Which is somewhat ridiculous. But then, if the public didn't support them by paying the exorbitant prices charged for tickets to watch them play, they wouldn't be earning what they are.

I guess I am a snob. There are people who earn gross amounts of money and remain low class, whether it is the Kardashians with their pointless reality show or famous sports figures who can't seem to stay out of jail.  Having wealth certainly isn't synonymous with being a good person. There's something about the phrase "the weak shall inherit the earth" which doesn't ring true.