Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: 240 is Back on January 08, 2009, 12:23:03 PM
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
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thats fine. drop the glutamine. drop the bcaa if you already have eaa. you could use whey iso or hydro instead. maybe add some leucine. dont waste money on vitargo or waxy just use dextrose.
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dude... why dont you just shoot some test and make real gains...
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
your version is fine for anyone not named Ronnie Coleman or Markus Ruhl, all the Milos version will give the average 190-200 pound trainer is expensive diahhrea.
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
Have you thought of adding weight lifting to this ???
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your version is fine for anyone not named Ronnie Coleman or Markus Ruhl, all the Milos version will give the average 190-200 pound trainer is expensive diahhrea.
what are you talking about... that is just about the same thing as the milos products...
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dude... why dont you just shoot some test and make real gains...
I'm a little bitch ass, short and stout :)
Have you thought of adding weight lifting to this ???
Come down to SW Florida. We train, hit Bob evans, then go to the rifle range. Totally anabolic day, brah.
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what are you talking about... that is just about the same thing as the milos products...
what? Rob is talking about having 1 5gm. of creatine/glutamine/bcaa shake during his workout and Milos is saying to take upwards of 30 grams of creatine/bcaa's/whey etc., not even close.
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what are you talking about... that is just about the same thing as the milos products...
Milos uses the highest pharmacutical grade amino acids.......in a specific ratio...
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This will yield similar results without the huge price tax.
A gallon of milk $3.40
A dozen raw eggs $1.99
Total = $5.40 plus tax.
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what? Rob is talking about having 1 5gm. of creatine/glutamine/bcaa shake during his workout and Milos is saying to take upwards of 30 grams of creatine/bcaa's/whey etc., not even close.
robs drink per shake =
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
milos pre shake=
5g amino acids
2.5g glutamine
2.5 gram creatine
.8g arginine
9g carb
milos during shake=
10g amino acids
2.5g glutamine
3.75 gram creatine
.8g arginine
10g carb
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dude... why dont you just shoot some test and make real gains...
Have you thought of adding weight lifting to this ???
to add, have you thought about eating?
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robs drink per shake =
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
milos pre shake=
5g amino acids
2.5g glutamine
2.5 gram creatine
.8g arginine
9g carb
milos during shake=
10g amino acids
2.5g glutamine
3.75 gram creatine
.8g arginine
10g carb
wait a minute i thought Rob's was the first thing he listed and then compared it to the Milos shake below it...............goddamn Rob don't tell me you're wasting money on the exact Milos shake are you?
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Come down to SW Florida. We train, hit Bob evans, then go to the rifle range,hit a sports bar,then head to a titty bar. Totally anabolic day, brah.
Fixed and I'm in :)
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Too complicated. I personally think PWO shakes are one of the most overrated things there is. That being said if you do use one, a simple carb/standard protein mix will work just fine. I've never understood 5 grams of this 10 grams of that 33% this crap. Well lets put it this way, I've never seen anyone get incredible results by switching to something that complicated vs just the simpler item.
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i wonder what that shake has for effect on my physique.
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
Milos' drinks contain way, way, WAY too much of everything. Even if you're a huge bb.
I would suggest a "light", easily digested protein mixed with the Gatorade. Drink a little before your workout and a little after. Say 20g of protein before and after.
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
amazing results.
(http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/FartFire.jpg)
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the first listing has a retarded amount of creatine, so stupid.
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Don't forget the Humalog preworkout! The main ingrediant for the shake that MD forgot to publish.
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Milos' drinks contain way, way, WAY too much of everything. Even if you're a huge bb.
I would suggest a "light", easily digested protein mixed with the Gatorade. Drink a little before your workout and a little after. Say 20g of protein before and after.
hahaha, finally a voice of reason, i'm sure if you asked 95 percent of IFBB pros about that drink they'd laugh in your face, better wear a diaper with that drink.
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Milos' drinks contain way, way, WAY too much of everything. Even if you're a huge bb.
I would suggest a "light", easily digested protein mixed with the Gatorade. Drink a little before your workout and a little after. Say 20g of protein before and after.
i dont really agree. did you look at what are in the milos shakes? its like 10 g carbs 10 g aminos. thats it. come creatieng lutamine and arginbine. but small amounts.
and i would suggest drinking they whey 45 min-an hour before to compensate for digestion rate, and whey during, to allow it to be available post workout immidietly. hydrosylate would be shorter. and i dont like gatorade either, as its about half fructose half glucose. rather use dextrose. cheaper, all glucose, tastes better too.
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3 shakes just to workout!!!!!
Fuggin HELL
180lb guy?
U might be needing some of these,,,
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GPGF3E9GL._AA280_.jpg)
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3 shakes just to workout!!!!!
Fuggin HELL
180lb guy?
U might be needing some of these,,,
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GPGF3E9GL._AA280_.jpg)
hahahaha, if you look closely at the upper end of creatine use for those shakes it comes to 20 grams :o i'd have diahhrea for a month. :-X
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the diaper/ diarhea thing is nonsense. and it you experience that from drinking a similar shake you have serious digestive issues. do you even understand digestion rates , the length of the intestine? shakes dont just go "right through you". it doesnt work like that. the food you shit is a few days old. it takes a long time for ingested food to make it al the way to excretion.
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wait a minute i thought Rob's was the first thing he listed and then compared it to the Milos shake below it...............goddamn Rob don't tell me you're wasting money on the exact Milos shake are you?
lol... nope... all i had:
5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup
I drank 90% of it in the gym, and 10% on the ride home. That's it. Then i waited 40 minutes and pigged the F out.
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hahaha, finally a voice of reason, i'm sure if you asked 95 percent of IFBB pros about that drink they'd laugh in your face, better wear a diaper with that drink.
Exactly, I tried these 3 shakes pretty close to what 240 describes around a workout, and it felt like someone put a cement block in my stomach. Was farting for like 4 hours staright, just one long fart. WMS and all that stuff is good, but a steak and potato ala Ronnie Coleman works as well.
