Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: New Hank Wood on March 28, 2008, 04:58:50 AM
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Arnold seemed such a fun lovin guy back in the day. Surely all the reports that Arnold absolutely despised Mike can't be true?
Fair enough, Mike had a major inferiority complex. Yes, he was always so jealous of Arnold and all the attention he so effortlessly commanded.
Apparently these two almost came to blows in the change rooms at the Opera House.
Anyway, when Mike died Arnold sent a wreath to the funeral....Yes, Arnold got the final owning!
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when Mike died Arnold sent a wreath to the funeral
That's news to me.
Anyway, I don't think Arnold "despised" Mike, as you put it, but rather their conflict was mainly between their approach to training methods. Heavy Duty vs. High Volume...blah blah blah
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That's news to me.
Anyway, I don't think Arnold "despised" Mike, as you put it, but rather their conflict was mainly between their approach to training methods. Heavy Duty vs. High Volume...blah blah blah
And Arnold's last Olympia appearance as well; Mentzer had a right to be pissed then.
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And Arnold's last Olympia appearance as well; Mentzer had a right to be pissed then.
Yeah, I can see what you mean - bending the rule a bit so Arnold could compete. But it's almost like Mike feared Arnold competing as much of a stink Mike made about it.
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mentzer had the meltdown of meltdowns when arnold not only got to compete, he changed the rules and then he won the competition with glaring weaknesses ie lower body.
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Arnold didn't despise Mentzer - I think he merely saw him as another challenge to be overcome - and did it with ease. Mentzer was treated the same as Ferrigno, and was bitter about it until the day he died. Louie will be the same - they can never escape Arnold's shadow.
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Arnold seemed such a fun lovin guy back in the day. Surely all the reports that Arnold absolutely despised Mike can't be true?
Anyway, when Mike died Arnold sent a wreath to the funeral....Yes, Arnold got the final owning!
It's called respect Hank. The best example of "owning" by Arnold was Nasser's omission at the ASC 2008. HAHAHAHA!
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There was incredible tension between Arnold and Mike at the 1980 Olympia, apparently almost boiling over into a physical scuffle.
One thing is for certain, Mike lived with bitterness towards Arnold to the end!
Mike developed substance-abuse and alcohol issues, becoming more delusional and irrational as the years passed. These neurotic conditions may have also contributed to an early grave.
The chain-smoking and religious-fruit-cake-Mentzer is, i believe, your classic Narcissist; he could never deal with the fact that he was just another mortal, a very flawed and confused one at that!
And yes, Arnold did send flowers when it became apparent that Mike had died under what is now known as 'tragic circumstances'.
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There was incredible tension between Arnold and Mike at the 1980 Olympia, apparently almost boiling over into a physical scuffle.
One thing is for certain, Mike lived with bitterness towards Arnold to the end!
Mike developed substance-abuse and alcohol issues, becoming more delusional and irrational as the years passed. These neurotic conditions may have also contributed to an early grave.
The chain-smoking and religious-fruit-cake-Mentzer is, i believe, your classic Narcissist; he could never deal with the fact that he was just another mortal, a very flawed and confused one at that!
And yes, Arnold did send flowers when it became apparent that Mike had died under what is now known as 'tragic circumstances'.
So Hank, what your personal view on Joe Weider and Dorian Yates? and Dorian winning the 1997 Mr. Olympia? ::)
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Mike is a plagiarist!
He stole the principles of High Intensity Training (H.I.T) and claimed them as his own work! Pretty much sums the guy up:a fraud, a liar and a badsport!
He can at least claim that he was the Golden Era's truest and most original 'nut job'. Even Ayn Rand wanted nothing to do with him in the end!
Mentzer: I cannot think of one good thing he did for this so-called-sport!
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Mike is a plagiarist!
He stole the principles of High Intensity Training (H.I.T) and claimed them as his own work! Pretty much sums the guy up:a fraud, a liar and a badsport!
He can at least claim that he was the Golden Era's truest and most original 'nut job'. Even Ayn Rand wanted nothing to do with him in the end!
Mentzer: I cannot think of one good thing he did for this so-called-sport!
And to make things worse, Yates got into bed with Mentzer ...no wonder Arnie didn't want anything to do with the Yates era.
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There was incredible tension between Arnold and Mike at the 1980 Olympia, apparently almost boiling over into a physical scuffle.
Mike: Arnold, you better stay seated before I knock your teeth out!
Arnold: Mike, you couldn't knock anyone's teeth out with that bulging stomach, and brutal glasses.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
Samir: Arnold, you're an OWNING machine. Gimme five!
Arnold: Poor Mike. He was too easy.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1144.jpg)
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Note how Arnold avoids making eye-contact with Mentzer.....
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Actually having known both Mike and Arnold, the truth is that when Mentzer first came out on the scene, Arnold liked him very much. In fact he is quoted in a magazine back in 1977 as saying that "Mentzer impresses me not only with his fantastic physique, but the fact that he is very intelligent, articulate and well mannered." Mentzer made the mistake of writing articles, shortly afterwards, that claimed Arnold's training system was totally wrong and the only reason Arnold got so good was because he had great genetics." He tried to say Arnold and everyone who trained like him was wrong and that Heavy Duty was the only logical way to train. One thing about Arnold is that he won't tolerate someone saying that he is wrong or misguided. If you turn on him, he will make you his enemy and go out of his way to get some sort of revenge. Mentzer did have a strong sense of honor and justice and the sport of bodybuilding during the late 70's early 80's was an extremely important part of his life. When he finished 5th in 1980 and Arnold won, his real sense of purpose was shattered. Everything he was living for, in his eyes, became a horrible joke. That, combined with amphetamine abuse, caused his decline. Arnold did call Mike when Ray was sick, and they had words. They sort of buried the hatchet. Nowadays, Arnold admits to having regrets about some of the tactics he pulled when he was younger. Mentzer probably should have gotten past the 80 Olympia, regrouped, and he may have gone on to win it.
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According to Musclephone, "No."
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Hey Chem. Do you think Mike really meant what he said about Arnold's training style...or was it a ploy to sell his own system?
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Hey Chem...what ever happened to Mike's long time girl, Cathy Gelfo?
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Hey Chem...what ever happened to Mike's long time girl, Cathy Gelfo?
I don't know, but I met her when I stayed at Mentzer's place in 78 when I was about 15. I remember she absolutely idolized him back then. Every time he would speak, she would look at him like he was god. She seemed like a real nice girl, but if anyone said anything bad about Mike, she would probably have killed them!
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Mike's decline!
What a sad and pathetic creature Mike turned out to be.
How 'weak minded' to let some 'meaningless jibes' from Arnold impact on the rest of your life!
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Hey Chem. Do you think Mike really meant what he said about Arnold's training style...or was it a ploy to sell his own system?
No, he believed it. He really felt that Arnold and the "Volume trainers" only got good because of their genetics and steroids. His system was mostly a rehash of Arthur Jones, but he definitely believed it. But he used to do at least 3 sets an exercise back then, probably 9 sets for major muscle groups. It wasn't till the early 90's, he came up with the 1 set per exercise routine.
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I don't know, but I met her when I stayed at Mentzer's place in 78 when I was about 15. I remember she absolutely idolized him back then. Every time he would speak, she would look at him like he was god. She seemed like a real nice girl, but if anyone said anything bad about Mike, she would probably have killed them!
Chem:You probably will remember this: Cathy was sitting near Jack Neary, one of Weider's top writers in the 70's, during the prejudging of what I think was the 1976 Mr. Universe, won by Kal with Mentzer 2nd to him. Someone said within Cathy's earshot:"wow...look at Mentzer's calves...the best in the world."
