Author Topic: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!  (Read 21405 times)

abc123

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2008, 02:58:23 AM »
its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release.  The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right.  There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences.   The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered. 

So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot? 

It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day.  I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat.  I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.

FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts.  But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol.  Are you interested?

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2008, 03:30:16 AM »
So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot? 

It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day.  I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat.  I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.

FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts.  But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol.  Are you interested?



it seems to me that it works to increase muscle size - but it shouldn't be any more effective than proper nutrient timing IMO.

can't you discuss milos's methodology here and leave out exact protocols ?
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Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2008, 08:03:32 AM »
So, you think that human use of insulin for bodybuilding is a complete waste of time and dangerous to boot? 

It's worked great for me, but I only use 20IU preworkout and then don't eat carbs the rest of the day.  I always just assumed that it allows me to eat and successully store more carbs around my workout that I would otherwise be able to eat.  I;ve always been very prone to fat gain from eating carbs until I started using insulin.

FWIW, Milos taught me how to use it and I'd be happy to discuss the methodology with you via PM just to get your thoughts.  But, please don;t repeat the protocol on the boards...not that you really care to anyway...lol.  Are you interested?

I'm not denying the anabolic effects of insulin.  I think its an extremely anabolic hormone from teh simple fact that cells must have glucose to carry out life function.  The thing is insulin doesn't distingish between fat or muscle.   I'm a big guy.  I've had people swear that i'm the size I am and able to handle the weights i do because I take insulin.  Are they correct?  Absolutely because if I didn't take insulin, I'd be dead.   

The fat promoting effects of insulin are one that are often overlooked by people posting online about it.   A well controlled diabetic (a person taking exogenous insulin) fights a constant battle to stay lean because of the exogenous insulin----this is a direct quote from my endocrinologist from the last appointment I had with him when we were discussing if I should drop back to a 308 and total ELITE there or push on as a SHW and get that ELITE total as  SHW RAW and in single ply and then start gradually trying to drop weight.   

I think the antiinsulin effects of supraphysiological doses of HGH, anabolic steroids and other drugs taken by bodybuilders, including the diets that they eat can lead to decreased insulin sensitivity.  This alone means that they can "get by" with self administration of a very dangerous hormone (if administered incorrectly).  They are borderline type II diabetic anyway, they just don't know it. 

I think the control mechanisms for the effects of insulin are very, very tight in the body in a healthy individual and I think that i often misunderstood or simply overlooked by people taking insulin to facilitate bodybuilding because they have to goal of "getting swole"  and they simply don't give a shit.   These are the same people that I'm firmly convinced would inject sterilized cow shit if you could get Milos and a select few others to tell them that it works.   

The power of placebo is immense, especially when you are dealing with such a powerful hormone like insulin that really have very subtle effects, but the individual taking it doesn't understand or cant comprehend that.   Think about it, in terms of insulin doses you are talking 20 U---20 one onehundreths of a CC vs testosterone doses people use upwards of 1000 mg--1 to 2 grams. Thats an immense dose difference.  So immense I also think its lost on some people.   You can get by taking 2 grams of Test.  You take 2 grams of insulin, and you will more than likely die---I say that because I'm sure theres probabl some online dipshit knowitall who'll post that they've take 5 grams of insulin and they are fine.   ::)


The other fact is that insulin can and will kill you if you overdose on it.   

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2008, 10:22:21 AM »
I'm not denying the anabolic effects of insulin.  I think its an extremely anabolic hormone from teh simple fact that cells must have glucose to carry out life function.  The thing is insulin doesn't distingish between fat or muscle.   I'm a big guy.  I've had people swear that i'm the size I am and able to handle the weights i do because I take insulin.  Are they correct?  Absolutely because if I didn't take insulin, I'd be dead.   

