Author Topic: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?  (Read 13797 times)

jaejonna

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14944
  • Head Asian of Getbig
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2008, 12:28:09 PM »
I take good stuff
L

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2008, 12:31:49 PM »
I think the 'amino spike' is bs.  If you're eating a gram/lb throughout the day, you've got aminos aplenty.  Arguements for 'anabolic triggers' like leucine are similarly shaky imo.  I haven't noticed a bit of difference with any supp, including creatine and protein powder.  The only supps I've seen work are the illegal ones (I've never tried legal designer steroids because of toxicity and endocrash fears).  To be honest, I doubt that what the supp bs artists put on the label is what's in the jar half the time.

Doesn't mean they won't work for others, but they're not for me. 

Have you ever tried drinking a whey isolate about 30 mins pre workout ?

This makes a huge difference for myself, and I will never train without some kind of whey pre workout.  My strength, pump, & endurance all go through the roof.


Since I have started adding in extra leucine to all my shakes (about 4 months ago) I do seem to recover quicker, and stay harder.


(oh and meat proteins digest at about a rate of 3-6 grams per hour... whey protein will digest pretty much all at once.. thats a big advantage.

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19263
  • Getbig!
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #102 on: September 23, 2008, 12:36:41 PM »
Lots of guys neglect their diet and tell themselves its ok because they had a protein shake.  The problem imo is that it's not as good as food.

If they neglect their diet, then the fault is on them. That doesn't make the idea of taking post-workout shakes a bad one. As I've said before, this isn't an "either/or" issue. Use food AND supplements to get the results you desire. You don't get some "hardcore trainer" merit badge for not using supplements (or not using those of a particular company).


wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2008, 12:45:00 PM »
I think the 'amino spike' is bs.  If you're eating a gram/lb throughout the day, you've got aminos aplenty.  Arguements for 'anabolic triggers' like leucine are similarly shaky imo.  I haven't noticed a bit of difference with any supp, including creatine and protein powder.  The only supps I've seen work are the illegal ones (I've never tried legal designer steroids because of toxicity and endocrash fears).  To be honest, I doubt that what the supp bs artists put on the label is what's in the jar half the time.

Doesn't mean they won't work for others, but they're not for me. 

I agree 100%.
Show me a decently done emperical study on any supplement.
Not the "You can feel the difference" and "You will feel great" and "You will recuperate better" BS.

Well I made that study on myself. My result: they don't work, at least not for me.

Tapeworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 29180
  • Hold Fast
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2008, 12:51:57 PM »
Haha, I'm not refusing supplements out of some need to appear hardcore.  If you know my posts, you know I'm not.  I've used them in the past and I simply think they are entirely ineffective.  They make zero difference for me.

I'm not talking about vitamins, fish oil, or stuff that a non bodybuilder might take for general health.  I'm talking about bodybuilding specific supplements.

If they work for you then go for it, but people need to make their own assessments of a supp's efficacy and not feel obliged to take pills and powders because of the copious hype which tells them to.

Tapeworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 29180
  • Hold Fast
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2008, 12:56:37 PM »
I agree 100%.
Show me a decently done emperical study on any supplement.
Not the "You can feel the difference" and "You will feel great" and "You will recuperate better" BS.

Well I made that study on myself. My result: they don't work, at least not for me.

Yup.  You've got to make your own honest judgement. 

Going by this thread, most guys don't notice a difference with bodybuilding supplements.

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2008, 01:01:56 PM »
Haha, I'm not refusing supplements out of some need to appear hardcore.  If you know my posts, you know I'm not.  I've used them in the past and I simply think they are entirely ineffective.  They make zero difference for me.

Same here, I tried Creatine, Glutamin/Aminos, NOs, and a lots of other rat poison. I did cuts and bulks with and without them. No difference. Sure some of them make you "feel" better or stronger. But for the goals of bulk or a cut, they are useless. The only thing that's important IMO is a certain amount of protein intake, which you can make more convenient with protein powder.

I'm not talking about vitamins, fish oil, or stuff that a non bodybuilder might take for general health.  I'm talking about bodybuilding specific supplements.

Healthy oils, I agree with. Multi-vits, I'm not so sure anymore. For my current diet, I ditched them.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2008, 01:05:34 PM »
I take good stuff

Epic shaving of pubes.
I hate the State.