To which Neary replied:"No. Waller has the best calves in the world."
Cathy said in an article that she hated Neary for a whole year after she heard him say that...until she met him about a year later.
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No, he believed it. He really felt that Arnold and the "Volume trainers" only got good because of their genetics and steroids. His system was mostly a rehash of Arthur Jones, but he definitely believed it. But he used to do at least 3 sets an exercise back then, probably 9 sets for major muscle groups. It wasn't till the early 90's, he came up with the 1 set per exercise routine.
Yeah...thought so...
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Mike's love of bodybuilding was only surpassed by his love for meth.
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Mike's love of bodybuilding was only surpassed by his love for meth.
Unfortunate.
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Chem:You probably will remember this: Cathy was sitting near Jack Neary, one of Weider's top writers in the 70's, during the prejudging of what I think was the 1976 Mr. Universe, won by Kal with Mentzer 2nd to him. Someone said within Cathy's earshot:"wow...look at Mentzer's calves...the best in the world."
To which Neary replied:"No. Waller has the best calves in the world."
Cathy said in an article that she hated Neary for a whole year after she heard him say that...until she met him about a year later.
I remember that article. Mentzer was pretty bright and supposedly had some medical knowledge, so I wonder why he didn't realize that amphetamine abuse can scramble your neurotransmitters and cause dementia and madness. He never was concerned much with health. He used to drink vodka right up to the day of the show.
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Yeah...his treatment of his own health was always perplexing. Weider used to write in articles that Mike had attended medical school, when, in fact, he'd actually taken premed courses at a school in Pa.
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Mike never fooled anyone. He would bore people to tears with his talk of HIT being the 'only true way to gain quality muscle and strength'.
Arnold knew he was a bullshit artist.
The HIT principles only contributed to major injuries, fatigue and burnout.
Mike went to his grave never admitting that he had actually stole the HIT principles. What a dog!
And yes, just another meth-head-alcoholic who only brought more unneeded controversary to a much maligned sport!
The guy was a living contradiction and compulsive liar.
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Well, I don't know, Hank. I'd imagine Mike Mentzer would have SOME redeeming value.
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Mike never fooled anyone. He would bore people to tears with his talk of HIT being the 'only true way to gain quality muscle and strength'.
Arnold knew he was a bullshit artist.
The HIT principles only contributed to major injuries, fatigue and burnout.
Mike went to his grave never admitting that he had actually stole the HIT principles. What a dog!
And yes, just another meth-head-alcoholic who only brought more unneeded controversary to a much maligned sport!
The guy was a living contradiction and compulsive liar.
That's a little harsh. Pre-1980 Mentzer was a man that was very driven, his mail order courses made him a lot of money, and he had a decent amount of integrity. He had a very impressive physique and he was very friendly and affable with his fans. Don't make him sound like some degenerate.
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Bob Kennedy wrote that, in one year, Mike's mail order business pulled in 800 thousand dollars gross. And remember, this was in late 70's early 80's dollars....
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I agree that HIT is nonsense.. Only would work if you're a drug user. Doing forced reps and trying to get everything out of 1-3 sets is murder.
The best method is 5x5 heavy compound exercises.
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I remember that article. Mentzer was pretty bright and supposedly had some medical knowledge, so I wonder why he didn't realize that amphetamine abuse can scramble your neurotransmitters and cause dementia and madness.
Because he learned that Ayn Rand had used amphetamines for many years, apparently with no ill effects. He probably smoked due to Rand too. That's my theory LOL. In Atlas Shrugged there's the line,
"I like to think of fire held in a man's hand. Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips. I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking. I wonder what great things have come from such hours. When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind--and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression."
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That's a little harsh. Pre-1980 Mentzer was a man that was very driven, his mail order courses made him a lot of money, and he had a decent amount of integrity. He had a very impressive physique and he was very friendly and affable with his fans. Don't make him sound like some degenerate.
Years back, I had a buddy (who absolutely idolized Mentzer) who went to a seminar that Mentzer was guesting at up here in Canada. He said Mentzer's behaviour was very 'odd' and he thought he was drunk; he used the word 'psychosis' to describe him, I remember. Poor guy, meets his hero and has the rug taken out from under him. He honestly looked like a kid who had been told that there was no Santa Claus. :-\
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.
Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.
The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.
When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.
Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.
Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.
The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.
When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.
Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.
Interesting to hear..
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.
Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.
The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.
When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.
Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.
That was very insightful. Thanks Vince.
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.
Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.
The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.
When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.
Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.
Vince:
Did YOU feel that Mike was not even close to winning that day?
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Vince:
Did YOU feel that Mike was not even close to winning that day?
From the photos I've seen, he cetainly looked better than 5th. But photos don't always tell the whole story. There is intangible things that sound almost metaphysical, like how you project yourself on stage. Zane was a master of that. He could literally "hypnotize" the judges into seeing what he wanted them too. Maybe Mentzer didn't project himself with total confidence that day. It may sound strange, but it can make a difference.
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Yeah, I always knew Zane was big on the mind and the powers of projection. And I also had MM placing higher than he did. I recall the following reactions to placings:
2) Dickerson: "Oh no!"
3) Zane:Smashed his trophy in the parking lot,"I thought Arnold was my friend."
4) Coe: Roared as he kicked at backstage tables and chairs:"Is there no justice?"
5) Mentzer:"I just blew a whole year's worth of training for a shit decision like that...I am through...bb just lost what could have been their best spokesman..."
1) Arnold: "They can all bitch and moan...but years from now, people will still say:Arnold, 7-times Mr. Olympis...and no one will ever beat that..."
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Yeah, I always knew Zane was big on the mind and the powers of projection. And I also had MM placing higher than he did. I recall the following reactions to placings:
2) Dickerson: "Oh no!"
3) Zane:Smashed his trophy in the parking lot,"I thought Arnold was my friend."
4) Coe: Roared as he kicked at backstage tables and chairs:"Is there no justice?"
5) Mentzer:"I just blew a whole year's worth of training for a shit decision like that...I am through...bb just lost what could have been their best spokesman..."
1) Arnold: "They can all bitch and moan...but years from now, people will still say:Arnold, 7-times Mr. Olympis...and no one will ever beat that..."
Wow, you have a great memory. I remeber Mentzer's statement and Arnold's, but I forgot the others. Guess Ronnie and Lee proved Arnie wrong.
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.
Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.
The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.
When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.
Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.
thanks for your contributions to this forum
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Mike: Arnold, you better stay seated before I knock your teeth out!
Arnold: Mike, you couldn't knock anyone's teeth out with that bulging stomach, and brutal glasses.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
Samir: Arnold, you're an OWNING machine. Gimme five!
Arnold: Poor Mike. He was too easy.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1144.jpg)
Now thats funny ;D ;D
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Arnold's reaction upon hearing Mike Mentzer's passing... :D
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1145.jpg)
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pollux, who is that with arnold? joe gold?
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pollux, who is that with arnold? joe gold?
Yes, it is. :)
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Mike is a plagiarist!
He stole the principles of High Intensity Training (H.I.T) and claimed them as his own work!
i think mike claimed that he took HIT to it's last and final application, basically by downregulating volume and frequency. and i don't think he stole the principals of HIT coz he acknowledged Arthur Jones many times
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Wow, you have a great memory. I remeber Mentzer's statement and Arnold's, but I forgot the others. Guess Ronnie and Lee proved Arnie wrong.
Indeed they did, Chem.
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Now thats funny ;D ;D
Arnold slapping five with Samir ocurred prior to his 'confrontation' with Mentzer. Arnold had to appear contrite after "Ben has talked to me and told me something sensical, so I withdraw my request for separate weight classes"-he said something to that effect.
