Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: The True Adonis on March 03, 2009, 10:51:28 AM
-
If you don`t like taxes, don`t pay them. Civil Dissention is after all, the highest form of patriotism. :)
I personally think there should be a National Sales tax ON ALL NEW items. EVERYTHING IS TAXED! with the exception of food and housing.
Used items should also be tax free.
Changing the nation from a spending to a savings oriented nation will not only reward quality, but will promote correct conservatism as it is meant to be practiced.
This way, people will have total control of every dollar they make and will be in total control of their finance.
Everybody pays the same equally.
We can be as regressive and as progressive as we like with a National Sales Tax as the world economy waxes and wanes. 20 percent is the agreed upon amount by all Fair Tax/National Sales Tax economists.
-
This will provide way more money federally than the current broken tax system is capable of doing.
We can fund Universal Healthcare where people still have a private option if they like wasting money. Defense Spending is more than adequate, Social Welfare needs are taken care of and so on.....
-
Also, an idea I have been playing with is under this plan, when an Electronic receipt is being processed from a purchase, the consumer then has a menu of where he wants the tax dollars to go by selecting a category from the pin pad. This allows him the freedom to distribute tax dollars to where he sees fit. Of course the checks and balances for this would obviously go to the House of Representatives.
-
A 20% federal sales tax in lieu of federal income tax is a good idea. It rewards the savers, eliminates the redistribution of wealth, and boosts the housing market (assuming the tax does not apply to real estate).
-
"If you don`t like taxes, don`t pay them. Civil Dissention is after all, the highest form of patriotism"
________________________ ______________
Not according to Joe biden.
-
Ok....sure....tax dollars where u want them to go.
-
Ok....sure....tax dollars where u want them to go.
General categories via the GAO.
-
Universal healthcare has been a friggen disaster everywhere. Ever here of medical vacations?.....Screw that, cap lawsuits so guys like Edwards can't screw every doctor they see, cap insurance rates if u have to...and stop these ridiculous attacks on ": big pharmaceutical" companies. What, they're all evil right?
-
Universal healthcare has been a friggen disaster everywhere. Ever here of medical vacations?.....Screw that, cap lawsuits so guys like Edwards can't screw every doctor they see, cap insurance rates if u have to...and stop these ridiculous attacks on ": big pharmaceutical" companies. What, they're all evil right?
Nobody is going to mess with your private insurance, we just want to add a Single Payer option that is free for all citizens should they choose that option.
-
Universal healthcare has been a friggen disaster everywhere. Ever here of medical vacations?.....Screw that, cap lawsuits so guys like Edwards can't screw every doctor they see, cap insurance rates if u have to...and stop these ridiculous attacks on ": big pharmaceutical" companies. What, they're all evil right?
(http://www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg)
;)
-
Uh. I don`t think it would be wise to phase out Medical Malpractice.
Doctors are the Third leading Cause of Death in the United States.
As scary as it sounds, it's true. According to the most respected medical publication in the world The Journal of the American Medical Association, the third leading cause of death in the US after heart disease and cancer is doctor-induced or iatrogenic . Iatrogenic disease is defined as disease induced in a patient by a doctor's activity, manner or therapy; in short, it is a complication of treatment. The article dealt only with deaths in a hospital setting.
The article, which reported on a study conducted at John Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health, was a follow up to a study by the Institute of Medicine published in November 1999. The statistics given are 250,000 deaths per year broken down as follows: ¨ 12,000 die from unnecessary surgeries ¨ 7,000 die from drug errors made in hospitals ¨ 20,000 die from other hospital errors ¨ 80,000 die from infections obtained while in hospital ¨ 106,000 die not from errors but from negative effects of drugs
This study does not take into account several other factors such as complications and errors not resulting in deaths but which cause serious illnesses requiring more tests, more drugs, more emergency room visits and more surgery. Also not looked at are problems that occur in non-hospital settings: walk-in clinics, doctor's offices, private laboratories, etc. If these settings were taken into the data, the entire picture would be far frightening than it is.
This study took place in the US, which is the leading nation in the area of medical innovations and research. The shocking results of these studies would perhaps be justified if the US also lead the world's nations in such key health areas as life expectancy and infant mortality. However, the facts do not support the assumption either. In a recent report by the World Health Organization, the US ranks 12th out of 13 countries in 16 key health indicators. Hopefully, these facts will serve as a wake up call to doctors and patients alike. The message is clear: the modern medical paradigm is a flat out failure.
Hopefully, these facts will serve as a wake up call to doctors and patients alike. The message is clear: the modern medical paradigm is a flat out failure.
-
Yes but, under Obama's plan, most employers will drop private plans to save money, thus true universal healthcare. Unlike most of u who have healthcare on the board, my plan most closely resembles what Obama wants for the rest of the country. It works for the less then 1% of the population that use it. Its ok and I have no real complaints, but then again I don't really use it. Putting 3 hundred million plus people on a Gov health plan...its a friggen disaster. Plus I'm not paying for somebody elses healthcare.
Hey Adonis....this is the United States..I don't want to look like eveybody else. Medical vacations are the number one type of vacation in the UK. I have relatives all over the commonwealth countries, very few have the public healthcare plans because they suck. Look at the tax rates in those countries....I'm not paying for ur healthcare, plain and simple.
-
What you dont understand is that under your type of system, less qualified people will be entering the medical profession and we will have more of these types of problems.
-
Doctors Are The 3rd Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 225,000 Deaths Every Year
In July of 2000 there was a great article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) , one of the best articles ever written in the published literature documenting the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm.
This information was published in JAMA which is the most widely circulated medical periodical in the world.
The author of the article is Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health and she describes how the US health care system may contribute to medical mistakes and poor health.
DEATHS PER YEAR:
12,000 - unnecessary surgery (8)
7,000 - medication errors in hospitals (9)
20,000 - other errors in hospitals (10)
80,000 - infections in hospitals (10)
106,000 - non-error, negative effects of drugs
This is a total of 225,000 deaths per year from a physician's activity, manner, or therapy.
Dr. Starfield reminds us to keep the following in mind when interpreting these numbers:
* 1st, most of the data are derived from studies in hospitalized patients.
* 2nd, these estimates are for deaths only and do not include negative effects that are associated with disability or discomfort.
* 3rd, the estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the IOM report.1
If the higher estimates are used, the deaths would range from 230,000 to 284,000. In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer. Even if these figures are an overestimate, there is a wide margin between these numbers of deaths and the next leading cause of death (cerebrovascular disease).
Another analysis concluded that between 4% and 18% of patients experience negative effects in outpatient settings, with:
* 116 million extra physician visits
* 77 million extra prescriptions
* 17 million emergency department visits
* 8 million hospitalizations
* 3 million long-term admissions
* 199,000 additional deaths
* $77 billion in extra costs
The high cost of the health care system seems to be tolerated under the assumption that better health results from more expensive care.
However, evidence from a few studies indicates that as many as 20% to 30% of patients receive inappropriate care.
According to one study(2), an estimated 44,000 to 98,000 among them die each year as a result of medical errors.
This situation might be tolerated if it resulted in better health, but does it? Of 13 countries in a recent comparison,(3,4) the U. S. ranks an average of 12th (one up from the bottom) for 16 available health indicators. More specifically, the ranking of the United States on several indicators was:
* 13th (last) for low-birth-weight percentages
* 13th for neonatal mortality and infant mortality overall (14)
* 11th for postneonatal mortality
* 13th for years of potential life lost (excluding external causes)
* 11th for life expectancy at 1 year for females, 12th for males
* 10th for life expectancy at 15 years for females, 12th for males
* 10th for life expectancy at 40 years for females, 9th for males
* 7th for life expectancy at 65 years for females, 7th for males
* 3rd for life expectancy at 80 years for females, 3rd for males
* 10th for age-adjusted mortality
The poor performance of the US was recently confirmed by a World Health Organization study, which used different data and ranked the U. S. as 15th among 25 industrialized countries.
Lack of technology is certainly not a contributing factor to the United States 's low ranking.
Among 29 countries, the United States is 2nd only to Japan in the availability of computed tomography (CT) scanners and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) units per million population. (17)
Japan, however, ranks highest on health whereas the United States ranks among the lowest.
-
What you dont understand is that under your type of system, less qualified people will be entering the medical profession and we will have more of these types of problems.
You have ZERO evidence to support your claim.
The requirements would not change in regression. If it was up to me, it would be more difficult to be a licensed doctor than it is now.
-
Ok Adonis..so what. We'll need more doctors but pay will be regulated. Our medical death rates have nothing to do with universal healthcare. Its not going to get better with Uncle Sam in charge.
-
The terms iatrogenesis and iatrogenic artifact refer to adverse effects or complications caused by or resulting from medical treatment or advice. In addition to harmful consequences of actions by physicians, iatrogenesis can also refer to actions by other healthcare professionals, such as psychologists, therapists, pharmacists, nurses, dentists, and others. Iatrogenisis is not restricted to conventional medicine and can also result from complementary and alternative medicine treatments.
latrogenesis is a major phenomenon, and a severe risk to patients. A study carried out in 1981 more than one-third of illnesses of patients in a university hospital were iatrogenic, nearly one in ten were considered major, and in 2% of the patients, the iatrogenic disorder ended in death. Complications were most strongly associated with exposure to drugs and medications.[12] In another study, the main factors leading to problems were inadequate patient evaluation, lack of monitoring and follow-up, and failure to perform necessary tests.[13]
In the United State alone, recorded deaths per year (2000):
* 12,000—unnecessary surgery
* 7,000—medication errors in hospitals
* 20,000—other errors in hospitals
* 80,000—infections in hospitals
* 106,000—non-error, negative effects of drugs
Based on these figures, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer. Also, there is a wide margin between these numbers of deaths and the next leading cause of death (cerebrovascular disease).
