Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: boonstack on September 19, 2008, 08:16:49 PM
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besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.
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besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.
Supplement IMO add 5 pounds for thousand of dollars worth of supplements from Muscletech when Dianabol at 50 mg a day will add 25 pounds of mass on a dedicated natural in 2 weeks.
Am i missing something.
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um.. i think i get what your saying?
supplements = bullshit waste of money
steroids = only way to go. I agree with steroids part as i know this is a fact ;)
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I think tribulus works, not amazingly but never the less.
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No! They are a total waste of money. If you want to get big naturally, eat food. If you want to get big and dont care about being natural, take drugs and eat food. Supplements are a joke.
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some of the post ban 3rd (4rth?) gen pro-hormones show some promise, but may not be worth the price.
Had some luck with 11-oxo a year ago, not sure if it's still on the market (and definitely way too expensive)
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The way I look at it is at least with steroids you don't have to wonder if they are going to work.
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um.. i think i get what your saying?
supplements = bullshit waste of money
steroids = only way to go. I agree with steroids part as i know this is a fact ;)
That's exactly how it is. In my experience, even Creatine has no or insignificant impact. The only thing that makes sense is using protein powder out of convenience. It's an outright lie of the supplement industrie that anything other than hormones, anabolic steroids, or pro-hormones will advance you in bodybuilding. If you believe in that lie, try doing the exact same thing two times in a row, one time with a certain supplement and next time without.
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i used a lot of that garbage and i advise to everyone to just stick to food whey and simple vits. genetics is all.
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i used a lot of that garbage and i advise to everyone to just stick to food whey and simple vits. genetics is all.
Me too. For the current diet I even ditched the multi-vits. I'm pretty sure that eating enough meat, fruits and veggies provides all nutrients in a much healthier form.
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The mighty Mars layin' some smackdown on the queers on here
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i have never noticed any difference on and off creatine. used it for periods or over 4 months and when i went off i noticed zero difference in strength.
im using whey ofcourse. but its mostly cause im to lazy to cook somethimes if i could i would eat real food all the time. multi vitamin/ mineral supplement so i know im getting all that crap in..
bought bcaa and eaa now. maybe a waste of money..
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The mighty Mars layin' some smackdown on the queers on here
hows it going bro?
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supplements are a scam.
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Never have and never will use any of that shit.
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are you guys trying to suggest that the scientific studies of Anator P70®™ by Muscle Tech®™ⓒ shown to increase muscle mass and strength gains by 12,066% are bullshit?
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hows it going bro?
Pretty good man, just working a lot lately, but wanted to drop in and see how things were going
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Pretty good man, just working on these gimmicks, but wanted to drop in and see how things were going
fixed. ;D
Shit dude I thought you died..
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The big problem is that supplement compagny make big comercial with beautiful girl and big guy and when young people look that they think that's gonna work for them too.
Even in all magasin when they said u have to eat a huge amount of protein that's tottaly wrong but they tell u that cause they know u ll have to take supplement to get that huge amount of protein.
Just eat right and u ll grow.
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Whey or other protein shakes must be okay, IF they really contain that 20-30g protein/serving. It's concentrated food, nothing more, so must be as good as meat or better. My problem is with the "IF". Sometimes I feel, it's just flavours, stabilisers, sugars, an there is no supermatrix hydrofiltered ion exchanged denaturated protein in it... ::)
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Just protein shakes really
No multivitamens, creatine, NO etc etc
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I just take a multivitamin to make up for the fact that I don't eat many green vegetables in my diet. I also take zinc and Omega 3,6 and 9 capsules. I don't take anything else and haven't used creatine in well over five years. I tried glutamine a few years back but it did absolutely nothing for me.
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The funniest thing is that the biggest pusher of BS products is "no bull" radio. You can almost hear the embarrassment in Dave's voice when he has to sort of affirm John's rants about how "awesome" he feels and how much better he "recuperates" on certain supps.
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I take whey, a multi vit and some fish oil and glucosamine. Looking at getting some ZMA too. Thats it though.
Most people my age who are into lifting/bb'ing take WAY more shit than i do...
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buy supplements.
take supplements.
support the sport.
ronnie needs a new car. pay for that car. buy BSN.
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sanca
neukt
hond.
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i take a multivitamin and glucosamine for my joints
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Maybe it's just me, but I use supplements and I think some stuff works fuckin great: any creatine I've ever tried put size and strength on me, I'm currently using Celltech and you guys may laugh but this works. I've also tried nitic oxide supplements and that stuff also works wonders for me (vascularity and pumps) right now I'm using Gaspari's plasmajet and the shit is insane. I've also tried Milos's supplements and that shit worked great for me too (a little pricey though for such a small supply). Other then that I take whey isolate and l-glutamine.
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Maybe it's just me, but I use supplements and I think some stuff works fuckin great: any creatine I've ever tried put size and strength on me, I'm currently using Celltech and you guys may laugh but this works. I've also tried nitic oxide supplements and that stuff also works wonders for me (vascularity and pumps) right now I'm using Gaspari's plasmajet and the shit is insane. I've also tried Milos's supplements and that shit worked great for me too (a little pricey though for such a small supply). Other then that I take whey isolate and l-glutamine.
god bless you for supporting the sport
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god bless you for supporting the sport
Lol...thanks man!
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Maybe it's just me, but I use supplements and I think some stuff works fuckin great: any creatine I've ever tried put size and strength on me, I'm currently using Celltech and you guys may laugh but this works. I've also tried nitic oxide supplements and that stuff also works wonders for me (vascularity and pumps) right now I'm using Gaspari's plasmajet and the shit is insane. I've also tried Milos's supplements and that shit worked great for me too (a little pricey though for such a small supply). Other then that I take whey isolate and l-glutamine.
Yup. Lots of supplements work great.
All of you doubters should go to www.bodybuilding.com and order a bunch of free samples. heres a list of free samples if ound in about 5 minutes time.... =
(1) MuscleTech Gakic Hardcore, Free Sample!
(1) Nutrex Lipo 6x, Free Sample!
(1) Trionix Endorphix, Free Sample!
(1) Syntrax Fyre, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs Green MAGnitude, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs REDuction, Free Sample!
(1) Gaspari Nutrition SuperPump250, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs Purple Wraath, Free Sample!
Try them out and see if they work. Its free, why not?
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Supplements are called "supplements" coz they are only supplemental to real food .but nothing beats the real thing... Steak or $ on supps ??? hmmm I'll take the fulfilling food instead..Learn more bout nutrition and then you'll see y it's best to just concentrate on your diet coupled with a consistent training regimen
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sanca
neukt
hond.
hahahah, die langharige tekkel?
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The only thing you need is a good multivitamin and maybe a good protein powder...
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Who's Sanca ???
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Creatine, Glutamine, Whey, Vitamins+Minerals, Fishoil; That's what I'm takin' year round.
