Author Topic: Covid Lab Leak Theory  (Read 16011 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2026, 03:34:37 PM »
I don't "believe" that I make decisions based facts, evidence, and common sense.  That's literally what I do.  I follow the facts wherever they lead.  And I've said things on this board that probably everyone at some point has disagreed with.

I've never said I'm always correct.  I'm not.  That is a straw man.  I've been wrong about a lot of things.  I change my mind all the time.  Like about Trump.  I devoted an entire thread to tracking how badly I thought he would lose in 2016, using the fact that the majority of primary votes went to other candidates.  And we see how that prediction turned out. 

Regarding Covid, why would you place any stock in the "consensus" when they were so incredibly dishonest and so wrong about the pandemic?  I knew nothing about pandemics before Covid.  When I started listening to the unbiased experts, I learned so much.  And a lot of what I learned conflicted with the "consensus."

A refresher:

- Fauci treated Covid the same way he treated HIV and AIDS when it first developed.  Do you remember how he and the "consensus" tried to tell us it was not a gay disease and that everyone had the same risk?  That was a lie.  Just like with Covid, there was a discreet group of people at risk:  people having gay/anal sex, intravenous drug users, people getting blood transfusions, and people with third world health immune systems.   

- They did the same thing with Covid.  Covid (as a deadly virus) targeted discreet groups:  the elderly with comorbidites, the obese, and immuno-comprmised people.  It was lethal for those groups.  For everyone else, it was largely like the cold or flu.  My first clue that we were overstating the risk was when the study first came out in Italy (?) where the average age of people dying was over 80.  Then the people dying here early on were in nursing homes. 

- The "consensus" cooked the books regarding the death toll, where people who died "with" Covid were listed as dying "from" Covid.

- I learned that kids are not effective transmitters of the virus and do not get seriously ill or die from it.  Minuscule numbers.  So we should have never shut down the schools.

- I learned that when a virus is out in the community, lockdowns are ineffective.  So we should not have shut down the country, even though the "consensus" said we should.  Remember 14 days to slow the spread?

- I learned that natural immunity was as or more effective than the vaccines, despite what the "consensus" said.

- I learned that the lockdowns interfered with herd immunity, which actually made the pandemic last longer.

- I listened while people from the CDC, to talking heads, to the POTUS lied to us and said the vaccines would stop the spread of the virus. 

- I heard Facui and the "consensus" tell us that masks would stop the spread of the virus.  Wrong.

- I watched while they tried to force essentially the entire country to take an experimental vaccine, when that vaccine neither stopped you from catching nor spreading the virus.

- I heard the "consensus" tell us that six feet of social distancing was required and based on science, only to later learn that they pulled six feet out of their rear end, that effective social distancing was more like about 30 feet, and they picked 6 because it would be easier to sell to the public.

- I saw how Fauci and his gangsters tried to censor anything that contradicted their narrative.  And now we see exactly why he wanted a pardon.

There is more, but given this, why in God's name would I give any credence to the "consensus"? 

I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at the consensus, but you still have to think for yourself and see if what they are saying makes sennse.  For example, a friend of mine who actually recently passed away was mad at me during the pandemic because she said that we had a crisis in Hawaii with Covid patients being quarantined, taking up hospital space, and that we only had about 500 ventilators in the entire state.  (Her husband is a doctor.). When I asked how many Covid patients are actually using ventilators, she lost her mind, started telling me "you're not a doctor," etc.  I said:  "yeah, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."  That didn't go over too well.  ;D. The point was:  how could the limited number of ventilators be a crisis unless they were actually being monopolized by Covid patients. 

But I digress.  If you actually look at the evidence and think about this logically it's hard to come any other reasonable conclusion.

I noticed that of all things you learned about COVID, you did not mention that you learned and decided that the COVID virus came from a Wuhan Lab leak and not zoonosis. I thought that is what we were discussing.

We were also discussing consensus. A consensus is a general or widespread agreement among a group of people. People can agree about something or reach consensus and they can be wrong. 

The commonalities with the initial reaction to the COVID and HIV viruses could be applied to all new diseases/viruses especially when they reach pandemic proportions. You are correct, the so called "experts" got many things about this pandemic wrong, this is to be expected. They and the public worldwide likely over-reacted to the COVID virus. For many folks, the overreaction was the result of fear of the unknown. Most people believe it is better to be safe than sorry. This is entirely normal. evolutionary psychology, human biology, and sociology all explain why people disproportionately overreact to unknown health threats.