This totals 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes. In interpreting these numbers, note the following:
* most data were derived from studies in hospitalized patients.
* the estimates are for deaths only and do not include negative effects that are associated with disability or discomfort.
* the estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the IOM report. If higher estimates are used, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000.[14]
-
Ok Adonis..so what. We'll need more doctors but pay will be regulated. Our medical death rates have nothing to do with universal healthcare. Its not going to get better with Uncle Sam in charge.
Pay is merit based. Treat more patients with positive results, the more you earn.
-
Thats not how its going to work.....u know thats not how the Gov works. This is welfare and a waste of money.
-
Doctors support universal health care: survey
Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:14pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More than half of U.S. doctors now favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday.
The survey suggests that opinions have changed substantially since the last survey in 2002 and as the country debates serious changes to the health care system.
Of more than 2,000 doctors surveyed, 59 percent said they support legislation to establish a national health insurance program, while 32 percent said they opposed it, researchers reported in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.
The 2002 survey found that 49 percent of physicians supported national health insurance and 40 percent opposed it.
"Many claim to speak for physicians and represent their views. We asked doctors directly and found that, contrary to conventional wisdom, most doctors support national health insurance," said Dr. Aaron Carroll of the Indiana University School of Medicine, who led the study.
"As doctors, we find that our patients suffer because of increasing deductibles, co-payments, and restrictions on patient care," said Dr. Ronald Ackermann, who worked on the study with Carroll. "More and more, physicians are turning to national health insurance as a solution to this problem."
PATCHWORK
The United States has no single organized health care system. Instead it relies on a patchwork of insurance provided by the federal and state governments to the elderly, poor, disabled and to some children, along with private insurance and employer-sponsored plans.
Many other countries have national plans, including Britain, France and Canada, and several studies have shown the United States spends more per capita on health care, without achieving better results for patients.
An estimated 47 million people have no insurance coverage at all, meaning they must pay out of their pockets for health care or skip it.
Contenders in the election for president in November all have proposed various changes, but none of the major party candidates has called for a fully national health plan.
Insurance companies, retailers and other employers have joined forces with unions and other interest groups to propose their own plans.
"Across the board, more physicians feel that our fragmented and for-profit insurance system is obstructing good patient care, and a majority now support national insurance as the remedy," Ackermann said in a statement.
The Indiana survey found that 83 percent of psychiatrists, 69 percent of emergency medicine specialists, 65 percent of pediatricians, 64 percent of internists, 60 percent of family physicians and 55 percent of general surgeons favor a national health insurance plan.
The researchers said they believe the survey was representative of the 800,000 U.S. medical doctors.
(Reporting by Maggie Fox; Editing by Will Dunham and Xavier Briand)
-
Thats not how its going to work.....u know thats not how the Gov works. This is welfare and a waste of money.
Wrong.
This is how the NHS works.
Watch.
-
Wrong.
This is how the NHS works.
Watch.
Actually from personal experience, NHS sucks but then again doctors suck in general. Where do you think the adage: doctor heal thyself comes from?
-
Wrong.
This is how the NHS works.
Watch.
I don't care how the UK works...I'm talking the US. In the UK they had to enact a law that mandates wait limits in ER's. The hospitals began to put people in ambulances because that gets around the laws.
-
I don't care how the UK works...I'm talking the US. In the UK they had to enact a law that mandates wait limits in ER's. The hospitals began to put people in ambulances because that gets around the laws.
Where is your evidence of this? Please provide it.
-
Where is my evidence..well TA, we have been discussing this on the pol board for the last 2 years..welcome to the debate. Just because u live in fuzzy lib land and u've never heard the horror stories, I can't help u. Dig through the posts.
-
Where is my evidence..well TA, we have been discussing this on the pol board for the last 2 years..welcome to the debate. Just because u live in fuzzy lib land and u've never heard the horror stories, I can't help u. Dig through the posts.
I am asking for you to provide evidence so that I can establish that it is indeed true and to see if there really is a problem.
So far you have just made the whole thing up. I am open to any evidence you have and would love to see it. If it even exists that is.
Remember, you made this claim. Without any evidence at all it simply falls flat on its face. So again, please provide me with some raw, independent and verifiable data.
-
I would do away with all health insurance companies. Why should there be a middle man between you and your doctor scraping off some of the profit? In a free market, there would be competitive pricing among doctors and better care. This would also relieve employers from the burdon of paying medical premiums for the employees. Insurance companies do nothing but redistribute money from the healthy to the sick while keeping some for themselves. Why not just save your own money for when you need it?
-
Headhunter,
I looked and looked but cannot find anythign about Ambulance rides. Can you please assist me? I am willing to see the evidence if it exists, but so far have come up empty. ???
-
I would do away with all health insurance companies. Why should there be a middle man between you and your doctor scraping off some of the profit? In a free market, there would be competitive pricing among doctors and better care. This would also relieve employers from the burdon of paying medical premiums for the employees. Insurance companies do nothing but redistribute money from the healthy to the sick while keeping some for themselves. Why not just save your own money for when you need it?
Agreed.
-
Agreed.
The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.
-
The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.
Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening. Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.
-
Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening. Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.
Medicare is broke and bankrupting us.
-
Recently in the UK has pledged that if you go to the emergency room, you will be seen by a doctor in less than 4 hours… …Well, not only is that an incredibly long time to wait when you are horribly sick, but the UK hospitals can’t even get some patients in under the 4 hour time limit!!!
.
But of course since the government in the UK PLEDGED the 4 hour (or less) wait, they have to find some way to make sure all patients don’t “wait” longer than four hours for medical care.
.
Well, they found a way… …It is called “PATIENT STACKING” …….Now patient stacking is basically adding another waiting line…. ….What happens is, instead of immediately taking the patient right into the ER when the ambulance arrives to be seen by a doctor, they keep the patient INSIDE the ambulance until they know the patient can be seen by a doctor in under the 4 hour time limit………. .…yes, this is true…the Union that represents the Ambulance workers has stated it happens often.
.
Some patients have had to wait in the ambulance for up to FIVE HOURS before they could go into the hospital where they could end up waiting an additional 4 hours.
.
Now not only is this bad for the patient waiting for care, but it is also bad for other people who NEED the ambulances because they can’t get one, because all the ambulances are parked outside the hospital with sick people inside.
.
The worst example of this waiting problem is the tragic story of Luke Galamore…. Luke was a 16-year-old leukemia patient. His local doctor requested an Immediate transfer to intensive care calling it, quote “EXTREMELY urgent and absolutely critical.” He waited an entire hour, contacted the ambulance services multiple times to request transportation…..the ambulances all were full of patients waiting to get INTO the hospital……… ….Without anyone to come and pick him up, Luke slipped into a coma and died 16 days later.
…….This story here isn’t some extreme horror story or isolated incident… …….Hospitals and ambulance crews reported more than 43,000 ambulance delays of more than 1 hour in the last 15 months alone.
.
In many countries in Europe the average waiting time at hospitals is stretching into HOURS.
In Canada, many of their ER’s are so over crowded and under-staffed that at one hospital the average wait time is nearly 1 DAY (22 hours)…..All over Canada the wait times are even longer than those in Europe…… ….Canada has such a huge problem, that they are forced to send thousands of ER patients down the United States to receive care.
.
With the waiting time in US hospitals mere minutes, maybe it is time we start severely examining socialized medicine.
.
What do you think? Give me your opinion
-
Ambulances are being used as waiting rooms outside hospital emergency units in order to meet Government pledges on treatment times, a union has claimed.
Unison said so-called patient stacking in ambulances was used if they could not be seen in A&E within four hours.
The Department of Health denied the target was causing undue delays.
It said the four-hour limit for A&E waiting starts 15 minutes after the ambulance arrives, regardless of whether a patient has been handed over.
But Tories and Liberal Democrats accused the government of mishandling the NHS.
It happens time and time again. It is an appalling waste of resources.
Mary Maguire
Unison spokeswoman
Shadow health minister Mike Penning said: "Not admitting people to hospital but stacking patients in car parks beggars belief in the 21st century."
Lib Dem health spokesman Norman Lamb said it was evidence of a "shocking systemic failure" in emergency care services.
Turnaround time
The claims come after the Observer reported that some patients were left for up to five hours in an ambulance because A&E refused to admit them until they could seen within the target time.
A study of seven of England's 11 regional ambulance services by the newspaper showed delays of more than an hour were common and that at least 44,000 delays were reported in the last 15 months.
Unison - which represents ambulance staff - said it first raised the issue in 2005.
Spokeswoman Mary Maguire said: "A 16-year-old terminally ill cancer patient died after waiting over an hour for an ambulance to transfer him. Three ambulances could have reached him but they were tied up waiting to hand over patients to A&E."
"It happens time and time again. It is an appalling waste of resources. We should not use ambulances as waiting rooms."
A Department of Health spokesman said: "The turnaround time does not reflect just the time spent by patients in the ambulance before being admitted to accident and emergency time but also time spent cleaning, restocking and readying the ambulance to go back out on the road."
He added: "Four years ago, almost a quarter of patients spent more than four hours in A&E - now, over 98% are seen, diagnosed and treated within four hours of their arrival
-
I don't make anything up......u guys want this shit move. That map u posted has some wonderful countries on it.
-
Headhunter,
I looked and looked but cannot find anythign about Ambulance rides. Can you please assist me? I am willing to see the evidence if it exists, but so far have come up empty. ???