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Arnold's reaction upon hearing Mike Mentzer's passing... :D
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1145.jpg)
Yes, that's Joe Gold...and that is NOT their reaction to MM's passing.
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After the 80 Olympia, I attended seminars given by Coe, Tinnerino, Szkalak, and Lance Dreher that were held at my Gym in North Haven, CT (Walczak gave one, too).
At least both Coe and Tinnerino said they would not compete in the 81 O because Franco was slated to win it-they were right.
I think Tinnerino may have competed anyway...Coe, Zane and some other top guys did not. Don't recall what Dreher said, But Szkalak was already doing WABBA stuff anyhow by then.
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Interesting side-note: Tinnerino went to jail for pandering shortly after I'd attended his seminar.....
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Arnold slapping five with Samir ocurred prior to his 'confrontation' with Mentzer.
I'll take what you said there with a grain of salt since I HIGHLY doubt you were standing right there at the moment that happened.
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that is NOT their reaction to MM's passing.
It's a joke that went WAY over your head. ::)
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No it didn't. I didn't know it was from you, and I know you are the big Arnold guy here. Cool.
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No it didn't. I didn't know it was from you, and I know you are the big Arnold guy here. Cool.
Indeed, I am. ;)
I'm Getbig's BIGGEST Arnold fan. ;D
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I'm very surprised that of all the footage that's out there surrounding the 1980 Mr. Olympia (ie. The Comeback; 1980 Mr. Olympia DVDs) none have shown this moment on film...
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1146.jpg)
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I'll take what you said there with a grain of salt since I HIGHLY doubt you were standing right there at the moment that happened.
I have never and am not trying to impress upon anybody that I was there.
I was a sophomore in high school in Connecticut at the time.
However, I am a student of bb history and clearly remember the Muscle & Fitness Special 1980 Mr. O issue....the sequence of events was very well-chronicled in this and other issues.
Arnold was contrite once Weider gave him a talking-to. Simple as that. Che,ist can corroborate easily here :).
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mentzer was an absolute jones disciple and he followed his theories to the letter, even when jones revised his recommendations to even shorter sessions and more recovery time.
mentzer did not have an original idea at all. he basically rehashed jones' training theories and anne's philosophy.
jones was already calling bs on high volume and thus contradicting arnold back when he was pedalling his nautilus hardware and touting casey viator as the next big thing.
the fact that everyone, hit/volume, was using copious amounts of steroids was never mentioned by either camp.
the fact is, arnold never claimed jones'/mentzer's systems didn't work or were inferior. it was mentzer and jones making the claims when the reality was that neither mentzer or viator ever reached the level of physical development that arnold did, which would tend to indicate that the hit crew were full of shit.
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I would ask Jummy Thomson what went on between Arnold and Mentzer.
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remember the Muscle & Fitness Special 1980 Mr. O issue....the sequence of events was very well-chronicled in this and other issues.
I have that issue, as well as others, that cover the '80 Mr. Olympia and don't ever recall the whole "Samir high fives Arnold BEFORE Mentzer confrontation" as you've said, which is what I'm debating. For all we know, Samir could've given Arnold props for maybe saying something to Mike that we Getbiggers would consider OWNING.
You don't know. I don't know. Hell, maybe even Vince Basil himself doesn't know. You have your view when that happened, and I have mine. But if I am wrong, I'll stand corrected. ;)
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Mike is a plagiarist!
He stole the principles of High Intensity Training (H.I.T) and claimed them as his own work! Pretty much sums the guy up:a fraud, a liar and a badsport!
He can at least claim that he was the Golden Era's truest and most original 'nut job'. Even Ayn Rand wanted nothing to do with him in the end!
Mentzer: I cannot think of one good thing he did for this so-called-sport!
Mike frequently credited Author Jones. In fact, he considered Author Jones for his bodybuilding rebirth. Mike's contribution to bodybuilding is immense. No use enumerating them but just the fact the people still discuss him decades after he retired says something. Any time the subject of Mike and his training principles are brought up on any board the heated discussion goes on and on. What other bodybuilder's training principles are discussed as much as Mentzer's? Iron Man has a whole section every month devoted solely to Mentzer's training methods written by John Little.
I didn't even mention his unsurpassed mustache.
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it was all about popin dbols lift and genetics, HIT and other bullshit "training systems" are a joke.
most of em were under the influence of drugs and started dramas for nothing, anrold owned them all cause he had better genetics and drive and was able to see ahead of em all instead of just poping orals like candies.
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I have that issue, as well as others, that cover the '80 Mr. Olympia and don't ever recall the whole "Samir high fives Arnold BEFORE Mentzer confrontation" as you've said, which is what I'm debating. For all we know, Samir could've given Arnold props for maybe saying something to Mike that we Getbiggers would consider OWNING.
You don't know. I don't know. Hell, maybe even Vince Basil himself doesn't know. You have your view when that happened, and I have mine. But if I am wrong, I'll stand corrected. ;)
Cool. But I am sure you'd agree that Weider would spin it to his liking, regardless of the actual events.
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Cool. But I am sure you'd agree that Weider would spin it to his liking, regardless of the actual events.
That we're in agreement with. ;)
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(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
Does anyone know the real story behind this photo?! ???
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I would ask Jummy Thomson what went on between Arnold and Mentzer.
And all he'd give you is a story about him licking Mike and Ray Mentzer's ballsacs.
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Does anyone know the real story behind this photo?! ???
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
My assumption is that's the moment Mike and Arnold almost came to blows when Arnold threw the comment about Mike losing last year's Olympia due to his big stomach.
But wait! Who's that in the background of the photo? I could be wrong, but it looks to be Getbig's very own, Vince Basil!
Vince, if this is you, speak on this moment in the photo!
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In the background is:
Ben Weider
Vince Basile
Michael Walczak, M.D. (One of the judges)
Mits Kawashima (Mits' Gym in Hawaii)
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I remember in one magazine where Mentzer referred to Franco Columbu as, "Anold's weak-willed Namby Pamby Lackey"..who would jump onstage,with a towel, to wipe Arnold's sweat off his forehead. I always got a chuckle out of that line.
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Frank Zane would often like to take little jabs at Franco. Saying things like: Franco never had a probem with kneeling down before Arnold and posing ( I paraphrase).
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I agree that HIT is nonsense.. Only would work if you're a drug user. Doing forced reps and trying to get everything out of 1-3 sets is murder.
The best method is 5x5 heavy compound exercises.
An ex Mr. Universe Ahmet Enunlu, exactly told what you said.
HIT training is suited for drug users, but he doesn't use 5x5 method, he uses more of a high volume training.
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Interesting side-note: Tinnerino went to jail for pandering shortly after I'd attended his seminar.....
Tinnerino was jailed in the 1970's for hetro and homo pimping. Bob Birdsong was one of his most prolific whores. I remember Bob coming into the gym one morning when I was living in California and saying that he had a rough night of drinking and whoring the night before. "My mouth feels like the inside of a Parrot's cage" said Bob. "I'm not surprized, you had a "Cockatwo" in it last night grinned Dennis.
Did he go to jail in the 1980's as well ?
No wonder Bob and Dennis are such christians (both ministers) now. Another example of finding religion through dirty guilt.
Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was. Arnold hated the way Mike tried to convince everyone he was in pre med. The only bodybuilder mentally thicker than Mike was Tom "buy my used trunks" Platz. He was always spouting about being into phylosophy but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate himself.
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Mike's decline!
What a sad and pathetic creature Mike turned out to be.
How 'weak minded' to let some 'meaningless jibes' from Arnold impact on the rest of your life!
