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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on April 21, 2009, 11:25:26 AM
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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief
Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles. (CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)
This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘- ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”
[/b] The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.
“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”
After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.
The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.
“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.
“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”
A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.
In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________
I will say it now:
1. I have no problem with DHS saying I am a potential domestic enemy for my beliefs
2. Obama is a traitor and sleeper cell islamic marxist
3. The CIA saved lives by pouring water over this murderers; head.
4. Islam is a death cult
5. Obama could care less if thousands of citizens are killed in a 9/11 style attack.
6. Obama is and will always be a miserable disgrace worse than Carter.
FUBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And they're considering prosecuting people for doing this?? >:( >:( >:(
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its all just a political show to the public, beach. we all know that 'strong interrogation methods' have always been there, and in reality they arent going to go away now.
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People like Decker would rather the US get nuked than waterboard a terrorist mastermind. As long as we dont "stoop" to their level, its ok if everyone is killed in the process. ::)
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It's getting very difficult not to get angry on a daily basis lately at the ridiculous measures this administration is imposing. "Let's not make the poor, misunderstood Terrorist uncomfortable. He has a legitamate grievance. Certainly his comfort and well being are more important than the potential innocent victims of an attack." So are the rights of the Illegal alien child rapist, the rights of NAMBLA..it just gets worse and worse. How did this happen to America?
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It's getting very difficult not to get angry on a daily basis lately at the ridiculous measures this administration is imposing. "Let's not make the poor, misunderstood Terrorist uncomfortable. He has a legitamate grievance. Certainly his comfort and well being are more important than the potential innocent victims of an attack." So are the rights of the Illegal alien child rapist, the rights of NAMBLA..it just gets worse and worse. How did this happen to America?
The facts are now clear as day that waterboarding does work.
Hey Decker - try to refute this article please!
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of course torture works if you have the right guy. thats common sense
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of course torture works if you have the right guy. thats common sense
KSM masterminded 9/11 and liberals like Decker are going to cry over water being poured over his head????
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________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________
I will say it now:
1. I have no problem with DHS saying I am a potential domestic enemy for my beliefs
FUBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would you have a problem if they water boarded you as a result?
;) :D ;D
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Would you have a problem if they water boarded you as a result?
;) :D ;D
I did not kill 3000 people 10 miles from where I live like KSM did.
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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief
Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles. (CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)
This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘- ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”
[/b] The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.
“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”
After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.
The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.
“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.
“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”
A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.
In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________
I will say it now:
1. I have no problem with DHS saying I am a potential domestic enemy for my beliefs
2. Obama is a traitor and sleeper cell islamic marxist
3. The CIA saved lives by pouring water over this murderers; head.
4. Islam is a death cult
5. Obama could care less if thousands of citizens are killed in a 9/11 style attack.
6. Obama is and will always be a miserable disgrace worse than Carter.
FUBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess you are not exacly a non-interventionist... :-\
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I did not kill 3000 people 10 miles from where I live like KSM did.
No way to tell unless we water board you. ;D
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I dont believe the constitution is a suicide pact and realize that we are facing an emeny who uses our weakness, timidity, stupidity, and self loathing, against us.
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No way to tell unless we water board you. ;D
Ha ha. KSM is evil incarnate and I would kill him myself if they let me.
I live 10 miles from ground zero and remember that day all too well.
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I dont believe the constitution is a suicide pact and realize that we are facing an emeny who uses our weakness, timidity, stupidity, and self loathing, against us.
So why do you support Ron Paul then? Because of his economics? ???
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Ha ha. KSM is evil incarnate and I would kill him myself if they let me.
I live 10 miles from ground zero and remember that day all too well.
I have mixed views on the whole torture thing. In this case it seemed worth it.
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So why do you support Ron Paul then? Because of his economics? ???
Mostly.
However, I am also mature enough to understand that it is better for 1 person to get waterboarded than 3000 killed.
If its my family that dies because of some bizarre idea that pouring water over someones' head is not allowed , I am not going to be too receptive at the funeral when some liberal homo stands there and says "well, we kept true to our values".
