THE TRUE ADONIS SOCIALIST TAX PLAN

[The True Adonis]

Where is my evidence..well TA, we have been discussing this on the pol board for the last 2 years..welcome to the debate. Just because u live in fuzzy lib land and u've never heard the horror stories, I can't help u. Dig through the posts.

I am asking for you to provide evidence so that I can establish that it is indeed true and to see if there really is a problem.

So far you have just made the whole thing up.  I am open to any evidence you have and would love to see it.  If it even exists that is.

Remember, you made this claim. Without any evidence at all it simply falls flat on its face.  So again, please provide me with some raw, independent and verifiable data.

[MB]

I would do away with all health insurance companies.  Why should there be a middle man between you and your doctor scraping off some of the profit?  In a free market, there would be competitive pricing among doctors and better care.  This would also relieve employers from the burdon of paying medical premiums for the employees.  Insurance companies do nothing but redistribute money from the healthy to the sick while keeping some for themselves.  Why not just save your own money for when you need it?

[The True Adonis]

Headhunter,

I looked and looked but cannot find anythign about Ambulance rides.  Can you please assist me?  I am willing to see the evidence if it exists, but so far have come up empty.  

[The True Adonis]

I would do away with all health insurance companies.  Why should there be a middle man between you and your doctor scraping off some of the profit?  In a free market, there would be competitive pricing among doctors and better care.  This would also relieve employers from the burdon of paying medical premiums for the employees.  Insurance companies do nothing but redistribute money from the healthy to the sick while keeping some for themselves.  Why not just save your own money for when you need it?

Agreed.

[Soul Crusher]

Agreed.

The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.

[The True Adonis]

The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.

Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening.  Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.

[Soul Crusher]

Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening.  Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.

Medicare is broke and bankrupting us.

[headhuntersix]

Recently in the UK has pledged that if you go to the emergency room, you will be seen by a doctor in less than 4 hours… …Well, not only is that an incredibly long time to wait when you are horribly sick, but the UK hospitals can’t even get some patients in under the 4 hour time limit!!!
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But of course since the government in the UK PLEDGED the 4 hour (or less) wait, they have to find some way to make sure all patients don’t “wait” longer than four hours for medical care.
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Well, they found a way… …It is called “PATIENT STACKING” …….Now patient stacking is basically adding another waiting line…. ….What happens is, instead of immediately taking the patient right into the ER when the ambulance arrives to be seen by a doctor, they keep the patient INSIDE the ambulance until they know the patient can be seen by a doctor in under the 4 hour time limit………. .…yes, this is true…the Union that represents the Ambulance workers has stated it happens often.
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Some patients have had to wait in the ambulance for up to FIVE HOURS before they could go into the hospital where they could end up waiting an additional 4 hours.
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Now not only is this bad for the patient waiting for care, but it is also bad for other people who NEED the ambulances because they can’t get one, because all the ambulances are parked outside the hospital with sick people inside.
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The worst example of this waiting problem is the tragic story of Luke Galamore…. Luke was a 16-year-old leukemia patient. His local doctor requested an Immediate transfer to intensive care calling it, quote “EXTREMELY urgent and absolutely critical.” He waited an entire hour, contacted the ambulance services multiple times to request transportation…..the ambulances all were full of patients waiting to get INTO the hospital……… ….Without anyone to come and pick him up, Luke slipped into a coma and died 16 days later.
…….This story here isn’t some extreme horror story or isolated incident… …….Hospitals and ambulance crews reported more than 43,000 ambulance delays of more than 1 hour in the last 15 months alone.
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In many countries in Europe the average waiting time at hospitals is stretching into HOURS.
In Canada, many of their ER’s are so over crowded and under-staffed that at one hospital the average wait time is nearly 1 DAY (22 hours)…..All over Canada the wait times are even longer than those in Europe…… ….Canada has such a huge problem, that they are forced to send thousands of ER patients down the United States to receive care.
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With the waiting time in US hospitals mere minutes, maybe it is time we start severely examining socialized medicine.
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What do you think? Give me your opinion  

[headhuntersix]

Ambulances are being used as waiting rooms outside hospital emergency units in order to meet Government pledges on treatment times, a union has claimed.
Unison said so-called patient stacking in ambulances was used if they could not be seen in A&E within four hours.

The Department of Health denied the target was causing undue delays.

It said the four-hour limit for A&E waiting starts 15 minutes after the ambulance arrives, regardless of whether a patient has been handed over.

But Tories and Liberal Democrats accused the government of mishandling the NHS.