If it works?? Who knows......lol :-\
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The only thing you need is a good multivitamin and maybe a good protein powder...
to be honest I work in the supplement industry im gonna let you guys on an insider secret, "you dont need anything not even multi vitamins" the extra stuff you guys take that think that work is what supplements keep turning the wheel they let you think you need it to get big, but nothing actually works. To be honest I can train someone with just food with 3 meals a day and get him to be 200lbs,,10% BF the lowest possible at 5'10" he will be very large more than normal with 17inch arms lean. I know one nitric oxide so called supplement I support,,all they put in there is 2000mg of vitamin C as main ingredient it works wonders to make people think they are gettting a super pump when in reality its in their head they are working out harder than before.
So take it from other folks dont need supplements at all,,you will see the results if you just go in the gym with extra energy like caffeeine,, and get good result. you cant tell guys though,,,,that you need dont need supplements cause its in head all the time to take it there are guys over at bbing.com who buy 500 dollars/month,,supplements expecting 20lbs of raw muscle,,,I,,,know guys who buy steroid stacks less than that get more Real Gains not water gain and fat,,,,
Ill even ask resident expert GH15 and you watch he respond,,,
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Here is the deal...Anyone who is really for them, has a hand in them or is a fucking douchebag who can't get off the scale...
What you need to do is take a good look at the guy of the 70's and 80's and ask yourself, what did these guys do? Now it doesn't mean that there isn't something out there that can't help you at all but i will also add this, None of this shit is regulated...Johnny high step shouldn't be able to make his own protein mix and sell it to anyone without his shit being checked out as being safe...Well that isn't happening...And there is no doubt in my mind that organs are going to be paying the price for it...
So i say, eat regular food...And if your going to do some gear, do 2 drugs tops at any given time...Chance are you have genetics 10 times worse then Palumbo and Kamali and these two dudes are pretty fucking bad...
Think Arnold and his gang and all of the BS that is being pushed out there will make more sense to you...
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hahahah, die langharige tekkel?
lol, haters. ;D
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to be honest I work in the supplement industry im gonna let you guys on an insider secret, "you dont need anything not even multi vitamins" the extra stuff you guys take that think that work is what supplements keep turning the wheel they let you think you need it to get big, but nothing actually works. To be honest I can train someone with just food with 3 meals a day and get him to be 200lbs,,10% BF the lowest possible at 5'10" he will be very large more than normal with 17inch arms lean. I know one nitric oxide so called supplement I support,,all they put in there is 2000mg of vitamin C as main ingredient it works wonders to make people think they are gettting a super pump when in reality its in their head they are working out harder than before.
So take it from other folks dont need supplements at all,,you will see the results if you just go in the gym with extra energy like caffeeine,, and get good result. you cant tell guys though,,,,that you need dont need supplements cause its in head all the time to take it there are guys over at bbing.com who buy 500 dollars/month,,supplements expecting 20lbs of raw muscle,,,I,,,know guys who buy steroid stacks less than that get more Real Gains not water gain and fat,,,,
Ill even ask resident expert GH15 and you watch he respond,,,
The truth has spoken... The problem however is most people that are really into the gym need to really bang there head against the wall and straighten the fuck up to what life is all about...We all can be fooled or talked into what we should be eating or wearing or doing etc...And most of the time, its BS...The trick is to be on the side of who is telling us what to do...
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i take a multivitamin thats it, i dont even take a protein drink/amino tabs.
I train at home most of the week (apart from the 1 day i go to the gym for legs)
so i can easily get 8oz of chicken breast and some white rice cooked on time for when i finish working out.
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lol, haters. ;D
hhaa ben jij sanca?
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Tuurlijk niet. ;D
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besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.
Yer just pissin' your cash down the crapper.dat everytime you buy into supplemental crap. These supplement companies should be fined for selling shoddy products. At least anabolics do what they friggin' say and IMO should be legal with .doc's script for ageing old skoolers like myself.
Better to eat 3 meals a day, maybe a VAM pill, perhaps some whey .... which is just expensive powdered milk anyways.
Chowdown!
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Tuurlijk niet. ;D
ok "big" t haha.
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besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.
that's it....you have to load up on all sorts of shit - creatine, whey, trib, arginine, whatever.....all for a measly 10% edge...at $200 a week hit to your wallet, it aint worth it
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that's it....you have to load up on all sorts of shit - creatine, whey, trib, arginine, whatever.....all for a measly 10% edge...at $200 a week hit to your wallet, it aint worth it
Of course it's worth it. It supports BODYBUILDING you selfish prick
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Of course it's worth it. It supports BODYBUILDING you selfish prick
If rat poison is necessary so that Mr. Olympia gets a Hummer, I would maybe buy but still not guzzle.
Let's just all buy a little horny goat weed and ritually burn it.
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If rat poison is necessary so that Mr. Olympia gets a Hummer, I would maybe buy but still not guzzle.
Let's just all buy a little horny goat weed and ritually burn it.
Together we can buy Ronnie another car. Let's not hesitate here
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If you really want to support bodybuilding, take your supplement money and buy a ticket to an IFBB show. That's direct support. The supplement companies will still do very well, there's millions of gullible consumers available to them who could care less about contest bodybuilding.
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Nitric oxcide, never train without it.
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I'VE EXPERIMENTED WITH SUPPLEMENTS ON AND OFF SINCE I WAS 18. I HAVE YET TO FIND ONE THAT REALLY AND TRUELY WORKS ALL THAT WELL. YES, SOME HAVE DONE THEIR JOB FOR A SHORT TIME, BUT I HAVE ALSO DUMPED ALOT OF $ INTO SOME TOTALLY WORTHLESS ONES! I DO READ ALOT, AND MOST OF THE RTHINGS I READ ALL AGREE THAT THE TOP SUPPLEMENTS ARE CREATINE, GLUTAMINE, A GOOD MULTI-VITAMIN, AND PROTEIN POWDER. I DON'T USE CREATINE ANYMORE.
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first time i did creatine a few years back i gained 13 pounds in bout 6 weeks and my bodyfat stayed to same
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ok "big" t haha.
"hoe wil je me impressen dan? slingers om je brutal 60kg frame hangen en "tough" in de camera kijken? haha."
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"hoe wil je me impressen dan? slingers om je brutal 60kg frame hangen en "tough" in de camera kijken? haha."
hahaha het mars karakter op dutchbb heeft heel wat mensen daar op hoge bloeddruk gejaagd.
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idd... internet, serious buisness. ;D
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Ze hebben zich nooit goed weten te herstellen haha.
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hahaha het schijnt dat mr j nog steeds snachts wakker schrikt
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ok eric r haha.
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Together we can buy Ronnie another car. Let's not hesitate here
he almost died for us with his intake of GH, test, insulin, deca, tren, etc,,,,get it right.
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support the sport
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support the sport
QFT........
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I just bought a bunch of supplements and Ill have Ronnie sign the jar for me 8)
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I think the only thing worth using is the stuff called "Hollywood Diet" or something...Its like 20 bucks for a gadorade style bottle...You see there ads all over the place...
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Vitamin C - yes i think it helps
Multi - probably more extra insurance
Iron - i have had low levels b4 from training a lot taking one tab a day made a huge difference to my energy levels (only really worked cause the levels were low)
Zinc - insurance again
Protein Powder is rubbish to me, i tried swapping it with real foods and i could tell it was not the same
Most people want to believe they will work
Most will eat more and train harder and not miss sessions when they take supplements because 'i am taking supplements i better make the most out of them!' when it is the extra work that does it
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Since finding steroids is next to impossible now, supplements is all that is readily available.