Screw that. you get yourself killed if you want, i'm not down for that.
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Mostly.
However, I am also mature enough to understand that it is better for 1 person to get waterboarded than 3000 killed.
If its my family that dies because of some bizarre idea that pouring water over someones' head is not allowed , I am not going to be too receptive at the funeral when some liberal homo stands there and says "well, we kept true to our values".
Screw that. you get yourself killed if you want, i'm not down for that.
I understand that side too. If someone holds information that would save lives it seems prudent to torture them. But at the same time, often torture doesn't yield measurable results and is sometimes used with out reason.
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Mostly.
However, I am also mature enough to understand that it is better for 1 person to get waterboarded than 3000 killed.
If its my family that dies because of some bizarre idea that pouring water over someones' head is not allowed , I am not going to be too receptive at the funeral when some liberal homo stands there and says "well, we kept true to our values".
Screw that. you get yourself killed if you want, i'm not down for that.
Do you support the American Empire?
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Do you support the American Empire?
So we should be a pinata?
Its not an either or situation. The constitution requires us to defend our nation.
I am not for being a global empire, but at the same time, we also have DUTY & OBLIGATION to defend the citizens from attack.
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most here would support waterboarding 1000 arabs to find one ksm.
would you support the waterboarding of 1000 americans?
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most here would support waterboarding 1000 arabs to find one ksm.
would you support the waterboarding of 1000 americans?
Of course not, but that is not what happened and that is not what does happen in real life.
What happened in real life is far different than the nonsense the liberal garbage spewed every day.
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most here would support waterboarding 1000 arabs to find one ksm.
would you support the waterboarding of 1000 americans?
No. Americans are inherentlys more valuable than other human beings. That is a fact.
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What a stupid example by 240-- Why not ask, would you waterboard 1000 kittens or small children. ::)
Does reality ever come into play?
If the argument is, waterboarding is acceptable when you have the right people-- Obama and the neo liberals here disagree with you. Reality and necessity dont matter-- its about "principle".
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What a stupid example by 240-- Why not ask, would you waterboard 1000 kittens or small children. ::)
Does reality ever come into play?
If the argument is, waterboarding is acceptable when you have the right people-- Obama and the neo liberals here disagree with you. Reality and necessity dont matter-- its about "principle".
I agree.
We should also keep in mind that we're not dealing with conventional enemies. We're not interrogating soldiers of a military force that actually follows rules of engagement. We're dealing with animals who will blow themselves and noncombatants up.
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They refuse to argue about this article because it is clear evidence that THOUSANDS OF LIVES WERE SAVED we pouring water of KSM's head.
Future blood of Americans is on liberal hands if future plots are not able to be broken up because we cant get the intel.
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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief
Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles. (CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)
This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘- ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”
[/b] The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.
“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”
After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.
The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.
“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.
“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”
A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.
In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________
I will say it now:
1. I have no problem with DHS saying I am a potential domestic enemy for my beliefs
2. Obama is a traitor and sleeper cell islamic marxist
3. The CIA saved lives by pouring water over this murderers; head.
4. Islam is a death cult
5. Obama could care less if thousands of citizens are killed in a 9/11 style attack.
6. Obama is and will always be a miserable disgrace worse than Carter.
FUBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mohammed already gave the same information prior to waterboarding. So much for this story.
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Mohammed already gave the same information prior to waterboarding. So much for this story.
Where does it say that?
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And they're considering prosecuting people for doing this?? >:( >:( >:(
Have you answered the question yet when did waterboarding stop being torture? You say you are a conservative. Prove it.
It was torture in WWII. It was torture 20 years ago in a police case.
When did waterboarding stop being torture for you?
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Where does it say that?
Which aspects of this plot could Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's waterboarding have revealed?
We learned about Al Qaeda's interest in flying planes into buildings on September 11, 2001.
We knew about Al Qaeda's use of shoe bombs from Richard Reid, captured in December 22, 2001.
We knew about Jemaah Islamiyah at least since the Bali Bomb attack on October 12, 2002.