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2008, 01:15:05 PM »

jaejonna

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14944
  • Head Asian of Getbig
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2008, 02:01:49 PM »
Epic shaving of pubes.
hahahha i trim them, not really a hairy dude 'Decide'
L

HTexan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20031
  • Heath must lose!!
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #110 on: September 23, 2008, 02:05:28 PM »
A

www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #111 on: September 23, 2008, 02:40:37 PM »
besides whey (which i dont think is anything but for $$- just eat some fucking steak/rice after workout) there is pretty much nothing except the classic ECA stack which is worth a shit. Creatine - yea, ok maybe. Unless u are using steroids, 90% of supplements are useless. Flavored sugar in a jug. Vitamins and minerals are legit.

Yes, most supps are worthless, but it also depends on why you are taking them. Ergo, there may be health related uses for a supp, etc. Here's a vid of my personal supplement "stash"


wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2008, 02:56:37 PM »
Here's a vid of my personal supplement "stash"



Yes but other than being a fan of those supplements, where's the evidence?

www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2008, 02:59:11 PM »
Yes but other than being a fan of those supplements, where's the evidence?

The evidence for which? Evidence for what effects? I briefly mention what I feel they are good for and what they are not good for. Gotta be a little more specific....

pumphard

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1553
  • Getbig!
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2008, 03:00:30 PM »
Arginine is a waste of money.

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2008, 03:03:29 PM »
The evidence for which? Gotta be a little more specific.... ::)

Beats me, just too much of them. :D
Do you really take all of that?

boonstack

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1521
  • watch out ladies... chaos is on the prowl
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #116 on: September 23, 2008, 03:08:01 PM »
Brinkzone,

Do you HONESTLY believe there is a night and day difference between a persons health if they used these supplements u pointed out or not?

All of the supplements in your fridge you are basically  just saying "I take Super X supplement, its great for "....", I take X supplement also for this effect"... etc etc

#1, do you have a heavy background in health and chemistry? Specifically im asking.. what logic are you using to support your claims of life extension, better for health, yada yada, besides going by what is said on a pretty bottle with a sales gimmick?

Multi vitamins, meh, maybe.. I think if you incorporate enough NATURAL EARTH FOODS into your diet, then that should already be taken care of. Basically if you can get it at GNC, chances are you can get a much better version thats natural and not synthetic.

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2008, 03:13:17 PM »
The evidence for which? Evidence for what effects? I briefly mention what I feel they are good for and what they are not good for. Gotta be a little more specific....

Where are the empirical studies that show if any of those supps do anything, you can't get from regular food?

www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2008, 03:16:59 PM »
Brinkzone,

Do you HONESTLY believe there is a night and day difference between a persons health if they used these supplements u pointed out or not?

Why do I require a "night and day" difference? How would you define "night and day"? Night and day is not a scientific term. Do I believe the data supports their uses for what I use them for? Yes I do.

#1, do you have a heavy background in health and chemistry? Specifically im asking..

Bio:

http://www.brinkzone.com/bio.php

Do a Google search for Will Brink.



www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #119 on: September 23, 2008, 03:18:45 PM »
Beats me, just too much of them. :D

At least you're honest!  ;D

Do you really take all of that?

Yup.  ;)

Earl1972

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22064
  • #EarlToo
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2008, 03:20:16 PM »
So am I. My shakes cost about a fourth of that.


Exactly where is a can of tuna $0.50?

And, why not take a shake after your workout? It certainly doesn't hurt and, if you're like many folks, you'll still be hungry enough 30-45 minutes later to down a regular meal.


look for sales and stock up

i never said you shouldn't take a shake after a workout

E
E

MAXX

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17042
  • MAGA
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2008, 03:20:48 PM »
vitamins with every meal?

you know some vitamins are unhealthy to overdose right?

boonstack

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1521
  • watch out ladies... chaos is on the prowl
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2008, 03:21:45 PM »
I would expect if you used over 5 different damn supplements on a daily basis, it would hopefully significantly benefit you. Im not saying i expect it to cure cancer, BUT, what is SOOOOOOOOO special about supplements in general that cannot be attained through natural methods (veggies, fruits, etc etc)

Im not trying to be a dick so please do not take it that way. I used to use supplements for years and years, but I have come to the conclusion that the human body has not evolved to such an extent that we cannot acquire all of our health needs through nature.

In regards to bodybuilding specifically (muscle increase, fat loss) - MAYBE whey protein can be used for convenience, but what can u not get from chicken or steak or tuna or eggs? The only stack i will stand firm buy is the classic ECA. It WORKS UNBELIEVABLY GREAT. Anything else seems just to be on the covers a magazine with a pretty lady and muscular dude standing by it saying it gave incredible gains.  ::)

www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #123 on: September 23, 2008, 03:31:47 PM »
vitamins with every meal?

you know some vitamins are unhealthy to overdose right?