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lol... nope... all i had:
5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup
I drank 90% of it in the gym, and 10% on the ride home. That's it. Then i waited 40 minutes and pigged the F out.
yeah that's what i thought you said, yeah that drink is fine for you, me or any other guy who doesn't have 260 pounds of ripped muscle to feed, hahahahaa, i'd be suffering on that Milos shake. ;D
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Exactly, I tried these 3 shakes pretty close to what 240 describes around a workout, and it felt like someone put a cement block in my stomach. Was farting for like 4 hours staright, just one long fart. WMS and all that stuff is good, but a steak and potato ala Ronnie Coleman works as well.
Dude the funny thing is MOST pros do not use many powders and pills. Steroids and real wholesome food is still what matters most. All these pills and powders are just a way to sell shit.
Remember Casey Viator's Peanut Butter Pudding?
2lbs of peanut butter
1 jar of grape jelly
3-4 bananas
. He also ate upwards of 2 dozen eggs and 2 gallons of raw milk a day.
Real food and steroids is all you need!
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post workout for me are 2 chicken snitzel sandwiches and a coke ....or McDonalds
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i dont really agree. did you look at what are in the milos shakes? its like 10 g carbs 10 g aminos. thats it. come creatieng lutamine and arginbine. but small amounts.
and i would suggest drinking they whey 45 min-an hour before to compensate for digestion rate, and whey during, to allow it to be available post workout immidietly. hydrosylate would be shorter. and i dont like gatorade either, as its about half fructose half glucose. rather use dextrose. cheaper, all glucose, tastes better too.
Are we reading the same thing? It's 45 grams of aminos before, then 45 grams AGAIN during, and then 50 grams of whey after. That's ridiculous.
I've also seen no research showing free form aminos are faster than say whey isolate. Not saying it can't be but I'm not sure. I did see one paper where whey isolate was faster than hydrolyzed whey. These things don't always work like you may think.
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This will yield similar results without the huge price tax.
A gallon of milk $3.40
A dozen raw eggs $1.99
Total = $5.40 plus tax.
quoted for truth.
i have studies that show how useless bcaa and eaa are when you are already taking a whole protein source.
milk is natures pre/post workout shake 8)
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Are we reading the same thing? It's 45 grams of aminos before, then 45 grams AGAIN during, and then 50 grams of whey after. That's ridiculous.
I've also seen no research showing free form aminos are faster than say whey isolate. Not saying it can't be but I'm not sure. I did see one paper where whey isolate was faster than hydrolyzed whey. These things don't always work like you may think.
ooo i saw that on about hydro and iso too. i just figured they fucked up and got i backwards.
im lookng a milos's pre load, xxpload, reload products on his site.
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quoted for truth.
i have studies that show how useless bcaa and eaa are when you are already taking a whole protein source.
Raw milk is natures pre/post workout shake 8)
Fixed! :)
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Here ya go Fatpanda:
There has been growing interest in the potential use of bovine milk as an exercise beverage, especially during recovery from resistance training and endurance sports. Based on the limited research, milk appears to be an effective post-resistance exercise beverage that results in favourable acute alterations in protein metabolism. Milk consumption acutely increases muscle protein synthesis, leading to an improved net muscle protein balance. Furthermore, when post-exercise milk consumption is combined with resistance training (12 weeks minimum), greater increases in muscle hypertrophy and lean mass have been observed. Although research with milk is limited, there is some evidence to suggest that milk may be an effective post-exercise beverage for endurance activities. Low-fat milk has been shown to be as effective, if not more effective, than commercially available sports drinks as a rehydration beverage. Milk represents a more nutrient dense beverage choice for individuals who partake in strength and endurance activities, compared to traditional sports drinks. Bovine low-fat fluid milk is a safe and effective post exercise beverage for most individuals, except for those who are lactose intolerant. Further research is warranted to better delineate the possible applications and efficacy of bovine milk in the field of sports nutrition.
My Comments
Milk, like all aspects of nutrition is often surrounded by controversy. From the nutjob tinfoil on the head anti-milk zealots to bodybuilders who say that milk makes you smooth, milk is often thought of as a terrible food for adult humans to eat.
Yet, objectively milk is an excellent source of high quality protein (a mix of casein and whey), carbohydrates (lactose, which admittedly some people have problems digesting) along with providing fluids, highly bio-available calcium, and electrolytes. Old time lifters often built large amounts of muscle mass with a program of squats and a gallon of milk per day; the idea is still around in various incarnations. In contrast to the anti-milk zealots, milk has been shown to have a number of potential health benefits beyond any sporting applications that may exist.
I’m not going to address the controversy regarding milk here, sufficed to say I’m on the side of milk (and dairy foods in general) being excellent for athletes and folks trying to improve body recomposition. The combination of both fast whey and slow casein is excellent for a lot of sporting and athletic applications, dairy calcium improves body composition, etc. And while dairy does contain quite a bit of sodium (which is what I suspect causes the issues with ’smoothness’ for contest bodybuilders), this is only an issue on the day of the contest. Dropping milk out 16 weeks out can only hurt fat loss, not help it.
You can read more about that in Contest Dieting Part 1. As well I discuss dairy proteins (both supplemental and whole food) in detail in The Protein book.
Which brings me in a roundabout way to today’s article which examines recent research examining the potential of milk as a sports drink.
The paper first examines much of what I talked about above, the overall macronutrient profile of milk. In that the recent area of research for sports nutrition revolves around carbohydrate, protein/amino acid intake, along with fluids and electrolytes, milk ends up covering all of those nutritional bases.
As noted above, milk contains a combination of both casein (a slow digesting protein) and whey (fast acting), along with a large proportion of the branched chain amino acids (BCAA). It also contains carbohydrates (lactose, see my note at the end of this piece), along with minerals, both sodium and potassium. Of course, milk automatically contains fluid and hydration/fluid balance is also important for optimal performance and recovery.
Moving on the paper first examines research on milk and resistance training adaptations. A number of studies have been performed from acute (single drink) studies to longer work looking at lean body mass gain. In one acute study, both fat free and whole milk were shown to improve protein synthesis following training; the whole milk worked better although the researchers weren’t sure why.