The "key al Qaeda operative" and pilot for the plot, Zaini Zakari, was arrested by Malaysian authorities in December 2002.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan on March 1, 2003 — after the plot was discovered, after the plot was "derailed", after the pilot of the plane was captured. Khaled Sheikh Mohammed could not have "provided valuable information and saved lives" when all aspects of the plot were well-known and the attack had been foiled prior to his capture.
http://waterboarding.org/success_story
More garbage from rightwing radicals...the same type who are likely to become domestic terrorists...according to this report:
http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf
Stop trying to change our country into a nazi/mafioso/quasi-terrorist regime.
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Have you answered the question yet when did waterboarding stop being torture? You say you are a conservative. Prove it.
It was torture in WWII. It was torture 20 years ago in a police case.
When did waterboarding stop being torture for you?
I never said it was torture. Never said I was a conservative.
I think it's ridiculous to put this and us in the same category as real torture done by terrorists. Absurd.
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I only hope that if people die, they are not related to you.
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________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________
I will say it now:
1. I have no problem with DHS saying I am a potential domestic enemy for my beliefs
2. Obama is a traitor and sleeper cell islamic marxist
3. The CIA saved lives by pouring water over this murderers; head.
4. Islam is a death cult
5. Obama could care less if thousands of citizens are killed in a 9/11 style attack.
6. Obama is and will always be a miserable disgrace worse than Carter.
FUBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with all of this, especially #2
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i'm ok with torture. but i find the above post by The Coach to be nutty.
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i'm ok with torture. but i find the above post by The Coach to be nutty.
I don't, he's been kissing ass, apologetic about the America and talking against America to the dictators of the world. He makes it VERY clear that he is on their side and not ours.
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I don't, he's been kissing ass, apologetic about the America and talking against America to the dictators of the world. He makes it VERY clear that he is on their side and not ours.
they won the election and we have every right to protest. is saudi arabia a dictatorship?
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they won the election and we have every right to protest. is saudi arabia a dictatorship?
No, it's a monarchy ruled by a King. Bad, but not as bad as a dictator.
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No, it's a monarchy ruled by a King. Bad, but not as bad as a dictator.
um women in saudi arabia cannot drive, own property or vote. are you ok with that too?
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I dont believe the constitution is a suicide pact and realize that we are facing an emeny who uses our weakness, timidity, stupidity, and self loathing, against us.
It's not, ...but blind allegiance to the Republicans can be.
They've been using your weaknesses, timidity, stupidity, and self loathing against you for the past 8 years.
btw - are you sure you'd be able to spot an enemy, ...seeing how you can't even spell it?
...or is an emeny an even graver threat than an enemy? :o
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Of course not, but that is not what happened and that is not what does happen in real life.
Not yet anyway. :P But hey, ...give it time. You gotta warm up the muscles before you flex them. ;D
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Anyone here seriously believe that you can extort any kind of worthwhile information (especially from people who are willing to die for it) in any method beside torture? ::)
If you believe that no country is doing that and more than you're a moron, the major difference is that most countries don't keep a record of the torture and a few silent men (investigators) can defend the country from a media shit storm and keep the Arab bitches at bay.
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Debussey fully supports waterboarding terrorists.
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It's not, ...but blind allegiance to the Republicans can be.
They've been using your weaknesses, timidity, stupidity, and self loathing against you for the past 8 years.
btw - are you sure you'd be able to spot an enemy, ...seeing how you can't even spell it?
...or is an emeny an even graver threat than an enemy? :o
I guess that massive hole in the ground 10 miles from where I live is a mirage?????
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I guess that massive hole in the ground 10 miles from where I live is a mirage?????
Why do you think they attacked the US?
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Why do you think they attacked the US?
This started years ago. They attacked us because they could.
Just like the Marine Barracks in Beirut, Somalia, Cole, Khobar towers, The embassaies in Africa, WTC 93', the terrorists guessed we would not do anything, like we always did.