I think if the truth were known you should keep your stupid mouth shut, you know nothing of what you speak, idiot!
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Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was.
I agree with this 100%. Most of the people here, if not nearly all of them don't really know Ayn Rand's philosophy and neither did Mike Mentzer. Mentzer used to liberally sprinkle a lot of what Ayn Rand said in his writings, after having rehashed them to make it seem like they were his own thoughts and formulations. Far from it. And a lot of his training principles were just rehashed stuff that was originally coined by Arthur Jones.
I've read plenty of Mike Mentzer's writings and all of Ayn Rand's writings quite a few times and I can honestly say that Mike Mentzer was not an intellectual or original thinker by any means. All he did was memorize a bit of Objectivism and then injected a lot of it in his writings in key areas to try and make it appear like the whole integrated piece was a sound and original principle of training based on a philosophy of rationality. So he really didn't come up with anything new or original - he just tried to make it appear like he did.
Unfortunately for him, the end result became the equivalent of a cheap fabric that was full of patches borrowed from somewhere else that just didn't make for a masterpiece like he seems to think it would have :-\
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I agree with this 100%. Most of the people here, if not nearly all of them don't really know Ayn Rand's philosophy and neither did Mike Mentzer. Mentzer used to liberally sprinkle a lot of what Ayn Rand said in his writings, after having rehashed them to make it seem like they were his own thoughts and formulations. Far from it. And a lot of his training principles were just rehashed stuff that was originally coined by Arthur Jones.
:-\
Man, don't get me started.....You know, fcuk it, it's a beautiful Sunday and if Waddy wants to believe in his New-Age gobbledeegook there is no reason why you shouldn't believe in Objectivism. I. just. don't. have. the. energy. today. :-\ ;)
/agree with the mentzer bit, tho
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I remember in one magazine where Mentzer referred to Franco Columbu as, "Anold's weak-willed Namby Pamby Lackey"..who would jump onstage,with a towel, to wipe Arnold's sweat off his forehead. I always got a chuckle out of that line.
Haha...I recall that too :)
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Tinnerino was jailed in the 1970's for hetro and homo pimping. Bob Birdsong was one of his most prolific whores. I remember Bob coming into the gym one morning when I was living in California and saying that he had a rough night of drinking and whoring the night before. "My mouth feels like the inside of a Parrot's cage" said Bob. "I'm not surprized, you had a "Cockatwo" in it last night grinned Dennis.
Did he go to jail in the 1980's as well ?
No wonder Bob and Dennis are such christians (both ministers) now. Another example of finding religion through dirty guilt.
Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was. Arnold hated the way Mike tried to convince everyone he was in pre med. The only bodybuilder mentally thicker than Mike was Tom "buy my used trunks" Platz. He was always spouting about being into phylosophy but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate himself.
I believe he did a brief stint in jail in very early 80's
Yes, I recall Arnold getting riled at Mentzer's pre-med talk. He'd speak disainfully about it, inferring that it was not as Mentzer purveyed it to be...and he , I think, was correct.
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Actually having known both Mike and Arnold, the truth is that when Mentzer first came out on the scene, Arnold liked him very much. In fact he is quoted in a magazine back in 1977 as saying that "Mentzer impresses me not only with his fantastic physique, but the fact that he is very intelligent, articulate and well mannered." Mentzer made the mistake of writing articles, shortly afterwards, that claimed Arnold's training system was totally wrong and the only reason Arnold got so good was because he had great genetics." He tried to say Arnold and everyone who trained like him was wrong and that Heavy Duty was the only logical way to train. One thing about Arnold is that he won't tolerate someone saying that he is wrong or misguided. If you turn on him, he will make you his enemy and go out of his way to get some sort of revenge. Mentzer did have a strong sense of honor and justice and the sport of bodybuilding during the late 70's early 80's was an extremely important part of his life. When he finished 5th in 1980 and Arnold won, his real sense of purpose was shattered. Everything he was living for, in his eyes, became a horrible joke. That, combined with amphetamine abuse, caused his decline. Arnold did call Mike when Ray was sick, and they had words. They sort of buried the hatchet. Nowadays, Arnold admits to having regrets about some of the tactics he pulled when he was younger. Mentzer probably should have gotten past the 80 Olympia, regrouped, and he may have gone on to win it.
ya good post
that's why most people couldn't stand mentzer with his elitist attitude and "his way was the only" it was well documented by many who trained with mentzer that he did 2-3 sometimes 4 times the volume of set and reps he recommended.....
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Man, don't get me started.....You know, fcuk it, it's a beautiful Sunday and if Waddy wants to believe in his New-Age gobbledeegook there is no reason why you shouldn't believe in Objectivism. I. just. don't. have. the. energy. today. :-\ ;)
/agree with the mentzer bit, tho
LOL! You're not the first one to say that to me ;D
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Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner.
I read some of Mike Mentzer's articles, and I disagree. His so-called theories were pseudoscientific nonsense. Deductive logic is worthless if the premises are wrong.
CD
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Does anyone know the real story behind this photo?! ???
It was because Arnold would refuse to sign the form to remove the weight classess, apparently he still wanted the light and heavy weight divisions. He was the only one, but Joe Weider took him to one side and made him do it.
Boy Coe actually asked Arnold what his explanation was for not doing so and Arnold replied 'Why dont you just be a man?' which really had nothing to do with the question.
It was then that Mike got up and started to throw threats
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An ex Mr. Universe Ahmet Enunlu, exactly told what you said.
HIT training is suited for drug users, but he doesn't use 5x5 method, he uses more of a high volume training.
Not to mention the risk of injuries.. Naturals cannot afford joint injuries by trying to take every single set to all muscular failure, and then followed by forced reps and whatnot. Plus the unaturally long rest periods would simply not work if you're not on drugs. Besides all that, I don't think the average person can do HIT training correctly. Lets face it, it takes balls to the wall to try and get everything out of a few sets.. Most people would just give up and would walk away without properly exhausting the muscle(s). Volume is simply easier.. And I'd say heavy trainer with a moderate amount of sets is also easier, and is also much better suited for a natural because it builds both strength and size at the same time. Last, I don't think there's the need to complicate training so much. It's very simply; just work hard and use full ROM with free weights. It's not fucking rocket science. Nutrition is far more important, followed by of course genetics.
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Chemist, did you know or meet Ray's girlfriend Kathy Miranda around 85 to 86 or so. She had an awesome body and was very cute. She was Manny Perry's cousin.
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It was because Arnold would refuse to sign the form to remove the weight classess, apparently he still wanted the light and heavy weight divisions. He was the only one, but Joe Weider took him to one side and made him do it.
Boy Coe actually asked Arnold what his explanation was for not doing so and Arnold replied 'Why dont you just be a man?' which really had nothing to do with the question.
It was then that Mike got up and started to throw threats
Yes, that is exactly hbow it was chronicled...Boyer asked a simple question, and politley, and Arnold gave his sarcastic non-answer
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Not to mention the risk of injuries.. Naturals cannot afford joint injuries by trying to take every single set to all muscular failure, and then followed by forced reps and whatnot. Plus the unaturally long rest periods would simply not work if you're not on drugs. Besides all that, I don't think the average person can do HIT training correctly. Lets face it, it takes balls to the wall to try and get everything out of a few sets.. Most people would just give up and would walk away without properly exhausting the muscle(s). Volume is simply easier.. And I'd say heavy trainer with a moderate amount of sets is also easier, and is also much better suited for a natural because it builds both strength and size at the same time. Last, I don't think there's the need to complicate training so much. It's very simply; just work hard and use full ROM with free weights. It's not fucking rocket science. Nutrition is far more important, followed by of course genetics.
good post bro! me thinks dat da name of da game is progressive overload 8)
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My assumption is that's the moment Mike and Arnold almost came to blows when Arnold threw the comment about Mike losing last year's Olympia due to his big stomach.