It took me 2 minutes..come on TA..burying ur head in the sand won't make UHC get any better.
-
The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.
Under the current system, a serious health scare like this could wipe away everything. But what if we eliminated all the artificial costs inflated by health insurance premiums, medical malpractice insurance, extra office staff to handle insurance paperwork, care for illegals, etc and set "reasonable" rates for care? So many people are trying to make a profit in the health industry, when it could be a lot simpler and cheaper if it was just patient and doctor.
-
I still can`t find any evidence that this is a widespread and occurring or re-occurring problem among all countries with Universal Healthcare. We have worse patient stacking in the United States at alarming rates in the ER. Improvements certainly could be addressed.
I am examining Norway`s model at the moment and they seem to have the best system.
-
Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening. Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.
That's a LIE, countries with health care DON'T support every treatment and medicine, there is a list of procedures and medicines that are approved and that's it, everything else is your own problem.
Most of the time when anything that is more than a headache happens you need to pay just like in the US so stop lying.
-
I still can`t find any evidence that this is a widespread and occurring or re-occurring problem among all countries with Universal Healthcare. We have worse patient stacking in the United States at alarming rates in the ER. Improvements certainly could be addressed.
I am examining Norway`s model at the moment and they seem to have the best system.
Well TA, I didn't say that it was a problem everywhere, I said it was a problem in the UK, so much of one they had to establish a law, which was then circumvented. There are 4.5 million people in Norway.....there are over 8 million in what is considered New York city. The bus system in Norway wouldnt work for New York let alone a health care system.
-
Well TA, I didn't say that it was a problem everywhere, I said it was a problem in the UK, so much of one they had to establish a law, which was then circumvented. There are 4.5 million people in Norway.....there are over 8 million in what is considered New York city. The bus system in Norway wouldnt work for New York let alone a health care system.
Easily solved. Reduce defense spending which is the obscene majority of our budget.
(http://www.world-business-peace-network.com/uploads/pics/Fed-budget-2008_01.jpg)
Comparison with other countries
The 2005 U.S. military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world's defense spending combined [5] and is over eight times larger than the official military budget of China. (Note that this comparison is done in nominal value US dollars and thus is adjusted for purchasing power parity.) The United States and its close allies are responsible for about two-thirds of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority). In 2007, US military spending was above 1/4 of combined industrial and agricultural production in the USA.
Military discretionary spending accounts for more than half of the U.S. federal discretionary spending, which is all of the U.S. federal government budget that is not appropriated for mandatory spending.[6]
In 2003, the United States spent about 47% of the world's total military spending of US$910.6 billion, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.
The United States spends 4.06% of its GDP on its military (considering only basic Department of Defense budget spending, while complete military spending is higher by more than 50% due to additional DoD funding and funding of other federal military departments), more than France's 2.6% and less than Saudi Arabia's 10%.[7] This is historically low for the United States since it peaked in 1944 at 37.8% of GDP (it reached the lowest point of 3.0% in 1999-2001). Even during the peak of the Vietnam War the percentage reached a high of 9.4% in 1968.[8]
Because the U.S. GDP has risen over time, the military budget can rise in absolute terms while shrinking as a percentage of the GDP. For example, according to the Center for Defense Information, the US outlays for defense as a percentage of federal discretionary spending, has from Fiscal Year 2003 consumed more than half (50.5%) of all such funding and has risen steadily.[9] Discretionary spending accounts for approximately 1/3 of all federal outlays.[10] Therefore, comparing nominal dollar values of military spending over the course of decades fails to account for the impact of inflationary forces, for which military spending as a percentage of GDP does account.
The recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are largely funded through supplementary spending bills outside the Federal Budget, so they are not included in the military budget figures listed above.[11] In addition, the United States has black budget military spending which is not listed as Federal spending and is not included in published military spending figures. Other military-related items, like maintenance of the nuclear arsenal and the money spent by the Veterans Affairs Department, are not included in the official budget. Thus, the total amount spent by the United States on military spending is higher.
-
Well please tell me what U'd like to cut..what. I'm sorry but these moron's who want a hand out can either work harder and get a better job...or punt. What in the Defense budget needs to go. We're condcuting major combat operations in two countries with no end in sight despite Barry's fondest hopes. The military needs to be rebuilt and we're also getting bigger. The threat isn't going away..and oh yeah there are a hell of alot of jobs in the defense industry, a hell of alot.
-
Well please tell me what U'd like to cut..what. I'm sorry but these moron's who want a hand out can either work harder and get a better job...or punt. What in the Defense budget needs to go. We're condcuting major combat operations in two countries with no end in sight despite Barry's fondest hopes. The military needs to be rebuilt and we're also getting bigger. The threat isn't going away..and oh yeah there are a hell of alot of jobs in the defense industry, a hell of alot.
General Dwight Eisnehower said it best in his Farewell address.
-
The Scandinavian systems work because they are tiny countries; they cannot be implemented in the US.
-
Maybe before u morons go and break the one thing that works in this country u ought to look elsewhere. We'll soon be in Mexico and we're gearing up for Africa as we speak. Cut the NEA, cut the department of education and turn it back to the states, cut foreign aid.....look at all the money we just wasted....start cutting programs and bloat. There are programs within the DOD, that will be cut....part of the game, but major cuts results in Trade Tower 1, The USS Cole, Somalia, 911 etc etc etc.
Yeah ok TA...drag out Eisenhower. How did we win the cold war?
Thank u Decide......
-
Maybe before u morons go and break the one thing that works in this country u ought to look elsewhere. We'll soon be in Mexico and we're gearing up for Africa as we speak. Cut the NEA, cut the department of education and turn it back to the states, cut foreign aid.....look at all the money we just wasted....start cutting programs and bloat. There are programs within the DOD, that will be cut....part of the game, but major cuts results in Trade Tower 1, The USS Cole, Somalia, 911 etc etc etc.
Yeah ok TA...drag out Eisenhower. How did we win the cold war?
Thank u Decide......
The one thing that works well is the Military and that happens to be the largest Socialist Entity in the World. :)
-
The Scandinavian systems work because they are tiny countries; they cannot be implemented in the US.
False. We already spend more on healthcare per citizen than Norway, but do not yield nearly the same benefits or standard of care.
-
The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[5][6] A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.[8] However, the U.S. is a leader in medical innovation, with three times higher per-capita spending than Europe
-
(http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost_longlife75.gif)
-
Money Alone Does Not Extend Lives
Despite the wide gaps, higher spending on health care does not necessarily prolong lives. In 2000, theUnited States spent more on health care than any other country in the world: an average of $ 4,500 per person. Switzerland was second highest, at $3,300 or 71% of the US. Nevertheless, average US life expectancy ranks 27th in the world, at 77 years. Many countries achieve higher life expectancy rates with significantly lower spending. The chart below shows the top 30 countries in the world ranked by life expectancy. The red line indicates per-capita health expenditure (right axis), and shows that many countries outperform the US with approximately half the spending.
-
(http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/LEvsSpend2_75.gif)
-
So we see plenty of countries in these graphs, With Universal Healthcare, spending LESS PER CITIZEN than the United States with much better results in Healthcare.
Japan has an awesome Universal Healthcare system and their spending per citizen is well below what the United States spends.
-
Adonis, I think a flat sales tax is definitely something to consider. On the surface (without detailed analysis), it seems like a much better system than we have. 20-22% sounds right.
The pie graph which shows the large defense spending will be changed under Obama because of all the other spending that is occuring.
-
There are so many people who under report taxes. Many contractors and tradesmen get paid under the table. Executives use creative accounting to hide money. Illegals don't pay income, state, SS or local taxes. A national sales tax would make sure that everyone pays.
Nationalized healthcare is perplexing. I find it hard to believe the majority of docs favor it, though I read your study summary. Besides longer wait times, there will be more regulation which will put most private docs out of business. The transfer to electronic medical records can cost a large practice up to 200,000 for a group. Then there are yearly charges to maintain the system and protect the records. Also, there will be rationing of medical services, which is concerning.
Lawyers in this country are out of hand. The cost of medical care in this country is significantly increased by med professionals having to practice defensive medicine, which always increases costs. Malpractice is very high and there is no incentive for lawyers not to take crappy cases. Lawyers shouldn't be paid a % of damages awarded because they inflate damage #s to get paid more. There also needs to be some kind of review before a case goes to court, where an arbitrator or single medically knowledgeable judge pre-screens the case and throws out the ones that are bogus. Docs have to report any lawsuit brought against them regardless of guilt and malpractice goes up. How f'ed up is that? Many physicians left the field in the last 8-10 yrs because of the rising costs and excessive litigaton. This contributes to the shortage of doctors. And despite the historical impression that docs get paid a lot, the average general doctor makes $140,000 per year. Thats after 12-15 yrs of schooling and debt post HS.
Overall, I don't feel nationalized healthcare is completely bad, it really depends on how it is done.
-
There are so many people who under report taxes. Many contractors and tradesmen get paid under the table. Executives use creative accounting to hide money. Illegals don't pay income, state, SS or local taxes. A national sales tax would make sure that everyone pays.
Nationalized healthcare is perplexing. I find it hard to believe the majority of docs favor it, though I read your study summary. Besides longer wait times, there will be more regulation which will put most private docs out of business. The transfer to electronic medical records can cost a large practice up to 200,000 for a group. Then there are yearly charges to maintain the system and protect the records. Also, there will be rationing of medical services, which is concerning.
