Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?

[Moosejay]

Yeah...his treatment of his own health was always perplexing. Weider used to write in articles that Mike had attended medical school, when, in fact, he'd actually taken premed courses at a school in Pa.

[New Hank Wood]

Mike never fooled anyone.  He would bore people to tears with his talk of HIT being the 'only true way to gain quality muscle and strength'.

Arnold knew he was a bullshit artist.

The HIT principles only contributed to major injuries, fatigue and burnout.

Mike went to his grave never admitting that he had actually stole the HIT principles.  What a dog!

And yes, just another meth-head-alcoholic who only brought more unneeded controversary to a much maligned sport!

The guy was a living contradiction and compulsive liar.  

[Moosejay]

Well, I don't know, Hank. I'd imagine Mike Mentzer would have SOME redeeming value.

[The ChemistV2]

Mike never fooled anyone.  He would bore people to tears with his talk of HIT being the 'only true way to gain quality muscle and strength'.

Arnold knew he was a bullshit artist.

The HIT principles only contributed to major injuries, fatigue and burnout.

Mike went to his grave never admitting that he had actually stole the HIT principles.  What a dog!

And yes, just another meth-head-alcoholic who only brought more unneeded controversary to a much maligned sport!

The guy was a living contradiction and compulsive liar.  

That's a little harsh. Pre-1980 Mentzer was a man that was very driven, his mail order courses made him a lot of money, and he had a decent amount of integrity. He had a very impressive physique and he was very friendly and affable with his fans. Don't make him sound like some degenerate.

[Moosejay]

Bob Kennedy wrote that, in one year, Mike's mail order business pulled in 800 thousand dollars gross. And remember, this was in late 70's early 80's dollars....

[Camel Jockey]

I agree that HIT is nonsense.. Only would work if you're a drug user. Doing forced reps and trying to get everything out of 1-3 sets is murder.

The best method is 5x5 heavy compound exercises.

[Van_Bilderass]

I remember that article. Mentzer was pretty bright and supposedly had some medical knowledge, so I wonder why he didn't realize that amphetamine abuse can scramble your neurotransmitters and cause dementia and madness.

Because he learned that Ayn Rand had used amphetamines for many years, apparently with no ill effects. He probably smoked due to Rand too. That's my theory LOL. In Atlas Shrugged there's the line,

"I like to think of fire held in a man's hand.  Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips.  I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking.  I wonder what great things have come from such hours.  When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind--and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression."

[dr.chimps]

That's a little harsh. Pre-1980 Mentzer was a man that was very driven, his mail order courses made him a lot of money, and he had a decent amount of integrity. He had a very impressive physique and he was very friendly and affable with his fans. Don't make him sound like some degenerate.

Years back, I had a buddy (who absolutely idolized Mentzer) who went to a seminar that Mentzer was guesting at up here in Canada. He said Mentzer's behaviour was very 'odd' and he thought he was drunk; he used the word 'psychosis' to describe him, I remember. Poor guy, meets his hero and has the rug taken out from under him. He honestly looked like a kid who had been told that there was no Santa Claus. 

[Vince B]

Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.

Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.

The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.

When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.

Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.

[Camel Jockey]

Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.

Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.

The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.

When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.

Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.

Interesting to hear..

[The ChemistV2]

Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.

Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.

The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.

When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.

Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.

That was very insightful. Thanks Vince.

[Moosejay]

Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.

Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.

The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.

When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.

Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.

Vince:

Did YOU feel that Mike was not even close to winning that day?

[The ChemistV2]

Vince:

Did YOU feel that Mike was not even close to winning that day?

From the photos I've seen, he cetainly looked better than 5th. But photos don't always tell the whole story. There is intangible things that sound almost metaphysical, like how you project yourself on stage. Zane was a master of that. He could literally "hypnotize" the judges into seeing what he wanted them too. Maybe Mentzer didn't project himself with total confidence that day. It may sound strange, but it can make a difference.

[Moosejay]

Yeah, I always knew Zane was big on the mind and the powers of projection. And I also had MM placing higher than he did. I recall the following reactions to placings:

2) Dickerson: "Oh no!"
3) Zane:Smashed his trophy in the parking lot,"I thought Arnold was my friend."
4) Coe: Roared as he kicked at backstage tables and chairs:"Is there no justice?"
5) Mentzer:"I just blew a whole year's worth of training for a shit decision like that...I am through...bb just lost what could have been their best spokesman..."
1) Arnold: "They can all bitch and moan...but years from now, people will still say:Arnold, 7-times Mr. Olympis...and no one will ever beat that..."