But wait! Who's that in the background of the photo? I could be wrong, but it looks to be Getbig's very own, Vince Basile!
Vince, if this is you, speak on this moment in the photo!
That is Peter McCarthy in the background. He should have been the Australian judge but no one told him the meeting was on so he was late and Brendan Ryan judged instead. Quite silly to me because Peter was a many times Mr Australia while Brendan won a junior title. I did an analysis of the results and had they used the scores from Peter instead of Brendan then Chris Dickerson would have won. The next time I see Peter I will ask him about that confrontation because he was right there.
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I could never get over how Arnold could not make eye contact with Mentzer. Scared? I have read here by a few that Arnold had an aversion to fighting....
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I agree with this 100%. Most of the people here, if not nearly all of them don't really know Ayn Rand's philosophy and neither did Mike Mentzer. Mentzer used to liberally sprinkle a lot of what Ayn Rand said in his writings, after having rehashed them to make it seem like they were his own thoughts and formulations. Far from it. And a lot of his training principles were just rehashed stuff that was originally coined by Arthur Jones.
I've read plenty of Mike Mentzer's writings and all of Ayn Rand's writings quite a few times and I can honestly say that Mike Mentzer was not an intellectual or original thinker by any means. All he did was memorize a bit of Objectivism and then injected a lot of it in his writings in key areas to try and make it appear like the whole integrated piece was a sound and original principle of training based on a philosophy of rationality. So he really didn't come up with anything new or original - he just tried to make it appear like he did.
Unfortunately for him, the end result became the equivalent of a cheap fabric that was full of patches borrowed from somewhere else that just didn't make for a masterpiece like he seems to think it would have :-\
It is obvious to me that the writings of Mike Mentzer are philosophical discourses. He was systematic and had a structure and cohesion that is the hallmark of philosophy. His theory may be mistaken but his work stands out as one of the few hypertrophy theories ever. Besides that he linked hypertrophy theory to other philosophy. I don't support objectivism but Mike did and I always was amazed to read such discourse in a bodybuilding magazine.
It is easy to be mistaken or partly mistaken when it comes to theories about anything that is complex. Mike always supported his ideas with anecdotal reports about his clients who all made progress according to him. I don't recall that there has ever been a definitive debate about hypertrophy theory. All that I have seen are various people championing one theory or another. I am not aware that anyone has ever written a doctoral thesis on human maximum muscular hypertrophy. There literally are no experts out there on this subject but many claim that they know all about it.
In my opinion, based on what he wrote, I would credit Mike with sufficient intelligence to have done a medical degree. I wonder if Arnold could have done one? Apparently he went to some college in LA but I don't know the particulars but it was not one of the esteemed universities. Mike never accepted Arnold as his intellectual peer and rightly so.
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I could never get over how Arnold could not make eye contact with Mentzer. Scared? I have read here by a few that Arnold had an aversion to fighting....
How tall is Mentzer? Arnold would have kicked his ass in a second.
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I could never get over how Arnold could not make eye contact with Mentzer. Scared? I have read here by a few that Arnold had an aversion to fighting....
Nah.....Arnold did that as one more thing to antagonize Metzner and get him even more riled up. "Why aren't you looking at me? Are you scared...come on bitch!" and then if you could even fathom something like this happening in this scenario; when Metzner is concentrating on why Arnold is not looking at him and concerned about whatever else is going through his mind....that's when Arnold would pop him. But Arnold wouldn't do that...he likes to fuck with peoples minds too much- again, by not looking at Mike, this only adds fuel to the fire.
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Arnold loves to get the last word in and I have personal experience of him getting up to put a motion I made down. So he did the same thing at the 80 Olympia and relied on his status to win the day. Mentzer wasn't buying that so confronted Arnold. Mike the philosopher was no match for Arnold the sophist and politician.
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Chemist, did you know or meet Ray's girlfriend Kathy Miranda around 85 to 86 or so. She had an awesome body and was very cute. She was Manny Perry's cousin.
No, I only met Ray once but it was around 1979.
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It is obvious to me that the writings of Mike Mentzer are philosophical discourses. He was systematic and had a structure and cohesion that is the hallmark of philosophy. His theory may be mistaken but his work stands out as one of the few hypertrophy theories ever. Besides that he linked hypertrophy theory to other philosophy. I don't support objectivism but Mike did and I always was amazed to read such discourse in a bodybuilding magazine.
It is easy to be mistaken or partly mistaken when it comes to theories about anything that is complex. Mike always supported his ideas with anecdotal reports about his clients who all made progress according to him. I don't recall that there has ever been a definitive debate about hypertrophy theory. All that I have seen are various people championing one theory or another. I am not aware that anyone has ever written a doctoral thesis on human maximum muscular hypertrophy. There literally are no experts out there on this subject but many claim that they know all about it.
In my opinion, based on what he wrote, I would credit Mike with sufficient intelligence to have done a medical degree. I wonder if Arnold could have done one? Apparently he went to some college in LA but I don't know the particulars but it was not one of the esteemed universities. Mike never accepted Arnold as his intellectual peer and rightly so.
I think Arnold got a correspondence degree from the University of Wisconsin
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Arnold loves to get the last word in and I have personal experience of him getting up to put a motion I made down. So he did the same thing at the 80 Olympia and relied on his status to win the day. Mentzer wasn't buying that so confronted Arnold. Mike the philosopher was no match for Arnold the sophist and politician.
Yes, and Arnold lost the last word on that one.
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I think Arnold got a correspondence degree from the University of Wisconsin
Bachelor of Arts Degree with an individualized major in international marketing of fitness and business administration - Nov. '79 ;)
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Boy Coe actually asked Arnold what his explanation was for not doing so and Arnold replied 'Why dont you just be a man?' which really had nothing to do with the question.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/Arnie_and_Boyer.jpg)
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Note how Arnold avoids making eye-contact with Mentzer.....
Because Arnold felt above him. It was a condescending form of treatment on Arnold's behalf.
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Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was. Arnold hated the way Mike tried to convince everyone he was in pre med. The only bodybuilder mentally thicker than Mike was Tom "buy my used trunks" Platz. He was always spouting about being into phylosophy but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate himself.
BEfore you knock another man's intelligence, run a spell check, because almost every other word of your's is spelled incorrectly.
You - intellegent
Proper - intelligent
You - psudo
Proper - pseudo
you - phylosophy
Proper - philosophy
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It is obvious to me that the writings of Mike Mentzer are philosophical discourses. He was systematic and had a structure and cohesion that is the hallmark of philosophy. His theory may be mistaken but his work stands out as one of the few hypertrophy theories ever.
SNIP...
In my opinion, based on what he wrote, I would credit Mike with sufficient intelligence to have done a medical degree.
Mentzer may have been intelligent, but his writing and ideas suffered from a lack of basic scientific education. Actually, I have seen quite a few characters that remind me of him, usually people with pompous blogs. People that are intelligent, self-confident and arrogant when they claim to have solved all kinds of scientific riddles, yet they lack any kind of academic credentials. While one should not dismiss anybody based on credentials, I believe a lack of basic science education can lead to grave mistakes, as was clearly seen in Mentzers work.
CD
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The philosophy of science suggests that most theories are false. When a theory approximates the truth then that is progress. Mike was probably wrong about hypertrophy but he was consistent in what he wrote and that is still an impressive treatise.