Of more interest, milk was shown to be superior to a soy based drink (both drinks contained identical protein, carbs and calories) in terms of lean body mass gains over 3-8 weeks. In addition, not only did the milk group gain more lean body mass, they lost a bit of fat. Of some interest, it was thought that the superiority of the milk was due to its slower digestion compared to the soy (a fast protein). As I detail in The Protein Book, in contrast to recurring beliefs that whey is superior post-workout, research shows that a slow or combination slow and fast protein following training appears to be superior in terms of lean body mass gains.
Quoting from the paper’s conclusion:
“Consumption of low-fat milk appears to create an anabolic environment following resistance training and over the long term with training, it appears that greater gains in lean mass and muscle hypertrophy can be obtained. Furthermore, milk may also lead to greater losses of body fat when it is consumed following resistance training.”
Now, moving onto endurance training, it’s first important to note that endurance athletes have a couple of issues to deal with (in terms of both performance and recovery) that strength trainers don’t necessarily have to deal with. This includes hydration and performance during training/competition as well as glycogen re-synthesis and re-hydration following training. While those certainly can be an issue following very voluminous strength training, they tend to be a bigger issue for endurance type training.
Now, about a zillion studies (give or take a couple hundred thousand) have looked at the impact of carb intake on endurance performance. The research is mixed and whether or not carbs help depends on the duration and intensity of training. Of more relevance here, some research has examined whether adding small amounts of protein during endurance competition can help performance. Some of it finds a benefit, some of it doesn’t; there is still some controversy over this issue.
In this vein, some work has examine the impact of milk during endurance training. While some potential benefits (such as increased blood amino acid levels) were seen, no performance benefits were seen and the subjects reported a fuller stomach due to the milk; this was likely due to the milk more slowly emptying from the stomach. This isn’t a good thing and what research has found a benefit of protein during endurance training invariably used faster proteins (whey or casein hydrolysate). I would not recommend milk during training.
However, as a post-workout drink, milk appears to be a good choice for endurance athletes. Some work has found that the combination of protein and carbs leads to better glycogen re-synthesis, however no research has directly examined milk in this context. One study compared chocolate milk to a commercial carbohydrate drink and found that the chocolate milk was at least as good at promoting performance as the carb drink.
With regards to hydration, a previous research review I did examined Milk as an Effective Post-Exercise Rehydration Drink, finding that milk was superior to water or commercial carbohydrate drinks for re-hydration following endurance exercise, presumably due to the sodium and potassium content.
Quoting again from the paper itself, the researchers conclude that
“The limited literature that does exist suggests that milk is as effective as commercially available sports drinks at facilitating recovery for additional performance…Furthermore, milk is also a very effective beverage at promoting fluid recovery following dehydrating exercise in the heat.”
The bottom link is that milk can be an effective post-workout drink for both resistance trainers and endurance athletes.
Practical Application
Clearly the research to date suggests that milk may be a superior post-workout drink following resistance training (at least compared to a fast protein like soy) and may have benefits for endurance athletes as well in terms of promoting glycogen synthesis, recovery and re-hydration following training.
Anyone who has read The Protein Book (or my other books for that matter) knows that I’m big on milk and milk proteins, they have massive advantages in terms of their protein content, dairy calcium, and other effects. Milk is readily available, tasty and relatively inexpensive.
However, there are a couple of caveats. For large athletes who need a large amount of carbohydrates or protein following training, milk may not be an ideal way of getting it. A typical 8-oz serving of milk contains roughly 12 grams of carbohydrates and 8 grams of protein. A large resistance training athlete might need 4-5X that many nutrients following training and drinking that much milk may not be feasible.
A compromise solution might be to use milk as a base and add extra nutrients (such as maltodextrin or dextrose powder for carbs and protein powder for protein) to achieve a higher nutrient density than milk itself can provide. So 16 oz. (2 cups) of milk with extra carbs/protein would get the benefits of milk along with sufficient nutrients for larger athletes to recovery. Similar comments would apply to endurance athletes who often need very large amounts of carbs following exhaustive training; drinking 4+ cups of milk following training may not be feasible.
As a final comment, if there is one major problem with milk for many people, it’s the presence of lactose (milk-sugar). Lactose, like all digestible carbohydrates requires a specific enzyme to be broken down called lactase. However, some people lose the ability to produce lactase/digest lactose; this can occur either completely or relatively (in the latter case, folks can handle small amounts of dairy).
Lactose intolerance, which should not be confused with a true milk allergy, can cause stomach upset, gas, and diarrhea in predisposed people; it’s racially based and some ethnicities are more or less likely to have problems. For those with lactose intolerance, but who wish to use milk following training there are several options.
The first is to find a source of lactose free milk. Brands such as Lactaid add lactase to milk to digest the lactose into glucose and galactose; this typically results in sweeter milk but without the offending lactase. Lactase pills are also available which can be taken with milk to help with digestion. Finally, there are products which claim to increase lactase levels in the gut and some people find that milk consumed with other food is tolerable; additionally, regular yogurt consumption can improve the ability to digest lactose.
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey Insulin to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
Shit your pants for the rest of the day. Oh, BTW, I fixed that other part for ya.
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and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout.
this is the key ingredient
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this is the key ingredient
is it cool if i just start ragging on you non-stop?
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is it cool if i just start ragging on you non-stop?
sure "tombola"
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sure "tombola"
explain what you mean by Tombola
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And just to add my 2 cents, milos' shakes are usually accompanied by insulin pre and post workout, so to use the same shake as milos is rediculous.
I do amino acids, creatine, and waxy maize pre workout, nothing during the workout, then amino acids and waxy maize post workout. But only 30g of waxy maize per shot because more than that will definetley give u the runs.
About an hour or so after the post workout shake, i eat a whole food meal with good carbs and a solid protein source.
IMHO, thats the best method. But what do I know, im 180lbs. ::)
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This will yield similar results without the huge price tax.
A gallon of milk $3.40
A dozen raw eggs $1.99
Total = $5.40 plus tax.
