Author Topic: Question for God believers  (Read 33201 times)

no one

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #250 on: December 04, 2013, 12:58:04 PM »

as I had anticipated.

I'll leave you to your nothingness.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #251 on: December 04, 2013, 01:14:17 PM »
yes our reality is kinda overrated, our sense for reality, we dont hear many soundwaves,but theyre there, we dont see x rays with our eyes but theyre there.
hell we dont even see the air, but its there.

however im all for honest scienc if everyone can learn something from it, keyword learn, not benefit.

and the religious ppl could be bit more tolerant in thinkng and acceptance of others, and believers of other religions.
it mustnt mean that god looks as described in the bible, sure it says he made us in his mirrror or whatever the saying is(im the case in point btw ;D ) but theres no accurate descrition,it could all be interpreted metaphoricaly.

god could be that force that made the bigang happen, thatd be my conclusion, and id rather call it creating force.the ten commandments are just minor ammendments(and the laws in nations are indirectly originated from them in a way often),bc the humans would smash eachothers skulls in to no end if it wasnt for certain rules.

some romantic anarchists will disagree,but for every peaceful anarchist,i know 2 absolute psychopaths who would murder them just for fun if there was no rules.

 
overrated compared to what baseline?

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #252 on: December 04, 2013, 01:19:57 PM »
I kind of think this is a question better left unanswered. If the answer was truly known, mankind would find a way to fuck it all up.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #253 on: December 04, 2013, 09:43:20 PM »
Time and temporal relations as we understand them are properties of this universe. It's possible that something similar existed "before" the Big Bang, and it is possible that our definitions could be extended to cover that concept too.

But time as we currently understand it started with the Big Bang according to the best theories we have available. You are welcome to produce specific quotes from the people whose names you mention suggesting otherwise.

I don't know why this seems so difficult and challenging to you.

I do find understanding what time is quite difficult and challenging, and I think I am far from alone in that.

Until about ten or fifteen years ago, the conventional wisdom among all physicists was that time "started" with the Big Bang.  Time, it was held, was only definable in terms of the relationships of events in the universe to each other, and so before the universe existed, there could be no time.  This was also Hawking's position.

As a result of ongoing efforts going back to Einstein to create a unified field theory, string theory (along with supergravity) came to be a leading candidate to resolve the incompatibilities between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.  A successor to string theory, originally proposed by Edward Witten, is M-theory.  And a cosmological model of the origin of the universe within M-theory conceives of the following:  There is a "bulk universe" in which perhaps an infinite number of n-dimensional "branes" exist (the bulk universe itself being of n+1 dimensions). Each of these branes can be thought of as "floating" in the bulk universe.  Occasionally, two branes will collide, causing a Big Bang type event. The Big Bang that created our universe is one such event.

Now, if you want to argue that "bulk universe time" is different from time in our universe, be my guest.  But, either way, there is a sense in which time extended before the Big Bang.  Call it something else if you want, but that would be arbitrary, it seems to me.

Alan Guth, the originator of the theory of cosmological inflation, is currently working on inflationary models within the bulk universe construct (see Wikipedia article on Guth).

A variant of the bulk universe construct is the "multiverse", in which big bangs are also creating universes all the time.  Lee Smolin has developed a kind of Darwinian theory of "survival" of the many universes created by big bangs in the multiverse. See his "Life of the Cosmos".

Leonard Susskind discusses the same ideas in "The Black Hole War".  

I don't have a reference for Glashow, since my information on him is based on a conversation he and I had after I attended a panel discussion in which he participated, but perhaps my mention of Edward Witten will make up for that.

All of the above physicists are now or have been working on the above concepts, which involve events postulated to happen before the Big Bang.


no one

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #254 on: December 05, 2013, 09:39:08 PM »
what happened to your thread guys?

surely to fuck a discussion of this magnitude could go on for a lifetime.

but not amongst you. why is that?

it ground to a halt cause you don't have any more ideas that you can pirate and regurutate to makes yourselves feel intelligent.  

bAhaha 11 pages by GB's elite in an attempt to unlock the universe. it's like watching monkeys trying to use chopsticks.

carry on, geniuses.
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Radical Plato

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #255 on: December 05, 2013, 09:57:55 PM »
what happened to your thread guys?

surely to fuck a discussion of this magnitude could go on for a lifetime.

but not amongst you. why is that?

it ground to a halt cause you don't have any more ideas that you can pirate and regurutate to makes yourselves feel intelligent. 