Additionally, there is ZERO excuse for targeting poten tially 50,000 innocent people for attack. So whatever reason they had, have, or could think of, it does not mean shit to me.
We are lucky only 3000 died. Those towers at any other part of the day had 50,000 people in them.
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This started years ago. They attacked us because they could.
Just like the Marine Barracks in Beirut, Somalia, Cole, Khobar towers, The embassaies in Africa, WTC 93', the terrorists guessed we would not do anything, like we always did.
Additionally, there is ZERO excuse for targeting poten tially 50,000 innocent people for attack. So whatever reason they had, have, or could think of, it does not mean shit to me.
We are lucky only 3000 died. Those towers at any other part of the day had 50,000 people in them.
If you are tracking down a murderer you try to understand his motives, it doesn't mean you approve of murder. There must have been a reason WHY and maybe understanding that reason would help us to lessen the danger in the future.
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That's fine, but they are only doing what they have always done.
I agree that our meddling in the ME is probably a major cause, and I blame ourselves for that. We should be drilling our own oil and providing our own energy.
That would have been one of the things I would have done on 9/12/2001.
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That's fine, but they are only doing what they have always done.
I agree that our meddling in the ME is probably a major cause, and I blame ourselves for that. We should be drilling our own oil and providing our own energy.
That would have been one of the things I would have done on 9/12/2001.
Na...we just went back to spending and shopping like we should have... ;D
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Na...we just went back to spending and shopping like we should have... ;D
That was nonsense too.
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That was nonsense too.
But Bush told us to! :o
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waterboarding and sleep deprivation are excellent tools. too bad we even have Miranda rights
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waterboarding and sleep deprivation are excellent tools. too bad we even have Miranda rights
If your enemy is willing to die in order to hurt you and you're not willing to inflict light damage on him to prevent it than it's only a matter of time before he will win.
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If your enemy is willing to die in order to hurt you and you're not willing to inflict light damage on him to prevent it than it's only a matter of time before he will win.
Badabing. If grinding a terrorist in a meatgrinder was useful, it should be done.
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Badabing. If grinding a terrorist in a meatgrinder was useful, it should be done.
I just cant understand the mind of a person would prefer that thousands of people die because they dont want to pour water over someone's head.
What is the principal ZERO is saying we are upholding in that????
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I just cant understand the mind of a person would prefer that thousands of people die because they dont want to pour water over someone's head.
What is the principal ZERO is saying we are upholding in that????
i am a big liberal and i dont get it either
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i am a big liberal and i dont get it either
Im not kidding, I just cant imagine being at a funeral of a family member who was killed in a toeerorist attack and then find out later that the death could have been avoided but for our refusal to pour water over someones' head in some ivory tower "principle" that to me is a suicide pact with the devil.
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Im not kidding, I just cant imagine being at a funeral of a family member who was killed in a toeerorist attack and then find out later that the death could have been avoided but for our refusal to pour water over someones' head in some ivory tower "principle" that to me is a suicide pact with the devil.
i'm not either...queers will be the first to be rounded up if the towel heads took over
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I never said it was torture. Never said I was a conservative.
Can't pigeonhole this guy.
Except for the fact that you are a supporter of torture.
Now since the US has always held waterboarding to be torture, when did it cease to be such for you?
I think it's ridiculous to put this and us in the same category as real torture done by terrorists. Absurd.
Why is that? See Beach Bum, unsupported conclusions can lead one to absurd ends...like supporting torture.
Don't forget the Nazis and Communists. They waterboarded people as well.
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Can't pigeonhole this guy.
Except for the fact that you are a supporter of torture.
Now since the US has always held waterboarding to be torture, when did it cease to be such for you?
Why is that? See Beach Bum, unsupported conclusions can lead one to absurd ends...like supporting torture.
Don't forget the Nazis and Communists. They waterboarded people as well.
They also gassed people, held mass executions without trials, etc.
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They also gassed people, held mass executions without trials, etc.
Isn't tortue enough for you?
Now you want all this?
That's not how the good guys operate.
