Author Topic: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution  (Read 29569 times)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2009, 08:00:34 AM »
::)

You owned only yourself here, and you are coming off as an angry, uneducated, misinformed, under medicated psycho. 

Next time it might work out better just to answer my questions, without the insults, without the meltdowns, and without going psycho on me.  That way I can understand your point and answer your questions, and make my point more clear, if that were possible.

Good day, Hugo!
hahaha!  what was your point in that post ;)  some reason you are so dead set againt expanding ? ;)

loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2009, 08:55:46 AM »
hahaha!  what was your point in that post ;)  some reason you are so dead set againt expanding ? ;)

Yes

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2009, 08:59:49 AM »
I hate the State.

loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2009, 09:00:33 AM »
El perro rojo...

Que?  Que es el perro rojo?   ;D

loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2009, 09:18:59 AM »
BBC News
Tuesday, 19 May 2009


The fossil, nicknamed Ida, is claimed to be a "missing link" between today's higher primates - monkeys, apes and humans - and more distant relatives.
 
But some independent experts, awaiting an opportunity to see the new fossil, are sceptical of the claim.

And they have been critical of the hype surrounding the presentation of Ida
...

...In addition, Ida bears "a close resemblance to ourselves" he said, with nails instead of claws, a grasping hand and an opposable thumb - like humans and some other primates. But he said some aspects of the teeth indicate she is not a direct ancestor - more of an "aunt" than a "grandmother".

"She belongs to the group from which higher primates and human beings developed but my impression is she is not on the direct line."

Independent experts are keen to see the new fossil but somewhat sceptical of any claim that it could be "a missing link".

Dr Henry Gee, a senior editor at the journal Nature, said the term itself was misleading and that the scientific community would need to evaluate its significance.

"It's extremely nice to have a new find and it will be well-studied," he said. But he added that it was not likely to be in the same league as major discoveries such as "Flores man" or feathered dinosaurs.

Dr Chris Beard, curator of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History and author of The Hunt for the Dawn Monkey, said he was "awestruck" by the publicity machine surrounding the new fossil.

He argued that it could damage the popularisation of science if the creature was not all that it was hyped up to be.

Dr Beard has not yet seen scientific details of the find but said that it would be very nice to have a beautiful new fossil from the Eocene and that Ida would be "a welcome new addition" to the world of early primates.

But he added: "I would be absolutely dumbfounded if it turns out to be a potential ancestor to humans."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8057465.stm

loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2009, 09:23:09 AM »
Brian Switek, while describing the fossil as spectacularly complete and "the first time a fossil primate has been found exhibiting such extraordinary preservation," deplores the sensationalist coverage and a lack of adequate research in the published paper to back claims that it is an ancestor of the earliest anthropoids.

http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2009/05/poor_poor_ida_or_overselling_a.php

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2009, 09:33:45 AM »
Que?  Que es el perro rojo?   ;D

The red dog.... :o
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Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2009, 09:40:01 AM »
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Hedgehog

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2009, 09:47:47 AM »


3.  I thought I read "Lucy" was proven to be a fraud?


Where did you read that?
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loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2009, 09:54:08 AM »
The red dog.... :o

Si, pero porque dices el perro rojo?  Is that some kind of saying or expression that I might not know about?   :)

Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2009, 10:02:17 AM »
1. where does it say something about a beer mat? iono what it is but im curious...




Scientists say Ida - squashed to the thickness of a beer mat by the immense passage of time - is the most complete primate fossil ever found.


2. HUH?

"With her human-like nails instead of claws, and opposable big toes, she is placed at the very root of human evolution when early primates first developed features that would eventually develop into our own."



3. Lucy is absolutely not a fraud, she was in houston not but a yr or so ago at one of the museums here.


I read she was found w/o parts of her body that were added later to have her "fit" as a type of missing link.  ...maybe it was some other fossil I'm thinking of that was proven to be a fraud?

4. I havent read the entire thing, but its obvious that this article doesnt go into depth as to why this species is the missing link it simply gives a few reasons without going into much detail. Ill wait until i see it text books that have been peer reviewed or articles that go into more depth that are peer reviewed.