bAhaha 11 pages by GB's elite in an attempt to unlock the universe. it's like watching monkeys try to use chopsticks.

carry on, geniuses.
lol, a discussion about where did GOD come from shouldn't last a page.  There is zero evidence for GOD, any assertion otherwise is simply the wishful thinking of frightened human beings.  The fact the thread has had this much legs is testament to the desperation of god botherers and their utter inability to utilize critical thinking.   It comes as no surprise that those who have chosen to suspend critical thinking for blind faith that they lack the needed skillset to think critically.  This is just yet another abuse of religion, it has given God Botherers an excuse to stop thinking.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #256 on: December 05, 2013, 10:08:45 PM »
It comes as no surprise that those who have chosen to suspend critical thinking for blind faith that they lack the needed skillset to think critically.

lol what 'thinking' have you done in your life A-Fool?

newton was a great thinker. enstein. any of the Greek philosophers. anyone who postulises a theory not based on what they may have been exposed to in the past. the list of truely great thinkers is probably unfathomable in it's number. you? not so much. you're an ape. an ignorant just using the tools others have made.

lol @ you being a critical thinker. your no more a critical thinker than a student in grade 5 reciting his times tables.

if anything your a critical regurgitor, a parasitic flea on the balls of the intellect who have formed every idea in that vast cavernous void you call a consciousness.

don't flatter yourself by 'thinking' your anything more.

edit: fuck just trying to make sense of that disaterous butchery of the english language I quoted should be proof enough that your not quite the intellect you so badly desire to be.

carry on, ape.
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Gonuclear

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #257 on: December 05, 2013, 10:14:49 PM »
lol, a discussion about where did GOD come from shouldn't last a page.  There is zero evidence for GOD, any assertion otherwise is simply the wishful thinking of frightened human beings.  The fact the thread has had this much legs is testament to the desperation of god botherers and their utter inability to utilize critical thinking.   It comes as no surprise that those who have chosen to suspend critical thinking for blind faith that they lack the needed skillset to think critically.  This is just yet another abuse of religion, it has given God Botherers an excuse to stop thinking.

I think the discussion ended because the OP demanded that those who believe in G-d provide proof for His existence according to the scientific method.  That is not possible.  

Seeing the universe as the creation of a transcendent intelligence gives purpose and meaning to life for many people.  For them, the existence of the universe is sufficient proof that G-d exists.  When these people have their doubts about their faith (as anyone does), they feel the doubt emotionally - as a deep void broadening.  They don't experience it as an insight that some argument for the existence of G-d is wrong.

Atheists view the world entirely differently, and tend to think that nothing that cannot be established by science has meaning or reality.  (They could of course be right.)

It is hard to see how any argument could possibly bridge that kind of gap.

Given that, all you had in this thread were the two opposing camps either shouting past each other, or preaching to the choir.  And that gets old real quick.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #258 on: December 05, 2013, 10:16:20 PM »
lol what 'thinking' have you done in your life A-Fool?

newton was a great thinker. enstein. any of the Greek philosophers. anyone who postulises a theory not based on what they may have been exposed to in the past. the list of truely great thinkers is probably unfathomable in it's number. you? not so much. you're an ape. an ignorant just using the tools others have made.

lol @ you being a critical thinker. your no more a critical thinker than a student in grade 5 reciting his times tables.

if anything your a critical regurgitor, a parasitic flea on the balls of the intellect who have formed every idea in that vast cavernous void you call a consciousness.

don't flatter yourself by 'thinking' your anything more.


Once again, the same accusation repeated again and again, perhaps if you had of read my initial response to your unoriginal assertions, you might have stopped repeating yourself looking like a complete tool.  I will re-post again, I doubt you will read it though, as it is quite long and requires the attention span of a functioning adult.  But here goes anyway.

The irony is I am being asked to demonstrate original thinking by someone who is yet to demonstrate their ability to do so. I would be interested to learn whose opinions you think I am repeating.  Rather than pointing out others perceived deficiencies, why don't you try explaining what you mean.  Offer a convincing argument as to why I lack original thought.  Hell, even a simple demonstration of original thinking would be a good start.  Original thinking only has value if it is superior to current thinking. I could create an original sentence like the following "are giants gathering nodules for supercilious modifications".  Sure it's original alright, but it's just word salad, it doesn't mean anything. I think your desire for wanting to be an original thinker has clouded your assessment of what that actually means, and the path to achieving such a goal.  Original thinking does not equal intelligent or meaningful thinking.