   

   

Necrosis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2026, 02:30:01 AM »


So much for that

"SARS-CoV-2 has continued to evolve as it moves through the population, and we have learned more about its pathogenicity and transmission determinants. As previously commented in The Lancet Microbe, one of these determinants is the unusual furin cleavage site (FCS) on its spike protein.1 While it has been proposed that the FCS might have been engineered, it is becoming clearer that natural selection is, in fact, the driving factor in its acquisition and functionality, through recombination and epistasis.
Central to this concept is the highly dynamic molecular nature of the SARS-CoV-2 spike, which is synthesised as a trimer with its three receptor (ACE2)-binding domains initially in a closed conformation. When an FCS is present, the spike encounters the intracellular protease furin on its way out of the cell, which processes and separates the S1 and S2 subdomains, imparting a relaxation in the protein and allowing one or more receptor-binding domains to flip up—the open conformation—markedly increasing receptor engagement and driving the transmissibility of the virus.2 The spike thus reversibly samples its open-trimer conformations and the FCS promotes this, but not exclusively.3 However, this sampling comes at some cost; if there are too many “up” domains the spike becomes unstable, which poses a problem as the virus can now shed S1 and lose transmissibility. The virus therefore exists in a transmission window, but its FCS has functionally stayed in place—as for Leigh Van Valen's so-called Red Queen hypothesis—through sequence changes elsewhere in the spike. For SARS-CoV-2, the best known of these changes was D614G, which arose and became embedded within lineage B just a few months after the initial outbreak. 614G markedly increases infectivity and is a “gateway mutation” upon which all the specific FCS changes in the variants of concern were built.4 Lineage A viruses seemed to have solved the problem slightly differently (Q613H)—eg, with the A.23.1 variant5—and other gateway mutations have followed suit (H655Y).4 Eight of the latest omicron variants have all three (Q613H, D614G, and H655Y).6 These gateway mutations cooperate epistatically to modulate the problematic FCS.
The FCS problem is well illustrated by the rapidity with which it is often lost upon virus adaptation to cell culture, both through point mutations and deletions.7 In reality, the FCS is not just an on-off switch but is highly regulated, and has in fact been incrementally optimising itself through mutations at the FCS in the major variants of concern—alpha, delta, and omicron—allowing the virus to stay within its transmission window (although in reality easing forward—ie, not quite the “same place” as with the Red Queen).
SARS-CoV-2 is not unique in this regard and many other betacoronaviruses have an FCS that is highly adaptable. Laboratory strains of HCoV-OC43 have point mutations in the FCS, presumably to also gain stability, and as the coronaviruses causing seasonal endemic infections are further explored, there are clear examples of genetic changes that structurally position the flexible FCS loop to better engage its furin activator. This is demonstrated in a genotype I virus with a four amino acid downstream insertion;8 whether this is truly a pathogenesis determinant or a transmission determinant remains to be seen. Recent work on HCoV-HKU1 has also shown the highly dynamic nature of the open-closed conformation of its spike, but in this case with its natural FCS removed for protein expression and the conformational changes regulated by sialoglycan binding.9
The spike is adaptable and the FCS clearly makes a difference, but—in the end—it is no smoking gun."


The thing continued to show adaptations that were novel- were they engineering it in real time? over the months? and releasing each one?

All this is based on a book by two people, which has been discredited

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1995820X23000470?via%3Dihub

these are naturally occurring in bats, furin sites- zoonosis....


Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2026, 05:24:22 PM »
Wow! This is a lot to take in. Most of this information is way, way over my head, but I do understand the basics of the article. At the least, bats played a significant role in spreading the virus.

The truth is, I never much liked bats even though they are a protected species not only in the U.S but in many other countries as well. As best I can remember, I have not seen any bats in the area. And yet they are fairly common in Western Oregon. I have mostly lived in homes that were and are near the Willamette River over the past 60 years. Bats are known to set up roosts in people's attics, especially near bodies of water. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #103 on: Today at 02:41:54 PM »
LOL

extensive genomic analysis shows no signs of engineering, there are several hallmarks.

Covid has been around for a long time, many variations, the jump from animals to humans is exactly how other viruses emerged and were more lethal- ebola, HIV, sars etc etc..

There goes two of your "arguments"


I died at the HIV argument, well done.

I didn't make any arguments.  And, unsurprisingly, you don't understand the point about the jump from animals to humans.  It's not that the jump doesn't happen.  It's that it takes numerous iterations of this jump before it becomes lethal.  Covid skipped that process.  I learned that by listening to epidemiologists.  They know their stuff.  You don't. 