Thanks for your answer tmt!
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Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2009, 10:04:04 AM »
Where did you read that?

I think I first heard about it in college in an Anthropology class.  But like I said in my post to tony, maybe I'm thinking of another fossil?


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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2009, 10:05:03 AM »
Si, pero porque dices el perro rojo?  Is that some kind of saying or expression that I might not know about?   :)

Exactemente.
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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2009, 10:06:41 AM »
hahaha!

You really should cut your toe nails or see a doctor. It's not healthy.
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Hedgehog

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2009, 10:11:00 AM »
I think I first heard about it in college in an Anthropology class.  But like I said in my post to tony, maybe I'm thinking of another fossil?




Perhaps you were thinking of the Piltdown Man?

I remember reading about that one when I was a kid, and had to google for it. But it was a big one (fraud that is).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
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Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2009, 10:11:00 AM »
I think I first heard about it in college in an Anthropology class.  But like I said in my post to tony, maybe I'm thinking of another fossil?






www.forerunner.com
Lucy Fails Test As Missing Link
By Editorial Staff
Published December 2007

The science of finding and identifying man’s “prehistoric ancestors” runs in a predictable pattern. A press conference is announced, the discovery of an ape-like “ancestor” revealed with an artist’s impression of what the creature looks like, and the discoverer becomes famous, earning money on lecture tours. The actual fossil bones are scanty and the imagination runs wild. Later, when more evidence is found, the “ancestor” turns out to be totally human or totally ape. The Neanderthal man is an example of one find that turns out to be totally human. Once this find is removed as an intermediate form, you can expect another great discovery to save the day. The latest discovery is “Lucy.”

If you are of the impression that there are many intermediate ancestors to man, take notice of the following statement by an expert in the field: “The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed with room to spare inside a single coffin.“1

This is still an exaggeration since it concedes that various specimens are part of human evolution. Australopithecines, for example, are not considered transitional forms anymore, but a branch of the primate evolutionary tree. True transitional forms are still missing. (“Transitional forms” refer to those creatures which represent intermediate states of development for a supposed ape-like ancestor down to man.)

But what about Lucy? This most recent discovery in Africa is being heralded by many as a true transitional form, typically a replacement for the outmoded australopithecines. Could this be hasty judgment? Let’s examine the evidence. Lucy is a partial fossil skeleton, about the size of a chimpanzee, supposedly female, discovered by paleontologist Dr. Donald Johanson on November 30, 1974, in Hadar, Ethiopia. It is more complete than most fossil finds in that about 40 percent of the bones of the body have been recovered.

The age is “estimated” to be 3.2 million years. The find includes a V-shaped jaw, part of hip and large bones, and other assorted bones with very little skull fragments.2 There were other finds at the same location, other skulls and U-shaped jawbones.

What evidence makes this creature a transitional form? According to Dr. Johanson, she walked upright! Her brain size is still small, ape-like in proportion, and most of the other features are predominantly ape-like. Some say that anatomically it is not different than a modern chimpanzee. The jaw, in particular, is distinct in that it is V-shaped, totally unlike human jaws.

And what evidence supports the idea that this creature walked upright? The angle that the upper leg bone makes with the lower leg bone at the knee. Looking head on, chimpanzee and gorilla legs have an angle of 0 degrees. Humans have an angle of about 9 degrees. If the angle is much greater it gives a “knocked kneed” condition in humans. Lucy and the australophithecines have a larger angle of about 15 degrees.3

Does this make her an upright walker? Present day orangutan and spider monkeys have the same angle as humans yet are extremely adept tree climbers. Some experts argue that the higher angle makes her a better climber.4 This appears to be a knee-jerk reaction rather than clear scientific thinking.