And if we look at thoughts in terms of their link to the uniqueness of each moment, then all thoughts are original, as they will never occur again, the context they occurred in is unique and by definition unrepeatable.  If we look at original thought in more practical terms, there is no such thing as original thought independant of other thoughts.

Also, we were discussing your false assertion that facts don't exist, nothing to do with repeating the opinion of others.   2+2=4 isn't the opinion of someone else.  It is mathematical fact. .  In theory, there is no such thing as an original thought, as it is dependant on a chain of thinking and ideas.  It may be considered an extension or adaptation of a train of thought, but it is not original as it is dependant on prior information.  It is like saying the word 'getbigger' is original because prior to getbig it has never been uttered before, but it is simply a modification of the word 'getbig' using a grammatical principle to change the word 'getbig' from a noun to a verb.  It's so called originality was dependant on other previously discovered principles.

All your propositions are absurd, the suggestion that gravity didn't exist until Newton assigned a value to it is the most imbecilic thing I have ever heard.  Gravities existence is independant of anybody knowing about it.  Even if gravity was never discovered it would continue to exist.  I think part of your problem is you incorrectly assess reality.  When you say 'think of what else is out there that doesn't exist, that is waiting for an original thought to give it life.'.  If something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, no amount of thoughts can make it exist.  

The discoveries of say something like gravity isn't due to original thinking. Human beings would have always understood that it exists, as the consistency of which it could be observed would have been undeniable. All that Newton did, using the collective knowledge that had been accumulated until that point in time, was find a way to articulate what it was and how it worked.  This wasn't because he was an original thinker, most of the knowledge needed to explain the law was thanks to other great thinkers before him.  He simply collaborated that knowledge, used his intellect to expand upon it and utilised scientific principles to explain his discovery.

You are deluded if you believe your thinking is independant of everyone elses.  You are a product of the same environment every human being is.  
Your acquired body of knowledge and opinions is a due to a web of interdependence. From the time you were born you have been taught ideas that you have modified to make your own. Just as the top floor of a skyscraper couldn't exist without the foundations below it, your thinking, your ideas couldn't exist without the historical foundations of collective knowledge and wisdom that came before it.

I think you misunderstand how great minds from the past developed their original ideas, they first learned the way everyone else does and then they added to that.  Their genius didn't come from making a decision to think original thoughts.  Their knowledge and wisdom was the accumulation of learning from countless great thinkers before them.  Just as Hawkings Discoveries couldn't have happened without Einsteins discoveries that couldn't have happened without Galileo's discoveries and so forth.

I actually think you are seriously deluded, like seriously psychiatrically ill.  This absurd notion that others haven't shaped your worldview is the height of arrogance and indication of an inability to assess reality. It is obvious at the very least you are deeply narcisstic, having a deep need to believe you are some type of original thinker and your learning is from some magical source and not from where everyone else gets it, the world around them.  Marilyn Manson is original, it doesn't stop him from being a fucking douchebag. Marilyn had the original thought to be the first man to get breast implants (so much for originality). Originality certainly does not equal intelligence.   And your posts have descended into common insults, probably the lowest and most unoriginal form of wit known to man.  You don't even attempt to explain your strange ideas, you just simply ridicule anyone who disagrees with them. HOW ORIGINAL.  

This is why I compared you to Falcon when I read your original word salad post.    Don't just take my opinion for it then, go run some of your ideas by the local psychiatrists, and see what they say.  Tell the psychiatrist what you have said here, tell them that their life is a movie, that each planet or star in their universe represents an event they either have or have not visited yet. Tell them you believe you don't think anyone can say anything is 'fact'.  That there is no 'time'. That the past the present and the future have already happened and are happening now.  Get back to me and let me know how that goes for you.

Just because you claim to derive your knowledge from a journey of self discovery, doesn't mean you will come to any correct conclusions.  A journey of self discovery is only necessary when you have exhausted the wisdom of others, to take such a journey without the appropriate foundation is like trying to teach yourself algebra without first being taught Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication & Division.  For the uninitiated, a journey of self discovery could be the long way around to discovering oneself, it may even prevent you from doing so.