I don't expect you to understand the HIV info.  Were you even alive during that period?  Do you know what Fauci was telling the public?  These are rhetorical questions, because you repeatedly demonstrate that what you know about subjects being discussed here can fit in a thimble.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #104 on: Today at 02:43:33 PM »
I noticed that of all things you learned about COVID, you did not mention that you learned and decided that the COVID virus came from a Wuhan Lab leak and not zoonosis. I thought that is what we were discussing.

We were also discussing consensus. A consensus is a general or widespread agreement among a group of people. People can agree about something or reach consensus and they can be wrong. 

The commonalities with the initial reaction to the COVID and HIV viruses could be applied to all new diseases/viruses especially when they reach pandemic proportions. You are correct, the so called "experts" got many things about this pandemic wrong, this is to be expected. They and the public worldwide likely over-reacted to the COVID virus. For many folks, the overreaction was the result of fear of the unknown. Most people believe it is better to be safe than sorry. This is entirely normal. evolutionary psychology, human biology, and sociology all explain why people disproportionately overreact to unknown health threats.


   

   

What I did was explain why I don't care about the "consensus" when it comes to Covid. 

This virus came from a lab.  That's what the evidence shows.  That's what common shows. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #105 on: Today at 02:44:30 PM »
& in my opinion it was leaked on purpose

I actually don't rule that out, although I think it is more likely an accident.  The safety protocols in that lab were terrible. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #106 on: Today at 02:45:26 PM »
Every study and paper written leaves open the possibility of lab leak, no matter how hard the study tries to tie it to animal/human transmission. They all slip a line or two in there about lab leak being a possibility. Some people are too stupid to understand what that means.

There are many people unwilling to accept that folks in high-level positions lied to them.

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #107 on: Today at 02:51:04 PM »
Liar.

MAZE
@mazemoore

Get the vaccine so you don't transmit the virus to other people.

A year later...

We had no clue if the vaccine stopped transmission. We never even tested for that.

Science. 👌😜

https://x.com/mazemoore/status/2058735142844150029

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #108 on: Today at 02:54:42 PM »
What I did was explain why I don't care about the "consensus" when it comes to Covid. 

This virus came from a lab.  That's what the evidence shows.  That's what common shows.

BTW, I never stated nor implied that a consensus meant anything other than a general agreement, shared opinion, or collective judgment among a group of people. A group can reach consensus and still be factually wrong. But to be clear, in this case, it is my belief that the consensus got the cause of the COVID pandemic right. You are welcome to believe whatever you want about how COVID came into being.

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #109 on: Today at 02:59:23 PM »
BTW, I never stated nor implied that a consensus meant anything other than a general agreement, shared opinion, or collective judgment among a group of people. A group can reach consensus and still be factually wrong. But to be clear, in this case, it is my belief that the consensus got the cause of the COVID pandemic right. You are welcome to believe whatever you want about how COVID came into being.

As are you.  I just follow the facts and use my common sense. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #110 on: Today at 03:09:30 PM »
I didn't make any arguments.  And, unsurprisingly, you don't understand the point about the jump from animals to humans.  It's not that the jump doesn't happen.  It's that it takes numerous iterations of this jump before it becomes lethal.  Covid skipped that process.  I learned that by listening to epidemiologists.  They know their stuff.  You don't. 

I don't expect you to understand the HIV info.  Were you even alive during that period?  Do you know what Fauci was telling the public?  These are rhetorical questions, because you repeatedly demonstrate that what you know about subjects being discussed here can fit in a thimble.   

Epidemiologists and virologists overwhelmingly agree that the COVID-19 pandemic was caused by a natural zoonotic spillover, while acknowledging a minority of scientists maintain that an accidental laboratory leak is also a plausible explanation.

It is also highly unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 was released from a laboratory by accident because no laboratory had the virus nor did its genetic sequence exist in any sequence database before its initial GenBank deposition (early January 2020).

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7470595/

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #111 on: Today at 03:11:29 PM »
As are you.  I just follow the facts and use my common sense.

BTW, although common sense is highly accurate for basic, physical, and plainly worded realities. However, as situations become more complex or abstract, it becomes unreliable. It frequently fails in areas requiring specialized knowledge, statistical probability, or deep critical thinking.

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #112 on: Today at 05:39:33 PM »
Epidemiologists and virologists overwhelmingly agree that the COVID-19 pandemic was caused by a natural zoonotic spillover, while acknowledging a minority of scientists maintain that an accidental laboratory leak is also a plausible explanation.

It is also highly unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 was released from a laboratory by accident because no laboratory had the virus nor did its genetic sequence exist in any sequence database before its initial GenBank deposition (early January 2020).

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7470595/

And the intelligence community says it likely originated a lab. 