How about supplying a study on that? There are only a few vites that approach toxic at high doses BTW.

www.BrinkZone.com

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
  • This Thing On?
Re: Does anyone actually take supplements anymore?
« Reply #124 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:37 PM »
I would expect if you used over 5 different damn supplements on a daily basis, it would hopefully significantly benefit you.

And they do.

Im not saying i expect it to cure cancer, BUT,

Actually....ever see the data on whey and cancer? Here's an article:

Fighting Cancer With Whey

Studies on whey demonstrate it's an even better protein supplement than previously thought. Although whey protein's health benefits have only recently been elucidated, the use of whey protein for medicinal purposes has been prescribed since the time of Hippocrates. In fact, there are two ancient proverbs from the Italian city of Florence that say, "If you want to live a healthy and active life, drink whey," and, "If everyone were raised on whey, doctors would be bankrupt."

In previous issues, we've chronicled the extensive research showing the many potential health benefits of whey protein concentrate. The majority of that research was done in the 1980s and early 1990s, and was extremely persuasive. Scientists have continued their research on whey proteins with even more impressive results. What follows is some of the more current, interesting and useful research on whey proteins.

Whey and Cancer 

Additional studies have been done on animals regarding cancer-causing chemicals to see what effects whey protein concentrate would have on cancer prevention or treatment. Scientists fed rats various proteins and then subjected them to the powerful carcinogen dimethylhydrazine.

 As with the previous research, the rats fed whey protein concentrate showed fewer tumors and a reduced pooled area of tumors (tumor mass index). The researchers found whey protein offered "considerable protection to the host" over that of other proteins, including soy. 1

 Even more exciting, in vivo research on cancer and whey showed whey protein concentrate inhibited the growth of breast cancer cells at low concentrations (Baruchel S. and Vaiu G., Anti Cancer Research, 1996). Finally, and most importantly, a fairly recent clinical study with cancer patients showed a regression in some patient's tumors when fed whey protein concentrate at 30 grams per day. 2


 Whey and Glutathione

 This new research using whey protein concentrate led researchers to an amazing discovery regarding the relationship between cancerous cells, glutathione (GSH) and whey protein concentrate. It was found that whey protein concentrate selectively depletes cancer cells of their glutathione, thus making them more susceptible to cancer treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy.

 It has been found that cancer cells and normal cells will respond differently to nutrients and drugs that affect glutathione status. What is most interesting to note is the fact that the concentration of glutathione in tumor cells is higher than that of the normal cells that surround it. This difference in glutathione status between normal cells and cancer cells is believed to be an important factor in cancer cells' resistance to chemotherapy.

 
As the researchers put it, "Tumor cell GSH concentration may be among the determinants of the cytotoxicity [poisonous to cells] of many chemotherapeutic agents and of radiation, and an increase in GSH concentration appears to be at least one of the mechanisms of acquired drug resistance to chemotherapy."

They further state, "It is well-known that rapid GSH synthesis in tumor cells is associated with high rates of cellular proliferation. Depletion of tumor GSH in vivo decreases the rate of cellular proliferation and inhibits cancer growth."

 
The problem is, it's difficult to reduce glutathione sufficiently in tumor cells without placing healthy tissue at risk and putting the cancer patient in a worse condition. What is needed is a compound that can selectively deplete the cancer cells of their glutathione, while increasing, or at least maintaining, the levels of glutathione in healthy cells.


This is exactly what whey protein appears to do. In this new research it was found that cancer cells subjected to whey proteins were depleted of their glutathione, and their growth was inhibited, while normal cells had an increase in GSH and increased cellular growth.

 
These effects were not seen with other proteins. Not surprisingly, the researchers concluded, "Selective depletion of tumor GSH may in fact render cancer cells more vulnerable to the action of chemotherapy and eventually protect normal tissue against the deleterious effects of chemotherapy." The exact mechanism by which whey protein achieves this is not fully understood, but it appears that it interferes with the normal feedback mechanism and regulation of glutathione in cancer cells.

 
It is known that glutathione production is negatively inhibited by its own synthesis. Being that baseline glutathione levels in cancer cells are higher than that of normal cells, it is probably easier to reach the level of negative-feedback inhibition in the cancer cells' glutathione levels than in the normal cells' glutathione levels.

 
Whey and LDL Cholesterol

 
The positive health benefits of whey protein concentrate does not end with its effects on immunity and cancer prevention and treatment. Whey protein concentrate also was found to be a potent inhibitor of oxidized low density lipoprotein cholesterol. Current research suggests that the conversion of LDL to oxidized LDL is the trigger that leads to atherogenesis... the formation of the plaque and lesions associated with atherosclerosis.