“The kernel, the soul — let us go further and say the substance, the bulk, the actual and valuable material of all human utterances — is plagiarism.  For substantially all ideas are second-hand, consciously and unconsciously drawn from a million outside sources, and daily use by the garnerer with a pride and satisfaction born of the superstition that he originated them; whereas there is not a rag of originality about them anywhere except the little discoloration they get from his mental and moral calibre and his temperament, and which is revealed in characteristics of phrasing. When a great orator makes a great speech you are listening to ten centuries and ten thousand men—but we call it his speech, and really some exceedingly small portion of it is his. But not enough to signify. It is merely a Waterloo. It is Wellington's battle, in some degree, and we call it his; but there are others that contributed. It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a phonograph, or a telephone or any other important thing—and the last man gets the credit and we forget the others. He added his little mite—that is all he did. These object lessons should teach us that ninety-nine parts of all things that proceed from the intellect are plagiarisms, pure and simple; and the lesson ought to make us modest. But nothing can do that.” - Mark Twain
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #259 on: December 05, 2013, 10:22:57 PM »
Nice rejoinder, and this sledgehammer does obliterate the flea, but a swat of the palm would have done as well.


Once again, the same accusation repeated again and again, perhaps if you had of read my initial response to your unoriginal assertions, you might have stopped repeating yourself looking like a complete tool.  I will re-post again, I doubt you will read it though, as it is quite long and requires the attention span of a functioning adult.  But here goes anyway.

The irony is I am being asked to demonstrate original thinking by someone who is yet to demonstrate their ability to do so. I would be interested to learn whose opinions you think I am repeating.  Rather than pointing out others perceived deficiencies, why don't you try explaining what you mean.  Offer a convincing argument as to why I lack original thought.  Hell, even a simple demonstration of original thinking would be a good start.  Original thinking only has value if it is superior to current thinking. I could create an original sentence like the following "are giants gathering nodules for supercilious modifications".  Sure it's original alright, but it's just word salad, it doesn't mean anything. I think your desire for wanting to be an original thinker has clouded your assessment of what that actually means, and the path to achieving such a goal.  Original thinking does not equal intelligent or meaningful thinking.

And if we look at thoughts in terms of their link to the uniqueness of each moment, then all thoughts are original, as they will never occur again, the context they occurred in is unique and by definition unrepeatable.  If we look at original thought in more practical terms, there is no such thing as original thought independant of other thoughts.

Also, we were discussing your false assertion that facts don't exist, nothing to do with repeating the opinion of others.   2+2=4 isn't the opinion of someone else.  It is mathematical fact. .  In theory, there is no such thing as an original thought, as it is dependant on a chain of thinking and ideas.  It may be considered an extension or adaptation of a train of thought, but it is not original as it is dependant on prior information.  It is like saying the word 'getbigger' is original because prior to getbig it has never been uttered before, but it is simply a modification of the word 'getbig' using a grammatical principle to change the word 'getbig' from a noun to a verb.  It's so called originality was dependant on other previously discovered principles.

All your propositions are absurd, the suggestion that gravity didn't exist until Newton assigned a value to it is the most imbecilic thing I have ever heard.  Gravities existence is independant of anybody knowing about it.  Even if gravity was never discovered it would continue to exist.  I think part of your problem is you incorrectly assess reality.  When you say 'think of what else is out there that doesn't exist, that is waiting for an original thought to give it life.'.  If something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, no amount of thoughts can make it exist.  

The discoveries of say something like gravity isn't due to original thinking. Human beings would have always understood that it exists, as the consistency of which it could be observed would have been undeniable. All that Newton did, using the collective knowledge that had been accumulated until that point in time, was find a way to articulate what it was and how it worked.  This wasn't because he was an original thinker, most of the knowledge needed to explain the law was thanks to other great thinkers before him.  He simply collaborated that knowledge, used his intellect to expand upon it and utilised scientific principles to explain his discovery.

You are deluded if you believe your thinking is independant of everyone elses.  You are a product of the same environment every human being is.  
Your acquired body of knowledge and opinions is a due to a web of interdependence. From the time you were born you have been taught ideas that you have modified to make your own. Just as the top floor of a skyscraper couldn't exist without the foundations below it, your thinking, your ideas couldn't exist without the historical foundations of collective knowledge and wisdom that came before it.

I think you misunderstand how great minds from the past developed their original ideas, they first learned the way everyone else does and then they added to that.  Their genius didn't come from making a decision to think original thoughts.  Their knowledge and wisdom was the accumulation of learning from countless great thinkers before them.  Just as Hawkings Discoveries couldn't have happened without Einsteins discoveries that couldn't have happened without Galileo's discoveries and so forth.

