MIKE MENTZER: MR. NORTH AMERICA 1977

[Titus Pullo]

No argument about Roger Walker.  He was huge in that show!

However, I still don't think Zane or Dickerson should've necessarily placed ahead of Mike.  Frank looked drawn, thin and flat, and Chris was shredded but had pathetic biceps, droopy pecs and was just *small*.  Mike takes them in the front biceps and side poses without question, IMO.  Front lat, I'm unsure -- probably Frank, then Mike, then Chris.  Ab/thigh, I'd favor Mentzer again:  better abs than Chris, and better legs than Frank.

Chris and Frank ought to take the rear biceps, though.  The asymmetry in Mentzer's upper back/lower-trap region was always a weakness.  And yes, his rear lat wasn't good (seems like they all lacked in that pose), but I don't know if the other two were any better.

But again, by no metric I can imagine Mentzer beating Arnold.  That's every whiny HITer revisionists' history of the event.  And some other guys probably deserved to whip Mike in that show.  I just don't see that a smaller than usual Zane and ripped but highly flawed Chris were among them, that's all.

[Humble Narcissist]

No argument about Roger Walker.  He was huge in that show!

However, I still don't think Zane or Dickerson should've necessarily placed ahead of Mike.  Frank looked drawn, thin and flat, and Chris was shredded but had pathetic biceps, droopy pecs and was just *small*.  Mike takes them in the front biceps and side poses without question, IMO.  Front lat, I'm unsure -- probably Frank, then Mike, then Chris.  Ab/thigh, I'd favor Mentzer again:  better abs than Chris, and better legs than Frank.

Chris and Frank ought to take the rear biceps, though.  The asymmetry in Mentzer's upper back/lower-trap region was always a weakness.  And yes, his rear lat wasn't good (seems like they all lacked in that pose), but I don't know if the other two were any better.

But again, by no metric I can imagine Mentzer beating Arnold.  That's every whiny HITer revisionists' history of the event.  And some other guys probably deserved to whip Mike in that show.  I just don't see that a smaller than usual Zane and ripped but highly flawed Chris were among them, that's all.

The Mentzer fanboys are a cult.

[Titus Pullo]

The Mentzer fanboys are a cult.

Yes, I know.  Apparently their new Messiah is John Little.

[Humble Narcissist]

Yes, I know.  Apparently their new Messiah is John Little.

Pretty sure my comments are banned on his Youtube channel. They show up for me but no one ever responds even when I ask direct questions. They are true believers.

[Rmj11]

Yes, I know.  Apparently their new Messiah is John Little.

John Little the liar who was once Mentzer's secret gay lover.

[Rmj11]

Pretty sure my comments are banned on his Youtube channel. They show up for me but no one ever responds even when I ask direct questions. They are true believers.

Yep. Same with me. I've asked Little for actual evidence of Mentzer's theories actually working and Little couldn't provide any. All he does is upload videos of Mentzer who regurgitates Ayn Rand nonsense and the hitters are in awe of all this bs. The comments in the vids from the mentzer cult are hilarious and delusional. Most claiming that mentzer was a genuis and "ahead of his time" even though exercise science disproves mentzer's flawed theories. Little and the mentzer cult are still stuck in the 70's.

Little is a typical hitter who has to try and revise the facts to suit his ideology. He once even lied about Steve Reeves claiming that Reeves tried the hit one set to failure and gained an additional 30 pounds of muscle. Ridiculous. There's no evidence to back up Little's claims. Little also likes to believe that the Colorado Scam was legit.

Little is a coward though, he doesn't like to be called out on his bs and quickly bans anyone that provides actual facts that dismisses his deluded belief in hit.

[Humble Narcissist]

Yep. Same with me. I've asked Little for actual evidence of Mentzer's theories actually working and Little couldn't provide any. All he does is upload videos of Mentzer who regurgitates Ayn Rand nonsense and the hitters are in awe of all this bs. The comments in the vids from the mentzer cult are hilarious and delusional. Most claiming that mentzer was a genuis and "ahead of his time" even though exercise science disproves mentzer's flawed theories. Lityle and the mentzer cult are still stuck in the 70's.