But hold on, the story gets better. Dr. Johanson gave a lecture at the University of Missouri in Kansas City, Nov. 20, 1986, on Lucy and why he thinks she is our ancestor. It included the ideas already mentioned and that Lucy’s femur and pelvis were more robust than most chimps and therefore, “could have” walked upright. After the lecture he opened the meeting for questions. The audience of approximately 800 was quiet so some creationists asked questions. Roy Holt asked; “How far away from Lucy did you find the knee?” (The knee bones were actually discovered about a year earlier than the rest of Lucy). Dr. Johanson answered (reluctantly) about 200 feet lower (!) and two to three kilometers away (about 1.5 miles!). Continuing, Holt asked, “Then why are you sure it belonged to Lucy?” Dr. Johanson: “Anatomical similarity.” (Bears and dogs have anatomical similarities).

After the meeting, the creationists talked with Dr. Johanson and continued the questions. Dr. Johanson argued that homology (particularly DNA homology) is good proof for evolution. Tom Willis responded that “similar structures nearly always have similar plans, (like) similar bridges have similar blue prints.” After more discussion along this line, Dr. Johanson gave this amazing reply: “If you don’t believe homology, then you don’t believe evolution, and evolution is a fact!“5

What about Lucy? Just another partial find of some primate, put together to look like a human ancestor? Could the wide separation of Lucy’s bones (200 feet by 1 mile) better point to a catastrophic scenario – such as a world wide flood?

What about Dr. Johanson’s credibility? To his credit, he does talk about the tentative nature of this type of science. But another evolutionary writer says this about the search for humanlike (homonid) bones; “When it comes to finding a new ‘star’ as our animal ancestor, there is no business like bone business.“6

Tom Willis, the creationist who attended the U. of Missouri lecture puts it this way, “By any reasonable standards, Johanson misrepresented the evidence and he did so for money! A businessman who made claims like those to sell his products would be charged with fraud rather than be paid an honorarium.“7 Regardless of the motives involved for finding our evolutionary “ancestor”, we can be sure that when Lucy is acknowledged as an evolutionary dead end, there will be another press conference with another knee-jerk explanation.




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Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2009, 10:15:14 AM »
Perhaps you were thinking of the Piltdown Man?

I remember reading about that one when I was a kid, and had to google for it. But it was a big one (fraud that is).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

OK yeah!! Piltdown Man's explanation seems like more of what I remember...but I'm finding stuff that Lucy was kind of the same deal...but you're right, Piltdown seems more cut and dried as a fraud.
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Butterbean

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2009, 10:16:14 AM »
You really should cut your toe nails or see a doctor. It's not healthy.

Yes, I like to keep them just a bit shorter...like this:

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Dos Equis

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #68 on: May 20, 2009, 11:13:52 AM »
there is already an entire fossil record that show logical progression from one species to the next, if this is real it will simply fall in line.

Then why all the hoopla over this "missing link"? 

loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #69 on: May 20, 2009, 11:29:03 AM »
Then why all the hoopla over this "missing link"? 

Good question Beach Bum! 

Evolutionists seem to only tell the truth about the lack of "fossil missing links" once a new one is found.

Look at what they are saying now:

Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle.

Sir David Attenborough said
"The link they would have said up to now is missing - well it's no longer missing."

So are they admitting the evidence was missing until now, supposedly?

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2009, 12:08:23 PM »
Good question Beach Bum! 

Evolutionists seem to only tell the truth about the lack of "fossil missing links" once a new one is found.

Look at what they are saying now:

So are they admitting the evidence was missing until now, supposedly?

Didn't you used to believe in Evolution?
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loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #71 on: May 20, 2009, 12:12:58 PM »
Didn't you used to believe in Evolution?

I accept evolution.  It's a fact, microevolution that is.  I just don't accept evolutionary change above the level of species.

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2009, 01:03:13 PM »
I accept evolution.  It's a fact, microevolution that is.  I just don't accept evolutionary change above the level of species.

So you believe that tigers were always tigers and lions were always lions and they didn't descend from a common ancestor?
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loco

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2009, 01:09:51 PM »
So you believe that tigers were always tigers and lions were always lions and they didn't descend from a common ancestor?

If you tell me that they share a common ancestor, a felinae-like ancestor, I accept that.

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Re: Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2009, 01:22:33 PM »
If you tell me that they share a common ancestor, a felinae-like ancestor, I accept that.

OK, then why don't you accept that humans, chimps and gorillas also share a common ancestor?
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