I actually think you are seriously deluded, like seriously psychiatrically ill.  This absurd notion that others haven't shaped your worldview is the height of arrogance and indication of an inability to assess reality. It is obvious at the very least you are deeply narcisstic, having a deep need to believe you are some type of original thinker and your learning is from some magical source and not from where everyone else gets it, the world around them.  Marilyn Manson is original, it doesn't stop him from being a fucking douchebag. Marilyn had the original thought to be the first man to get breast implants (so much for originality). Originality certainly does not equal intelligence.   And your posts have descended into common insults, probably the lowest and most unoriginal form of wit known to man.  You don't even attempt to explain your strange ideas, you just simply ridicule anyone who disagrees with them. HOW ORIGINAL.  

This is why I compared you to Falcon when I read your original word salad post.    Don't just take my opinion for it then, go run some of your ideas by the local psychiatrists, and see what they say.  Tell the psychiatrist what you have said here, tell them that their life is a movie, that each planet or star in their universe represents an event they either have or have not visited yet. Tell them you believe you don't think anyone can say anything is 'fact'.  That there is no 'time'. That the past the present and the future have already happened and are happening now.  Get back to me and let me know how that goes for you.

Just because you claim to derive your knowledge from a journey of self discovery, doesn't mean you will come to any correct conclusions.  A journey of self discovery is only necessary when you have exhausted the wisdom of others, to take such a journey without the appropriate foundation is like trying to teach yourself algebra without first being taught Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication & Division.  For the uninitiated, a journey of self discovery could be the long way around to discovering oneself, it may even prevent you from doing so.

“The kernel, the soul — let us go further and say the substance, the bulk, the actual and valuable material of all human utterances — is plagiarism.  For substantially all ideas are second-hand, consciously and unconsciously drawn from a million outside sources, and daily use by the garnerer with a pride and satisfaction born of the superstition that he originated them; whereas there is not a rag of originality about them anywhere except the little discoloration they get from his mental and moral calibre and his temperament, and which is revealed in characteristics of phrasing. When a great orator makes a great speech you are listening to ten centuries and ten thousand men—but we call it his speech, and really some exceedingly small portion of it is his. But not enough to signify. It is merely a Waterloo. It is Wellington's battle, in some degree, and we call it his; but there are others that contributed. It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a phonograph, or a telephone or any other important thing—and the last man gets the credit and we forget the others. He added his little mite—that is all he did. These object lessons should teach us that ninety-nine parts of all things that proceed from the intellect are plagiarisms, pure and simple; and the lesson ought to make us modest. But nothing can do that.” - Mark Twain

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2013, 10:23:45 PM »
I do find understanding what time is quite difficult and challenging, and I think I am far from alone in that.

You are not. It's the same thing as explaining a fourth dimension. I can talk to you about it theoretically; I can even show you the three-dimensional shadows a four-dimensional object would cast, but you still cannot visualize an object in four dimensions. Time is even more difficult because it is (at least, to us) unidirectional, unlike the regular dimensions we're used to.


Until about ten or fifteen years ago, the conventional wisdom among all physicists was that time "started" with the Big Bang.  Time, it was held, was only definable in terms of the relationships of events in the universe to each other, and so before the universe existed, there could be no time.  This was also Hawking's position.

Again, I will repeat: time is a fundamental property of the Universe and temporal causality is meaningless when no partial ordering for a set of events can be defined; this is not in dispute and no physicist debates that fact. If you can find a physicist who explicitly disagrees with these statements then I'll be more than happy to eat the crow I'll have coming to me.


As a result of ongoing efforts going back to Einstein to create a unified field theory, string theory (along with supergravity) came to be a leading candidate to resolve the incompatibilities between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.  A successor to string theory, originally proposed by Edward Witten, is M-theory.  And a cosmological model of the origin of the universe within M-theory conceives of the following:  There is a "bulk universe" in which perhaps an infinite number of n-dimensional "branes" exist (the bulk universe itself being of n+1 dimensions). Each of these branes can be thought of as "floating" in the bulk universe.  Occasionally, two branes will collide, causing a Big Bang type event. The Big Bang that created our universe is one such event.

Right, but it's unclear what "time" means in that bulk universe.