[The ChemistV2]

Yeah, I always knew Zane was big on the mind and the powers of projection. And I also had MM placing higher than he did. I recall the following reactions to placings:

2) Dickerson: "Oh no!"
3) Zane:Smashed his trophy in the parking lot,"I thought Arnold was my friend."
4) Coe: Roared as he kicked at backstage tables and chairs:"Is there no justice?"
5) Mentzer:"I just blew a whole year's worth of training for a shit decision like that...I am through...bb just lost what could have been their best spokesman..."
1) Arnold: "They can all bitch and moan...but years from now, people will still say:Arnold, 7-times Mr. Olympis...and no one will ever beat that..."

Wow, you have a great memory. I remeber Mentzer's statement and Arnold's, but I forgot the others. Guess Ronnie and Lee proved Arnie wrong.

[bigdumbbell]

Mike was one of the few philosophers in bodybuilding. He had a logical mind and was able to express his thoughts in a coherent manner. There is no doubt he and Ray believed in brief but brutally hard training. That both used drugs cannot be denied. Arnold is not his equal re intelligence but that has never stopped Arnold from achieving everything he wanted.

Mike embraced the ideas of Ayn Rand. As a philosophy student I was surprised that anyone would actually accept those ideas. She portrayed men and women as superhumans and heroic. If you had the intelligence you should be able to distill the right theory about any phenomenon. When you can comprehend that phenomenon you should be able to control it. Thus, Mike believed he had the right hypertrophy theory and method and by implementing it via himself he should be able to ascend to the highest level in physique. This was guaranteed by nature or so he thought.

The reality was probably quite offensive to Mike as he was beaten by an 'inferior' guy who had little idea about the theory of hypertrophy. Mike always boasted about getting a perfect score in the Mr Universe contest and sort of implied this gave him a perfect physique. That did not follow. There is more to winning the Olympia that showing up with the best physique. You have to sell yourself and on that Arnold prepared well because he was friends or mates with most of the IFBB judges. Weider had appointed vice-presidents and they often judged the Olympia. It was an easy matter for Arnold to befriend those judges by doing shows and seminars for them. Arnold wrote that he befriends only those who can benefit him or his career and I guess he was second to none at this agenda.

When Mike lost the Mr Olympia he was devastated and the whole universe was crazy. The judges were mates of Arnold and the whole scene was a sham. Mike was right about that stuff so he did the logical thing and walked away from ever competing again. To many this seemed like sour grapes. To Mike it was a philosophical duty to disassociate himself from corruption. We all wonder what would have happened had he continued to compete. Perhaps we would have won several times and been highly successful and perhaps still alive today. We will never know.

Those who were at the Olympia saw that Mike was not close to winning the contest in 1980. I did take this photo of Mike and Ironman published it on the cover. He looks great here and it is one of the reasons many feel Mike was cheated that day.

thanks for your contributions to this forum

[Mark1]

Mike: Arnold, you better stay seated before I knock your teeth out!
Arnold: Mike, you couldn't knock anyone's teeth out with that bulging stomach, and brutal glasses.



Samir: Arnold, you're an OWNING machine. Gimme five!
Arnold: Poor Mike. He was too easy.

Now thats funny   

[Pollux]

Arnold's reaction upon hearing Mike Mentzer's passing... 

[GoneAway]

pollux, who is that with arnold? joe gold?

[Pollux]

pollux, who is that with arnold? joe gold?

Yes, it is. 

[dj181]

Mike is a plagiarist! 

He stole the principles of High Intensity Training (H.I.T) and claimed them as his own work!

i think mike claimed that he took HIT to it's last and final application, basically by downregulating volume and frequency. and i don't think he stole the principals of HIT coz he acknowledged Arthur Jones many times

[Moosejay]

Wow, you have a great memory. I remeber Mentzer's statement and Arnold's, but I forgot the others. Guess Ronnie and Lee proved Arnie wrong.

Indeed they did, Chem.

[Moosejay]

Now thats funny   

Arnold slapping five with Samir ocurred prior to his 'confrontation' with Mentzer. Arnold had to appear contrite after "Ben has talked to me and told me something sensical, so I withdraw my request for separate weight classes"-he said something to that effect.

[Moosejay]

Arnold's reaction upon hearing Mike Mentzer's passing... 

Yes, that's Joe Gold...and that is NOT their reaction to MM's passing.

[Moosejay]

After the 80 Olympia, I attended seminars given by Coe, Tinnerino, Szkalak, and Lance Dreher that were held at my Gym in North Haven, CT (Walczak gave one, too).

At least both Coe and Tinnerino said they would not compete in the 81 O because Franco was slated to win it-they were right.

I think Tinnerino may have competed anyway...Coe, Zane and some other top guys did not. Don't recall what Dreher said, But Szkalak was already doing WABBA stuff anyhow by then.