Lawyers in this country are out of hand. The cost of medical care in this country is significantly increased by med professionals having to practice defensive medicine, which always increases costs. Malpractice is very high and there is no incentive for lawyers not to take crappy cases. Lawyers shouldn't be paid a % of damages awarded because they inflate damage #s to get paid more. There also needs to be some kind of review before a case goes to court, where an arbitrator or single medically knowledgeable judge pre-screens the case and throws out the ones that are bogus. Docs have to report any lawsuit brought against them regardless of guilt and malpractice goes up. How f'ed up is that? Many physicians left the field in the last 8-10 yrs because of the rising costs and excessive litigaton. This contributes to the shortage of doctors. And despite the historical impression that docs get paid a lot, the average general doctor makes $140,000 per year. Thats after 12-15 yrs of schooling and debt post HS.
Overall, I don't feel nationalized healthcare is completely bad, it really depends on how it is done.
The tax code is so complicated there is no human being alive who truly understands it to the T. The fact that so many owe back taxes of all walks of life is a clear testament to this.
Mike Gravel, the best President we never had, explains this all clearly.
-
Yep, the tax code is a mess. A national sales tax seems very reasonable. If that occured, I wouldn't mind some necessities like healthcare to be covered by the gov (as long as it doesn't make the system worse for docs or patients). Also, when you look at all taxes: income, state, local, SS, RITA, property, payroll, etc we are taxed too high IMO.
-
Interesting to note that the United States, which spends THE MOST PER PERSON on Healthcare in the WORLD RIGHT NOW yet ranks 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the World Health Organization WHO study. In fact, the United States Would be saving billions of dollars if they offer Universal Healthcare with a public option. Or if lets say they adopted Norway`s model, the cost of per person would be lower than it is now, thus the overall expenditure is less than it is now. Kind of ruins the population size argument. :P
-
U mean all 4.5 million of them.....a chinese fire drill would work better in Norway. Comparing their system with ours is ridiculous.
-
U mean all 4.5 million of them.....a chinese fire drill would work better in Norway. Comparing their system with ours is ridiculous.
Not at all considering we have More Hospitals and Staff per capita then any country in the world.
-
U mean all 4.5 million of them.....a chinese fire drill would work better in Norway. Comparing their system with ours is ridiculous.
You are arguing with this idiot? He is just about the most ridiculous person on getbig, he is a pathological liar and like to twist the facts.
For example, you both seem to forget to compare the demographic of the populations, life expectency is also affected by crime which the US have much more and the much more obese and stressful people in the US don't help that either.
So taking anything serious from Gaydonis trying to compare Apples to rotten Carrots is just a waste of time.
-
You are arguing with this idiot? He is just about the most ridiculous person on getbig, he is a pathological liar and like to twist the facts.
For example, you both seem to forget to compare the demographic of the populations, life expectency is also affected by crime which the US have much more and the much more obese and stressful people in the US don't help that either.
So taking anything serious from Gaydonis trying to compare Apples to rotten Carrots is just a waste of time.
I almost spit up my lunch.
-
You are arguing with this idiot? He is just about the most ridiculous person on getbig, he is a pathological liar and like to twist the facts.
For example, you both seem to forget to compare the demographic of the populations, life expectency is also affected by crime which the US have much more and the much more obese and stressful people in the US don't help that either.
So taking anything serious from Gaydonis trying to compare Apples to rotten Carrots is just a waste of time.
Not true whatsoever. The CDC uses medical data, not crime statistics as does the National Institute of Health. Using these statistics would be completely useless and worthless. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/
Furthermore, the homicide rate in the United States is 5.7 people per 100,000 which equates to .0057 percent.
Clearly when you crunch the numbers it is a negligible effect and is pointless to use. In other words, more people die from not having healthcare then Homicide. Something to think about.
-
Not true whatsoever. The CDC uses medical data, not crime statistics as does the National Institute of Health. Using these statistics would be completely useless and worthless. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/
Furthermore, the homicide rate in the United States is 5.7 people per 100,000 which equates to .0057 percent.
Clearly when you crunch the numbers it is a negligible effect and is pointless to use. In other words, more people die from not having healthcare then Homicide. Something to think about.
Adonis, you aren't taking into account the unhealthy lifestyles that americans lead vs. other countries. Americans are by far the most unhealthy people on the planet, and this has nothing to do with the hospital industry. Again, you truly are comparing apples to oranges.
-
Adonis, you aren't taking into account the unhealthy lifestyles that americans lead vs. other countries. Americans are by far the most unhealthy people on the planet, and this has nothing to do with the hospital industry. Again, you truly are comparing apples to oranges.
What are you basing this off of? Please provide me with evidence or statistics? Are you just saying this with nothing to go on? No hard data?
-
No ur right...a country of 4.5 million can easily be compared with a country of 350 plus million. U realize that New York City has almost double that alone....
IFBB ur right but I can't resist..he spends tons of time trying to sound smart......
-
No ur right...a country of 4.5 million can easily be compared with a country of 350 plus million. U realize that New York City has almost double that alone....
IFBB ur right but I can't resist..he spends tons of time trying to sound smart......
Again, we spend more per capita on healthcare then any other country in the world. Adopting Norway`s plan would cause us to spend less per capita then we are currently.
Therefore we would spend less overall then currently as it would cost less.
I didn`t think this concept would be that difficult to grasp, but apparently it is.
-
Again, we spend more per capita on healthcare then any other country in the world. Adopting Norway`s plan would cause us to spend less per capita then we are currently.
Therefore we would spend less overall then currently as it would cost less.
I didn`t think this concept would be that difficult to grasp, but apparently it is.
You can spend a billion dollar on a 500lbs dude and he will still die...America is OBESE, get over it.
The father of a friend of mine recently passed away due to an artery exploding...he was obese (not gigantic but you know the normal fat old guy) and he was loaded with cash...doesn't help....
I'm done with your idiocy.
-
We have a much more diverse country...apparently u haven't traveled much. I've actually been to Norway, twice. There aren't alot of folks banging around outside the major cities. Factor that into ur plan. This whole thread is ridiculous.
-
We have a much more diverse country...apparently u haven't traveled much. I've actually been to Norway, twice. There aren't alot of folks banging around outside the major cities. Factor that into ur plan. This whole thread is ridiculous.
Also....low temperatures help last longer :P
-
We have a much more diverse country...apparently u haven't traveled much. I've actually been to Norway, twice. There aren't alot of folks banging around outside the major cities. Factor that into ur plan. This whole thread is ridiculous.
Comparing the diversity of a country regarding its citizens makes zero sense when factoring per capita costs. The model is adjusted to the population.
-
Comparing the diversity of a country regarding its citizens makes zero sense when factoring per capita costs. The model is adjusted to the population.
So spending the same amount of money on one of the AIDS/Malaria/etc infested African countries and Norway will produce the same results?
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
-
Comparing the diversity of a country regarding its citizens makes zero sense when factoring per capita costs. The model is adjusted to the population.
Ok do i need to spell this out...it's much cheaper to treat 4.5 million people crowed into a few cities..as opposed to 350 plus million spread across.....forget it. Move to Norway...u'll love it.
-
Ok do i need to spell this out...it's much cheaper to treat 4.5 million people crowed into a few cities..as opposed to 350 plus million spread across.....forget it. Move to Norway...u'll love it.
That makes zero sense given the number of Hospitals and medical staff per capita, per city, per region in America.
-
Ok do i need to spell this out...it's much cheaper to treat 4.5 million people crowed into a few cities..as opposed to 350 plus million spread across.....forget it. Move to Norway...u'll love it.
Please notice something about posters such as Gaydonis and 240, when they are faced with logical thinking , like the question in my reply above yours, they simply ignore and keep spouting the same shit.
I can give him a million reasons and examples and he will ignore them all, notice that when he replied to my post he only referred to the crime statistics (which I'm not sure if they are in the statistics or not, but that wasn't the point of the post).
Hence...he is a fucking moron who can't handle me :-* Not the first time he and his kind stfu when someone with a little sense start to put them on the spot.
-
We both need to stop....but it feels so good sparing with this idiot. He never heard of ER packing and assumed I made it up. Until of course I provided proof. he then went into some bs about it not being widespread. Gee TA, if the BBC is reporting on it, based on law that the Brits had to enact, I'd say its widespread enough.
-
We both need to stop....but it feels so good sparing with this idiot. He never heard of ER packing and assumed I made it up. Until of course I provided proof. he then went into some bs about it not being widespread. Gee TA, if the BBC is reporting on it, based on law that the Brits had to enact, I'd say its widespread enough.
Don't forget that he still owe this board a video of him deadlifting 1000lbsX1000reps....the thing is...since he promised to post it he posted many videos and photos of himself...yet he can't find time to post that.
He also spread family pictures of himself with his sister and try to make it seem as if she is his girlfriend.
He come here to post propaganda and BS.
Notice that I'm not debating him, I'm humiliating him since that is the only thing such a low life deserves ;D
-
We both need to stop....but it feels so good sparing with this idiot. He never heard of ER packing and assumed I made it up. Until of course I provided proof. he then went into some bs about it not being widespread. Gee TA, if the BBC is reporting on it, based on law that the Brits had to enact, I'd say its widespread enough.
The problem so far is fixed. Just like anything else, it is not all or nothing. When a problem arises it can be fixed. I think the wise thing to do is examine all models of healthcare.
-
Yeah but I don't want to run him off either...
TA nobody is saying we shouldn't examine all models. But when it takes less then 5 min to dismiss the model, we need to look elsewhere.
-
Yeah but I don't want to run him off either...
TA nobody is saying we shouldn't examine all models. But when it takes less then 5 min to dismiss the model, we need to look elsewhere.