Now, if you want to argue that "bulk universe time" is different from time in our universe, be my guest.  But, either way, there is a sense in which time extended before the Big Bang.  Call it something else if you want, but that would be arbitrary, it seems to me.

No. There's no sense in which time as we understand the concept extended before the Big Bang. What evidence do you have that this bulk universe has any concept of time? I submit that you have none. What evidence do you have that this bulk universe even needs a concept like time? Again, I submit that you have none.


Alan Guth, the originator of the theory of cosmological inflation, is currently working on inflationary models within the bulk universe construct (see Wikipedia article on Guth).

I think you are slightly confused about inflationary theory, and what Guth agrues. The simple fact is that our current understanding suggests that finitely long ago, there was a complete breakdown of general relativity. Nothing that Guth (or Witten, for that matter) say changes that. Guth's inflationary theory addresses the locally-Euclidean nature of the Universe and explains some observations (including the uniform cosmic background radiation) that were viewed as (at best) unexplained anomalies.

Let's assume, for a second, that m-theory is correct and that the Big Bang was the result of two branes colliding. You assert that this collision happened "before" the Big Bang - you extrapolate temporal relations based on the current Universe and extend them to have meaning beyond the Universe in which those relations have meaning.


A variant of the bulk universe construct is the "multiverse", in which big bangs are also creating universes all the time.  Lee Smolin has developed a kind of Darwinian theory of "survival" of the many universes created by big bangs in the multiverse. See his "Life of the Cosmos".

None of which addresses the concept of time outside of the context of the Universe. That would be like discussing the life and times of Michael Corleone if "The Godfather" had never been made.


Leonard Susskind discusses the same ideas in "The Black Hole War".

I haven't read the book, but I added it on my Amazon list.


I don't have a reference for Glashow, since my information on him is based on a conversation he and I had after I attended a panel discussion in which he participated, but perhaps my mention of Edward Witten will make up for that.

I'm actually quite impressed that you've met Sheldon Glashow, especially in the context of a panel discussion. Can I ask if you have any training in theoretical physics, or if it's just a subject you enjoy?


All of the above physicists are now or have been working on the above concepts, which involve events postulated to happen before the Big Bang.

No. No. Please stop. Just listen: NO THEORETICAL PHYSICIST WILL EVER USE THE TERM BEFORE IN THE WAY YOU ARE USING IT HERE. THE TERM IS MEANINGLESS.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2013, 10:30:16 PM »
overrated compared to what baseline?
compared to the size and age of a simple supernova.

for example.or a galaxy.

we live for 80years(bbuilders do it in 40)and then that its,we become dirt under the ground.

meanwhile things like supernovas are responsible that there even is an earth.

if theres a god hes not ust hthe pepeteer of eartly strings,the guy is more skilled,he runs the whole universe,maybe that how church pedofilia goes under his radar.who knows what else race he haas created somewhere else.

or maybe we are ust ta trial species from some aliens,they making a truman show with us.

pointing fingers at us"lol,bigbang,when theyre just a computer programme" "lol,religion,we we programmed them to be recepive to that"
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no one

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #262 on: December 05, 2013, 10:32:26 PM »
Nice rejoinder, and this sledgehammer does obliterate the flea, but a swat of the palm would have done as well.



odd. with this post you manifested your own destiny.

see avxo's 'rejoinder' to your post above.

fuck what a clown you are. do you and A-Fool share the same clown costume?
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #263 on: December 05, 2013, 10:34:44 PM »
I think the discussion ended because the OP demanded that those who believe in G-d provide proof for His existence according to the scientific method.  That is not possible.  Seeing the universe as the creation of a transcendent intelligence gives purpose and meaning to life for many people.  For them, the existence of the universe is sufficient proof that G-d exists.  When these people have their doubts about their faith (as anyone does), they feel the doubt emotionally - as a deep void broadening.  They don't experience it as an insight that some argument for the existence of G-d is wrong.

Atheists view the world entirely differently, and tend to think that nothing that cannot be established by science has meaning or reality.  (They could of course be right.)

It is hard to see how any argument could possibly bridge that kind of gap.