:)
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And just to add my 2 cents, milos' shakes are usually accompanied by insulin pre and post workout, so to use the same shake as milos is rediculous.
I do amino acids and waxy maize pre workout, nothing during the workout, then amino acids and waxy maize post workout. But only 30g of waxy maize per shot because more than that will definetley give u the runs.
About an hour or so after the post workout shake, i eat a whole food meal with good carbs and a solid protein source.
IMHO, thats the best method. But what do I know, im 180lbs. ::)
where do you guy get this " shakes give me the runs" crap?
your like the fifth person to claim this.
anyway..milos, from what i know, has people use 20iu slin pre workout. you can get your body to release an equivelant amount of insulin on your own with simple carbs like dextrose.
theres no reason to say a person cant use "insulin shake" withou the exogenous insulin.
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where do you guy get this " shakes give me the runs" crap?
your like the fifth person to claim this.
anyway..milos, from what i know, has people use 20iu slin pre workout. you can get your body to release an equivelant amount of insulin on your own with simple carbs like dextrose.
theres no reason to say a person cant use "insulin shake" withou the exogenous insulin.
From personal experience.
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And just to add my 2 cents, milos' shakes are usually accompanied by insulin pre and post workout, so to use the same shake as milos is rediculous.
I do amino acids, creatine, and waxy maize pre workout, nothing during the workout, then amino acids and waxy maize post workout. But only 30g of waxy maize per shot because more than that will definetley give u the runs.
About an hour or so after the post workout shake, i eat a whole food meal with good carbs and a solid protein source.
IMHO, thats the best method. But what do I know, im 180lbs. ::)
Brutal self ownage!!
j/k..... ;D
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Too complicated. I personally think PWO shakes are one of the most overrated things there is. That being said if you do use one, a simple carb/standard protein mix will work just fine. I've never understood 5 grams of this 10 grams of that 33% this crap. Well lets put it this way, I've never seen anyone get incredible results by switching to something that complicated vs just the simpler item.
QFT
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But what do I know, im 180lbs. ::)
180 lbs of sexiness 8)
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I've tried Milos's shakes and I've also made my own version on Trueprotein.com, never got the shits, and I've been getting awsome workouts, good pumps, look fuller when doing this pre/during/post shake protocal, I would have continued to order his supplements, but in the end it is just cheaper to make my own. Maybe you guys aren't drinking enough water which may be the reason the creatine is giving you the shits..
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Just drink 20oz of milk with 90g of whey PWO, Done.
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your version is fine for anyone not named Ronnie Coleman or Markus Ruhl, all the Milos version will give the average 190-200 pound trainer is expensive diahhrea.
so you're said it is great for dropping water weight? ;D
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180 lbs of sexiness 8)
QFT! ;D
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WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT INSULIN ROACH? INSULIN IS LEGAL UNLIKE THE STEROIDS YOU TAKE AND THE COKE YOU ARE ADDICTED TO. ONCE YOU ARE A COKE HEAD YOU ARE ALWAYS IN REMISSION.
How do you manage so many loyal followers Coach?
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I have a new practice of mixing 5 g glutamine, 5 g creatine, 1 scoop gatorade, and a bunch of ice cold water in a cup for my workout. I'm happy with the results so far (reduced soreness and of course the nice creatine bloat) and the extra sugar was great during leg day> I usually just drink water.
This is my ghetto version of the legendary Milos shake, which looks like this:
Pre Workout:
3-10g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
30-50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
During Workout:
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
15-20g Essential Amino Acids
15g BCAA
50g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Post Workout
3-5g Creatine
3-10g Glutamine
40-50g Whey
50-75g Vitargo or Dextrose
1tsp electrolyte drink powder
Is it good "as is"? Should I experiment with adding whey to it, or any of that dex?
Should protein be present in a During-workout drink? BCAAs? Aminos?
Why don't you just eat clean and lift your brains out? All that bullshit is worthless for you. You're not dedicated enough to utilize all that. It's not a diss, it's just the truth. Are you really training as hard as you should be, and eating as clean as you should be, or are you being a new dad with a busy life?
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Why the hell would you have both BCAA's and EAA in there?
The 3 amino's that make up BCAA's are already in EAA! ???
Marketing gimic that's fooled many.
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taking in aminos in that form is pretty pointless and an expensive excercise unless they are digested on an empty stomach. If you trained first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, and your goal was gaining muscle without any fat and the rest of your diet was geared the same way, no problem, take them before and after, but your wasting money if you have food in your gut and yes that means 3 hours after your last meal too.
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This will yield similar results without the huge price tax.
A gallon of milk $3.40
A dozen raw eggs $1.99
Total = $5.40 plus tax.
Guys like Rob really crack me up. He will focus on the most insignificant shit, and after training for years he doesn't even look like he lifts weights.
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taking in aminos in that form is pretty pointless and an expensive excercise unless they are digested on an empty stomach. If you trained first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, and your goal was gaining muscle without any fat and the rest of your diet was geared the same way, no problem, take them before and after, but your wasting money if you have food in your gut and yes that means 3 hours after your last meal too.
thats not true in the slightest. certain aminos are great and have beenefits, even if you already have complete protein digestin. and certain aminos act different and have different benefits when taken alone, versus when included in a whole protein source.
extra leucine and bcaas during the workout is beneficial, whether or not you ve already eaten beef or chicken or whatever.
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Lift,Eat,Rest,Repeat!!
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Lift,Eat,Rest,Repeat!!
BFTFTSBTOMTW !!!
"Bump for the fucking truth said by the old man Tim Wescott !!!!"
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YOU FORGET THE PRE WORKOUT LINE OF BLOW
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quote author=Stavios link=topic=257038.msg3618750#msg3618750 date=1231522651]
BFTFTSBTOMTW !!!
"Bump for the fucking truth said by the old man Tim Wescott !!!!"
[/quote]
;D
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Here's my experience. As a general rule, the guys with the most complicated routines/drinks with their "hour window" etc usually hardly look like they workout at all..