Little is a typical hitter who has to try and revise the facts to suit his ideology. He once even lied about Steve Reeves claiming that Reeves tried the hit one set to failure and gained an additional 30 pounds of muscle. Ridiculous. There's no evidence yo back up Little's claims. Little also likes to believe that the Colorado Scam was legit.

Little is a coward though, he doesn't like to be called out on his bs and quickly bans anyone that provides actual facts that dismisses his deluded belief in hit.

I actually linked some studies proving HIT is not as effective as other training systems and it got everyone over there in a tizzie and since then my comments get nothing. I call it (s)HIT training. 20 years ago I actually trained like that and after lots of experience going nowhere dropped it.

[Rmj11]

I actually linked some studies proving HIT is not as effective as other training systems and it got everyone over there in a tizzie and since then my comments get nothing. I call it (s)HIT training. 20 years ago I actually trained like that and after lots of experience going nowhere dropped it.

Yep. Hitters can't handle actual facts about hit and mentzer. Little will quickly block anyone if they challenge his beliefs with actual real world facts. His whole channel is just a mentzer echo chamber. The commentary their are just pure mentzer worship and they won't have a bad word said about that dead con man.

[Rmj11]

More John Little bs. I could debunk Little easily if he wasn't afraid to debate...because he knows he would lose. Just check out the comments by the hit cultists from this vid. They're hilarious due to their delusions.

[Humble Narcissist]

It's funny how Mentzer describes volume trainers in that video exactly as Mentzer fan boys actually are today.

[dj181]

the way he trained in the late 70s is today's actual volume training LOL

he did 3-6 sets til failure per muscle group twice a week

[beakdoctor]

Yes, I know.  Apparently their new Messiah is John Little.

It's actually a bit sad. He's the worlds foremost mentzer historian. Meaning he collects everything he possibly can about a burnt out bodybuilding drug addict turned homeless mentally ill drug addict.

He talks about mentzer as if everything mentzer said should be engraved on a stone tablet.

If I were a betting man Id wager that little has at least one of mentzers posing trunks encased in glass. He really does come across that pathetic.

[The Scott]

I remember watching Mike, Ray and Casey training at Gold's and they trained the way they had claimed to in the magazines.  It was brutal.

I was caught up in it back in the 70s because I was spending hours in the gym and wanted more of a life outside it (I would later get that by chucking all my magazines and going back to school and working toward getting better and better employement).

It kinda worked for a very short period but then I stagnated.  In retrospect, it was like "Dinosaur Training" in that I enjoyed it but when I bought his final book and did it exactly as outlined I beat myself up so badly that it took a week or more to recover from a 10 or so minute session of maybe three total sets.  And I still didn't get the results I expected.   And then my little pea brain figured it out...

Steroids.  Lots of steroids.  Mike himself admitted as much in an interview years ago when asked if he took steroids he replied (paraphrased), "Oh yeah!  Tons of 'em!".

Any form of training works when you have sufficient steroidal "assistance".  If I had taken a few Dianabol I really think I would have experienced tremendous muscular growth and increased strength across the board.   I know because I knew several friends that took Dianabol and they said it was fantastic.   

Menzter wasn't dumb but he was ultimately delusional and that was most likely due to firstly his steroid use, which made him believe he was a genetic marvel.   The second factor in this equation was his use of amphetamines which I think fried his mind.  My youngest brother had been a meth addict and that shit will turn your mind to SHIT.

In summation I think that Mentzer was right in his earliest training outline for "Heavy Duty" (more so when taking steroids) and later after his mind literally prolapsed from amphetamines and he could only recall his results when  on steroids and subsequently went further off the reservation and finally jumped off the pier, if you will. 

Training is NOT rocket science.  If it were then that would explain all those silly supplement advertisements with bodybuilders wearing lab coats...LOL!

[keanu]

I remember watching Mike, Ray and Casey training at Gold's and they trained the way they had claimed to in the magazines.  It was brutal.

I was caught up in it back in the 70s because I was spending hours in the gym and wanted more of a life outside it (I would later get that by chucking all my magazines and going back to school and working toward getting better and better employement).