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HC hardcore for energy, and a liquid multivitamin here.
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Yup. Lots of supplements work great.
All of you doubters should go to www.bodybuilding.com and order a bunch of free samples. heres a list of free samples if ound in about 5 minutes time.... =
(1) MuscleTech Gakic Hardcore, Free Sample!
(1) Nutrex Lipo 6x, Free Sample!
(1) Trionix Endorphix, Free Sample!
(1) Syntrax Fyre, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs Green MAGnitude, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs REDuction, Free Sample!
(1) Gaspari Nutrition SuperPump250, Free Sample!
(1) Controlled Labs Purple Wraath, Free Sample!
Try them out and see if they work. Its free, why not?
hahaha, ok. I am sure a 10 g sample from any of these will make wonder and I will see if they work.
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I don't see where my training would be without them as do a few here..
I've been taking Atlarge Nutrition's Results creatine supplement, Nitrean protien blend, and Maximus for meal replacements along with ETS for DOMS and couldn't be happier. Definately helps keep recovery up there that's for damn sure.. especially when you're not on the sauce! ;D
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I must confess that a teenaged Thin Lizzy spent some of his after-school job money on supps, mainly protein power. Unless I mistook "Excessive Farting" for muscle growth, I saw absolutely no results.
Twenty five years later, my opinion is the same as JocktheGlide's. You need no supps, of any kind, at all. They are a complete waste of money.
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dont forget to buy the nitric oxide with 2000mg of vitamin C
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I only use whey, multi-vitamin and L-Arganine.
I used to love the n-xide products, but that's just TOO much $$$. I found that 3g of Arganine works just as well if you want the crazy pump and is FAR cheaper.
Just my $.02.
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Fish oil from the bottle. Straight, no chaser.
Cooked egg white shakes and tuna shakes. It's food, but not in the traditional sense.
Some protein powders cost as much as $160 for 3.75 lbs in Aus, so that's a "no fuckin' way" right there.
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Fish oil from the bottle. Straight, no chaser.
Cooked egg white shakes and tuna shakes. It's food, but not in the traditional sense.
Some protein powders cost as much as $160 for 3.75 lbs in Aus, so that's a "no fuckin' way" right there.
oh brother. ::)
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Fish oil from the bottle. Straight, no chaser.
Cooked egg white shakes and tuna shakes. It's food, but not in the traditional sense.
Some protein powders cost as much as $160 for 3.75 lbs in Aus, so that's a "no fuckin' way" right there.
Damn, that must take alot of commitment to eat like that. Do you incorporate cheat meals, into your diet? And if so, what do you usually eat?
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This guy says he takes a multi and drinks some water every day...
(http://www.healthbolt.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/bodybuilder.jpg)
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oh brother. ::)
das jus how I roll.
Pretty rare with the shakes really, but I promised my self I'd push protein (from food, animal sources only) up to 200g+ every day without fail for a couple months to see the effect, so it'll probably become a regular thing soon by way of experiment. Worst thing that can happen is I'll gain both fat and muscle.
Damn, that must take alot of commitment to eat like that. Do you incorporate cheat meals, into your diet? And if so, what do you usually eat?
Don't get the wrong idea. I've only been having a shake after work if the day's diet was especially crap. I'm not excessive with carb or fat intake, but I eat pastas, pancakes (sometimes with the low carb fake maple syrup, sometimes with the real 40g/serve real one) bread, potatoes, rice, cous cous, etc. My protein sources are sometimes too expensive because I hate crap cuts of meat and I like fish (very expensive here).
Egg whites and canned tuna are just cheap sources, so I reach for them sometimes. I'll make them a daily thing when I find the balls to start tracking and ensuring my protein intake of 200g+ daily. I still enjoy beer, wine, ice cream, big macs, etc, but in moderation.
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That's cool, I was getting the impression that you were just eating that stuff all the time. No way could I do that, I gotta have my cold beer now and then!
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That's cool, I was getting the impression that you were just eating that stuff all the time. No way could I do that, I gotta have my cold beer now and then!
Hell no. That just what I use to supplement a pretty normal, but mostly healthy, diet.
I get really strict every now and then and get the carbs down to 100-150g if I'm feeling soft, but I don't usually pig out enough (and with enough frequency) to justify a hard cutting diet. A cut usually follows on the heels of a "clean bulk" gone wrong. It's fun setting PRs tho, and I always end up deluding myself that I'm just holding some water... until one day... there's no mistaking it's time to diet down. :(
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i think i'm one of the few at my gym that doesn't buy a $5 protein shake at the end of my workout
E
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i think i'm one of the few at my gym that doesn't buy a $5 protein shake at the end of my workout
E
You think a post workout shake is a total waste of time? I will grab one from time to time if I am not going straight home.
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You think a post workout shake is a total waste of time? I will grab one from time to time if I am not going straight home.
why spend $5 on a shake when you can spend 50 cents on a can of tuna?
and no you do not need protein immediately after your workout ::)
E
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why spend $5 on a shake when you can spend 50 cents on a can of tuna?
and no you do not need protein immediately after your workout ::)
E
Thanks for the info, congrats on approaching 10k posts.
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Thanks for the info, congrats on approaching 10k posts.
you're welcome
10 k posts isn't too bad for 4 years 8)
E
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supps are almost as gay as getting your protein straight from the tap.
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U don't need all that protein for build muscle. All the magazin tell u that u need a lof of protein they are just doing their buisness but trust me u don't need all that.
Just eat 4 meal or more a day and try to get all clean food but sometimes it's good to cheat to clear your mind.
Try to eat one meal 1h after your workout.
Keep train hard
;)
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Me too. For the current diet I even ditched the multi-vits. I'm pretty sure that eating enough meat, fruits and veggies provides all nutrients in a much healthier form.
Not really.........Remember that it would take 4 apples today to have the equivalent nutrients of 1 apple in the 1800's.
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(http://www.plundered.net/images/jailbait.jpg)
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Shame about the size 16s.
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(http://www.plundered.net/images/jailbait.jpg)
Goldeneye @ n64 was a great game.
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(http://forums.filefront.com/attachments/spam-forum/64321d1213539853-de-motivational-posters-jailbait9.jpg)
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I don't take them anymore. Waste of money. However, I would like to get a gloucosamine product without breaking the bank. They seem to be rather expensive. Any recommendations? Are the one's at walmart any good?
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i think i'm one of the few at my gym that doesn't buy a $5 protein shake at the end of my workout
E
So am I. My shakes cost about a fourth of that.
why spend $5 on a shake when you can spend 50 cents on a can of tuna?
and no you do not need protein immediately after your workout ::)
E
Exactly where is a can of tuna $0.50?
And, why not take a shake after your workout? It certainly doesn't hurt and, if you're like many folks, you'll still be hungry enough 30-45 minutes later to down a regular meal.
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So am I. My shakes cost about a fourth of that.
Exactly where is a can of tuna $0.50?
And, why not take a shake after your workout? It certainly doesn't hurt and, if you're like many folks, you'll still be hungry enough 30-45 minutes later to down a regular meal.