Therefore, any substance that prevents the oxidation of LDL is thought to be anti-atherogenic. Though animal-based proteins have traditionally been implicated as being pro-atherogenic, whey proteins appear to be an exception to the rule. whey protein is made up of several minor and major fractions, such as beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, albumin, lactoferrin and immunoglobulin. It was discovered that the minor constituent responsible for the ability of whey protein concentrate to prevent the oxidation of LDL appears to be the lactoferrin fraction of the protein. 3

 
Lactoferrin In Whey

 
When the lactoferrin was removed from the protein, the ability of the whey-protein concentrate to prevent LDL oxidation was greatly reduced, leading the researchers to speculate, "Our results suggest that LF (lactoferrin) is the main factor responsible for the inhibitory effect of whey protein (on LDL) and it may function synergistically together with other factors in the whey protein, for example, alpha-lactalbumin."

 
Another study using rats examined the effects of whey protein concentrate and casein on cholesterol and the risk factors of heart disease. Though casein (another milk-based protein commonly used in research) is known to raise cholesterol in humans and animals, whey protein has the opposite effect, leading the researchers to note, "At the high dietary protein level [300 gram per kilogram of feed] , whey protein significantly lowered plasma and liver cholesterol and also plasma triacylglycerols." 4

 
The cholesterol-lowering effects of whey protein concentrate in this study also was associated with a reduction in LDL cholesterol. Most interesting was the fact that this effect on cholesterol was not seen when the animals were fed amino acid mixtures that simulated whey protein, so it is clear that there are properties within the whey that have these effects beyond that of its amino acid profile.

 
Whey and Bone Growth

Finally, whey protein appears to play a direct role in bone growth. Researchers found that rats fed whey protein concentrate showed increased bone strength and bone protein such as collagen. This discovery led researches to test whether or not whey protein directly stimulated osteoblast (bone cell) growth in vitro.

 
Whey protein was found to stimulate, dose dependently, total protein synthesis, DNA content, and increased hydroxyproline contents of bone cells. 5

 

 It should be noted that not all whey protein concentrates are created equal. Processing whey protein to remove the lactose and fats without losing its biological activity takes special care by the manufacturer. The protein must be processed under low temperature and low acid conditions so as not to "denature" the protein. Maintaining the natural state of the protein is essential to its biological activity.

 

These research findings, combined with the previous decade of study on whey protein, should convince anyone that whey protein concentrate is truly the life-extension protein.

Previous Studies Include The Following:

 

 * Whey protein concentrate dramatically raises glutathione levels. Glutathione is an essential water-soluble antioxidant in the body that protects cells and serves as a primary detoxifier of harmful compounds such as peroxides, heavy metals, carcinogens and other toxins.
       

       
 * Glutathione also is intimately tied to immunity, and reduced glutathione levels have been associated with disease such as AIDS, atherosclerosis, Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease, to name only a few. In fact, glutathione levels appear to be one way of modulating immunity. 6
       

       
* Whey protein concentrate was found to consistently raise this extremely important immune stimulating antioxidant beyond that of any protein studied (including soy) to higher than normal levels in multiple animal studies. 7

       

A small pilot study with HIV-positive men who were fed whey protein concentrate found dramatic increases in glutathione levels of all the study participants, with two out of three men reaching their ideal body weight. 8

 
In fact, there have been several U.S. and international patents granted for the treatment of AIDS and improving immunity with whey protein concentrates.

* Whey protein improves immune function and fights infections. Animals fed whey protein concentrate consistently showed dramatic enhancement of both the humoral and cellular immune response to a variety of immune challenges, such as salmonella, streptococcus pneumonia 9 and extreme cancer-causing chemicals. This effect on immunity was not seen with other proteins.
       

References

1. (McIntosh G.H,. et al., Journal of Nutrition, 1995)
2. (Kennedy R.S., Konok G.P., Bounous G., Baruchel S., Lee T.D., Anti Cancer Research, 1995)
3. (M. Kajikawa et al. Biochemica et Biophysica Acta, 1994)
4. (Zhang X. and Beynen A.C. Brit. J. of Nutri., 1993)
5. (Takada Y., Aoe S., Kumegawa M., Biochemical Research Communications, 1996)
6. (Rosanne K., Fidelus and Min Fu Tsan. Cellular Immunology, 1986)
7. (Bounous G. and Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1991)
8. (Bounous G., Baruchel S., Faiutz J., Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1992)
9. (Bounous G., Konshavn P., Gold P., Clin. Invest. Med. 1988)


http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=26