I think just about everyone underestimated Arnold's intelligence. If you judge a person by what he has achieved then Arnold's record is outstanding when you consider he succeeded in a foreign country. I mean, how lucky was he to portray a machine in those science fiction movies? His accent helped him because he seemed foreign. The Terminator from the future should have had flawless English but there you are, a glitch, but believable on the screen.
I never felt Arnold was that smart and perhaps neither did Mike. Arnold exceeded us both by a wide margin when it comes to motivation and determination. Most people give up but not guys like Arnold. They use people and find a way to succeed when completely against the odds. That take an exceptional person to do that.
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The philosophy of science suggests that most theories are false. When a theory approximates the truth then that is progress. Mike was probably wrong about hypertrophy but he was consistent in what he wrote and that is still an impressive treatise.
If Mentzer was a philosopher, he was not very good in the field of philosophy of science. Scientific evidence is fallible and probabilistic as it is founded on empirical methods and induction. Mentzer seemed to believe that he by use of deductive logic somehow could lift himself (and his theories) up by his bootstraps. I actually found it painful to read his Flex column.
CD
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The philosophy of science suggests that most theories are false. When a theory approximates the truth then that is progress. Mike was probably wrong about hypertrophy but he was consistent in what he wrote and that is still an impressive treatise.
I think just about everyone underestimated Arnold's intelligence. If you judge a person by what he has achieved then Arnold's record is outstanding when you consider he succeeded in a foreign country. I mean, how lucky was he to portray a machine in those science fiction movies? His accent helped him because he seemed foreign. The Terminator from the future should have had flawless English but there you are, a glitch, but believable on the screen.
I never felt Arnold was that smart and perhaps neither did Mike. Arnold exceeded us both by a wide margin when it comes to motivation and determination. Most people give up but not guys like Arnold. They use people and find a way to succeed when completely against the odds. That take an exceptional person to do that.
This admiration should be tempered by the fact that Arnold almost certainly achieved what he has by using and trampling other people. I think you'll find that such callous and offhand behaviour in regards to others is the execption, not the norm.
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Because Arnold felt above him. It was a condescending form of treatment on Arnold's behalf.
MY impression is that he knew he was acting in a poor-sport manner, and he was ashamed to look at Mentzer. Just my impression.
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This admiration should be tempered by the fact that Arnold almost certainly achieved what he has by using and trampling other people. I think you'll find that such callous and offhand behaviour in regards to others is the execption, not the norm.
I agree that Arnold has trampled many, many people on his way to the top. But I feel that this behavior is prevalent in many who have risen to such heights. Maybe not to A's degree, however.
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I agree that Arnold has trampled many, many people on his way to the top. But I feel that this behavior is prevalent in many who have risen to such heights. Maybe not to A's degree, however.
Agree. Such people have many of the criteria that the DSM-IV refers to as a psychopathic personality. I was just countering Vince's Pollyanna view of Arnold is all. :)
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For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
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For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
Arnold = smarter than you. :-*
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For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
That a lowly Austrian corporal almost brought the world to ruin is also unthinkable. You decide if credit is due. ;)
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BEfore you knock another man's intelligence, run a spell check, because almost every other word of your's is spelled incorrectly.
You - intellegent
Proper - intelligent
You - psudo
Proper - pseudo
you - phylosophy
Proper - philosophy
Only little girls in spelling contests and poofy wee fairies care about spelling.
It has nothing to do with intelligence as plenty of autistic and Downs people are exceptional spellers.
I am a numbers man, CA (CPA in USA) to trade.
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It is obvious to me that the writings of Mike Mentzer are philosophical discourses. He was systematic and had a structure and cohesion that is the hallmark of philosophy. His theory may be mistaken but his work stands out as one of the few hypertrophy theories ever. Besides that he linked hypertrophy theory to other philosophy. I don't support objectivism but Mike did and I always was amazed to read such discourse in a bodybuilding magazine.
First of all it's not his theory - he called it his own even though it was all devised by Arthur Jones, who being the true genius here probably came up with it because he wanted to spin a new marketing angle when he introduced his line of machines viz. Nautilus. Nothing like a new, exciting line of machines with an unprecedented design that promises to deliver the same, if not better results with just 1 set rather than the usual 3 or more sets that was the norm those days.
The fact that Mike M was a good writer doesn't mean he was a Philosopher. He didn't really come up with a new or original metaphysical statement or anything. He just injected a lot of philosophy (that was Ayn Rand's) in his writings. If that makes him a philosopher, then anyone who quotes a philosopher automatically becomes one.
It is easy to be mistaken or partly mistaken when it comes to theories about anything that is complex. Mike always supported his ideas with anecdotal reports about his clients who all made progress according to him. I don't recall that there has ever been a definitive debate about hypertrophy theory. All that I have seen are various people championing one theory or another. I am not aware that anyone has ever written a doctoral thesis on human maximum muscular hypertrophy. There literally are no experts out there on this subject but many claim that they know all about it. /color]
Again, he didn't really mention any specific examples - he just said that his clients improved in terms of their shape, strength etc which just about every personal trainer can do. His theory was false and a lot of his conclusions were non-sequitors. To give you an example, he frequently said that hitting a muscle is the same as hitting dynamite with a hammer - you can keep hitting it mildly and it would never go off. But if you hit it hard enough once, it will and the same therefore, goes for inducing growth through hypertrophy.
Going by that example, then why get the person to do a single set to failure? Why not just get him to do his 1 rep max and say that he went to failure, therefore the workout is over and that's all he needs to do? There isn't really much to hypertrophy - you stimulate growth through progressive overload and if you do everything else right (diet, lifestyle etc), you are going to see some change, regardless of whether you work out at 70% or 80% of your capacity or whatever. Of course, the actual solution is not so simplistic, but that's the general idea on which the different theories are based upon.
In my opinion, based on what he wrote, I would credit Mike with sufficient intelligence to have done a medical degree. I wonder if Arnold could have done one? Apparently he went to some college in LA but I don't know the particulars but it was not one of the esteemed universities. Mike never accepted Arnold as his intellectual peer and rightly so.
I'd say Arnold is the (way more) intelligent one of the two. If Arnold put his mind to doing what Mike Mentzer was i.e. talking about theories and such, I'm sure he'd have been equally successful in his own way, even though his linguistic skills may not be on par with Mentzer's. Arnold did something that's a lot harder and way more rarer - he accomplished in reality what Mike Mentzer could never do but only talk about. And let's not forget how much drive he must have had to overcome the frequent handicap of not being a local - something that Mike never had to worry about. There is no comparison between Arnold and Mike.
As to Arnold not being ethical all the time about everything - you can't go to the top without ruffling a few feathers on the way ;)
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Again, he didn't really mention any specific examples - he just said that his clients improved in terms of their shape, strength etc which just about every personal trainer can do. His theory was false and a lot of his conclusions were non-sequitors. To give you an example, he frequently said that hitting a muscle is the same as hitting dynamite with a hammer - you can keep hitting it mildly and it would never go off. But if you hit it hard enough once, it will and the same therefore, goes for inducing growth through hypertrophy.
Going by that example, then why get the person to do a single set to failure? Why not just get him to do his 1 rep max and say that he went to failure, therefore the workout is over and that's all he needs to do? There isn't really much to hypertrophy - you stimulate growth through progressive overload and if you do everything else right (diet, lifestyle etc), you are going to see some change, regardless of whether you work out at 70% or 80% of your capacity or whatever. Of course, the actual solution is not such so simplistic, but that's the general idea on which the different theories are based upon.
it seems to me that the key tenant of HIT is intensity of effort, and while i agree that instensity of effort is a key aspect of hypertrophy, i think that the very baseline of hypertrophy is "progressive overload" i'm curious, what's you take on this?