Lots of guys neglect their diet and tell themselves its ok because they had a protein shake. The problem imo is that it's not as good as food.
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My protein costs about 66 cents per 30 gram scoop. And its high quality whey isolate (60%) + l-leucine (25%) + creatine monohydrate (15%). Thats about 24 grams of protein, 8 grams of leucine, 5 grams of creatine. Perfect. ;)
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Lots of guys neglect their diet and tell themselves its ok because they had a protein shake. The problem imo is that it's not as good as food.
Pre and Post workout I would argue that a whey supplement is better than whole food. Other times of the day the slow digestion rate+thermic effect+hormone response(glucagon) makes whole food better.
IMO supplements + solid diet = best.
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Pre and Post workout I would argue that a whey supplement is better than whole food. Other times of the day the slow digestion rate+thermic effect+hormone response(glucagon) makes whole food better.
IMO supplements + solid diet = best.
I think the 'amino spike' is bs. If you're eating a gram/lb throughout the day, you've got aminos aplenty. Arguements for 'anabolic triggers' like leucine are similarly shaky imo. I haven't noticed a bit of difference with any supp, including creatine and protein powder. The only supps I've seen work are the illegal ones (I've never tried legal designer steroids because of toxicity and endocrash fears). To be honest, I doubt that what the supp bs artists put on the label is what's in the jar half the time.
Doesn't mean they won't work for others, but they're not for me.
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I take good stuff
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I think the 'amino spike' is bs. If you're eating a gram/lb throughout the day, you've got aminos aplenty. Arguements for 'anabolic triggers' like leucine are similarly shaky imo. I haven't noticed a bit of difference with any supp, including creatine and protein powder. The only supps I've seen work are the illegal ones (I've never tried legal designer steroids because of toxicity and endocrash fears). To be honest, I doubt that what the supp bs artists put on the label is what's in the jar half the time.
Doesn't mean they won't work for others, but they're not for me.
Have you ever tried drinking a whey isolate about 30 mins pre workout ?
This makes a huge difference for myself, and I will never train without some kind of whey pre workout. My strength, pump, & endurance all go through the roof.
Since I have started adding in extra leucine to all my shakes (about 4 months ago) I do seem to recover quicker, and stay harder.
(oh and meat proteins digest at about a rate of 3-6 grams per hour... whey protein will digest pretty much all at once.. thats a big advantage.
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Lots of guys neglect their diet and tell themselves its ok because they had a protein shake. The problem imo is that it's not as good as food.
If they neglect their diet, then the fault is on them. That doesn't make the idea of taking post-workout shakes a bad one. As I've said before, this isn't an "either/or" issue. Use food AND supplements to get the results you desire. You don't get some "hardcore trainer" merit badge for not using supplements (or not using those of a particular company).
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I think the 'amino spike' is bs. If you're eating a gram/lb throughout the day, you've got aminos aplenty. Arguements for 'anabolic triggers' like leucine are similarly shaky imo. I haven't noticed a bit of difference with any supp, including creatine and protein powder. The only supps I've seen work are the illegal ones (I've never tried legal designer steroids because of toxicity and endocrash fears). To be honest, I doubt that what the supp bs artists put on the label is what's in the jar half the time.
Doesn't mean they won't work for others, but they're not for me.
I agree 100%.
Show me a decently done emperical study on any supplement.
Not the "You can feel the difference" and "You will feel great" and "You will recuperate better" BS.
Well I made that study on myself. My result: they don't work, at least not for me.
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Haha, I'm not refusing supplements out of some need to appear hardcore. If you know my posts, you know I'm not. I've used them in the past and I simply think they are entirely ineffective. They make zero difference for me.
I'm not talking about vitamins, fish oil, or stuff that a non bodybuilder might take for general health. I'm talking about bodybuilding specific supplements.
If they work for you then go for it, but people need to make their own assessments of a supp's efficacy and not feel obliged to take pills and powders because of the copious hype which tells them to.
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I agree 100%.
Show me a decently done emperical study on any supplement.
Not the "You can feel the difference" and "You will feel great" and "You will recuperate better" BS.
Well I made that study on myself. My result: they don't work, at least not for me.
Yup. You've got to make your own honest judgement.
Going by this thread, most guys don't notice a difference with bodybuilding supplements.
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Haha, I'm not refusing supplements out of some need to appear hardcore. If you know my posts, you know I'm not. I've used them in the past and I simply think they are entirely ineffective. They make zero difference for me.
Same here, I tried Creatine, Glutamin/Aminos, NOs, and a lots of other rat poison. I did cuts and bulks with and without them. No difference. Sure some of them make you "feel" better or stronger. But for the goals of bulk or a cut, they are useless. The only thing that's important IMO is a certain amount of protein intake, which you can make more convenient with protein powder.
I'm not talking about vitamins, fish oil, or stuff that a non bodybuilder might take for general health. I'm talking about bodybuilding specific supplements.
Healthy oils, I agree with. Multi-vits, I'm not so sure anymore. For my current diet, I ditched them.
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I take good stuff
Epic shaving of pubes.
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Epic shaving of pubes.
:D :D :D
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Epic shaving of pubes.
hahahha i trim them, not really a hairy dude 'Decide'
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Epic shaving of pubes.
LOL
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besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.
Yes, most supps are worthless, but it also depends on why you are taking them. Ergo, there may be health related uses for a supp, etc. Here's a vid of my personal supplement "stash"
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Here's a vid of my personal supplement "stash"
Yes but other than being a fan of those supplements, where's the evidence?
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Yes but other than being a fan of those supplements, where's the evidence?
The evidence for which? Evidence for what effects? I briefly mention what I feel they are good for and what they are not good for. Gotta be a little more specific....
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Arginine is a waste of money.
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The evidence for which? Gotta be a little more specific.... ::)
Beats me, just too much of them. :D
Do you really take all of that?
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Brinkzone,
Do you HONESTLY believe there is a night and day difference between a persons health if they used these supplements u pointed out or not?
All of the supplements in your fridge you are basically just saying "I take Super X supplement, its great for "....", I take X supplement also for this effect"... etc etc
#1, do you have a heavy background in health and chemistry? Specifically im asking.. what logic are you using to support your claims of life extension, better for health, yada yada, besides going by what is said on a pretty bottle with a sales gimmick?
Multi vitamins, meh, maybe.. I think if you incorporate enough NATURAL EARTH FOODS into your diet, then that should already be taken care of. Basically if you can get it at GNC, chances are you can get a much better version thats natural and not synthetic.
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The evidence for which? Evidence for what effects? I briefly mention what I feel they are good for and what they are not good for. Gotta be a little more specific....
Where are the empirical studies that show if any of those supps do anything, you can't get from regular food?
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Brinkzone,
Do you HONESTLY believe there is a night and day difference between a persons health if they used these supplements u pointed out or not?
Why do I require a "night and day" difference? How would you define "night and day"? Night and day is not a scientific term. Do I believe the data supports their uses for what I use them for? Yes I do.
#1, do you have a heavy background in health and chemistry? Specifically im asking..
Bio:
http://www.brinkzone.com/bio.php
Do a Google search for Will Brink.