Citing articles from 2020 is like giving me clips of Fauci saying the vaccine will stop the transmission of the virus.

We could trade articles all day:  https://zenodo.org/records/4477081#.YBd8-i1h3T8

But one thing I'm not doing is relying some kind of AI to tell me what to think. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #113 on: Today at 05:41:44 PM »
BTW, although common sense is highly accurate for basic, physical, and plainly worded realities. However, as situations become more complex or abstract, it becomes unreliable. It frequently fails in areas requiring specialized knowledge, statistical probability, or deep critical thinking.

Meh.  You never need to check your common sense at the door.  For example, the fact the outbreak happened right where a lab with poor security was doing gain of function research isn't a science-based reason for concluding that the virus originated in a lab.  But you really have to turn off the logic part of your brain to not, at a minimum, consider this to be one important factor for lab origination. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #114 on: Today at 06:04:09 PM »
Look at this.  Just outright lying to the public.  Revisionist history. 

MAZE
@mazemoore

In 2025 Sanjay Gupta said it was a mistake for people to claim that the vaccine stopped infection and transmission. He said other people made those claims but that he never did.

As you can see in this video, Gupta is a liar and a fraud.

https://x.com/mazemoore/status/2059074791399694826

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #115 on: Today at 06:56:10 PM »
And the intelligence community says it likely originated a lab. 

Citing articles from 2020 is like giving me clips of Fauci saying the vaccine will stop the transmission of the virus.

We could trade articles all day:  https://zenodo.org/records/4477081#.YBd8-i1h3T8

But one thing I'm not doing is relying some kind of AI to tell me what to think.

Did you try this link before you posted it?

Dos Equis

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #116 on: Today at 07:00:29 PM »
Did you try this link before you posted it?

I cut and pasted the link.  It originated here: https://zenodo.org/records/4477081#.YBd8-i1h3T8

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #117 on: Today at 07:02:17 PM »
Did you try this link before you posted it?

Fixed.

chaos

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #118 on: Today at 07:24:33 PM »
I didn't make any arguments.  And, unsurprisingly, you don't understand the point about the jump from animals to humans.  It's not that the jump doesn't happen.  It's that it takes numerous iterations of this jump before it becomes lethal.  Covid skipped that process.  I learned that by listening to epidemiologists.  They know their stuff.  You don't. 

I don't expect you to understand the HIV info.  Were you even alive during that period?  Do you know what Fauci was telling the public?  These are rhetorical questions, because you repeatedly demonstrate that what you know about subjects being discussed here can fit in a thimble.   
Some people just don't understand the evolution of a man made and leaked virus.
Some men, you just can't reach.

So you get what we had here last week -- which is the way he wants it.

Well, he gets it.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Grape Ape

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #119 on: Today at 07:33:04 PM »
DOE and FBI say lab leak
Y

chaos

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #120 on: Today at 07:37:18 PM »
DOE and FBI say lab leak
There's so much info out there pointing to an engineered virus that it's pretty telling that certain people will discredit the idea with no evidence to support their opinion.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Primemuscle

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Re: Covid Lab Leak Theory
« Reply #121 on: Today at 08:15:26 PM »
I cut and pasted the link.  It originated here: https://zenodo.org/records/4477081#.YBd8-i1h3T8

Thanks for doing this. I have now read it did a little research on Dr. Steven Quay.

Dr. Quay has been a prominent advocate for the SARS-CoV-2 lab-leak hypothesis, since 2020, about year after the first known case.

Dr. Quay’s conclusions are highly controversial and largely rejected by mainstream evolutionary virologists.

Dr. Quay is not a professional virologist.

Most established evolutionary biologists and virologists dispute his findings.

Steven Quay said in his opening remarks to members of the subcommittee on the coronavirus crisis, “In natural zoonoses the animal is in nature, a cave, a farm, or a market. The infected human comes in contact with that animal.
 
For lab-acquired zoonoses the animal is in a laboratory, or in cells from an animal in a petri dish and the human works in the lab.”  So, in effect he is acknowledging zoonoses, just not that it also it could have happened outside the lab.

That the earliest known patients were infected with the "earliest virus" is debatable. Peer-reviewed genomic studies imply that the earliest known cases started from the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market.

Most likely where and how the virus started is neither absolutely provable. However, the first cases were confirmed to be infected with SARS-CoV-2 which is the coronavirus strain which causes the infectious disease COVID-19 responsible for the global pandemic.

I will say that in my opinion, after reading Dr. Quay’s testimony to the subcommittee, some of what he reported is fairly compelling. Not that my opinion is worth much since I am not an expert on COVID, how, or where it started.