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Here's my experience. As a general rule, the guys with the most complicated routines/drinks with their "hour window" etc usually hardly look like they workout at all..
thats not my experience at all, not if they actually kno what they are doing. most true experts and knowledgeabl people, look exactly like you woudl think they do, based on what the say.
now, your right tho, alot of guys have super compleicated nonsense, with a bunch of useless garbage, that doesnt do anything. aqnd they look like garbage.
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That is one giant colossal waste of money! (only thing missing from those "drinks" is the kitchen sink!)
only thing u need Rob is a good Whey protein powder (eat every 3-4 hours/good "clean" high protein/medium to low carbs/low fat foods and train like a raped ape)
save your money for your kids (or the local strip joint!)
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Lots of idiot on this thread. During WO creatine, glucose and BCAA are unbeatable. All who are against it have never tried it. Milos shake is overkill though.
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thats not true in the slightest. certain aminos are great and have beenefits, even if you already have complete protein digestin. and certain aminos act different and have different benefits when taken alone, versus when included in a whole protein source.
extra leucine and bcaas during the workout is beneficial, whether or not you ve already eaten beef or chicken or whatever.
thats totally wrong candy, i had this debate with necrosis a while ago. necrosis made the same claim, i disagreed and stated that a complete protein source with the same amount of leucine would have the exact same response or better. neither won at that time due to there not being a study to back our respective claims.
however i have since found some studies that lean towards me being right ;D
Modulations of Muscle Protein Metabolism by Branched-Chain Amino Acids in Normal and Muscle-Atrophying Rats
ABSTRACT
It has been shown that BCAAs, especially leucine, regulate skeletal muscle protein metabolism. However, it remains unclear how BCAAs regulate muscle protein metabolism and lead to anabolism in vivo. We examined muscle protein synthesis rate and breakdown rate simultaneously during BCAA infusion in muscle atrophy models as well as in normal healthy rats. Corticosterone-treated rats and hindlimb-immobilized rats were used as muscle atrophy models. Muscle protein synthesis rate and breakdown rate were measured as phenylalanine kinetics across the hindlimb. In anesthetized normal rats, BCAAs stimulated muscle protein synthesis despite low insulin concentration and did not suppress muscle protein breakdown. In corticosterone-treated rats, BCAAs failed to restore inhibited muscle protein synthesis, but reduced muscle protein breakdown. Immobilization of hindlimb increased muscle protein breakdown within a day. BCAAs did not change muscle protein metabolism, although essential amino acids (EAAs) suppressed muscle protein breakdown in hindlimb-immobilized rats. We also evaluated changes of fractional synthesis rate (FSR) of skeletal muscle protein during infusion of leucine alone or EAAs for 4 h in anesthetized normal rats. FSR showed a transient increase at 15–30 min of leucine infusion and then declined, whereas FSR stayed elevated throughout EAA infusion. We concluded that 1) BCAAs primarily stimulate muscle protein synthesis in normal rats independently of insulin; 2) EAAs are required to maintain the BCAA stimulation of muscle protein synthesis; and 3) The effects of BCAAs on muscle protein metabolism differ between atrophy models.
as for bcaa use in general ::) a typical BCAA tablet has roughly ,50mg isoleucine, 100mg valine and 100mg leucine, while a chicken breast (100 g) has around 470mg valine, 375g isoleucine, and 656mg leucine - the same as around 7 BCAA tablets.
do not waste your money on bcaa supplementation.
also have a look at the study below that compares whey+casein/ whey+bcaa+glutamine/ and a carb drink. The bcaa mixture actually lost more muscle than the carb placebo drink ::)
The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training.
Journal: J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.
Authors: Kerksick CM, Rasmussen CJ, Lancaster SL, Magu B, Smith P, Melton C, Greenwood M, Almada AL, Earnest CP, Kreider RB.
Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798, USA.
Abstract: The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of whey protein supplementation on body composition, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic capacity during 10 weeks of resistance training. Thirty-six resistance-trained males (31.0 +/- 8.0 years, 179.1 +/- 8.0 cm, 84.0 +/- 12.9 kg, 17.8 +/- 6.6%) followed a 4 days-per-week split body part resistance training program for 10 weeks. Three groups of supplements were randomly assigned, prior to the beginning of the exercise program, in a double-blind manner to all subjects: 48 g per day (g.d(-1)) carbohydrate placebo (P), 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 8 g.d(-1) of casein (WC), or 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 3 g.d(-1) branched-chain amino acids + 5 g.d(-1) L-glutamine (WBG). At 0, 5, and 10 weeks, subjects were tested for fasting blood samples, body mass, body composition using dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench and leg press, 80% 1RM maximal repetitions to fatigue for bench press and leg press, and 30-second Wingate anaerobic capacity tests. No changes (p > 0.05) were noted in all groups for energy intake, training volume, blood parameters, and anaerobic capacity. WC experienced the greatest increases in DEXA lean mass (P = 0.0 +/- 0.9; WC = 1.9 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.3 kg, p < 0.05) and DEXA fat-free mass (P = 0.1 +/- 1.0; WC = 1.8 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.2 kg, p < 0.05). Significant increases in 1RM bench press and leg press were observed in all groups after 10 weeks. In this study, the combination of whey and casein protein promoted the greatest increases in fat-free mass after 10 weeks of heavy resistance training. Athletes, coaches, and nutritionists can use these findings to increase fat-free mass and to improve body composition during resistance training.
Lots of idiot on this thread. Pre/during/post WO creatine in milk glucose and BCAA are unbeatable. All who are against it have never tried it. Milos shake is overkill though.
fixed
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thats not true in the slightest. certain aminos are great and have beenefits, even if you already have complete protein digestin. and certain aminos act different and have different benefits when taken alone, versus when included in a whole protein source.
extra leucine and bcaas during the workout is beneficial, whether or not you ve already eaten beef or chicken or whatever.
Like Fatpanda says there's really no proof of them doing anything of consequence right now. Even if an individual amino is proven to turn on protein synthesis, like with leucine, it's a big stretch to say leucine supplementation causes muscle growth above and beyond that of a "good" diet. The supposed benefits are very theoretical right now.