  It happens time and time again. It is an appalling waste of resources.

Mary Maguire
Unison spokeswoman 

Shadow health minister Mike Penning said: "Not admitting people to hospital but stacking patients in car parks beggars belief in the 21st century."

Lib Dem health spokesman Norman Lamb said it was evidence of a "shocking systemic failure" in emergency care services.

Turnaround time

The claims come after the Observer reported that some patients were left for up to five hours in an ambulance because A&E refused to admit them until they could seen within the target time.

A study of seven of England's 11 regional ambulance services by the newspaper showed delays of more than an hour were common and that at least 44,000 delays were reported in the last 15 months.

Unison - which represents ambulance staff - said it first raised the issue in 2005.

Spokeswoman Mary Maguire said: "A 16-year-old terminally ill cancer patient died after waiting over an hour for an ambulance to transfer him. Three ambulances could have reached him but they were tied up waiting to hand over patients to A&E."

"It happens time and time again. It is an appalling waste of resources. We should not use ambulances as waiting rooms."

A Department of Health spokesman said: "The turnaround time does not reflect just the time spent by patients in the ambulance before being admitted to accident and emergency time but also time spent cleaning, restocking and readying the ambulance to go back out on the road."

He added: "Four years ago, almost a quarter of patients spent more than four hours in A&E - now, over 98% are seen, diagnosed and treated within four hours of their arrival

[headhuntersix]

I don't make anything up......u guys want this shit move. That map u posted has some wonderful countries on it.

[headhuntersix]

Headhunter,

I looked and looked but cannot find anythign about Ambulance rides.  Can you please assist me?  I am willing to see the evidence if it exists, but so far have come up empty.  

It took me 2 minutes..come on TA..burying ur head in the sand won't make UHC get any better.

[MB]

The problem is that in the event of a serious incident or disaease like cancer, it literally can wipe away a lifetimes' worth of savings.

Under the current system, a serious health scare like this could wipe away everything.  But what if we eliminated all the artificial costs inflated by health insurance premiums, medical malpractice insurance, extra office staff to handle insurance paperwork, care for illegals, etc and set "reasonable" rates for care?  So many people are trying to make a profit in the health industry, when it could be a lot simpler and cheaper if it was just patient and doctor.  

[The True Adonis]

I still can`t find any evidence that this is a widespread and occurring or re-occurring problem among all countries with Universal Healthcare.  We have worse patient stacking in the United States at alarming rates in the ER.  Improvements certainly could be addressed.

I am examining Norway`s model at the moment and they seem to have the best system.

[IFBBwannaB]

Under a single payer system this would prevent it from happening.  Nobody goes bankrupt on Medicare, the preferred choice of seniors in America.

That's a LIE, countries with health care DON'T support every treatment and medicine, there is a list of procedures and medicines that are approved and that's it, everything else is your own problem.

Most of the time when anything that is more than a headache happens you need to pay just like in the US so stop lying.

[headhuntersix]

I still can`t find any evidence that this is a widespread and occurring or re-occurring problem among all countries with Universal Healthcare.  We have worse patient stacking in the United States at alarming rates in the ER.  Improvements certainly could be addressed.

I am examining Norway`s model at the moment and they seem to have the best system.

Well TA, I didn't say that it was a problem everywhere, I said it was a problem in the UK, so much of one they had to establish a law, which was then circumvented. There are 4.5 million people in Norway.....there are over 8 million in what is considered New York city. The bus system in Norway wouldnt work for New York let alone a health care system.

[The True Adonis]

Well TA, I didn't say that it was a problem everywhere, I said it was a problem in the UK, so much of one they had to establish a law, which was then circumvented. There are 4.5 million people in Norway.....there are over 8 million in what is considered New York city. The bus system in Norway wouldnt work for New York let alone a health care system.

Easily solved.  Reduce defense spending which is the obscene majority of our budget.



Comparison with other countries


The 2005 U.S. military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world's defense spending combined [5] and is over eight times larger than the official military budget of China. (Note that this comparison is done in nominal value US dollars and thus is adjusted for purchasing power parity.) The United States and its close allies are responsible for about two-thirds of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority). In 2007, US military spending was above 1/4 of combined industrial and agricultural production in the USA.