The fat promoting effects of insulin are one that are often overlooked by people posting online about it.   A well controlled diabetic (a person taking exogenous insulin) fights a constant battle to stay lean because of the exogenous insulin----this is a direct quote from my endocrinologist from the last appointment I had with him when we were discussing if I should drop back to a 308 and total ELITE there or push on as a SHW and get that ELITE total as  SHW RAW and in single ply and then start gradually trying to drop weight.   

I think the antiinsulin effects of supraphysiological doses of HGH, anabolic steroids and other drugs taken by bodybuilders, including the diets that they eat can lead to decreased insulin sensitivity.  This alone means that they can "get by" with self administration of a very dangerous hormone (if administered incorrectly).  They are borderline type II diabetic anyway, they just don't know it. 

I think the control mechanisms for the effects of insulin are very, very tight in the body in a healthy individual and I think that i often misunderstood or simply overlooked by people taking insulin to facilitate bodybuilding because they have to goal of "getting swole"  and they simply don't give a shit.   These are the same people that I'm firmly convinced would inject sterilized cow shit if you could get Milos and a select few others to tell them that it works.   

The power of placebo is immense, especially when you are dealing with such a powerful hormone like insulin that really have very subtle effects, but the individual taking it doesn't understand or cant comprehend that.   Think about it, in terms of insulin doses you are talking 20 U---20 one onehundreths of a CC vs testosterone doses people use upwards of 1000 mg--1 to 2 grams. Thats an immense dose difference.  So immense I also think its lost on some people.   You can get by taking 2 grams of Test.  You take 2 grams of insulin, and you will more than likely die---I say that because I'm sure theres probabl some online dipshit knowitall who'll post that they've take 5 grams of insulin and they are fine.   ::)


The other fact is that insulin can and will kill you if you overdose on it.   

I always enjoy reading your posts Vet.  You've got a ton of knowledge but you present it in a way that is easily understood.  Always a dash of humor too.  I guess I had forgotten that you are a diabetic as well.
In any case, please keep posting here, you are one of about 4 or 5 people that I trust as far as info and actually learn from their posts.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2008, 10:27:13 AM »
I agree with everything you wrote.  IMO part of the reason I don't get fat is simply carb timing and the use of short acting insulin. I only use Humalog, which is in and out in roughly 4 hours, whereas a diabetic uses insulin all day.

In my case I take Humalog first thing in the morning with a preworkout shake, train with another shake, drink my post workout shake and then wait 45 minutes before eating a solid carb/protein meal.  The rest of the day is simply protein, fibrous veggies and EFAs.

IMO the fact that I'm training certain muscles and blood flows directly to those locations is another part of the reason the carbs go there over fat.  IDK, but it works.

I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem.  If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.

Adding in GH, T3 and Anabolics, even at relatively low doses has a huge synergistic effect.  I recently jumped about 15lbs in weight and got leaner at the same time.  It was the first time I had used all those compounds at the same time so that's probably part of the reason I had such a good reaction.




StillTippin

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2008, 10:50:19 AM »
the main benefit from insulin isnt anabolism but anti catabolism.

You want to expand on that?  That goes against everything I've heard about insulin.  I'm by no means an expert on it, or even knowledgeable but I'd really like to hear that explained.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2008, 11:08:41 AM »
I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem.  If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.

This is pretty close to what I do as well.  I can put down around 300-400gs of carbs around my workout with Slin and have not put any fat on whatsoever.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2008, 11:16:51 AM »
are you running t3 or gh emmortal and if so at what dose and whats your weight bf% and height ?

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2008, 11:36:51 AM »
sure... ome basic stuff off the top of my head..

insulin halts the breakdown of nutrients. glycogen, fats, and proteins. there is a constant body process going on known as protein turnover or protein breakdown. during trainin this is elevated exponentially.


AAS mainly promote protein synthesis, and only weakly inhibit protein breakdown.

insulin mainly inhibits protein breakdown while only weakly promotes protein synthesis.

with elevated insulin throughout training, the natural process/reaction of elevated protein breakdown is halted, and thus you can actually be growing in the gym.


i can try to answer any more questions you have but i dont promise ill know the answers

 

Maybe this is a false statement, but I have heard people say that insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, moreso than testosterone.