It kinda worked for a very short period but then I stagnated.  In retrospect, it was like "Dinosaur Training" in that I enjoyed it but when I bought his final book and did it exactly as outlined I beat myself up so badly that it took a week or more to recover from a 10 or so minute session of maybe three total sets.  And I still didn't get the results I expected.   And then my little pea brain figured it out...

Steroids.  Lots of steroids.  Mike himself admitted as much in an interview years ago when asked if he took steroids he replied (paraphrased), "Oh yeah!  Tons of 'em!".

Any form of training works when you have sufficient steroidal "assistance".  If I had taken a few Dianabol I really think I would have experienced tremendous muscular growth and increased strength across the board.   I know because I knew several friends that took Dianabol and they said it was fantastic.   

Menzter wasn't dumb but he was ultimately delusional and that was most likely due to firstly his steroid use, which made him believe he was a genetic marvel.   The second factor in this equation was his use of amphetamines which I think fried his mind.  My youngest brother had been a meth addict and that shit will turn your mind to SHIT.

In summation I think that Mentzer was right in his earliest training outline for "Heavy Duty" (more so when taking steroids) and later after his mind literally prolapsed from amphetamines and he could only recall his results when  on steroids and subsequently went further off the reservation and finally jumped off the pier, if you will. 

Training is NOT rocket science.  If it were then that would explain all those silly supplement advertisements with bodybuilders wearing lab coats...LOL!

Mike was a psychology student who dropped out. Basic arts degree. He never went to med school. He claimed Heavy Duty was fact but it wasn't since Mike had not performed any scientific studies, never proved anything. If training 15 minutes every 5 or 7 days got the best results wouldn't everyone be doing it? Why is Heavy Duty ineffective?

1) Training to failure and beyond is detrimental. Most people can't recover and fade over time look and feel much worse.

2) Not enough volume.

3) Not enough frequency of hitting muscles.

4) Not enough rest between sets.

Mike was out to make a buck. He lied constantly about his clients gaining 30lbs of muscles in a few months and increasing strength levels by absurd amounts. He did sound convincing. At some point I went with the research but I believed parts of his BS for a long time.

Don't waste your time with Heavy Duty.

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[keanu]

Training is NOT rocket science.  If it were then that would explain all those silly supplement advertisements with bodybuilders wearing lab coats...LOL!

True but the science sure helps. We can look so deep into what is happening in the body these days. Takes all the guess work out. 

[Humble Narcissist]

I remember watching Mike, Ray and Casey training at Gold's and they trained the way they had claimed to in the magazines.  It was brutal.

I was caught up in it back in the 70s because I was spending hours in the gym and wanted more of a life outside it (I would later get that by chucking all my magazines and going back to school and working toward getting better and better employement).

It kinda worked for a very short period but then I stagnated.  In retrospect, it was like "Dinosaur Training" in that I enjoyed it but when I bought his final book and did it exactly as outlined I beat myself up so badly that it took a week or more to recover from a 10 or so minute session of maybe three total sets.  And I still didn't get the results I expected.   And then my little pea brain figured it out...

Steroids.  Lots of steroids.  Mike himself admitted as much in an interview years ago when asked if he took steroids he replied (paraphrased), "Oh yeah!  Tons of 'em!".

Any form of training works when you have sufficient steroidal "assistance".  If I had taken a few Dianabol I really think I would have experienced tremendous muscular growth and increased strength across the board.   I know because I knew several friends that took Dianabol and they said it was fantastic.   

Menzter wasn't dumb but he was ultimately delusional and that was most likely due to firstly his steroid use, which made him believe he was a genetic marvel.   The second factor in this equation was his use of amphetamines which I think fried his mind.  My youngest brother had been a meth addict and that shit will turn your mind to SHIT.

In summation I think that Mentzer was right in his earliest training outline for "Heavy Duty" (more so when taking steroids) and later after his mind literally prolapsed from amphetamines and he could only recall his results when  on steroids and subsequently went further off the reservation and finally jumped off the pier, if you will. 