But insofar as the evidence is concerned, the Norwegian model has yet to be dismissed when given your argument of comparison of cost given that we already spend more than Norweigans per capita, given that if we adopt the the Norwegian model for instance, we lower the cost, given that we have more Hospitals per Capita, Hospitals per square Mile, Hospitals per region than Norway as to service our population. So based on all available evidence, your dismissal fails. Simple as that. If there are any other objections or reasons for dismissal I would love for them to be listed.
-
But insofar as the evidence is concerned, the Norwegian model has yet to be dismissed when given your argument of comparison of cost given that we already spend more than Norweigans per capita, given that if we adopt the the Norwegian model for instance, we lower the cost, given that we have more Hospitals per Capita, Hospitals per square Mile, Hospitals per region than Norway as to service our population. So based on all available evidence, your dismissal fails. Simple as that. If there are any other objections or reasons for dismissal I would love for them to be listed.
They dont have legions of illegals and sub-culture savages like we have here who will rush every emergency room and clinic for free stuff.
-
They dont have legions of illegals and sub-culture savages like we have here who will rush every emergency room and clinic for free stuff.
That does not make a difference since they already using the current medical system. The main difference with Universal Healthcare is that the doctors and hospitals can be compensated rather than risking fitting them bill themselves or taking a loss.
Also you may want to note:
US report - illegal immigrants not a burden to health care system
15 December 2006
For concise and recent immigration information watch our news.
A new report released last month in the United States concludes that illegal immigrants do not pose a disproportionate burden upon the U.S. health care system, contrary to increasingly strong rhetoric on the subject over the past two years.
In response to extremely heated political debate over immigration reform, the study was conducted to determine if illegal immigrants were, in fact, contributing to the decline of U.S. health care services.
Adult illegal immigrants tend to be younger and healthier than their legal-resident counterparts, resulting in relatively low use of health care services, according to the study. This directly contradicts many assertions repeatedly made by right-wing politicians and pundits in a strong push to impose harsh immigration reform efforts through various American governmental bodies.
Undocumented adults account for about $6.4 billion a year in national health care expenses, $1.1 billion of which is paid from public funds, according to the study by the Rand Corp., a conservative-leaning think tank. The publicly funded portion represents 1.25% of the total $88 billion in government funds spent on health care for adults other than seniors during 2000.
For comparison, the total cost of upgrades to the wall being constructed on the Mexico-United States border is currently expected to be between $30 and $36 billion and take most of the next decade.
The calculation of the cost of financing illegal immigrant health care was made by extrapolating data collected in 2000 and 2001 for a study of about 2,400 immigrants in Los Angeles County. The study did not account for what portion of the health services received that illegal immigrants paid for. Estimating the amount of health care money spent on undocumented immigrants is difficult because federal law prohibits hospital staff from asking a patient's immigration status.
Rand researchers chose to rely on the 5-year-old Los Angeles study because it contained detailed information on participants' legal or visa status, along with their health status, how much health care they used and whether they had any insurance coverage.
Of the 664 illegal immigrants in the study, 68% were uninsured. Only 19% had a chronic medical condition, compared with 38 percent of American-born adults, the study reported. About 58% of illegal immigrants reported visiting a doctor in the previous year, while 80% of adults born in the country had seen a physician.
About 11% of undocumented immigrants in the study had been hospitalized in the prior year, compared with 13% of the native-born population. Smith said undocumented women have relatively high rates of hospitalization due to childbirth.
"The public cost of immigration is not in health care," said James Smith, a senior economist at Rand and one of the study's authors. In context, the quote was specifically referring to illegal immigration in the U.S., especially of Latino immigrants from Central America and Mexico.
Health care providers that focus on low-income and immigrant populations agreed with the study's findings.
"Immigrants in general tend to be young, working people and they tend to be healthy," said Ralph Silber, executive director of the Alameda Health Consortium, an association of eight nonprofit community health centers. "People who are incredibly sick tend not to be crossing borders, and certainly not crossing borders illegally."
Still, Silber said, he's concerned about undocumented adults who avoid routine health care because of the cost or fear that their status may be discovered.
Illegal immigrants might contribute to crowded emergency rooms and hospitals' financial losses, but they are not the driving factor, said Jan Emerson, spokeswoman for the California Hospital Association.
"It is unfair for the public to place the blame for all of societal ills -- in this case, hospital ills -- on undocumented or illegal immigrants," she said, adding that the vast majority of the country's 46 million uninsured people are native-born or legal residents. "If we were to resolve the issue, we still have major problems with our health care system."
Health care reform is at least as controversial as immigration reform in the United States. For more than two decades there has been a push to make a universal health care system of some sort, similar to that enjoyed in Canada and the United Kingdom.
It is estimated that approximately 43 to 48 million Americans are currently without insurance, something that is increasingly being viewed as a crisis. Many special interests are pushing their personal rhetoric to explain the situation or to place blame, making credible, factual studies difficult to come by.
-
You just lost all credibility. There is a hospital right near me that closed last year because of illegals who refused to pay.
Go post your trash somewhere else. anyone with an ounce of sense know what a drain these vermin are.
-
$1.1 billion of which is paid from public funds...............that s my money. Thats not their money, thats my fucking money. They can starve, drop dead, move or whatever...but thats my money. They should go back to whatever 3rd world shithole they're from and save us 1 billion.
-
You just lost all credibility. There is a hospital right near me that closed last year because of illegals who refused to pay.
Go post your trash somewhere else. anyone with an ounce of sense know what a drain these vermin are.
What was the hospitals name and location. I would like to read about this IF it is true. Can you provide me with more information if it exists?
-
What was the hospitals name and location. I would like to read about this IF it is true. Can you provide me with more information if it exists?
United Hospital in Port Chester, NY. Look it up.
-
$1.1 billion of which is paid from public funds...............that s my money. Thats not their money, thats my fucking money. They can starve, drop dead, move or whatever...but thats my money. They should go back to whatever 3rd world shithole they're from and save us 1 billion.
More money is wasted by people who abuse their current insurance policy.
-
More money is wasted by people who abuse their current insurance policy.
Illegal invaders are a plague. Chandra Levy anyone?????
-
United Hospital in Port Chester, NY. Look it up.
Illegal Immigrants had NOTHING to do with the closing of the hospital.
I found a 4 page article detailing the whole thing. Reasonable and Customary reimbursement rates from Insurance companies and a DECLINE in Hospitalizations caused the closing.
Check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/nyregion/04united.html
But while residents and employees may have been surprised by the seeming suddenness of the decision, representatives of the hospital industry were not. For years, hospitals in New York State have complained that they are teetering on the edge financially because of a general decline in hospitalizations combined with sharply rising costs and stagnant reimbursement rates.
And in the last two years, the doom-and-gloom predictions have started to come true, as a dozen hospitals across the state have shut their doors for good.
What has changed, however, is the reaction to the closings. There was a time when even rumblings of a possible hospital closing set off fierce and prolonged community and political battles. But these days, with so many hospitals in financial trouble, the hospital industry, its unions and patient advocates are conceding that shrinkage is not only inevitable but in some cases healthy.
"I get paid dues for every hospital that stays open," said Daniel Sisto, president of the Healthcare Association of New York State, a membership organization representing 550 hospitals, nursing homes and health care agencies. "But the reality is that these closings by and large have not created major havoc in the community."
"What I see happening in many parts of the state is that where we have excess capacity, the boards of trustees have such a vested interest in maintaining their own hospital that there might be two hospitals in a town that only needs one. Both hospitals continue to erode, and they each hang on well past the point that closure by either one would benefit the community."
That is the argument that officials in New York State have long been making. Looking to save money on health care, they have portrayed the network of hospitals stretching from Brooklyn to Buffalo as costly and bloated, with too many beds over all. That assessment was reiterated last fall in a report commissioned by Gov. George E. Pataki urging the state to stop pumping money into failing hospitals. Mr. Pataki plans to name a commission to identify hospitals to close.
But even as hospitals throughout New York State have reported various degrees of distress - a survey in 2003 by a national health industry group and a financial services company found that hospitals in New York State were by far the nation's weakest financially - closings were few through most of the 1980's and 1990's.
-
"What I see happening in many parts of the state is that where we have excess capacity, the boards of trustees have such a vested interest in maintaining their own hospital that there might be two hospitals in a town that only needs one. Both hospitals continue to erode, and they each hang on well past the point that closure by either one would benefit the community."
That is the argument that officials in New York State have long been making. Looking to save money on health care, they have portrayed the network of hospitals stretching from Brooklyn to Buffalo as costly and bloated, with too many beds over all. That assessment was reiterated last fall in a report commissioned by Gov. George E. Pataki urging the state to stop pumping money into failing hospitals. Mr. Pataki plans to name a commission to identify hospitals to close.
-
The hospital, unable to invest in the latest technology or renovate its aging center, had trouble recruiting new doctors. It managed to raise $4 million for a new emergency room, but the board canceled the plan because the rest of the hospital was so antiquated that it could not support an updated emergency room.
"There's a decline in reimbursements, an increased need for equipment, aging buildings," said Mr. Dionne, United's president, who is also a principal of Kurron Shares of America, a hospital management company on Long Island hired by United's board in September. "And the most telling decline was that patients were simply choosing other places to go for their emergency care. In urban high-growth areas, that's a red flag for other problems."
-
Illegal Immigrants had NOTHING to do with the closing of the hospital.
I found a 4 page article detailing the whole thing. Reasonable and Customary reimbursement rates from Insurance companies and a DECLINE in Hospitalizations caused the closing.
Check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/nyregion/04united.html
But while residents and employees may have been surprised by the seeming suddenness of the decision, representatives of the hospital industry were not. For years, hospitals in New York State have complained that they are teetering on the edge financially because of a general decline in hospitalizations combined with sharply rising costs and stagnant reimbursement rates.