Given that, all you had in this thread were the two opposing camps either shouting past each other, or preaching to the choir.  And that gets old real quick.
I think a part of the issue is, atheists see God believers as naive or gullible.  If they are willing to suspend critical thought for a comforting illusion, then it is hard to take such people seriously.  The God so many choose to believe in and also loves them unconditionally, promises eternal life and a future utopia and that seems a remarkable coincidence.  What if the force that created the universe was indifferent to human beings and built in evil as part of his creation.  Why is it beliefs around GOD always coincides with what a human being would want? (sins removed, to be forgiven, heaven, to be loved, personal requests granted via prayer etc)  It seems GOD is more a function of an individuals EGO, as GOD just so happens to be whatever he wants them to be. A striking coincidence indeed.  Atheists see people who believe on GOD the same way a parent sees a child with an imaginary friend.  Fortunately the parent knows the child will grow out of such behavior, a luxury not afforded to atheists.

What is wrong with accepting the cold hard realities of life, and through the deepening of this realization developing compassion for others.  What if belief in God was just another psychological defense mechanism that prevented you from growing full as a human being.  Isn't it just another form of escapism, another way to delay the inevitable.  This is why I can't relate to God believers, it's as if they have found a way to deliberately avoid or delay the suffering that life entails, so rather than being able to comfort others who suffer, they lack the relevant frame of reference to do so.  By using GOD as a defense mechanism they deprive themselves of the full experience life entails and leaves them unable to help others when they suffer similar fates (other than to teach them the same defensive mechanisms they have learned)
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #264 on: December 05, 2013, 10:35:44 PM »

no one

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #265 on: December 05, 2013, 10:58:30 PM »

this aptly captures the intelligence displayed by gonuclear and A-Fool in this thread

well done gentlemen. please keep enlightening us all with your knowledge. lol

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #266 on: December 05, 2013, 11:16:52 PM »
Science > than the collected stories of the Ancient Goat Herders

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #267 on: December 07, 2013, 08:16:10 AM »
I do find understanding what time is quite difficult and challenging, and I think I am far from alone in that.

Until about ten or fifteen years ago, the conventional wisdom among all physicists was that time "started" with the Big Bang.  Time, it was held, was only definable in terms of the relationships of events in the universe to each other, and so before the universe existed, there could be no time.  This was also Hawking's position.

As a result of ongoing efforts going back to Einstein to create a unified field theory, string theory (along with supergravity) came to be a leading candidate to resolve the incompatibilities between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.  A successor to string theory, originally proposed by Edward Witten, is M-theory.  And a cosmological model of the origin of the universe within M-theory conceives of the following:  There is a "bulk universe" in which perhaps an infinite number of n-dimensional "branes" exist (the bulk universe itself being of n+1 dimensions). Each of these branes can be thought of as "floating" in the bulk universe.  Occasionally, two branes will collide, causing a Big Bang type event. The Big Bang that created our universe is one such event.

Now, if you want to argue that "bulk universe time" is different from time in our universe, be my guest.  But, either way, there is a sense in which time extended before the Big Bang.  Call it something else if you want, but that would be arbitrary, it seems to me.

Alan Guth, the originator of the theory of cosmological inflation, is currently working on inflationary models within the bulk universe construct (see Wikipedia article on Guth).

A variant of the bulk universe construct is the "multiverse", in which big bangs are also creating universes all the time.  Lee Smolin has developed a kind of Darwinian theory of "survival" of the many universes created by big bangs in the multiverse. See his "Life of the Cosmos".

Leonard Susskind discusses the same ideas in "The Black Hole War".  

I don't have a reference for Glashow, since my information on him is based on a conversation he and I had after I attended a panel discussion in which he participated, but perhaps my mention of Edward Witten will make up for that.

All of the above physicists are now or have been working on the above concepts, which involve events postulated to happen before the Big Bang.



Ok so theoretical physics, string theory is meh and has been, loop quantum gravity was suskinds idea and much more palatable. Actually infinites cannot exist either as they require a point with which to measure, making it impossible.

Theoretical physics have all kinds of shit going on, none of it proven beyond some fancy math that may be us rubbing our own dickheads.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #268 on: December 07, 2013, 08:20:58 AM »
Ok so theoretical physics, string theory is meh and has been, loop quantum gravity was suskinds idea and much more palatable. Actually infinites cannot exist either as they require a point with which to measure, making it impossible.

Theoretical physics have all kinds of shit going on, none of it proven beyond some fancy math that may be us rubbing our own dickheads.

Just remember the physics that drives your car and flys you across the world was all theory at one time.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #269 on: December 07, 2013, 08:27:20 AM »
I believe more in the ancient aliens theory then I do about the classical bible.

If there is a higher power, they are aliens, and they are laughing at they're little ant farm called earth.

