Author Topic: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?  (Read 40471 times)

CoolDuck

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2008, 02:15:02 AM »
The philosophy of science suggests that most theories are false. When a theory approximates the truth then that is progress. Mike was probably wrong about hypertrophy but he was consistent in what he wrote and that is still an impressive treatise.

If Mentzer was a philosopher, he was not very good in the field of philosophy of science. Scientific evidence is fallible and probabilistic as it is founded on empirical methods and induction. Mentzer seemed to believe that he by use of deductive logic somehow could lift himself (and his theories) up by his bootstraps. I actually found it painful to read his Flex column.

CD

dr.chimps

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2008, 03:35:36 AM »
The philosophy of science suggests that most theories are false. When a theory approximates the truth then that is progress. Mike was probably wrong about hypertrophy but he was consistent in what he wrote and that is still an impressive treatise.

I think just about everyone underestimated Arnold's intelligence. If you judge a person by what he has achieved then Arnold's record is outstanding when you consider he succeeded in a foreign country. I mean, how lucky was he to portray a machine in those science fiction movies? His accent helped him because he seemed foreign. The Terminator from the future should have had flawless English but there you are, a glitch, but believable on the screen.

I never felt Arnold was that smart and perhaps neither did Mike. Arnold exceeded us both by a wide margin when it comes to motivation and determination. Most people give up but not guys like Arnold. They use people and find a way to succeed when completely against the odds. That take an exceptional person to do that.

This admiration should be tempered by the fact that Arnold almost certainly achieved what he has by using and trampling other people. I think you'll find that such callous and offhand behaviour in regards to others is the execption, not the norm.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2008, 06:17:09 AM »
Because Arnold felt above him. It was a condescending form of treatment on Arnold's behalf.

MY impression is that he knew he was acting in a poor-sport manner, and he was ashamed to look at Mentzer. Just my impression.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2008, 06:21:21 AM »
This admiration should be tempered by the fact that Arnold almost certainly achieved what he has by using and trampling other people. I think you'll find that such callous and offhand behaviour in regards to others is the execption, not the norm.

I agree that Arnold has trampled many, many people on his way to the top. But I feel that this behavior is prevalent in many who have risen to such heights. Maybe not to A's degree, however.

dr.chimps

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2008, 07:05:41 AM »
I agree that Arnold has trampled many, many people on his way to the top. But I feel that this behavior is prevalent in many who have risen to such heights. Maybe not to A's degree, however.
Agree. Such people have many of the criteria that the DSM-IV refers to as a psychopathic personality. I was just countering Vince's Pollyanna view of Arnold is all.  :)

Vince B

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2008, 07:10:17 AM »
For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.

The Master

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2008, 07:10:54 AM »
For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.

Arnold = smarter than you.  :-*

dr.chimps

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2008, 07:22:27 AM »
For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.
That a lowly Austrian corporal almost brought the world to ruin is also unthinkable. You decide if credit is due. ;)

JimmyThomson

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2008, 07:46:12 AM »
BEfore you knock another man's intelligence, run a spell check, because almost every other word of your's is spelled incorrectly.

You - intellegent
Proper - intelligent
You - psudo
Proper - pseudo
you - phylosophy
Proper - philosophy



Only little girls in spelling contests and poofy wee fairies care about spelling.
It has nothing to do with intelligence as plenty of autistic and Downs people are exceptional spellers.
I am a numbers man, CA (CPA in USA) to trade.   








Master of the Masters.

kiwiol

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2008, 07:54:50 AM »

It is obvious to me that the writings of Mike Mentzer are philosophical discourses. He was systematic and had a structure and cohesion that is the hallmark of philosophy. His theory may be mistaken but his work stands out as one of the few hypertrophy theories ever. Besides that he linked hypertrophy theory to other philosophy. I don't support objectivism but Mike did and I always was amazed to read such discourse in a bodybuilding magazine.

First of all it's not his theory - he called it his own even though it was all devised by Arthur Jones, who being the true genius here probably came up with it because he wanted to spin a new marketing angle when he introduced his line of machines viz. Nautilus. Nothing like a new, exciting line of machines with an unprecedented design that promises to deliver the same, if not better results with just 1 set rather than the usual 3 or more sets that was the norm those days.

The fact that Mike M was a good writer doesn't mean he was a Philosopher. He didn't really come up with a new or original metaphysical statement or anything. He just injected a lot of philosophy (that was Ayn Rand's) in his writings. If that makes him a philosopher, then anyone who quotes a philosopher automatically becomes one.


It is easy to be mistaken or partly mistaken when it comes to theories about anything that is complex. Mike always supported his ideas with anecdotal reports about his clients who all made progress according to him. I don't recall that there has ever been a definitive debate about hypertrophy theory. All that I have seen are various people championing one theory or another. I am not aware that anyone has ever written a doctoral thesis on human maximum muscular hypertrophy. There literally are no experts out there on this subject but many claim that they know all about it. /color]

Again, he didn't really mention any specific examples - he just said that his clients improved in terms of their shape, strength etc which just about every personal trainer can do. His theory was false and a lot of his conclusions were non-sequitors. To give you an example, he frequently said that hitting a muscle is the same as hitting dynamite with a hammer - you can keep hitting it mildly and it would never go off. But if you hit it hard enough once, it will and the same therefore, goes for inducing growth through hypertrophy.

Going by that example, then why get the person to do a single set to failure? Why not just get him to do his 1 rep max and say that he went to failure, therefore the workout is over and that's all he needs to do? There isn't really much to hypertrophy - you stimulate growth through progressive overload and if you do everything else right (diet, lifestyle etc), you are going to see some change, regardless of whether you work out at 70% or 80% of your capacity or whatever. Of course, the actual solution is not so simplistic, but that's the general idea on which the different theories are based upon.