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Beats me, just too much of them. :D
At least you're honest! ;D
Do you really take all of that?
Yup. ;)
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So am I. My shakes cost about a fourth of that.
Exactly where is a can of tuna $0.50?
And, why not take a shake after your workout? It certainly doesn't hurt and, if you're like many folks, you'll still be hungry enough 30-45 minutes later to down a regular meal.
look for sales and stock up
i never said you shouldn't take a shake after a workout
E
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vitamins with every meal?
you know some vitamins are unhealthy to overdose right?
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I would expect if you used over 5 different damn supplements on a daily basis, it would hopefully significantly benefit you. Im not saying i expect it to cure cancer, BUT, what is SOOOOOOOOO special about supplements in general that cannot be attained through natural methods (veggies, fruits, etc etc)
Im not trying to be a dick so please do not take it that way. I used to use supplements for years and years, but I have come to the conclusion that the human body has not evolved to such an extent that we cannot acquire all of our health needs through nature.
In regards to bodybuilding specifically (muscle increase, fat loss) - MAYBE whey protein can be used for convenience, but what can u not get from chicken or steak or tuna or eggs? The only stack i will stand firm buy is the classic ECA. It WORKS UNBELIEVABLY GREAT. Anything else seems just to be on the covers a magazine with a pretty lady and muscular dude standing by it saying it gave incredible gains. ::)
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vitamins with every meal?
you know some vitamins are unhealthy to overdose right?
How about supplying a study on that? There are only a few vites that approach toxic at high doses BTW.
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I would expect if you used over 5 different damn supplements on a daily basis, it would hopefully significantly benefit you.
And they do.
Im not saying i expect it to cure cancer, BUT,
Actually....ever see the data on whey and cancer? Here's an article:
Fighting Cancer With Whey
Studies on whey demonstrate it's an even better protein supplement than previously thought. Although whey protein's health benefits have only recently been elucidated, the use of whey protein for medicinal purposes has been prescribed since the time of Hippocrates. In fact, there are two ancient proverbs from the Italian city of Florence that say, "If you want to live a healthy and active life, drink whey," and, "If everyone were raised on whey, doctors would be bankrupt."
In previous issues, we've chronicled the extensive research showing the many potential health benefits of whey protein concentrate. The majority of that research was done in the 1980s and early 1990s, and was extremely persuasive. Scientists have continued their research on whey proteins with even more impressive results. What follows is some of the more current, interesting and useful research on whey proteins.
Whey and Cancer
Additional studies have been done on animals regarding cancer-causing chemicals to see what effects whey protein concentrate would have on cancer prevention or treatment. Scientists fed rats various proteins and then subjected them to the powerful carcinogen dimethylhydrazine.
As with the previous research, the rats fed whey protein concentrate showed fewer tumors and a reduced pooled area of tumors (tumor mass index). The researchers found whey protein offered "considerable protection to the host" over that of other proteins, including soy. 1
Even more exciting, in vivo research on cancer and whey showed whey protein concentrate inhibited the growth of breast cancer cells at low concentrations (Baruchel S. and Vaiu G., Anti Cancer Research, 1996). Finally, and most importantly, a fairly recent clinical study with cancer patients showed a regression in some patient's tumors when fed whey protein concentrate at 30 grams per day. 2
Whey and Glutathione
This new research using whey protein concentrate led researchers to an amazing discovery regarding the relationship between cancerous cells, glutathione (GSH) and whey protein concentrate. It was found that whey protein concentrate selectively depletes cancer cells of their glutathione, thus making them more susceptible to cancer treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy.
It has been found that cancer cells and normal cells will respond differently to nutrients and drugs that affect glutathione status. What is most interesting to note is the fact that the concentration of glutathione in tumor cells is higher than that of the normal cells that surround it. This difference in glutathione status between normal cells and cancer cells is believed to be an important factor in cancer cells' resistance to chemotherapy.
As the researchers put it, "Tumor cell GSH concentration may be among the determinants of the cytotoxicity [poisonous to cells] of many chemotherapeutic agents and of radiation, and an increase in GSH concentration appears to be at least one of the mechanisms of acquired drug resistance to chemotherapy."
They further state, "It is well-known that rapid GSH synthesis in tumor cells is associated with high rates of cellular proliferation. Depletion of tumor GSH in vivo decreases the rate of cellular proliferation and inhibits cancer growth."
The problem is, it's difficult to reduce glutathione sufficiently in tumor cells without placing healthy tissue at risk and putting the cancer patient in a worse condition. What is needed is a compound that can selectively deplete the cancer cells of their glutathione, while increasing, or at least maintaining, the levels of glutathione in healthy cells.
This is exactly what whey protein appears to do. In this new research it was found that cancer cells subjected to whey proteins were depleted of their glutathione, and their growth was inhibited, while normal cells had an increase in GSH and increased cellular growth.
These effects were not seen with other proteins. Not surprisingly, the researchers concluded, "Selective depletion of tumor GSH may in fact render cancer cells more vulnerable to the action of chemotherapy and eventually protect normal tissue against the deleterious effects of chemotherapy." The exact mechanism by which whey protein achieves this is not fully understood, but it appears that it interferes with the normal feedback mechanism and regulation of glutathione in cancer cells.
It is known that glutathione production is negatively inhibited by its own synthesis. Being that baseline glutathione levels in cancer cells are higher than that of normal cells, it is probably easier to reach the level of negative-feedback inhibition in the cancer cells' glutathione levels than in the normal cells' glutathione levels.
Whey and LDL Cholesterol
The positive health benefits of whey protein concentrate does not end with its effects on immunity and cancer prevention and treatment. Whey protein concentrate also was found to be a potent inhibitor of oxidized low density lipoprotein cholesterol. Current research suggests that the conversion of LDL to oxidized LDL is the trigger that leads to atherogenesis... the formation of the plaque and lesions associated with atherosclerosis.
Therefore, any substance that prevents the oxidation of LDL is thought to be anti-atherogenic. Though animal-based proteins have traditionally been implicated as being pro-atherogenic, whey proteins appear to be an exception to the rule. whey protein is made up of several minor and major fractions, such as beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, albumin, lactoferrin and immunoglobulin. It was discovered that the minor constituent responsible for the ability of whey protein concentrate to prevent the oxidation of LDL appears to be the lactoferrin fraction of the protein. 3
Lactoferrin In Whey
When the lactoferrin was removed from the protein, the ability of the whey-protein concentrate to prevent LDL oxidation was greatly reduced, leading the researchers to speculate, "Our results suggest that LF (lactoferrin) is the main factor responsible for the inhibitory effect of whey protein (on LDL) and it may function synergistically together with other factors in the whey protein, for example, alpha-lactalbumin."
Another study using rats examined the effects of whey protein concentrate and casein on cholesterol and the risk factors of heart disease. Though casein (another milk-based protein commonly used in research) is known to raise cholesterol in humans and animals, whey protein has the opposite effect, leading the researchers to note, "At the high dietary protein level [300 gram per kilogram of feed] , whey protein significantly lowered plasma and liver cholesterol and also plasma triacylglycerols." 4
The cholesterol-lowering effects of whey protein concentrate in this study also was associated with a reduction in LDL cholesterol. Most interesting was the fact that this effect on cholesterol was not seen when the animals were fed amino acid mixtures that simulated whey protein, so it is clear that there are properties within the whey that have these effects beyond that of its amino acid profile.