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thats not my experience at all, not if they actually kno what they are doing. most true experts and knowledgeabl people, look exactly like you woudl think they do, based on what the say.
now, your right tho, alot of guys have super compleicated nonsense, with a bunch of useless garbage, that doesnt do anything. aqnd they look like garbage.
HAHA no they don't.
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What you people are forgetting is that 20 I.U.s of Humalog were added to the pre and post workout shakes....at least via milos's advices....
This shake is probably quite effective with slin, and giant set style training...
M!
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Like Fatpanda says there's really no proof of them doing anything of consequence right now. Even if an individual amino is proven to turn on protein synthesis, like with leucine, it's a big stretch to say leucine supplementation causes muscle growth above and beyond that of a "good" diet. The supposed benefits are very theoretical right now.
well, whats a good diet ?
its fact that extra growth occurs froom proper workout nutrition
its not a stretch at all to believe that extra leucine causes extra growth. if you think about the digestion rates of meat proteins, and the amount of available leucine or aminos youll have at any given time with a diet based soley on meat.... then youll begin to understand why freee frorm key aminos, and fast digesting sources of protein are so benficial to muscle growth.
HAHA no they don't.
yes. fact.
What you people are forgetting is that 20 I.U.s of Humalog were added to the pre and post workout shakes....at least via milos's advices....
This shake is probably quite effective with slin, and giant set style training...
M!
why would 20iu of slin make it more effect ? if you dirnk enough dextrose on its own, you coul easily get your body to release the san amount of insulin, or more. ( cred to van bilder for realising this).
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These ideas work but are they practical?
I'm not opposed to some carbs and BCAAs pre and intra workout as opposed to JUST post work out... but honestly, some slin, carbs and protein timed right is going to be just as effective as having an additional two drinks pre and intra workout. That is, unless you're counting microscopic gains made by the additional shakes. I think the money is better spent on quality cuts of fresh red meat, seafood and poultry.
One thing I like about BCAAs though is that lots of them taste really good. It makes it easy to get water down, especially during morning cardio.
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These ideas work but are they practical?
I'm not opposed to some carbs and BCAAs pre and intra workout as opposed to JUST post work out... but honestly, some slin, carbs and protein timed right is going to be just as effective as having an additional two drinks pre and intra workout. That is, unless you're counting microscopic gains made by the additional shakes. I think the money is better spent on quality cuts of fresh red meat, seafood and poultry.
One thing I like about BCAAs though is that lots of them taste really good. It makes it easy to get water down, especially during morning cardio.
i agree that its wrthless without adequate and proper nutrition the rest of the day. if one is gettin all the necessary protein and nutients , then theres no point in turning to workout nutrition just yet, spend that money on whole foods, like you said. (sole expection being whey protein pre and post workout)
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i agree that its wrthless without adequate and proper nutrition the rest of the day. if one is gettin all the necessary protein and nutients , then theres no point in turning to workout nutrition just yet, spend that money on whole foods, like you said. (sole expection being whey protein pre and post workout)
Yeah I take my pre and post workout nutrition pretty seriously, but it's not a nuisance as long as I prepare a few meals throughout the day. A few shakes and a carb drink post workout make meal prep a lot less of a hassle. I'm taking mofuckin' Celltech post workout (1 scoop: 5g creatine and ~37g of dextrose, yummy coloured water) with a bit of slin a couple times a week as I'm off AAS for a while. Got a snazzy BSL monitor and I'm getting leaner as I pay more attention to my blood sugar levels throughout the day. 8)
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well, whats a good diet ?
its fact that extra growth occurs froom proper workout nutrition
its not a stretch at all to believe that extra leucine causes extra growth. if you think about the digestion rates of meat proteins, and the amount of available leucine or aminos youll have at any given time with a diet based soley on meat.... then youll begin to understand why freee frorm key aminos, and fast digesting sources of protein are so benficial to muscle growth.
There's no proof that fast digesting proteins cause more muscle growth than slow digesting proteins. Or lets say you take fast digesting proteins around the workout and the rest of the day slow - will it cause more growth than only eating so-called slow proteins? There's no proof of that. I admit that there's some pretty good sounding theories on why fast digesting proteins might be advantageous at certain times (such as if you're training in the morning and have obviously fasted for many hours) - but it's far from proven. Would Levrone have been bigger if he had eaten aminos and powders in place of some of that fish and meat? My guess is no.
Also you can't look at these amino studies in isolation - only looking at acute effects. Sure aminos will boost protein synthesis nicely if taken before a workout but does that mean you'll end up with more net protein synthesis at the end of the day? The body is good at balancing things out... I could compare this to the debate on HIIT cardio vs. steady state cardio. Which is more beneficial for fat loss? It seems that at the end of the day the amount of fat lost is the probably pretty similar. Looking at acute effects on substrate use doesn't tell the whole story since the body balances things out. I'm thinking you can't "force" more muscle growth by spiking with Leucine or what have you. The HMB was a bust and that compound is a leucine metabolite that also stimulates mTor that's so in the rage nowadays.
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Would Levrone have been bigger if he had eaten aminos and powders in place of some of that fish and meat? My guess is no.
i read your whole post and youve got some good thoughts butit has bee proven. theres plenty of studies on these things.
weight trainign stimulates synthesis. amino acids- primarily leucine stimulates synthesis. insulin stimulates synthesis. androgens stimulate synthesis. there is no limit to the amount fo synthesisi your body will do in one day, except the rate at which it is able to synthesis.
you make it sound like the body is only going t grow so much in one ay , and adding extra synthesis stimuli wont help speed growth. bu weight training alone doesnt stimulate synthesis to such a degree.
anyway, no i dont think levrone would have been bigger by changing his nutrition strategies. however id o think he could have gotten to that size faster by changing his workout strategies. (you asked milos the same question and gave him that option). theres other ways he could have gotten bigger. ;D
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Van Bilderass.......Don't listen to Tbombz he's a moron who talks out of his ass. Look at his reply to your post. Supposedly there are tons of studies proven his argument yet he doesn't take the time to post ONE. LMAO! He owns himself everytime he opens his mouth regarding anabolics or nutrition. He'd still be a pimply face teenager with a 150lb body if it wasn't for roids. He has a lot to learn about nutrition.