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For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
Can you give him credit for being THE BEST bodybuilder in 1980 via the Mr. Olympia? ;D
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i think arnold could hardly stand to be criticised as the king of bodybuilders.
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Agree. Such people have many of the criteria that the DSM-IV refers to as a psychopathic personality. I was just countering Vince's Pollyanna view of Arnold is all. :)
Indeed.
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For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
Most definitely. Often forgotten is the fact that along with all the other obstcles that comes with such success, he had to learn our language.
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That a lowly Austrian corporal almost brought the world to ruin is also unthinkable. You decide if credit is due. ;)
Excellent point.
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Can you give him credit for being THE BEST bodybuilder in 1980 via the Mr. Olympia? ;D
My opinion is that I can't. :-\
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I could never get over how Arnold could not make eye contact with Mentzer. Scared? I have read here by a few that Arnold had an aversion to fighting....
Unless fighting is part of your profession it's not worth it.
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Unless fighting is part of your profession it's not worth it.
haha...yes, very true.
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My opinion is that I can't. :-\
In your opinion, what place would you have given Arnold?
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Well, Pollux, that is a tough one. I hate to penalize Arnold, he did look great. Its just that, like many, I remember him from 75 and 74, when he was incomparable. Those who could have won as well as Arnold and I would not have complained were, I felt, Zane, Coe, Mentzer, even Roger Walker looked great.
In all due respect, I never was enamored with Dickerson's physique. Can't see what the judges saw....
I also realize that this was kind of a non-answer to your question. Alas....
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Well, Pollux, that is a tough one. I hate to penalize Arnold, he did look great. Its just that, like many, I remember him from 75 and 74, when he was incomparable. Those who could have won as well as Arnold and I would not have complained were, I felt, Zane, Coe, Mentzer, even Roger Walker looked great.
In all due respect, I never was enamored with Dickerson's physique. Can't see what the judges saw....
I also realize that this was kind of a non-answer to your question. Alas....
Really?! :o
Wow. I'm not a fan of Chris Dickerson - at all. But if anyone could've beaten Arnold I thought it was him!
I think some people don't see Arnold as the 1980 Mr. Olympia winner because they seem to compare Arnold to his former self, if you will, instead of those he went up against.
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Yes, Pollux. I agree with your thoughts on Arnold. I do put him in the group of Coe, Zane and Mentzer as any of them being a worthy winner. Controversy will always abound, anyhow!
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i think scwarzenegger suffered from megalomania.he could not stand being criticised. he had to be worshipped.
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for a german to speak english is not the most diificult thing in the world . john fair article wrote a great article on mr o 1980 in IGH FILES .
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for a german to speak english is not the most diificult thing in the world . john fair article wrote a great article on mr o 1980 in IGH FILES .
why did you bump a 5 year old topic?
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The ChemistV2 some great posts
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The ChemistV2 some great posts
I was just going to say the same thing. That was some insightful stuff. I knew Mike and everything Chemist said was spot-on.
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Mentzer loathed Arnold.... not the other way around
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Mike: Arnold, you better stay seated before I knock your teeth out!
Arnold: Mike, you couldn't knock anyone's teeth out with that bulging stomach, and brutal glasses.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
Samir: Arnold, you're an OWNING machine. Gimme five!
Arnold: Poor Mike. He was too easy.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1144.jpg)
this was great ;D
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why did you bump a 5 year old topic?
To be honest, it's better than a lot of the shit that has been getting posted recently. I actually enjoyed reading it.
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a damn good pic of Mighty Mike 8)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dJvJ1dXLCFE/TrjzqXYWGvI/AAAAAAAAAHY/9HHRRD9WboU/s1600/mike-mentzer-big.jpg)
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Mike's decline!
What a sad and pathetic creature Mike turned out to be.
How 'weak minded' to let some 'meaningless jibes' from Arnold impact on the rest of your life!
Well, most of us will go out of this world bitter and twisted reflecting on why we didn't give life the best shot.
Many a bodybuilder has ended up in a wheel chair after wrecking their knees from squatting, then turning to social rec drugs to find solace.
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Joe- "make sure Franco escort you out thru the back door ,Ben will be waiting in the Sydney IFBB van with all your clothes."
Arnold 'WOOSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
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"'Don't look now but Franco is distracting Mentzer at the main door"
Arnold- I don't care, the sandom its in another Suitcase"
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kiwiol is a fool for stating Mike never gave specifics, read his last book (or Wisdom of Mike Mentzer after death) and then come back into this debate with some knowledge ???
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I'm very surprised that of all the footage that's out there surrounding the 1980 Mr. Olympia (ie. The Comeback; 1980 Mr. Olympia DVDs) none have shown this moment on film...
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1146.jpg)
^^
You can see "The Comeback" on YouTube...
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Tinnerino was jailed in the 1970's for hetro and homo pimping. Bob Birdsong was one of his most prolific whores. I remember Bob coming into the gym one morning when I was living in California and saying that he had a rough night of drinking and whoring the night before. "My mouth feels like the inside of a Parrot's cage" said Bob. "I'm not surprized, you had a "Cockatwo" in it last night grinned Dennis.
Did he go to jail in the 1980's as well ?
No wonder Bob and Dennis are such christians (both ministers) now. Another example of finding religion through dirty guilt.
Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was. Arnold hated the way Mike tried to convince everyone he was in pre med. The only bodybuilder mentally thicker than Mike was Tom "buy my used trunks" Platz. He was always spouting about being into phylosophy but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate himself.
^^
I actually got to meet Dennis when he already was preaching at Four-Square Church in Malibu, interesting to note- he had REALLY changed... a VERY nice guy!
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Knock, knock!
Who's there?
Not Mentzer!
LMFAO!!
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Tinnerino was jailed in the 1970's for hetro and homo pimping. Bob Birdsong was one of his most prolific whores. I remember Bob coming into the gym one morning when I was living in California and saying that he had a rough night of drinking and whoring the night before. "My mouth feels like the inside of a Parrot's cage" said Bob. "I'm not surprized, you had a "Cockatwo" in it last night grinned Dennis.
Did he go to jail in the 1980's as well ?
No wonder Bob and Dennis are such christians (both ministers) now. Another example of finding religion through dirty guilt.
Mike was not intellegent by the way. He was so stupid he actually couldn't see how obviously psudo his so called intellegence was. Arnold hated the way Mike tried to convince everyone he was in pre med. The only bodybuilder mentally thicker than Mike was Tom "buy my used trunks" Platz. He was always spouting about being into phylosophy but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate himself.
(http://www.joeweider.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/with-Bob-Birdsong.jpg)
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Mike was already going off the deep end by the time that supposed argument started. Arnold did make ammends with Mike at some point, but Arnold was never so dogmatic about his bodybuilding approach, nor did he utilize "Objectivism" and Ayn Rand as his thesis.
The worst thing about Mike's dogmatism was that he didn't actually build his physique using the methodology he so eloquently wrote about.
If anything, Mike severely disliked Arnold at the time Arnold announced his final debut. Mike was in great shape, no doubt, but he didn't even place *second* to Arnold. He placed fifth, and then vowed never to compete again.
Next thing you hear about is Mike running naked through the streets of L.A. working up a good case of Schizophrenia.
Mike was a very articulate writer, but nothing is this world is as objective as he made it seem, especially in bodybuilding, of all things.
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So what's the prob? Most top pros these days have glaring weaknesses ;D
mentzer had the meltdown of meltdowns when arnold not only got to compete, he changed the rules and then he won the competition with glaring weaknesses ie lower body.