Whey and Bone Growth
Finally, whey protein appears to play a direct role in bone growth. Researchers found that rats fed whey protein concentrate showed increased bone strength and bone protein such as collagen. This discovery led researches to test whether or not whey protein directly stimulated osteoblast (bone cell) growth in vitro.
Whey protein was found to stimulate, dose dependently, total protein synthesis, DNA content, and increased hydroxyproline contents of bone cells. 5
It should be noted that not all whey protein concentrates are created equal. Processing whey protein to remove the lactose and fats without losing its biological activity takes special care by the manufacturer. The protein must be processed under low temperature and low acid conditions so as not to "denature" the protein. Maintaining the natural state of the protein is essential to its biological activity.
These research findings, combined with the previous decade of study on whey protein, should convince anyone that whey protein concentrate is truly the life-extension protein.
Previous Studies Include The Following:
* Whey protein concentrate dramatically raises glutathione levels. Glutathione is an essential water-soluble antioxidant in the body that protects cells and serves as a primary detoxifier of harmful compounds such as peroxides, heavy metals, carcinogens and other toxins.
* Glutathione also is intimately tied to immunity, and reduced glutathione levels have been associated with disease such as AIDS, atherosclerosis, Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease, to name only a few. In fact, glutathione levels appear to be one way of modulating immunity. 6
* Whey protein concentrate was found to consistently raise this extremely important immune stimulating antioxidant beyond that of any protein studied (including soy) to higher than normal levels in multiple animal studies. 7
A small pilot study with HIV-positive men who were fed whey protein concentrate found dramatic increases in glutathione levels of all the study participants, with two out of three men reaching their ideal body weight. 8
In fact, there have been several U.S. and international patents granted for the treatment of AIDS and improving immunity with whey protein concentrates.
* Whey protein improves immune function and fights infections. Animals fed whey protein concentrate consistently showed dramatic enhancement of both the humoral and cellular immune response to a variety of immune challenges, such as salmonella, streptococcus pneumonia 9 and extreme cancer-causing chemicals. This effect on immunity was not seen with other proteins.
References
1. (McIntosh G.H,. et al., Journal of Nutrition, 1995)
2. (Kennedy R.S., Konok G.P., Bounous G., Baruchel S., Lee T.D., Anti Cancer Research, 1995)
3. (M. Kajikawa et al. Biochemica et Biophysica Acta, 1994)
4. (Zhang X. and Beynen A.C. Brit. J. of Nutri., 1993)
5. (Takada Y., Aoe S., Kumegawa M., Biochemical Research Communications, 1996)
6. (Rosanne K., Fidelus and Min Fu Tsan. Cellular Immunology, 1986)
7. (Bounous G. and Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1991)
8. (Bounous G., Baruchel S., Faiutz J., Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1992)
9. (Bounous G., Konshavn P., Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1988)
http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=26
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Those life extension super omega fish oils are a fantastic bodybuilding supplement. All around body composition supplement.
And NO you wont be able to get fish oils from your diet ( Not in todays world, unless you are wealthy and dont mind spending a fortune on grass fed meat. )
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Those life extension super omega fish oils are a fantastic bodybuilding supplement. All around body composition supplement.
Bingo. Give that man a prize. ;D
And NO you wont be able to get fish oils from your diet ( Not in todays world, unless you are wealthy and dont mind spending a fortune on grass fed meat. )
Well you could eat lbs of fish known to be high in n-3 lipids, but you would have to eat fu*^ load to get what you need for bodycomp effects, and fish will have the mercury, PCBs, dioxins, and other chemicals best to avoid that will be removed (if they existed) from a high quality fish oil supp.
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How about supplying a study on that? There are only a few vites that approach toxic at high doses BTW.
Have you done any testing on what they are using for fillers...That is the real problem with just taking anything on the market...
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Those life extension super omega fish oils are a fantastic bodybuilding supplement. All around body composition supplement.
And NO you wont be able to get fish oils from your diet ( Not in todays world, unless you are wealthy and dont mind spending a fortune on grass fed meat. )
2/3 of the people on here have there fish flown in twice a week from seattle at a cost of about 600 to 1000 a week in groceries...Just a friendly FYI :D
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Will, that's a good point you make about the glutathione benefits of whey. I won't argue with you on that one.
How long have you been taking ubiquinol for and at what dose? My old man switched over to it from standard CoQ10 and experienced some major abdominal pain. He's back on regular CoQ10 now.
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2/3 of the people on here have there fish flown in twice a week from seattle at a cost of about 600 to 1000 a week in groceries...Just a friendly FYI :D
Its the GETBIG way of LIFE........
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the only thing you need to take is whey, multi-v, fish oil, and EXTRA AMINO ACIDS. ohh yea i forgot roids they help too. i agvree all the other shit is a waste of fucking money. you spend all that money for minimal gains at best, when you can get a cycle of test-e, and everything you need for about $350. i used to spend that much on all the other shit until i figured out that they suck.
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I was also a suplement slut trying every new thing that came onto the market.
I blew thousands.
A good Pre work out booster, Protein Powder and something for my joints is good enough.
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agreed, if i only had all that money back. man i would really be a monster now. LOL
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I was also a suplement slut trying every new thing that came onto the market.
I blew thousands.
A good Pre work out booster, Protein Powder and something for my joints is good enough.
What would you consider a good Pre-workout booster?
What is it you take for your joints?
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What would you consider a good Pre-workout booster?
What is it you take for your joints?
I take a sup called "Athrogaurd" with Glucosamine Sulphate, Protease Enzymes and MSM.
It takes a week or two to work but it does, I started this when I was still doing judo.
I use a local Prework out booster by a firm Muscle Science called XPOLDE, it is very high in Stimulants ;D
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I spend close to $1000 a month on supps...
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Have you done any testing on what they are using for fillers...That is the real problem with just taking anything on the market...
Supply your source for fillers being the "real problem" ::)
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Will, that's a good point you make about the glutathione benefits of whey. I won't argue with you on that one.
How long have you been taking ubiquinol for and at what dose? My old man switched over to it from standard CoQ10 and experienced some major abdominal pain. He's back on regular CoQ10 now.
I have not heard of any stomach issues from ubiquinol form. It may have been un related. Did he use LEF brand? He should try that brand and see if he experiences the same issues. I bet he does not. I take 400mg spread over the day.
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the only thing you need to take is whey, multi-v, fish oil, and EXTRA AMINO ACIDS.
You don't "need" anything but food and water. People have been building great bodies without any supplements since humans walked on two legs, which is why I am such a big proponent of a good nutrition plan and exercise, vs looking or the latest greatest wiz bang supplement…I have no doubt, having seen it before, that given the right genetics (by far the greatest influence here), diet, and exercise plan, one can build a solid physique
Extra aminos? If you are eating plenty of protein and whey (which is high in BCAAs), you don't need extra aminos. That's you wasting $$$.
ohh yea i forgot roids they help too.