Training is NOT rocket science.  If it were then that would explain all those silly supplement advertisements with bodybuilders wearing lab coats...LOL!

The Greeks and Romans knew how to build muscle thousands of years ago.

[beakdoctor]

Odd. I don't recall anyone referring to Jos as the Master Blaster outside of his own publication's  M&F and Flex.

[Humble Narcissist]

Odd. I don't recall anyone referring to Jos as the Master Blaster outside of his own publication's  M&F and Flex.

Sounds like a porn star's name.

[stingray]

Mike was a psychology student who dropped out. Basic arts degree. He never went to med school. He claimed Heavy Duty was fact but it wasn't since Mike had not performed any scientific studies, never proved anything. If training 15 minutes every 5 or 7 days got the best results wouldn't everyone be doing it? Why is Heavy Duty ineffective?

1) Training to failure and beyond is detrimental. Most people can't recover and fade over time look and feel much worse.

2) Not enough volume.

3) Not enough frequency of hitting muscles.

4) Not enough rest between sets.

Mike was out to make a buck. He lied constantly about his clients gaining 30lbs of muscles in a few months and increasing strength levels by absurd amounts. He did sound convincing. At some point I went with the research but I believed parts of his BS for a long time.

Don't waste your time with Heavy Duty.

but didnt arnold train to failure? quote
The last three or four reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what happens

[dj181]

the way he trained in the late 70s is today's actual volume training LOL

he did 3-6 sets til failure per muscle group twice a week

he trained pretty correctly here

each muscle was trained twice a week and 6-12 work sets per muscle per week

big mike isrealtel APPROVED!!!

[keanu]

but didnt arnold train to failure? quote
The last three or four reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what happens

Arnold didn't train to failure most of the time. You don't see him failing and then some spotters yanking weights off him. Most sets he has a couple of reps left. His main training partner Franco published to always stop 2 reps from failure and leave some in reserve. If you are on a ton of gear you can train any method and gain.

Training is real simple, make adjustments based on reality. Get out some tape, measure your bodyparts. Look at the bodyfat. Where is your strength at? What is your mood like? Is your appetite strong? What is going on with your sleep? Can you outlift the majority of gym members who don't know what they are doing by a good margin?

[keanu]

It kinda worked for a very short period but then I stagnated.  In retrospect, it was like "Dinosaur Training" in that I enjoyed it but when I bought his final book and did it exactly as outlined I beat myself up so badly that it took a week or more to recover from a 10 or so minute session of maybe three total sets.  And I still didn't get the results I expected.   And then my little pea brain figured it out...

Steroids.  Lots of steroids.  Mike himself admitted as much in an interview years ago when asked if he took steroids he replied (paraphrased), "Oh yeah!  Tons of 'em!".

 

I thought I discovered the Holy Grail when I read Mentzer on the sundeck of my parent's home more than 30 years ago. The man was an amazing writer. I quit his Heavy Duty training within a few months and started tweaking it around. I was getting weaker, looking worse. I kept some of his training principles like training to failure for many more years. It wasn't until I threw everything out and started analyzing every muscle study I could find (hundreds), that I train the way I do today.

[Wayne Tracker]

Mike original workout "Heavy Duty" was full body three days a week with about 5 sets per BP so about 15 sets a week which is nothing like the insane routines  he's was advocating in the years before he died

The worst of his training ideas was that you had to train to failure and beyond as the ONLY way to build muscle
If you weren't going to failure and beyond it was pointless to even be working out and you might as well stay home and jerk off

[stingray]

Arnold didn't train to failure most of the time. You don't see him failing and then some spotters yanking weights off him. Most sets he has a couple of reps left. His main training partner Franco published to always stop 2 reps from failure and leave some in reserve. If you are on a ton of gear you can train any method and gain.

Training is real simple, make adjustments based on reality. Get out some tape, measure your bodyparts. Look at the bodyfat. Where is your strength at? What is your mood like? Is your appetite strong? What is going on with your sleep? Can you outlift the majority of gym members who don't know what they are doing by a good margin?

Then how do we know what training systems work when i do beleive your statement that you can take gear and train any method and you will still gain weight?