And in the last two years, the doom-and-gloom predictions have started to come true, as a dozen hospitals across the state have shut their doors for good.
What has changed, however, is the reaction to the closings. There was a time when even rumblings of a possible hospital closing set off fierce and prolonged community and political battles. But these days, with so many hospitals in financial trouble, the hospital industry, its unions and patient advocates are conceding that shrinkage is not only inevitable but in some cases healthy.
"I get paid dues for every hospital that stays open," said Daniel Sisto, president of the Healthcare Association of New York State, a membership organization representing 550 hospitals, nursing homes and health care agencies. "But the reality is that these closings by and large have not created major havoc in the community."
"What I see happening in many parts of the state is that where we have excess capacity, the boards of trustees have such a vested interest in maintaining their own hospital that there might be two hospitals in a town that only needs one. Both hospitals continue to erode, and they each hang on well past the point that closure by either one would benefit the community."
That is the argument that officials in New York State have long been making. Looking to save money on health care, they have portrayed the network of hospitals stretching from Brooklyn to Buffalo as costly and bloated, with too many beds over all. That assessment was reiterated last fall in a report commissioned by Gov. George E. Pataki urging the state to stop pumping money into failing hospitals. Mr. Pataki plans to name a commission to identify hospitals to close.
But even as hospitals throughout New York State have reported various degrees of distress - a survey in 2003 by a national health industry group and a financial services company found that hospitals in New York State were by far the nation's weakest financially - closings were few through most of the 1980's and 1990's.
"Stagnant reimbursements rates" in another word for money not coming in. The area itself is all illegal alien hispanics who dont pay.
-
"Stagnant reimbursements rates" in another word for money not coming in. The area itself is all illegal alien hispanics who dont pay.
Wrong. That has to do with insurance medical boards determining what is Reasonable and Customary for reimbursement per operation or treatment.
-
"What I see happening in many parts of the state is that where we have excess capacity, the boards of trustees have such a vested interest in maintaining their own hospital that there might be two hospitals in a town that only needs one. Both hospitals continue to erode, and they each hang on well past the point that closure by either one would benefit the community."
That is the argument that officials in New York State have long been making. Looking to save money on health care, they have portrayed the network of hospitals stretching from Brooklyn to Buffalo as costly and bloated, with too many beds over all. That assessment was reiterated last fall in a report commissioned by Gov. George E. Pataki urging the state to stop pumping money into failing hospitals. Mr. Pataki plans to name a commission to identify hospitals to close.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E6DD103DF931A25753C1A96E9C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Check this out. the hospitals are losing millions because if illegals.
-
Wrong. That has to do with insurance medical boards determining what is Reasonable and Customary for reimbursement per operation or treatment.
Wrong!!..Do u work in the medical field...do u work in insurance or are u armed only with what the net is tells u. The guy lives there....I think he knows better then u do.
-
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E6DD103DF931A25753C1A96E9C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Check this out. the hospitals are losing millions because if illegals.
Universal Healthcare takes care of this very problem as doctors and hospitals are then compensated.
Also, in that article it is not because they are illegal immigrants, it is because they do not have insurance.
Hospital Association estimated its 29 hospitals spent $93.3 million in 2006 compared with $78 million four years before on uncompensated care, although officials did not attribute the huge increase to illegal immigrants.
-
Wrong!!..Do u work in the medical field...do u work in insurance or are u armed only with what the net is tells u. The guy lives there....I think he knows better then u do.
Years ago I worked in the medical insurance industry.
-
Wrong!!..Do u work in the medical field...do u work in insurance or are u armed only with what the net is tells u. The guy lives there....I think he knows better then u do.
I live ten minutes from Port Chester. Do a little research on the place, it is a sanctuary city and filled with illegal aliens. The place resembles Mexico City more than anything.
I posted an article which said that teh hosdital and greenwich hospital was losing millions a year to these free loaders. the hospital called it "charity care".
-
Years ago I worked in the medical insurance industry.
Doing what.....how old are u?
-
Universal Healthcare takes care of this very problem as doctors and hospitals are then compensated.
Also, in that article it is not because they are illegal immigrants, it is because they do not have insurance.
Hospital Association estimated its 29 hospitals spent $93.3 million in 2006 compared with $78 million four years before on uncompensated care, although officials did not attribute the huge increase to illegal immigrants.
Dude, you are brain dead.
-
Years ago I worked in the medical insurance industry.
No you didn't, you never worked in your life. Just like you never deadlifted your retarded claims.
You're a lying machine....fucking pitiful.
-
He's what 24-26...years ago. ::)
-
I live ten minutes from Port Chester. Do a little research on the place, it is a sanctuary city and filled with illegal aliens. The place resembles Mexico City more than anything.
I posted an article which said that teh hosdital and greenwich hospital was losing millions a year to these free loaders. the hospital called it "charity care".
You posted an article that states they are losing 7-8 million dollars, ( A tiny, tiny amount when considering a hospitals revenue and budget costs) due to Lack of medical Insurance. Put it this way, MUCH MUCH MUCH more money is lost by misdiagnosis Illegal or not, THE PROBLEM is lack of coverage.
-
You posted an article that states they are losing 7-8 million dollars, ( A tiny, tiny amount when considering a hospitals revenue and budget costs) due to Lack of medical Insurance. Put it this way, MUCH MUCH MUCH more money is lost by misdiagnosis Illegal or not, THE PROBLEM is lack of coverage.
Only in your liberal dream world is it ok for a business to lose 60,000 a week and up because of illegal aliens.
-
I think u miss the entire point..I'm not paying for ur medical coverage...I'm not paying for some mexican's coverage...I'll pay my bills based on what I buy or want. Uncle Sam has no business getting into this. If u really want this kind of coverage u can move. National healthcare is a joke. If it was so woinderful Barry O would be pushing for it out of the gate, unlike this gradual bs that he's pushing.
-
I think u miss the entire point..I'm not paying for ur medical coverage...I'm not paying for some mexican's coverage...I'll pay my bills based on what I buy or want. Uncle Sam has no business getting into this. If u really want this kind of coverage u can move. National healthcare is a joke. If it was so woinderful Barry O would be pushing for it out of the gate, unlike this gradual bs that he's pushing.
Not true at all. He is pushing for Universal Healthcare. IT works like this- The same system that is in place now remains, but there is an additional Public option available for anyone if they want to take it. IT will operate like Medicare. Therefore "the free market" will be free to decide. Insurance companies then will decide how they want to compete with the Medicare option as they do now for Seniors.
Here is the plan. Please watch so you will be able to know what his proposal is:
-
Ah TA let me make this simple.....employers will drop private healthcare plans because the Gov will pick up the employees'. These plans will mostly dry up and in 4-5 years we have a broken UK style healthcare system that I'm paying for. I understand the argument, I think i understand it better then u. Its amazing how u phrase these condescending posts like the rest of us are idiots and ur the only one who really knows whats going on.
-
Modeling anything off of Norway is not a good idea.
Since they make most of their money off of a government controlled oil company.
Socialism only works when you have a way to make up for the spending increases that can't be increased through taxes.
Like natural resources.
The US imports more than it exports and will for the foreseeable future.
Socialism will kill the US because there is nothing to makeup for the increased spending except tax increases, which limits the productivity of the country.
-
Modeling anything off of Norway is not a good idea.
Since they make most of their money off of a government controlled oil company.
Socialism only works when you have a way to make up for the spending increases that can't be increased through taxes.
Like natural resources.
The US imports more than it exports and will for the foreseeable future.
Socialism will kill the US because there is nothing to makeup for the increased spending except tax increases, which limits the productivity of the country.
Our GDP still is pretty strong.
-
Our GDP still is pretty strong.
America is an importing nation nothing will change that.
This is due the massive amount of oil imports the US requires and the fact that America won't deal with China pegging its currency to the US.
http://www.epi.org/analysis_and_opinion/entry/getting_tough_with_china/
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/category/topicarticle.aspx?feed=PR&Date=20090303&ID=9662710&topic=TOPIC_ECONOMIC_INDICATORS&isub=3
What this means is that the US has to look at other ways of making money. This use to be accomplished through innovation.
Socialism does not help with innovation.
Which is what America needs for health care delivery.
-
Ah TA let me make this simple.....employers will drop private healthcare plans because the Gov will pick up the employees'. These plans will mostly dry up and in 4-5 years we have a broken UK style healthcare system that I'm paying for. I understand the argument, I think i understand it better then u. Its amazing how u phrase these condescending posts like the rest of us are idiots and ur the only one who really knows whats going on.
What I am failing to grasp is the fact that you are willing to give your life for an illegal immigrant or even for the Iraqi government to be stable if that is the mission at hand, but when it comes to your money, you draw the line. It gets even stranger as your taxes will not be raised one dime, (you in fact get a tax cut as you surely do not make over 250 grand in the military) therefore you aren`t being asked to pay any more than you are paying now. Simply money that is already there is going to be used for a program that is going to benefit the entire Nation morally as well as economically via healthy workers and lowered health costs. You should investigate the link between health and productivity in nations per capita.
Also, on a side note. You admit that you are less altruistic than I am, less caring of others and less concerned for complete strangers welfare and well being, yet I am the atheist and you are the Catholic. Atheists always tend to have empathy as there are no barriers of hatred built up. :)
Looks like your religious beliefs are no where near my altruism.