Good old Vitamin S... :o
i agvree all the other shit is a waste of fucking money. you spend all that money for minimal gains at best,
You’re making an assumption from the start that physique development is the end goal, which is not always true. Most of the supplements I use are health/disease prevention/longevity related, and all the supplements I use have health related overlap, even if they are associated with physique development. For example, whey and creatine are both associated with “muscle building” when in fact I have always said their potential health effects are far greater than their physique altering uses. Read my articles on either to see why.
It’s also perplexing to my why there is an attitude of “why not just have a good diet vs. using supplements” as if the two were some how mutually exclusive. “Why not do both?” is always my response.
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I have not heard of any stomach issues from ubiquinol form. It may have been un related. Did he use LEF brand? He should try that brand and see if he experiences the same issues. I bet he does not. I take 400mg spread over the day.
I don't know what his brand was but he said that ubiquinol has been the cause of gut pain in some (not all) users. I will mention the LEF brand to him however, but I think he's decided to stick with the less absorbant traditional ubiquinone.
He suffers from fibrilation (LAF I think), and has tried such things as CoQ10, carnitine, glutathione, and a few others. He thinks the onset of fibrilation is linked to caffeine, and I've suggested a possible link to low blood sugar after exertion or stress. Do you have any suggestions regarding fibrilation prevention Will?
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I don't know what his brand was but he said that ubiquinol has been the cause of gut pain in some (not all) users. I will mention the LEF brand to him however, but I think he's decided to stick with the less absorbant traditional ubiquinone.
He suffers from fibrilation (LAF I think), and has tried such things as CoQ10, carnitine, glutathione, and a few others. He thinks the onset of fibrilation is linked to caffeine, and I've suggested a possible link to low blood sugar after exertion or stress. Do you have any suggestions regarding fibrilation prevention Will?
I would look at the LEF protocol:
http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=509&query=fibrillation&hiword=FIBRILLATE%20FIBRILLATED%20FIBRILLATIONS%20FIBRILLES%20fibrillation%20
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Cool. Thanks man. :)
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Just read Franco's bodybuilding nutrition book. excellent.
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Just read Franco's bodybuilding nutrition book. excellent.
hi franco.
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I take a sup called "Athrogaurd" with Glucosamine Sulphate, Protease Enzymes and MSM.
It takes a week or two to work but it does, I started this when I was still doing judo.
I use a local Prework out booster by a firm Muscle Science called XPOLDE, it is very high in Stimulants ;D
Yes but would "XPLODE" withstand an emperical experiment where you would try to do the same bulk with and without it?
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Yes but would "XPLODE" withstand an emperical experiment where you would try to do the same bulk with and without it?
Yes it would, but you are asking the wrong questions. Wrong questions = wrong answers. The reason it would is because it contains creatine monohydrate (CM). The data or "empirical" studies as you say, have shown creatine monohydrate more effective than placebo in gaining strength and LBM. So, you have to actually look at what's in a product to ask such a question. The product claims 7,200 mg, in its "Strength & Cell Volumising*, Anabolic Matrix" and what % is CM is unclear. There are other compounds in the formula that may be helpful,such as caffeine for energy, etc, but have either less data to support their use, and or it' unclear what the doses are. See:
http://www.musclescience.co.za/products/xplode.htm
So, the correct question would be: "would using this formula be more effective than using an equal dose of CM vs. placebo for increasing LBM and strength?" The answer to that is unknown as the two have not been studied head to head, but the other compounds may have additive effects above the CM alone, though using CM alone is far less $$$$.
* = One would think they would spell that volumizing.
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Yes it would, but you are asking the wrong questions. Wrong questions = wrong answers. The reason it would is because it contains creatine monohydrate (CM). The data or "empirical" studies as you say, have shown creatine monohydrate more effective than placebo in gaining strength and LBM. So, you have to actually look at what's in a product to ask such a question. The product claims 7,200 mg, in its "Strength & Cell Volumising*, Anabolic Matrix" and what % is CM is unclear. There are other compounds in the formula that may be helpful,such as caffeine for energy, etc, but have either less data to support their use, and or it' unclear what the doses are. See:
http://www.musclescience.co.za/products/xplode.htm
So, the correct question would be: "would using this formula be more effective than using an equal dose of CM vs. placebo for increasing LBM and strength?" The answer to that is unknown as the two have not been studied head to head, but the other compounds may have additive effects above the CM alone, though using CM alone is far less $$$$.
* = One would think they would spell that volumizing.
My question wasn't very precise, I agree. I made a thread which deals with such questions in more precision:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0)
see "P4".
Why are there no such emperical studies (at least none published)?
CM is maybe the only supplement with any effect in bodybuilding terms, at least on some people.
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Why are there no such emperical studies (at least none published)?
Several reasons. One, they cost a lot of $$$$. Two, why pay for studies when you can baffle people with BS via over hyped marketing? Most supp companies don't give a rats ass if their products actually work. That's actually not a bad formula. Whether or not it's worth the $$$ or more effective than some CM and a strong cup of coffee, is another issue.... 8)
CM is maybe the only supplement with any effect in bodybuilding terms, at least on some people.
There are others, but CM clearly has the most data and best track record. You also have to define "effective." Supps may have effects on recoup, or endurance, or immunity, or oxidative stress, etc, etc, which has benefits either directly or indirectly to the goal of changing bodycomp.
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Several reasons. One, they cost a lot of $$$$. Two, why pay for studies when you can baffle people with BS via over hyped marketing? Most supp companies don't give a rats ass if their products actually work. That's actually not a bad formula. Whether or not it's worth the $$$ or more effective than some CM and a strong cup of coffee, is another issue.... 8)
The companies know that their products don't work, I'm pretty sure of that. The big ones must make extensive tests anyway at least to make sure the products won't do any harm.
There are others, but CM clearly has the most data and best track record. You also have to define "effective." Supps may have effects on recoup, or endurance, or immunity, or oxidative stress, etc, etc, which has benefits either directly or indirectly to the goal of changing bodycomp.
For my definition of "effective", see "P1" in my thread
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0)
would be interested in your input.
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The companies know that their products don't work, I'm pretty sure of that.
Know they don't work is not the same as don't care if they actually work or not, or work as well or better then a cheaper alternative.
The big ones must make extensive tests anyway at least to make sure the products won't do any harm.
Funny! Wrong, but funny! ;D
For my definition of "effective", see "P1" in my thread
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=236639.0)
would be interested in your input.
I'm unclear what I was looking at. Anything a single person does to track an effect on their own may be interesting for that person, but it's an n =1 subjective observation and a long way from objective data. Think true double blind placebo studies with large enough n numbers to be worth a damn and well run. Plenty of "double blind placebo" studies are not worth the paper they are printed on, much less the other junk that passes for "research" out there...
If interested in some of the inside dirt on the supp industry and such, I do go into a some detail on that in a recent interview. A snippet:
"I get called into a meeting with the owner of the company and he shows me what they are working on. He asks what I think about it, so I tell him the truth, which is, the research does not support the claims they plan on making about this product and it’s generally worthless. The owner gets a “gee, this guy is really naive” look on his face and says to me:
“Will, what we do is throw sh&% against the wall and see what sticks. We can worry about the rest later.”