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butit has bee proven. theres plenty of studies on these things.
Acute effects have been "proven", yes. It's a huge stretch to claim it's been proven that amino supplements make you gain more at the end of the day, especially if you're bodybuilder who's eating well in excess of maintenance with tons of protein (slightly more than what you'd probably need to max the effect, like many do).
Not even the researchers who do these studies would say it has been proven that amino (EAA for example) will make you grow more than if you had a complete protein supplement instead (supplying the same amount of EAAs). Read the discussion part here for example:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/4/E648
What you see is a ton of questions by the researchers that need answers. I can pretty much guarantee that no top protein researcher will claim that amino acid supplements absolutely, positively make you grow more than getting the same aminos from regular food. If you've read Layne Norton's stuff even he is pretty cautious in making claims like that. He does say he uses aminos etc but he can only theorize on certain things, such as meal frequency where he thinks it might be better to eat fewer but bigger meals.
Interestingly, if I'm reading it right, this study says it doesn't matter if you have the supp immediately, 1h after or 3h after the workout. You get the same effect on PS :D
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There's no proof that fast digesting proteins cause more muscle growth than slow digesting proteins. Or lets say you take fast digesting proteins around the workout and the rest of the day slow - will it cause more growth than only eating so-called slow proteins? There's no proof of that. I admit that there's some pretty good sounding theories on why fast digesting proteins might be advantageous at certain times (such as if you're training in the morning and have obviously fasted for many hours) - but it's far from proven. Would Levrone have been bigger if he had eaten aminos and powders in place of some of that fish and meat? My guess is no.
Also you can't look at these amino studies in isolation - only looking at acute effects. Sure aminos will boost protein synthesis nicely if taken before a workout but does that mean you'll end up with more net protein synthesis at the end of the day? The body is good at balancing things out... I could compare this to the debate on HIIT cardio vs. steady state cardio. Which is more beneficial for fat loss? It seems that at the end of the day the amount of fat lost is the probably pretty similar. Looking at acute effects on substrate use doesn't tell the whole story since the body balances things out. I'm thinking you can't "force" more muscle growth by spiking with Leucine or what have you. The HMB was a bust and that compound is a leucine metabolite that also stimulates mTor that's so in the rage nowadays.
you are 100% correct van.
here are 3 studies that show slow proteins > fast proteins for protein synthesis and reduced muscle breakdown:
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.
Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.
The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.
and this one compares fast and slow with identical AA profiles:
The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.
Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballèvre O, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand, France.
To evaluate the importance of protein digestion rate on protein deposition, we characterized leucine kinetics after ingestion of "protein" meals of identical amino acid composition and nitrogen contents but of different digestion rates. Four groups of five or six young men received an L-[1-13C]leucine infusion and one of the following 30-g protein meals: a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS), a single meal of free amino acid mimicking casein composition (AA), a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP), or repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate. Comparisons were made between "fast" (AA, WP) and "slow" (CAS, RPT-WP) meals of identical amino acid composition (AA vs. CAS, and WP vs. RPT-WP). The fast meals induced a strong, rapid, and transient increase of aminoacidemia, leucine flux, and oxidation. After slow meals, these parameters increased moderately but durably. Postprandial leucine balance over 7 h was higher after the slow than after the fast meals (CAS: 38 +/- 13 vs. AA: -12 +/- 11, P < 0.01; RPT-WP: 87 +/- 25 vs. WP: 6 +/- 19 micromol/kg, P < 0.05). Protein digestion rate is an independent factor modulating postprandial protein deposition.
and another than highlights that fast AA uptake is detremental, and that milk is good 8) :
Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement.Lacroix M, Bos C, Léonil J, Airinei G, Luengo C, Daré S, Benamouzig R, Fouillet H, Fauquant J, Tomé D, Gaudichon C.
UMR INRA 914, Physiology of Nutrition and Feeding Control Unit, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Paris, France.
BACKGROUND: The in vivo quality of milk protein fractions has seldom been studied in humans. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to compare the postprandial utilization of dietary nitrogen from 3 [(15)N]-labeled milk products: micellar caseins (MC), milk soluble protein isolate (MSPI), and total milk protein (TMP). DESIGN: The macronutrient intakes of 23 healthy volunteers were standardized for 1 wk, after which time the subjects ingested a meal containing MC (n = 8), MSPI (n = 7), or TMP (n = 8). [(15)N] was measured for an 8-h period in plasma amino acids, proteins, and urea and in urinary urea. RESULTS: The transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea occurred earlier after MSPI ingestion than after MC and TMP ingestion, and concentrations remained high for 8 h, concomitantly with higher but transient hyperaminoacidemia and a higher incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids. In contrast, deamination, postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, and the incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids were lower in the MC and TMP groups. Finally, total postprandial deamination values were 18.5 +/- 2.9%, 21.1 +/- 2.8%, and 28.2 +/- 2.9% of ingested nitrogen in the TMP, MC, and MSPI groups, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm the major role of kinetics in dietary nitrogen postprandial utilization and highlight the paradox of MSPI, which, despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, ensures a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain the anabolic requirement during the postprandial period. Milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between soluble proteins and caseins.
So basically slow beats fast 8)
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you are 100% correct van.
here are 3 studies that show slow proteins > fast proteins for protein synthesis and reduced muscle breakdown:
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.
Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.
The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.
and this one compares fast and slow with identical AA profiles:
The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.
Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballèvre O, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand, France.