Also, I would like to know how much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2008, 12:03:37 PM »
are you running t3 or gh emmortal and if so at what dose and whats your weight bf% and height ?

Yup was on 10ius of GH PWO with 50mcgs of T3 split 2x a day (25mcgs each dose).  Slin I was doing about 15ius PWO the last 2 weeks of a 4 week cycle.  I only do that protocol 3x a week on my big lifting days (back, legs, chest).  Next run I'll probably split the GH to 2x daily administration doing 5ius in the AM and 5ius PWO and throw some IGF in there at 40mcgs bi-laterally for PWO only.  I'm 5'11" at around 230lbs 11-12%.  On a 4 week cycle of that I put on about 8lbs coupled with test and deca, no orals.  I'd attribute a good amount of that to glycogen uptake in the muscles because I was constantly staying full.  I'm in my first week of being off from that and haven't dropped any weight.  I'll keep you posted if I do.  That was my second run with slin so I'm not exactly the most experienced person around.  The first run I leaned out quite a bit and was really flat all the time.  I upped my carb intake around my slin administration and that fixed that problem.  Thankfully I have a good friend who's been running slin for over 10 years and same thing happened to him and he advised the carb increase, so it was an easy fix.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2008, 12:07:03 PM »
at 50mcg t3 per day, once the slin clears your system, what was your diet like? i find that at that mcg t3 i need to eat alot of junk in order to keep growing and not slip into a fat burning mode.  on off days i lower it to 30mcg and still ill eat a lot of claories but i do need to eat the junk.

Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2008, 12:19:32 PM »
I always enjoy reading your posts Vet.  You've got a ton of knowledge but you present it in a way that is easily understood.  Always a dash of humor too.  I guess I had forgotten that you are a diabetic as well.
In any case, please keep posting here, you are one of about 4 or 5 people that I trust as far as info and actually learn from their posts.

Then follow my advice. Take everything Tbombs posts with a grain of salt.  He has no real clue or understanding of physiology. 

Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2008, 12:21:48 PM »
sure... ome basic stuff off the top of my head..

insulin halts the breakdown of nutrients. glycogen, fats, and proteins. there is a constant body process going on known as protein turnover or protein breakdown. during trainin this is elevated exponentially.


AAS mainly promote protein synthesis, and only weakly inhibit protein breakdown.

insulin mainly inhibits protein breakdown while only weakly promotes protein synthesis.

with elevated insulin throughout training, the natural process/reaction of elevated protein breakdown is halted, and thus you can actually be growing in the gym.


i can try to answer any more questions you have but i dont promise ill know the answers

 

Please don't.  You are completely missing the boat trying to show off. 


The primary function of insulin is glucose metabolism.   You didn't even mention that in your post.  If you understand that, then the other stuff makes sense.   What you are doing is taking snippets and presenting them while completely missing the big picture.   Please stop. 

Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2008, 12:32:44 PM »
I'm going to comment line by line for the discussion here.  Please tell me if doing it this way is too confusing

I agree with everything you wrote.  IMO part of the reason I don't get fat is simply carb timing and the use of short acting insulin. I only use Humalog, which is in and out in roughly 4 hours, whereas a diabetic uses insulin all day.
  The thing is the only source of insulin a diabetic has is what they are injecting (assuming Type I insulin dependant diabetic, type II's are a bit different).    What I think is happening is you are taking exogenous insulin, your body is not sensing hyperglycemia as a result of that insulin keeping blood sugar in check, so you aren't secreting insulin while its being metabolized.  It's out of your system relatively quickly, so then your "normal" production returns.


Quote
In my case I take Humalog first thing in the morning with a preworkout shake, train with another shake, drink my post workout shake and then wait 45 minutes before eating a solid carb/protein meal.  The rest of the day is simply protein, fibrous veggies and EFAs.