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And they're considering prosecuting people for doing this?? >:( >:( >:(
This isn’t about whether or not it worked (or, even if it's torture) and the information gleaned, resulted in thousands of lives saved. This is about the left, obsessed with getting their pound of flesh from the Bush administration.
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This isn’t about whether or not it worked (or, even if it's torture) and the information gleaned, resulted in thousands of lives saved. This is about the left, obsessed with getting their pound of flesh from the Bush administration.
Wrong.
It's about Bush ordering waterboarding - something patently illegal under federal law.
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Isn't tortue enough for you?
Now you want all this?
That's not how the good guys operate.
No. Pouring water of someones' head does not kill them or maim them. It does not do physical permanent harm or inflict physical damage on a person.
Gassing and executing kills a person.
Cant you see the difference?
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No. Pouring water of someones' head does not kill them or maim them. It does not do physical permanent harm or inflict physical damage on a person.
Gassing and executing kills a person.
Cant you see the difference?
I was commenting on your apparent call for gassing people, etc. Isn't torture enough?
It's a joke son.
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I was commenting on your apparent call for gassing people, etc. Isn't torture enough?
It's a joke son.
I have been up since 5:30 and have been dealing with deadbeats all day. ;D ;D
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I have been up since 5:30 and have been dealing with deadbeats all day. ;D ;D
I'm in the same boat.
Have a cup of joe...I'm on my 8th.
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Can't pigeonhole this guy.
Except for the fact that you are a supporter of torture.
Now since the US has always held waterboarding to be torture, when did it cease to be such for you?
Why is that? See Beach Bum, unsupported conclusions can lead one to absurd ends...like supporting torture.
Don't forget the Nazis and Communists. They waterboarded people as well.
No, you cannot. :)
I'm a supporter of those who are doing whatever they can to protect us from the animals who want to kill us.
Nice spin on your questions. It's like the "when did you stop beating your wife" questions. It assumes that at some point in time I concluded waterboarding was torture. Not true.
Who cares about Nazis and Communisits?
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No. Pouring water of someones' head does not kill them or maim them. It does not do physical permanent harm or inflict physical damage on a person.
Gassing and executing kills a person.
Cant you see the difference?
Torture is also mental... Chinese water torture never physically killed anyone, but it's still torture right?
1 drop of water at a time.
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This isn’t about whether or not it worked (or, even if it's torture) and the information gleaned, resulted in thousands of lives saved. This is about the left, obsessed with getting their pound of flesh from the Bush administration.
Exactly. Seems to happen whenever there is a turnover. Purely political.
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Exactly. Seems to happen whenever there is a turnover. Purely political.
I disagree... I'm not trying to charge Bush with any crime or talk about whether or not someone did something illegal.
I just want people to understand that torture is wrong.
Nothing more, nothing less... What scares me is how the most Christian lovers of peace are the ones in this thread who are so adamant that these non peaceful measure are not torture and are good.
That bothers me a little.
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Torture is also mental... Chinese water torture never physically killed anyone, but it's still torture right?
1 drop of water at a time.
By your definition we cant even scream or yell at people.
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By your definition we cant even scream or yell at people.
You equate chinese water torture with yelling at people?
There is physical duress during all of these "methods", so I'm afraid your leap doesn't really make a lot of sense here.
No, they're not dying, but there is physical and mental trauma being performed at the same time.
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I disagree... I'm not trying to charge Bush with any crime or talk about whether or not someone did something illegal.
I just want people to understand that torture is wrong.
Nothing more, nothing less... What scares me is how the most Christian lovers of peace are the ones in this thread who are so adamant that these non peaceful measure are not torture and are good.
That bothers me a little.
Then you're the exception. The attempt to investigate members of the Bush administration over this "torture" crap is nothing more than partisan politics at its worst.
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I think its torture...its not really harming them...i'd do anything and everything if it worked and kept this country safe...but waterboarding is torture...I guess.
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I think its torture...its not really harming them...i'd do anything and everything if it worked and kept this country safe...but waterboarding is torture...I guess.