In my opinion, based on what he wrote, I would credit Mike with sufficient intelligence to have done a medical degree. I wonder if Arnold could have done one? Apparently he went to some college in LA but I don't know the particulars but it was not one of the esteemed universities. Mike never accepted Arnold as his intellectual peer and rightly so.


I'd say Arnold is the (way more) intelligent one of the two. If Arnold put his mind to doing what Mike Mentzer was i.e. talking about theories and such, I'm sure he'd have been equally successful in his own way, even though his linguistic skills may not be on par with Mentzer's. Arnold did something that's a lot harder and way more rarer - he accomplished in reality what Mike Mentzer could never do but only talk about. And let's not forget how much drive he must have had to overcome the frequent handicap of not being a local - something that Mike never had to worry about. There is no comparison between Arnold and Mike.

As to Arnold not being ethical all the time about everything  - you can't go to the top without ruffling a few feathers on the way ;)

dj181

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2008, 10:08:46 AM »
Again, he didn't really mention any specific examples - he just said that his clients improved in terms of their shape, strength etc which just about every personal trainer can do. His theory was false and a lot of his conclusions were non-sequitors. To give you an example, he frequently said that hitting a muscle is the same as hitting dynamite with a hammer - you can keep hitting it mildly and it would never go off. But if you hit it hard enough once, it will and the same therefore, goes for inducing growth through hypertrophy.

Going by that example, then why get the person to do a single set to failure? Why not just get him to do his 1 rep max and say that he went to failure, therefore the workout is over and that's all he needs to do? There isn't really much to hypertrophy - you stimulate growth through progressive overload and if you do everything else right (diet, lifestyle etc), you are going to see some change, regardless of whether you work out at 70% or 80% of your capacity or whatever. Of course, the actual solution is not such so simplistic, but that's the general idea on which the different theories are based upon.
it seems to me that the key tenant of HIT is intensity of effort, and while i agree that instensity of effort is a key aspect of hypertrophy, i think that the very baseline of hypertrophy is "progressive overload" i'm curious, what's you take on this?

Pollux

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2008, 10:44:06 AM »
For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.

Can you give him credit for being THE BEST bodybuilder in 1980 via the Mr. Olympia?  ;D

kimo

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2008, 11:08:02 AM »
i think arnold could hardly stand to be criticised  as the king of bodybuilders.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2008, 11:16:33 AM »
Agree. Such people have many of the criteria that the DSM-IV refers to as a psychopathic personality. I was just countering Vince's Pollyanna view of Arnold is all.  :)

Indeed.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2008, 11:17:33 AM »
For a musclehead who can't speak English properly to be both a Hollywood star and governor of California is unthinkable. Yet Arnold achieved this so I give him credit for that.

Most definitely. Often forgotten is the fact that along with all the other obstcles that comes with such success, he had to learn our language.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2008, 11:18:31 AM »
That a lowly Austrian corporal almost brought the world to ruin is also unthinkable. You decide if credit is due. ;)

Excellent point.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2008, 11:21:29 AM »
Can you give him credit for being THE BEST bodybuilder in 1980 via the Mr. Olympia?  ;D

My opinion is that I can't. :-\

MikeThaMachine

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2008, 11:23:02 AM »
I could never get over how Arnold could not make eye contact with Mentzer. Scared? I have read here by a few that Arnold had an aversion to fighting....


Unless fighting is part of your profession it's not worth it.
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Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2008, 11:29:38 AM »

Unless fighting is part of your profession it's not worth it.

haha...yes, very true.

Pollux

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #119 on: March 31, 2008, 11:42:28 AM »
My opinion is that I can't. :-\

In your opinion, what place would you have given Arnold?

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #120 on: March 31, 2008, 11:50:57 AM »
Well, Pollux, that is a tough one. I hate to penalize Arnold, he did look great. Its just that, like many, I remember him from 75 and 74, when he was incomparable. Those who could have won as well as Arnold and I would not have complained were, I felt, Zane, Coe, Mentzer, even Roger Walker looked great.

In all due respect, I never was enamored with Dickerson's physique. Can't see what the judges saw....

I also realize that this was kind of a non-answer to your question. Alas....

Pollux

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #121 on: March 31, 2008, 12:47:16 PM »
Well, Pollux, that is a tough one. I hate to penalize Arnold, he did look great. Its just that, like many, I remember him from 75 and 74, when he was incomparable. Those who could have won as well as Arnold and I would not have complained were, I felt, Zane, Coe, Mentzer, even Roger Walker looked great.

In all due respect, I never was enamored with Dickerson's physique. Can't see what the judges saw....

I also realize that this was kind of a non-answer to your question. Alas....

Really?!  :o

Wow. I'm not a fan of Chris Dickerson - at all. But if anyone could've beaten Arnold I thought it was him!

I think some people don't see Arnold as the 1980 Mr. Olympia winner because they seem to compare Arnold to his former self, if you will, instead of those he went up against.

Moosejay

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #122 on: March 31, 2008, 12:50:20 PM »
Yes, Pollux. I agree with your thoughts on Arnold. I do put him in the group of Coe, Zane and Mentzer as any of them being a worthy winner. Controversy will always abound, anyhow!

kimo

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #123 on: October 09, 2008, 03:08:47 PM »
i think scwarzenegger suffered from megalomania.he could not stand being criticised. he had to be worshipped.

kimo

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Re: Did Arnold really loathe Mentzer?
« Reply #124 on: March 04, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »
for a german to speak english is not the most diificult thing in the world . john fair article wrote a great article on mr o 1980 in IGH FILES .