Like i said above, you are taking in substantial carbohydrates in a relatively short period of time. The exogenous insulin will be used first to metabolize these carbs---this is to fat and muscle cells, so dont forget that.  The thing is your deficit the rest of the day probably is a huge factor also.    I have to wonder if you arent going to reach a point with that approach where you are going to actually inhibit muscle growth over time.   Remember, most strenght and size gains occur hours after you are out of the gym.    I dont' know this, its just a thought.  

The other thing I'd like to see is what your blood glucose levels relative to your endogenous insulin levels are doing during this time--like an every 5 minute blood glucose curve.  Blood glucose is a dynamic entity, meaning it goes up and down all day long within that tightly controlled normal range.   Consuming 400 grams of relatively simple carbs over a 2-3 hour period will drive it up slightly even in a nondiabetic.  Not consuming enough carbs with the exogenous insulin may be resulting in subclinical hypoglycemia.  

I'm actually surprised you dont' have a 'rebound" collapse from this approach.  


Quote
IMO the fact that I'm training certain muscles and blood flows directly to those locations is another part of the reason the carbs go there over fat.  IDK, but it works.

I can eat 400g of carbs around my workout without a problem.  If I didn't use insulin and spread those carbs out over the day, I would get fat as hell.

I don't know.  

Quote
Adding in GH, T3 and Anabolics, even at relatively low doses has a huge synergistic effect.  I recently jumped about 15lbs in weight and got leaner at the same time.  It was the first time I had used all those compounds at the same time so that's probably part of the reason I had such a good reaction.
  GH and anabolics have an insulin desensitizing effect (GH more than anabolics, but anabolics at certian doses do), so this comes back what I've been saying with bodybuilders taking drugs that inhibit insulin function.  



To me this gets very, very complex with many small variables that need to be considered.  



abc123

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2008, 12:46:48 PM »
I'm sorry, there is one thing I forgot to mention that's important....

I only go zero carb the rest of the day when dieting (approximately 4,000 calories).  When trying to grow, I add in some carbs with each meal that was zero carb on the diet version, except for the last one or two meals.  Usually about a cup of barley, rice, lentils, etc.  My carbs go up in total to about 500-600g from the 400g I eat when dieting. The rest of my macros stay the same.

What do you mean by a 'rebound' effect?  Before I started using insulin preworkout, I used to have minor hypoglycemic episodes about an hour and a half after my PWO shake.  Once I started using the Humalog and added in the solid meal 45 minutes later it went away.  The rest of the day I feel great.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2008, 01:18:27 PM »
Please don't.  You are completely missing the boat trying to show off. 


The primary function of insulin is glucose metabolism.   You didn't even mention that in your post.  If you understand that, then the other stuff makes sense.   What you are doing is taking snippets and presenting them while completely missing the big picture.   Please stop. 

Come on now, he was talking from an athlete standpoint. What he said wasn't incorrect. I mean, do you disagree that it primarily blunts protein breakdown while it doesn't increase protein synthesis (until extreme concentrations are achieved*)? From an athlete standpoint.



Take a look at this. See the "is insulin a performance enhancing drug?" section. Do you disagree with what is written there?

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13

Quote
‘Street talk’ indicates that insulin is also being used in
a more haphazard way, particularly to increase muscle
bulk in body builders, weight lifters and power lifters.
This use is allegedly by regular injections of shortacting
insulin together with high carbohydrate diets.
Through this therapeutic regime it is almost certainly
possible to increase muscle bulk and performance not
only through increasing muscle glycogen stores on a
‘chronic’ basis but also by increasing muscle bulk
through inhibition of muscle protein breakdown. Just
as insulin has a chalonic action in inhibiting glucose
breakdown in muscle glycogen, it also has an equally
important chalonic action in inhibiting protein breakdown.
Indeed, the evidence now indicates that insulin
does NOT stimulate protein synthesis directly (this
process is under the control of GH and insulin-like
growth factor-I (IGF-I)).
It has long been known that
insulin-treated patients with diabetes have an increase
in lean body mass when compared with matched
controls (Sinha et al. 1996).