-
What I am failing to grasp is the fact that you are willing to give your life for an illegal immigrant or even for the Iraqi government to be stable if that is the mission at hand, but when it comes to your money, you draw the line. It gets even stranger as your taxes will not be raised one dime, (you in fact get a tax cut as you surely do not make over 250 grand in the military) therefore you aren`t being asked to pay any more than you are paying now. Simply money that is already there is going to be used for a program that is going to benefit the entire Nation morally as well as economically via healthy workers and lowered health costs. You should investigate the link between health and productivity in nations per capita.
Also, on a side note. You admit that you are less altruistic than I am, less caring of others and less concerned for complete strangers welfare and well being, yet I am the atheist and you are the Catholic. Atheists always tend to have empathy as there are no barriers of hatred built up. :)
Looks like your religious beliefs are no where near my altruism.
FYI
www.minhac.es/ief/Publicaciones/Revistas/Hacienda%20Publica/
165/165_charitable.pdf
COUNTRY................P ER CAP. GIVING
Spain................... .......122
Belgium................. .......120
U.K..................... .......117
Netherlands............. .......110
Ireland................. .......100
France.................. ........74
Finland................. ........70
Austria................. ........50
Germany................. ........39
Hungary................. ........32
Slovakia................ ........25
Czech Republic................ ..25
Romania................. .........5
U.S..................... .......278
(NOTE: amounts given are in Euros)
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=1131
ROCHESTER, N.Y. and LONDON – December 20, 2006 – A Financial Times (FT)/Harris Poll conducted among adults in the United States and in five European countries (France, Italy, Germany, Great Britain and Spain) shows that Americans are more likely than Europeans to believe in any form of God or Supreme Being (73%). Of the European adults surveyed, Italians are the most likely to express this belief (62%) and, in contrast, the French are the least likely (27%).
Among those adults who stated they do have religious beliefs, almost two-thirds (62%) of Italians say they have the same religious beliefs as both their parents. In stark contrast, just under two in five (39%) British adults share the same religious beliefs as either of their parents. In the U.S. about half (48%) of adults who stated they have religious beliefs say they share the same as both of their parents.
This FT/Harris Poll was conducted online by Harris Interactive® among a total of 12,507 adults (aged 16 and over), within France (2,134); Germany (2,127); Great Britain (2,090); Spain (1,991); the United States (2,078), and Italy (2,087), aged 18 and over, between 30th November and 15th December 2006.
-
Adonis, illegals (and people with no insurance who don't pay ER bills) are a huge drain on the system financially. If you deny this, you have no idea of how much hospitals absorb these costs. But...this wouldn't be worse under nationalized healthcare because these people would still receive services. The key is to remove illegal aliens, prevent them from using services, or help them become citizens and pay taxes to support these services. In an ER, you cannot deny care to anyone under the current system.
-
Just to remind everyone again, its not 250K per individual, its per family (was mentioned in Adonis' post). Thats a HUGE difference, particularly for married couples. Two people work in most households.
For necessary funding for all of Obama's proposals, taxes will be raised on more than just families making 250K...the numbers do not add up. Most of us will pay for these programs. Thats why its important to slow down and keep things as lean as possible. Thats my main problem with Obama right now, he is using the recession to push through all sorts of democratic programs funded from money that we absolutely don't have. Its very likely we will eventually see responsive inflation, a massive debt increase, and more taxes on the middle and upper classes.
-
FYI
www.minhac.es/ief/Publicaciones/Revistas/Hacienda%20Publica/
165/165_charitable.pdf
COUNTRY................P ER CAP. GIVING
Spain................... .......122
Belgium................. .......120
U.K..................... .......117
Netherlands............. .......110
Ireland................. .......100
France.................. ........74
Finland................. ........70
Austria................. ........50
Germany................. ........39
Hungary................. ........32
Slovakia................ ........25
Czech Republic................ ..25
Romania................. .........5
U.S..................... .......278
(NOTE: amounts given are in Euros)
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=1131
ROCHESTER, N.Y. and LONDON – December 20, 2006 – A Financial Times (FT)/Harris Poll conducted among adults in the United States and in five European countries (France, Italy, Germany, Great Britain and Spain) shows that Americans are more likely than Europeans to believe in any form of God or Supreme Being (73%). Of the European adults surveyed, Italians are the most likely to express this belief (62%) and, in contrast, the French are the least likely (27%).
Among those adults who stated they do have religious beliefs, almost two-thirds (62%) of Italians say they have the same religious beliefs as both their parents. In stark contrast, just under two in five (39%) British adults share the same religious beliefs as either of their parents. In the U.S. about half (48%) of adults who stated they have religious beliefs say they share the same as both of their parents.
This FT/Harris Poll was conducted online by Harris Interactive® among a total of 12,507 adults (aged 16 and over), within France (2,134); Germany (2,127); Great Britain (2,090); Spain (1,991); the United States (2,078), and Italy (2,087), aged 18 and over, between 30th November and 15th December 2006.
Not a very good representative statistic as there are many factors in regards to charity such as Standard of Living. Higher standards of Living equate to to larger charitable donations for instance. Also, there is a disproportionate amount of charitable donations among socioeconomic lines meaning, the poor who also may be the most religious, give less than the wealthy.
With that said, here are the 50 most charitable individuals in the United States. Surprise, Surprise the majority are Atheists or Agnostics.
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual/
Special Report: Philanthropy
Slide show: Top Givers and Their Causes
Table: Top Corporate Cash Givers
The 50 Most Generous Philanthropists
How We Create The List: To measure what donors have given or pledged over the past five years, a team of reporters spends months conducting interviews and scouring databases, news reports, and foundation filings. For consistency, we count pledges in full at the time they're announced, discounting only those that are formally revoked. If a gift is in stock, we value it at the time it's announced. To avoid double-counting, the survey counts gifts to foundations at the time they're given and not when the money flows out of foundations.
Click column heading once to reorder from highest to lowest. Click twice to reorder from lowest to highest.
Rank
Name
Background
2003-07 GIVEN
OR PLEDGED (MILLIONS)
Causes
ESTIMATED LIFETIME
GIVING* (MILLIONS)
NET WORTH**
(MILLIONS)
GIVING AS A %
OF NET WORTH
1 Warren Buffett Berkshire Hathaway CEO 40,650 Health, education, humanitarian causes 40,780 52,000 78
2 Bill and Melinda Gates Microsoft co-founder 3,519 Global health and development, education 28,144 59,000 48
3 George Kaiser Oil and gas, banking, real estate 2,271 Poverty in Oklahoma 2,522 11,000 23
4 George Soros Investor 2,109 Open and democratic societies 6,401 8,800 73
5 Gordon and Betty Moore Intel co-founder 2,067 Environment, science, San Fran. Bay area 7,404 4,500 165
6 Walton Family Family of Wal-Mart founder 1,475 Education 2,015 82,500 2
7 Herbert and Marion Sandler Golden West co-founders 1,368 Medical research, education, social reform 1,389 2,400 58
8 Eli and Edythe Broad SunAmerica, KB Home founder 1,216 Public educ., arts, scientific and medical research 2,286 7,000 33
9 Donald Bren Real estate developer 915 Education, conservation, research 1,326 13,000 10
10 Jon Huntsman Huntsman chairman 800 Cancer, business education 1,233 1,900 65
11 Bernard Osher Banking, investments 780 Arts, education, social services 805 900 89
12 Alfred Mann Medical devices 698 Biomedical education and research 1,735 2,200 79
13 Michael and Susan Dell Dell founder 674 Children's health, education 1,200 17,200 7
14 Michael Bloomberg Bloomberg founder, NYC mayor 584 Health, education, arts, social services 1,045 11,500 9
15 David Rockefeller Standard Oil heir, banking 562 Biomed research, global development, arts 937 2,700 35
16 Jeff Skoll Founding president of eBay 560 Social entrepreneurs 744 3,500 21
17 T. Denny Sanford Banking and credit cards 559 Science education, medical research 559 2,800 20
18 Veronica Atkins Widow of Dr. Robert Atkins 519 Eradication of obesity and diabetes 519 60 865
19 John Templeton Investor 514 Science about life's big questions 1,003 2,000 50
20 Robert Wilson Investor 508 Environment 541 600 90
21 Pierre and Pam Omidyar eBay chairman and founder 493 Unleashing human potential 657 8,900 7
22 T. Boone Pickens Energy and investing 445 Higher education and athletics, health 445 3,000 15
23 Sandy and Joan Weill Former Citigroup chairman, CEO 435 Education, healthcare, arts, social causes 800 1,800 44
24 John Kluge Metromedia founder 401 Library of Congress, higher education 751 9,500 8
25 Ted Turner CNN founder 389 Environment, global security 1,500 2,300 65
26 Lorry Lokey Business Wire founder, chairman 373 Education, libraries, and culture 415 0 0
27 Kirk Kerkorian** Investor 365 Humanitarian and Armenian causes 696 18,000 4
28 Shelby White** Widow of investor Leon Levy 365 Ancient studies, arts, humanities 525 600 88
29 David Koch Koch Industries EVP 364 Medical care, cancer, education 500 17,000 3
30 Bernard Marcus Home Depot co-founder 351 Jewish causes, health, free enterprise, children 700 2,000 35
31 Irwin and Joan Jacobs Qualcomm co-founder 330 Education, arts 627 1,600 39
32 Frank and Jane Batten Landmark Comm. founder 314 Education, early childhood development 510 2,000 26
33 Robert Meyerhoff Real estate developer 300 Arts, higher education 305 0 0
34 Paul Allen Microsoft co-founder 283 Arts, health/human services, science 937 16,800 6
35 Oprah Winfrey Harpo chairman 263 Education; women, children, and families 303 2,500 12
36 Robert Day Trust Company of the West CEO 262 Education, health and arts 305 1,600 19
37 Ted and Vada Stanley MBI founder 254 Mental illness, crisis relief 568 0 0
38 David and Cheryl Duffield PeopleSoft co-founder 244 Animals, humane society, education 331 1,200 28
39 James Simons Investor 243 Math, science, education, autism 267 5,500 5
40 Dan Duncan and family Enterprise Products Ptnrs. co-founder 230 Medical research, education, youth 300 8,200 4
41 Frances Comer Widow of Lands' End founder 228 Environment, education, youth 268 1,000 27
42 Ira and Mary Lou Fulton Fulton Homes CEO 224 Higher education, community 266 410 65
43 Dawn Greene Widow of lawyer Jerome Greene 200 Education, medicine, arts 260 0 0
44 Marguerite Hoffman Widow of investor Robert Hoffman 199 Dallas arts and social services, science 208 0 0
45 George Lucas Lucasfilm founder 196 Education, arts, health, civil rights 213 3,900 5
46 Larry Ellison Oracle CEO 193 Research on aging and diseases 808 26,000 3
47 Thomas Siebel Siebel Systems founder 189 Education, meth prevention, community 386 1,900 20
48 Peter Lewis Progressive chairman 188 Arts, environment, youth, social reform 426 0 0
49 Leo and Kay Drey Schram Glass heir, silviculture 180 Conservation 180 0 0
50 Haim and Cheryl Saban Saban Capital Group CEO, Chairman 176 Children's healthcare, U.S. and Israeli charities 195 3,400 6
*Based on public records and interviews with donors
-
Also consider how much Atheists donate to charity when they are estimated to be 10 percent or less of the population in the United States vs Christians who are estimated at 90 percent.