Military discretionary spending accounts for more than half of the U.S. federal discretionary spending, which is all of the U.S. federal government budget that is not appropriated for mandatory spending.[6]

In 2003, the United States spent about 47% of the world's total military spending of US$910.6 billion, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

The United States spends 4.06% of its GDP on its military (considering only basic Department of Defense budget spending, while complete military spending is higher by more than 50% due to additional DoD funding and funding of other federal military departments), more than France's 2.6% and less than Saudi Arabia's 10%.[7] This is historically low for the United States since it peaked in 1944 at 37.8% of GDP (it reached the lowest point of 3.0% in 1999-2001). Even during the peak of the Vietnam War the percentage reached a high of 9.4% in 1968.[8]

Because the U.S. GDP has risen over time, the military budget can rise in absolute terms while shrinking as a percentage of the GDP. For example, according to the Center for Defense Information, the US outlays for defense as a percentage of federal discretionary spending, has from Fiscal Year 2003 consumed more than half (50.5%) of all such funding and has risen steadily.[9] Discretionary spending accounts for approximately 1/3 of all federal outlays.[10] Therefore, comparing nominal dollar values of military spending over the course of decades fails to account for the impact of inflationary forces, for which military spending as a percentage of GDP does account.

The recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are largely funded through supplementary spending bills outside the Federal Budget, so they are not included in the military budget figures listed above.[11] In addition, the United States has black budget military spending which is not listed as Federal spending and is not included in published military spending figures. Other military-related items, like maintenance of the nuclear arsenal and the money spent by the Veterans Affairs Department, are not included in the official budget. Thus, the total amount spent by the United States on military spending is higher.

[headhuntersix]

Well please tell me what U'd like to cut..what. I'm sorry but these moron's who want a hand out can either work harder and get a better job...or punt. What in the Defense budget needs to go. We're condcuting major combat operations in two countries with no end in sight despite Barry's fondest hopes. The military needs to be rebuilt and we're also getting bigger. The threat isn't going away..and oh yeah there are a hell of alot of jobs in the defense industry, a hell of alot.

[The True Adonis]

Well please tell me what U'd like to cut..what. I'm sorry but these moron's who want a hand out can either work harder and get a better job...or punt. What in the Defense budget needs to go. We're condcuting major combat operations in two countries with no end in sight despite Barry's fondest hopes. The military needs to be rebuilt and we're also getting bigger. The threat isn't going away..and oh yeah there are a hell of alot of jobs in the defense industry, a hell of alot.

General Dwight Eisnehower said it best in his Farewell address.

[Deicide]

The Scandinavian systems work because they are tiny countries; they cannot be implemented in the US.

[headhuntersix]

Maybe before u morons go and break the one thing that works in this country u ought to look elsewhere. We'll soon be in Mexico and we're gearing up for Africa as we speak. Cut the NEA, cut the department of education and turn it back to the states, cut foreign aid.....look at all the money we just wasted....start cutting programs and bloat. There are programs within the DOD, that will be cut....part of the game, but major cuts results in Trade Tower 1, The USS Cole, Somalia, 911  etc etc etc.  

Yeah ok TA...drag out Eisenhower. How did we win the cold war?

Thank u Decide......

[The True Adonis]

Maybe before u morons go and break the one thing that works in this country u ought to look elsewhere. We'll soon be in Mexico and we're gearing up for Africa as we speak. Cut the NEA, cut the department of education and turn it back to the states, cut foreign aid.....look at all the money we just wasted....start cutting programs and bloat. There are programs within the DOD, that will be cut....part of the game, but major cuts results in Trade Tower 1, The USS Cole, Somalia, 911  etc etc etc.  

Yeah ok TA...drag out Eisenhower. How did we win the cold war?

Thank u Decide......

The one thing that works well is the Military and that happens to be the largest Socialist Entity in the World.

[The True Adonis]

The Scandinavian systems work because they are tiny countries; they cannot be implemented in the US.

False.  We already spend more on healthcare per citizen than Norway, but do not yield nearly the same benefits or standard of care.

[The True Adonis]

The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[5][6]  A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.[8] However, the U.S. is a leader in medical innovation, with three times higher per-capita spending than Europe

[The True Adonis]

[The True Adonis]

Money Alone Does Not Extend Lives

Despite the wide gaps, higher spending on health care does not necessarily prolong lives. In 2000, theUnited States spent more on health care than any other country in the world: an average of $ 4,500 per person. Switzerland was second highest, at $3,300 or 71% of the US. Nevertheless, average US life expectancy ranks 27th in the world, at 77 years. Many countries achieve higher life expectancy rates with significantly lower spending. The chart below shows the top 30 countries in the world ranked by life expectancy. The red line indicates per-capita health expenditure (right axis), and shows that many countries outperform the US with approximately half the spending.