To evaluate the importance of protein digestion rate on protein deposition, we characterized leucine kinetics after ingestion of "protein" meals of identical amino acid composition and nitrogen contents but of different digestion rates. Four groups of five or six young men received an L-[1-13C]leucine infusion and one of the following 30-g protein meals: a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS), a single meal of free amino acid mimicking casein composition (AA), a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP), or repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate. Comparisons were made between "fast" (AA, WP) and "slow" (CAS, RPT-WP) meals of identical amino acid composition (AA vs. CAS, and WP vs. RPT-WP). The fast meals induced a strong, rapid, and transient increase of aminoacidemia, leucine flux, and oxidation. After slow meals, these parameters increased moderately but durably. Postprandial leucine balance over 7 h was higher after the slow than after the fast meals (CAS: 38 +/- 13 vs. AA: -12 +/- 11, P < 0.01; RPT-WP: 87 +/- 25 vs. WP: 6 +/- 19 micromol/kg, P < 0.05). Protein digestion rate is an independent factor modulating postprandial protein deposition.
and another than highlights that fast AA uptake is detremental, and that milk is good 8) :
Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement.Lacroix M, Bos C, Léonil J, Airinei G, Luengo C, Daré S, Benamouzig R, Fouillet H, Fauquant J, Tomé D, Gaudichon C.
UMR INRA 914, Physiology of Nutrition and Feeding Control Unit, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Paris, France.
BACKGROUND: The in vivo quality of milk protein fractions has seldom been studied in humans. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to compare the postprandial utilization of dietary nitrogen from 3 [(15)N]-labeled milk products: micellar caseins (MC), milk soluble protein isolate (MSPI), and total milk protein (TMP). DESIGN: The macronutrient intakes of 23 healthy volunteers were standardized for 1 wk, after which time the subjects ingested a meal containing MC (n = 8), MSPI (n = 7), or TMP (n = 8). [(15)N] was measured for an 8-h period in plasma amino acids, proteins, and urea and in urinary urea. RESULTS: The transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea occurred earlier after MSPI ingestion than after MC and TMP ingestion, and concentrations remained high for 8 h, concomitantly with higher but transient hyperaminoacidemia and a higher incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids. In contrast, deamination, postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, and the incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids were lower in the MC and TMP groups. Finally, total postprandial deamination values were 18.5 +/- 2.9%, 21.1 +/- 2.8%, and 28.2 +/- 2.9% of ingested nitrogen in the TMP, MC, and MSPI groups, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm the major role of kinetics in dietary nitrogen postprandial utilization and highlight the paradox of MSPI, which, despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, ensures a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain the anabolic requirement during the postprandial period. Milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between soluble proteins and caseins.
So basically slow beats fast 8)
how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.
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how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.
some people are just anti-supplement and see what they want to see when it comes to research an fact
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Acute effects have been "proven", yes. It's a huge stretch to claim it's been proven that amino supplements make you gain more at the end of the day, especially if you're bodybuilder who's eating well in excess of maintenance with tons of protein (slightly more than what you'd probably need to max the effect, like many do).
Not even the researchers who do these studies would say it has been proven that amino (EAA for example) will make you grow more than if you had a complete protein supplement instead (supplying the same amount of EAAs). Read the discussion part here for example:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/4/E648
What you see is a ton of questions by the researchers that need answers. I can pretty much guarantee that no top protein researcher will claim that amino acid supplements absolutely, positively make you grow more than getting the same aminos from regular food. If you've read Layne Norton's stuff even he is pretty cautious in making claims like that. He does say he uses aminos etc but he can only theorize on certain things, such as meal frequency where he thinks it might be better to eat fewer but bigger meals.
Interestingly, if I'm reading it right, this study says it doesn't matter if you have the supp immediately, 1h after or 3h after the workout. You get the same effect on PS :D
i dont think its debateable at all... that if one takes two people.... both have the same number of meals per day , same amount and type of protein per meal, same amount of fats and carbs, equal genetics, equal trianing stimulus, equal homrones.... and one guy drinks 30 grams whey post workout and the other guy does not...... the guy who has the addition of the whey post workout will definitely progress faster than the guy who does not
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how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.
;D i knew you couldn't resist.
anti catabolic is better for muscle building than synthesis 8)
therefore casein is better than whey for bodybuilders.
also
Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers
Abstract
We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 ± 1.8 to 25 ± 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 ± 1.7 to 18 ± 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 ± 1.6 to 23 ± 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 ± 9% for casein and 29 ± 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.
and the final nail in the coffin, the full study ( which you can get here: http://www.betterwheyoflife.com/phys-dangin-01.pdf )shows whey has zero effect on stopping protein breakdown, while casein not only stops it, but also increases synthesis:
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.
The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.
So once again slow>fast
casein > whey
some people are just anti-supplement and see what they want to see when it comes to research an fact
you were saying ::) ;) ;D
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;D i knew you couldn't resist.
anti catabolic is better for muscle building than synthesis 8)
therefore casein is better than whey for bodybuilders.
also
Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers
Abstract
We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 ± 1.8 to 25 ± 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 ± 1.7 to 18 ± 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 ± 1.6 to 23 ± 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 ± 9% for casein and 29 ± 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.
and the final nail in the coffin, the full study ( which you can get here: http://www.betterwheyoflife.com/phys-dangin-01.pdf )shows whey has zero effect on stopping protein breakdown, while casein not only stops it, but also increases synthesis:
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.
The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.
So once again slow>fast
casein > whey
you were saying ::) ;) ;D
I'm high right now so i wont respond :D, but i just wanted to post so that you know i will respond in a day or so. I havent looked at the study but casein would be better overall then whey no doubt as a protein source, whey is a niche protein. Its like saying blocking cortisol is better for muscle building then taking testesoterone, not that simply.
anyway, im getting the nod, ill be back :o
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i dont think its debateable at all... that if one takes two people.... both have the same number of meals per day , same amount and type of protein per meal, same amount of fats and carbs, equal genetics, equal trianing stimulus, equal homrones.... and one guy drinks 30 grams whey post workout and the other guy does not...... the guy who has the addition of the whey post workout will definitely progress faster than the guy who does not
I don't agree that it's a foregone conclusion. Not at all. IIRC even Tipton, a scientist who's done a lot of these studies on aminos and exercise said that any increase in muscle gains from protein timing would take several years to manifest to a degree that's measurable, if at all. See if you can find a scientist in the protein field who can state what you say without any reservations. All they can do currently is theorize.
Again, you can't just look at acute effects. This is key.