It is impossible that we are the only life in the universe. Odds are that there are various cycles going on all around space. Some planets could still be in the dinasour age, while others are way more advanced then we can fathom.

Life is constant. Everything happens in cycles.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #270 on: December 07, 2013, 08:36:12 AM »
why let so many children get raped, murdered, killed, etc? what god allows that?

"God" does not care, like any other human filthy being... ::)

If he created us in HIS image, then thats just what it is.......

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #271 on: December 07, 2013, 10:03:43 AM »
avxo

As usual, I am impressed by your thoughtful and knowledgable reply.  Let me start with your last comment/question first:  I happen to have met Glashow at an MIT forum.  I was just an attendee (being an MIT student at the time), and I have no training in physics at all, just very interested in it, especially cosmology. The panel discussion part of the conference was lightly attended, which helped me get the opportunity to talk with him briefly afterward.

Where we seem to differ is in a notion of time that includes the Big Bang as an event in a larger stream of events.  I know it is hypothetical (to what degree is a matter of opinion) to talk about time this way, but, as I said, over the last ten years, physicists have been doing it a lot.  Guth actually believes that such discussions are absolutely consistent with known physics, although he does qualify this slightly.

See his paper on Eternal Inflation (http://cds.cern.ch/record/485381/files/0101507.pdf), and specifically in discussing the beginning of the universe, see pages 11-14, where he refers to our universe as a "pocket universe" that came into being "far" from the beginning, and just naturally talks about events before and after the Big Bang. He even has a diagram with an explicitly labeled time axis that spans the beginnings of multiple pocket universes.  

Please let me know how you think I am misunderstanding him.

And the sense in which he is talking about time of course satisfies a partial order.  That is the weakest requirement for any theory of time, at least according to McTaggart.

You are not. It's the same thing as explaining a fourth dimension. I can talk to you about it theoretically; I can even show you the three-dimensional shadows a four-dimensional object would cast, but you still cannot visualize an object in four dimensions. Time is even more difficult because it is (at least, to us) unidirectional, unlike the regular dimensions we're used to.


Again, I will repeat: time is a fundamental property of the Universe and temporal causality is meaningless when no partial ordering for a set of events can be defined; this is not in dispute and no physicist debates that fact. If you can find a physicist who explicitly disagrees with these statements then I'll be more than happy to eat the crow I'll have coming to me.


Right, but it's unclear what "time" means in that bulk universe.


No. There's no sense in which time as we understand the concept extended before the Big Bang. What evidence do you have that this bulk universe has any concept of time? I submit that you have none. What evidence do you have that this bulk universe even needs a concept like time? Again, I submit that you have none.


I think you are slightly confused about inflationary theory, and what Guth agrues. The simple fact is that our current understanding suggests that finitely long ago, there was a complete breakdown of general relativity. Nothing that Guth (or Witten, for that matter) say changes that. Guth's inflationary theory addresses the locally-Euclidean nature of the Universe and explains some observations (including the uniform cosmic background radiation) that were viewed as (at best) unexplained anomalies.

Let's assume, for a second, that m-theory is correct and that the Big Bang was the result of two branes colliding. You assert that this collision happened "before" the Big Bang - you extrapolate temporal relations based on the current Universe and extend them to have meaning beyond the Universe in which those relations have meaning.


None of which addresses the concept of time outside of the context of the Universe. That would be like discussing the life and times of Michael Corleone if "The Godfather" had never been made.


I haven't read the book, but I added it on my Amazon list.


I'm actually quite impressed that you've met Sheldon Glashow, especially in the context of a panel discussion. Can I ask if you have any training in theoretical physics, or if it's just a subject you enjoy?


No. No. Please stop. Just listen: NO THEORETICAL PHYSICIST WILL EVER USE THE TERM BEFORE IN THE WAY YOU ARE USING IT HERE. THE TERM IS MEANINGLESS.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #272 on: December 07, 2013, 10:17:31 AM »
Just remember the physics that drives your car and flys you across the world was all theory at one time.

Sure, but remember that string theory has nothing to do with it.

It has no real world experimental success and before ed whitten was a clusterfuck or useless math.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #273 on: December 07, 2013, 10:19:39 AM »
Who the hell is God?

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #274 on: December 07, 2013, 10:26:36 AM »
Who the hell is God?

This from a guy named "Nobody"?  ;D You don't believe, don't worry about it.  I don't.

Thanks.