Cont:
http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?aid=135&acatid=3
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Know they don't work is not the same as don't care if they actually work or not, or work as well or better then a cheaper alternative.
Funny! Wrong, but funny! ;D
It's not the same, I agree. My point was that they must know by now in any case. I'm not saying, they would not want to put out anything that works (which is probably still true for some of them), I'm saying, there isn't anything. I'm only talking for bodybuilding purpose, though.
I'm unclear what I was looking at. Anything a single person does to track an effect on their own may be interesting for that person, but it's an n =1 subjective observation and a long way from objective data. Think true double blind placebo studies with large enough n numbers to be worth a damn and well run. Plenty of "double blind placebo" studies are not worth the paper they are printed on, much less the other junk that passes for "research" out there...
You asked for my definition of effectiveness (= enhancement factor in my article) in terms of bodybuilding. This is described in P1 of my article and the formulas above (and has nothing to do with how many people are involved in a certain study, for more people -> average, see P2):
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Bulk: gaining body weight at a certain rate [W = pounds gained / week] with a certain ratio of muscle vs. fat [R = pounds muscle / pounds fat] gained at the end of the bulk.
Cut: losing body weight at a certain rate [W = pounds lost / week] with a certain ratio of fat vs. muscle [R = pounds fat / pounds muscle] lost at the end of the cut.
...
The person could e.g. perform a cut with a certain supplement and write down R1, then a bulk and then the exact same cut but without the supplement and write down R2. The enhancement factor of the method can be calculated as E = (R1 - R2) / R2. If e.g. R1 = 5 (meaning that for 5lbs of fat loss, 1lb of muscle was lost) and R2 = 4, E would be 25%.
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If interested in some of the inside dirt on the supp industry and such, I do go into a some detail on that in a recent interview. A snippet:
"I get called into a meeting with the owner of the company and he shows me what they are working on. He asks what I think about it, so I tell him the truth, which is, the research does not support the claims they plan on making about this product and it’s generally worthless. The owner gets a “gee, this guy is really naive” look on his face and says to me:
“Will, what we do is throw sh&% against the wall and see what sticks. We can worry about the rest later.”
Cont:
http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?aid=135&acatid=3
I can believe that that's how it starts. But as soon as a product catches on, they would be stupid to not at least test for potential dangers.
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It's not the same, I agree. My point was that they must know by now in any case. I'm not saying, they would not want to put out anything that works (which is probably still true for some of them), I'm saying, there isn't anything. I'm only talking for bodybuilding purpose, though.
I'm saying there are other supps worth taking for bbing purposes, some with direct effects and some with indirect effects.
The enhancement factor of the method can be calculated as E = (R1 - R2) / R2. If e.g. R1 = 5 (meaning that for 5lbs of fat loss, 1lb of muscle was lost) and R2 = 4, E would be 25%.
All of which is n=1 subjective (by scientists standards) observation where the person attempts to control all the variables, which does not allow for large scale conclusions. What is your background in research methodology in the biological sciences?
To the person following the above, yes, people should attempt as best as possible to repeat exactly what they did before to track the effects of any additions/subtractions to a program, but it's not objective data anyone should rely on to say X has Y effects on people.
I can believe that that's how it starts. But as soon as a product catches on, they would be stupid to not at least test for potential dangers.
They don't, nor are they really equipped for such things. Nuff said there. Read my interview for more thoughts on the issue.
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brinkzone, calm the fuck down.
people either take supplements and benefit, or they dont. thats it.
95% is all bullshit. 5% maybe is worth something
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so your saying your the REAL WILL BRINK??? I read some of your articles as a kid man.....
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so your saying your the REAL WILL BRINK???
Yes sir. ;)
I read some of your articles as a kid man.....
I guess that makes me old. Bummer.... :o
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brinkzone, calm the fuck down.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/Drama_Llama.jpg)
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I'm saying there are other supps worth taking for bbing purposes, some with direct effects and some with indirect effects.
Depends on your definition of BB purpose, of course. For mine (only taking into account the ratio of muscle vs. fat), I believe there aren't any with significant effects. That's at least what my P1 has shown. And as long as there are no scientific emperical studies as you have defined them, I'll stick to my P1.
All of which is n=1 subjective (by scientists standards) observation where the person attempts to control all the variables, which does not allow for large scale conclusions. What is your background in research methodology in the biological sciences?
To the person following the above, yes, people should attempt as best as possible to repeat exactly what they did before to track the effects of any additions/subtractions to a program, but it's not objective data anyone should rely on to say X has Y effects on people.
Again, my answer to your original question is independent of the number of participants and also independent of the details of the study (e.g. double blind placebo vs. the simple form I have layed out). I was only talking about the formula E=(R1-R2)/R2. I agree that for scientifc purpose, e.g. double blind placebo with a large number of people would be more suited. However, I feel that the study I have layed out (P1 resp. P2) is much easier to perform and would provide the same results (E always 0). I did P1 on a lot of supplements and E was always 0. If the specifics of the study (as you have mentioned) would have a significant effect on the outcome, there should be at least one E <> 0. But you are right, that I can only say for sure that supplements don't work for me, since n=1.
They don't, nor are they really equipped for such things. Nuff said there. Read my interview for more thoughts on the issue.
Even worse in that case.
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Depends on your definition of BB purpose, of course. For mine (only taking into account the ratio of muscle vs. fat), I believe there aren't any with significant effects. That's at least what my P1 has shown. And as long as there are no scientific emperical studies as you have defined them, I'll stick to my P1.
Which is essentially what I do and recommend others do: attempt to keep all variables the same when adding/subtracting a supplement to see if it appears to be of any value. That's still not research, it's simply well controlled personal experimentation. Nothing wrong with it, as long as one does not call it objective research, 'cause it aint. I have trained hundreds, and gotten feedback from tens of thousands of supplement users at this point in my line of work, and I still never forget the differences between subjective experience vs objective data.
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As a bodybuilder from the 70's, we did quite well on multi's. Maybe some digestive enzymes and always one gram of vitamin c with your evening meal for recovery and growth. Before you guys flame-on, yeah d-bol was plentiful and cheap. But only the guys who trained like madmen actually grew. Stop looking for miracles in a bottle or jug! Train hard,eat good food. rest and grow.
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Which is essentially what I do and recommend others do: attempt to keep all variables the same when adding/subtracting a supplement to see if it appears to be of any value. That's still not research, it's simply well controlled personal experimentation. Nothing wrong with it, as long as one does not call it objective research, 'cause it aint. I have trained hundreds, and gotten feedback from tens of thousands of supplement users at this point in my line of work, and I still never forget the differences between subjective experience vs objective data.
I will make a few tweaks in my article, thanks for your input.
My main point is that if a large number of people use this method, and on each supplement they try, the effect is 0 (or very close to it) for the vast majority of them, the results cannot be too far from results derived from objective research. Only if the average E was significantly above zero and/or would vary alot between participants, an objective study would have to follow, to determine the exact avarage value of E. Or in other words: the layed out method is sufficient to show that a certain supplement does not work at all (if in fact it doesn't) but insufficient to show to what extend it works (if in fact it does).