Bill Gates and George Soros and Warren Buffet are at the top! Good Atheists!
-
Good athiests and good Americans.
I believe if we increase the already progressive income tax too high, the upper middle class and rich won't give as much to charity. There is a huge difference in choosing to give to a cause that is worthy to you and being forced to give 50+% of your wages to benefit others and the government.
-
The one thing that works well is the Military and that happens to be the largest Socialist Entity in the World. :)
Never known of an all-volunteer military in a socialist society.
The military doesn't work well. It works because it has to. The military is extremely inefficient, but necessary. It is also falls under the US Constitution of providing for the common defense of the nation.
I know, I know, but the federalists didn't want a standing army. True, very true and I sometimes wonder about that, but I fear these socialist giveaway programs "something for nothing BS" more than the military. Besides, they earn their paycheck.
When was the last time you did anything out of a concept of service, instead of asking the government for health care and free school?
-
Bump for 333336666
-
Never known of an all-volunteer military in a socialist society.
The military doesn't work well. It works because it has to. The military is extremely inefficient, but necessary. It is also falls under the US Constitution of providing for the common defense of the nation.
I know, I know, but the federalists didn't want a standing army. True, very true and I sometimes wonder about that, but I fear these socialist giveaway programs "something for nothing BS" more than the military. Besides, they earn their paycheck.
When was the last time you did anything out of a concept of service, instead of asking the government for health care and free school?
-
Bump for 333336666
The politicians will never go for a national sales tax.
-
uh, you have it backwards. The Federalists were imperialists and wanted an Army and a Large Navy ala John Adams and Alexander Hamilton. Thomas Jefferson, a kind of a proxy "Anti-Federalist" did not want the Standing Army or any Navy. Just thought I would point out that your facts are wrong.
The military is highly efficient. Also, don`t you agree that the Socialist Police and Fire Department as well as the Socialist Postal Service and the Socialist Department of Transportation which our roads are built and the Socialist Center for Disease Control and the Socialist Department of Agriculture and Food Safety and the National Institute of Health are all wonderful things shared by the collective?
-
The politicians will never go for a national sales tax.
Try a Socialist politician on for size as the National Sales Tax and the abolishment of the Income tax is what they champion. Find your inner Socialist.
-
Try a Socialist politician on for size as the National Sales Tax and the abolishment of the Income tax is what they champion. Find your inner Socialist.
Can you please post the video of your 220lbs X 100 deadlift and the photos of you kissing your girlfriend (sister) not on the cheek?
Thanks man, I appreciate it, you only promised both 2 years ago or even before.
-
If you don`t like taxes, don`t pay them. Civil Dissention is after all, the highest form of patriotism. :)
I personally think there should be a National Sales tax ON ALL NEW items. EVERYTHING IS TAXED! with the exception of food and housing.
Used items should also be tax free.
Changing the nation from a spending to a savings oriented nation will not only reward quality, but will promote correct conservatism as it is meant to be practiced.
This way, people will have total control of every dollar they make and will be in total control of their finance.
Everybody pays the same equally.
We can be as regressive and as progressive as we like with a National Sales Tax as the world economy waxes and wanes. 20 percent is the agreed upon amount by all Fair Tax/National Sales Tax economists.
This isn't going to make you any friends on the left, TA. :-\
-
uh, you have it backwards. The Federalists were imperialists and wanted an Army and a Large Navy ala John Adams and Alexander Hamilton. Thomas Jefferson, a kind of a proxy "Anti-Federalist" did not want the Standing Army or any Navy. Just thought I would point out that your facts are wrong.
The military is highly efficient. Also, don`t you agree that the Socialist Police and Fire Department as well as the Socialist Postal Service and the Socialist Department of Transportation which our roads are built and the Socialist Center for Disease Control and the Socialist Department of Agriculture and Food Safety and the National Institute of Health are all wonderful things shared by the collective?
You're wrong. The military is very inefficient; we may be efficient in destroying the enemy, but to maintain an army, very inefficient. I would agree that the DOT (specifically roads, not mass transit), Fire Departments and police departments are good things for the collective, because they apply to everyone equally! If someone commits a crime the police is there, fire same thing. You will get no argument from me that these aren't good for the collective. If it is not applied to all then it shouldn't be paid for by the government, my opinion. DOD same thing.
The other thing about these; they are inherently inefficient because they do not produce anything. They only consume. Much like a hub operation at UPS or Fedex. The basic goal of the hub is to limit cost, avoid delays and don't break anything. Fire departments, police departments and DOD do employ people that is true, but without the economic engine of capitalism these things would not be able to function.
-
You're wrong. The military is very inefficient; we may be efficient in destroying the enemy, but to maintain an army, very inefficient. I would agree that the DOT (specifically roads, not mass transit), Fire Departments and police departments are good things for the collective, because they apply to everyone equally! If someone commits a crime the police is there, fire same thing. You will get no argument from me that these aren't good for the collective. If it is not applied to all then it shouldn't be paid for by the government, my opinion. DOD same thing.
The other thing about these; they are inherently inefficient because they do not produce anything. They only consume. Much like a hub operation at UPS or Fedex. The basic goal of the hub is to limit cost, avoid delays and don't break anything. Fire departments, police departments and DOD do employ people that is true, but without the economic engine of capitalism these things would not be able to function.
Democratic Socialism promotes Capitalism.
-
Democratic Socialism promotes Capitalism.
We live in an Oligarchy run by pols and their wall street puppet masters.
-
You're wrong. The military is very inefficient; we may be efficient in destroying the enemy, but to maintain an army, very inefficient. I would agree that the DOT (specifically roads, not mass transit), Fire Departments and police departments are good things for the collective, because they apply to everyone equally! If someone commits a crime the police is there, fire same thing. You will get no argument from me that these aren't good for the collective. If it is not applied to all then it shouldn't be paid for by the government, my opinion. DOD same thing.
The other thing about these; they are inherently inefficient because they do not produce anything. They only consume. Much like a hub operation at UPS or Fedex. The basic goal of the hub is to limit cost, avoid delays and don't break anything. Fire departments, police departments and DOD do employ people that is true, but without the economic engine of capitalism these things would not be able to function.
actually the government is moving away from Mil spec on most equipment and is using outside contractors for most of the work that was considered inefficient.
The problems lay in how they qualify contractors.
But outsourcing itself isn't the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Standard
Origins
Defense standards evolved from the need to ensure proper performance and maintainability of military equipment. For example, due to differences in dimensional tolerances, in World War II American screws and bolts did not fit British equipment properly and were not fully interchangeable.[1] Defense standards provide many benefits, such as minimizing the number of types of ammunition, ensuring compatibility of tools, and ensuring quality during production of military equipment. This results, for example, in ammunition cases that can be opened without tools. The proliferation of standards had drawbacks, however. It was argued that the large number of standards, nearly 30,000 by 1990, imposed unnecessary restrictions, increased cost to contractors, and hence the DOD, and impeded the incorporation of the latest technology. Responding to increasing criticism, Secretary of Defense William Perry issued a memorandum in 1994 that prohibited the use of most defense standards without a waiver.[2] This has become known as the "Perry memo". Many defense standards were canceled. In their place, the DOD encouraged the use of industry standards, such as ISO 9000 series for quality assurance. (See COTS.) Weapon systems were required to use "performance specifications" that described the desired features of the weapon, as opposed to requiring a large number of defense standards. In 2005 DOD issued a new memorandum[3] which eliminated the requirement to obtain a waiver in order to use defense standards. The 2005 memo did not reinstate any canceled defense standards.
According to a 2003 issue of Gateway, published by the Human Systems Information Analysis Center [4], the number of defense standards and specifications have been reduced from 45,500 to 28,300. However, other sources noted that the number of standards just before the Perry memorandum was issued was less than 30,000, and that thousands have been canceled since then. This may be due to differences in what is counted as a "military standard".
-
;)
-
;)
You might want to argue on your own rather than post things all the time.