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(http://www.joeweider.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/with-Bob-Birdsong.jpg)
Das Cock!
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I used to read all the bodybuilding magazines...from pre 1960 to 2001. Then I stopped buying them. Mike is the only philosopher who was writing regularly in the magazines. If you have studied philosophy you recognize it when you see it. Cohesive, systematic and eloquent. Who else ever wrote like that in bodybuilding magazines? I can't think of anyone.
Ray lived at my place with his girlfriend and child for about a year. He told me plenty of things about Mike. Mike cost Ray plenty when he was around his MuscleMill Gym in Torrance during his crazy period in the 80's. Ray said his dad told him to look after Mike. Yeah, Mike was the favourite. Nice to see that Mike looked after Ray years later. Who knows what happened to Mike? Yes, he abused various mind drugs and that changed his life for many years. He pulled out of that mess and got to writing and making money again only to die shortly after in 2001. Ray died two days later because gone was any hope of getting a kidney transplant. Truth be told Mike's health was shot and he probably couldn't give Ray that kidney. What a terrible end for two intelligent guys who lived the dream via bodybuilding.
I took Ray, Bev and Steve to a few beaches in Sydney when they were all staying at my place.
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Vince you reckon Ray suicided? Seems pretty clear.
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/de990d33ccdebd51b8cfbad6cdcda06b/tumblr_mghax43uCa1s0dzt7o1_500.jpg)
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/de990d33ccdebd51b8cfbad6cdcda06b/tumblr_mghax43uCa1s0dzt7o1_500.jpg)
Very impressive shot!
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I used to read all the bodybuilding magazines...from pre 1960 to 2001. Then I stopped buying them. Mike is the only philosopher who was writing regularly in the magazines. If you have studied philosophy you recognize it when you see it. Cohesive, systematic and eloquent. Who else ever wrote like that in bodybuilding magazines? I can't think of anyone.
Ray lived at my place with his girlfriend and child for about a year. He told me plenty of things about Mike. Mike cost Ray plenty when he was around his MuscleMill Gym in Torrance during his crazy period in the 80's. Ray said his dad told him to look after Mike. Yeah, Mike was the favourite. Nice to see that Mike looked after Ray years later. Who knows what happened to Mike? Yes, he abused various mind drugs and that changed his life for many years. He pulled out of that mess and got to writing and making money again only to die shortly after in 2001. Ray died two days later because gone was any hope of getting a kidney transplant. Truth be told Mike's health was shot and he probably couldn't give Ray that kidney. What a terrible end for two intelligent guys who lived the dream via bodybuilding.
I took Ray, Bev and Steve to a few beaches in Sydney when they were all staying at my place.
What drugs, (none PEDs ) was Mike using from 80's till his passing that you know or heard of?
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What drugs, (none PEDs ) was Mike using from 80's till his passing that you know or heard of?
^^
GOOD QUESTION!!!! VINCE- do you also know why it "cost" Ray plenty to take care of Mike in his "crazy period", did he get into a lot of trouble???
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what a sad pathetic cult bodybuilding is
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I think the combination of amphetamines and steroids was bad. To be fair to Mike, he did research the literature before trying amphetamines, saw the risk factors, but figured since he was focused that it wouldn't be a problem. And apparently it wasn't at first. Til the shit hit the fan. Lose your mom, then your first O soon after- then the next year the biggest contest of your life after killing yourself for 6 months, then your dad dies and your fiancee breaks it off.. Thats a lot in a short time to handle...
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You have to understand that Ray was an intense guy. He just wanted to be left alone. I liked him and we got along just fine. I even stayed at his place in Torrance in 91. I introduced Ray to his wife. Anyway, Ray felt his Dad favoured Mike. So, when Mike was doing crazy things in the street and got in trouble with the law Ray was told to give Mike a job. So Ray let Mike help him at the Muscle Mill. According to Ray, Mike antagonized some of the police who were members there so they quit the gym and Ray lost money. He didn't really want Mike there when he wasn't well but I guess he had to do something. I don't know the particulars of what drugs Mike was using but they were recreational ones that caused him to do bizarre things. Mike also smoked like a chimney and that impacted on his health. Whether Mike still used drugs up to his passing I have no idea. Mike was working his client at Golds Gym in Venice when I was there in 91. Ray got me an appointment to meet Mike and we spoke for an hour or so. Neither of us changed what we believed. I don't think he was impressed with the article I wrote on the 1980 Mr Olympia. I gave it to him and didn't keep a copy because no magazine would publish it. I wonder if he destroyed it?
I can tell you that Ray's girlfriend Kathy said she didn't want to be around Ray when he was training for a competition. He and his training partners would meet and take something to get hyped up for a workout. Plus steroids for growth. Then they would take something afterwards to settle down. The whole scene was an emotional roller coaster according to her and she wanted no part of that scene. Ray told me in 1991 that he got ill when his weight approached 300 pounds the last time he bulked in 88-90. He said many of the other guys got ill, too. I didn't ask what illness but I imagine it had something to do with the kidneys. Ray was on dialysis for the last years of his life. Some say it was a disease he inherited and others blame all the drugs over the years. Painkillers, too. I don't have any details so some of this is pure speculation. He did give me two pills for a migraine headache in 91. I didn't want to go out it was so bad. I asked him what the pill was. He refused to tell me but said it would cure the headache. I reluctantly took the pills. Yep, headache soon evaporated. He had pain in his neck from heavy lifting so needed painkillers. Maybe some guys get addicted to them or rely on them? I don't often get headaches so wouldn't have been looking for that quick fix.
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Thanks Vince, what amazing dramas have happened in the lives of those we held as hero's as teens!!! :o
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/de990d33ccdebd51b8cfbad6cdcda06b/tumblr_mghax43uCa1s0dzt7o1_500.jpg)
roelly winklaar does similar poses
grandma must have been studying mm
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mike was realy hit hard by olympia 1980 . so be it. to me he was maybe mistaken trying to let us beleive that his was the only SCIENTIFIC WAY of training . he like to be an iconoclast a bit according to balik . but ther must be room for different people with different thinking on this world .
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Mike: Arnold, you better stay seated before I knock your teeth out!
Arnold: Mike, you couldn't knock anyone's teeth out with that bulging stomach, and brutal glasses.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1143.jpg)
Samir: Arnold, you're an OWNING machine. Gimme five!
Arnold: Poor Mike. He was too easy.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/Flex2000/IMG_1144.jpg)
haha... very good!!
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roelly winklaar does similar poses
grandma must have been studying mm
;)
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this mr o 1980 haf many judges close to the oak . busek ryan and park . hardly fair judging . arnold presence was enough to let him win .
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Arnold was a soldier was trained a little for hand to hand combat , he would of destroyed Mentzer in a fight
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Arnold was a soldier was trained a little for hand to hand combat , he would of destroyed Mentzer in a fight
Single handedly killed 102 latino gangsters
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Single handedly killed 102 latino gangsters
(http://www.allouttabubblegum.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/commando.jpg)
rofl
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bodybuilding a strange activity . not really sport not really art . a bit both .
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It's interesting looking at head cases of yesteryear realizing today that they were mentally ill from jump street.
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bodybuilding a strange activity . not really gay not really straight. a bit both .
yeah but what u gonna do
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Bodybuildings a strange activity. Not really a sport at all, but really really gay.
True..
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I just finished reading in a magazine about Mentzer that Arnold called Mike about Ray's health and actually provided financial assistance. After that they buried the hatchet. Whether that is true I don't know. It was written by that British guy Peter Mcgough (SP) who was the editor of Flex for a awhile.