Taken together, all these points support the concern
shown by the Russian medical officer in Nagano and the
immediate response of the IOC to ban the use of insulin in
those without diabetes.

You haven't really answered the question whether you think exogenous insulin can be anabolic (directly or indirectly) beyond what you can achieve through dietary manipulation. What do you say? Although I haven't been impressed with it myself I'm sure it does help an athlete in certain situations, to a certain degree. All the mechanisms may not have been clearly elucidated but it's been in use long enough to not be totally a placebo drug (has been used for decades by athletes, for example Russian Olympic athletes**).

*
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067

**
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/drafts/Pharmacology.doc


Vet

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2008, 01:24:38 PM »
Ask Tbombs.  He knows all and he'll google you an explaination. 

Look, I'm tired of the trolls on this board.  You can't discuss something without some little know it all jumping in and being an asshole.  Tbombz, candiizzle, whatever the fuck his name is just another in a long line of them.    It doesn't matter what I post, those assholes will say I don't know what i'm talking about.   I'm tired of preaching into the wind.  Fuck it.   

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2008, 01:45:19 PM »
you aint preaching to the wind...there are a lot of ppl on this board that respect your knowledge...insulin is something not to  be fucked around with

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2008, 01:50:12 PM »
Ask Tbombs.  He knows all and he'll google you an explaination. 

Look, I'm tired of the trolls on this board.  You can't discuss something without some little know it all jumping in and being an asshole.  Tbombz, candiizzle, whatever the fuck his name is just another in a long line of them.    It doesn't matter what I post, those assholes will say I don't know what i'm talking about.   I'm tired of preaching into the wind.  Fuck it.  

Don't tell me you expect this to be a doctor roundtable. This is getbig after all!  :D

There isn't a bb forum on the net where you wouldn't find resistance. A doc would object to everything in this or any other bodybuilding forum.  :D

you aint preaching to the wind...there are a lot of ppl on this board that respect your knowledge...insulin is something not to  be fucked around with

Maybe, maybe not. But it is used and will continue to be used by athletes.

abc123

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2008, 02:18:35 PM »
Vet, please don't go.  We value your opinion.  Just don't respond to the trolls.  :)

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »
at 50mcg t3 per day, once the slin clears your system, what was your diet like? i find that at that mcg t3 i need to eat alot of junk in order to keep growing and not slip into a fat burning mode.  on off days i lower it to 30mcg and still ill eat a lot of claories but i do need to eat the junk.

Well you have to remember I'm on GH as well which inhibits thyroid function so 25mcgs of that T3 is just a maintanence dose, and the other 25mcgs is close to what you're running.  I don't eat a lot of junk food on that dose.  Anything above that and it's ice cream city for me.

I didn't really find that this thread was getting ridiculous at all.  There's some good discussion going on, albeit some people seem like they don't like to be questioned.  This is a bodybuilding board after all, not mens health digest so we're not going to be using certain compounds for their normal prescribed function.  There's a reason BB'rs use insulin and have been using it, and I'm definitely all for learning the more clinical uses of it and how it effects other functions in the body, so I say let the discussion continue on as long as things stay civil, I don't see the harm.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2008, 03:24:34 PM »
I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2008, 03:27:48 PM »
I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.

I took this pic this morning:


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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2008, 03:27:59 PM »
Don't tell me you expect this to be a doctor roundtable. This is getbig after all!  :D

There isn't a bb forum on the net where you wouldn't find resistance. A doc would object to everything in this or any other bodybuilding forum.  :D

Maybe, maybe not. But it is used and will continue to be used by athletes.

Im not knocking anyone that uses it...but some of these horror stories sway me from ever using it..besides my goal in life is not to be a professional bodybuilder...its not worth the risk for me...rather take some abombs and test...how has it effected you health wise from using insulin?

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Re: Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2008, 03:41:22 PM »
I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.
Not exactly a productive post now is it  ::)