You seem well informed. My question is do Geneva Convention rules on P.O.W's apply to terrorists who act without the explicit authority of their Country? Isn't that why the whole Enemy Combatant loophole allowed the "harsh" treatment of them?
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Then you're the exception. The attempt to investigate members of the Bush administration over this "torture" crap is nothing more than partisan politics at its worst.
It's not partisan politics. That's facile.
Torture is a federal crime.
You may not respect that law but your personal views will take a backseat to the law.
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No, you cannot. :)
I'm a supporter of those who are doing whatever they can to protect us from the animals who want to kill us.
....
Whatever they can to protect us?
And you say I make loaded statements?
Waterboarding doesn't work and it's illegal.
Other than that, it's a hell of a way to protect us.
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It's not partisan politics. That's facile.
Torture is a federal crime.
You may not respect that law but your personal views will take a backseat to the law.
You assume that everything that is a crime is wrong and/or should be punished for but that's a very far from the truth, most laws get updated over the years, you wouldn't want to live with 1400's witch hunting laws do you?
It's morally right to torture ONE person that holds information that will save THOUSANDS , just think of it as of it as if they shot down some plane who is about to drop a bomb on you, the only difference is that you don't wait so long that you are on the verge of disaster and you didn't even have to kill the pilot/terrorist.
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It's not partisan politics. That's facile.
Torture is a federal crime.
You may not respect that law but your personal views will take a backseat to the law.
Of course it's partisan politics. I guarantee you any attempt by Congress to investigate this crap will consist of all or pretty all Democrats. We have a Democrat president sticking his finger in the wind to see what the public response will be. It is as partisan as the Clinton/Lewinsky matter.
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Whatever they can to protect us?
And you say I make loaded statements?
Waterboarding doesn't work and it's illegal.
Other than that, it's a hell of a way to protect us.
The CIA disagrees with you.
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Of course it's partisan politics. I guarantee you any attempt by Congress to investigate this crap will consist of all or pretty all Democrats. We have a Democrat president sticking his finger in the wind to see what the public response will be. It is as partisan as the Clinton/Lewinsky matter.
Was the Clinton impeachment for the betterment of the country or was it just partisan politics?
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Was the Clinton impeachment for the betterment of the country or was it just partisan politics?
I just said it was partisan politics.
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I just said it was partisan politics.
Just making sure... I needed to get the confirmation that I wasn't just seeing something that wasn't there.
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Should we also prosicute the libs who knew and claimed they didn't like Palosi?
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Should we also prosicute the libs who knew and claimed they didn't like Palosi?
If you prosecute one, you have to prosecute them all... So, I say, yes.
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But she was one of the ones who are calling for any investigation......she's third in command (good God):(!
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Just making sure... I needed to get the confirmation that I wasn't just seeing something that wasn't there.
Clinton made most of the mess himself, if he would have admitted at the start (when it was political) it would have blown off quickly but since he lied under oath, that's when shit hit the fan and they had a legitimate reason to go after him. Although that all thing was BS, they got him in a corner since they knew he would act like that.
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You assume that everything that is a crime is wrong and/or should be punished for but that's a very far from the truth, most laws get updated over the years, you wouldn't want to live with 1400's witch hunting laws do you?
It's morally right to torture ONE person that holds information that will save THOUSANDS , just think of it as of it as if they shot down some plane who is about to drop a bomb on you, the only difference is that you don't wait so long that you are on the verge of disaster and you didn't even have to kill the pilot/terrorist.
Everything that is a crime is wrong. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
If one person held the answer to saving 1000s of lives then surely we would have to torture him. That's great reasoning. It's never happened in our recorded history. But it happens on 24 all the time.
And that, my friends, is why it should be US policy.
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Of course it's partisan politics. I guarantee you any attempt by Congress to investigate this crap will consist of all or pretty all Democrats. We have a Democrat president sticking his finger in the wind to see what the public response will be. It is as partisan as the Clinton/Lewinsky matter.
Obama campaigned on transparency and against torture.
You must have missed that finger.
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The CIA disagrees with you.
Really. Would you please show me the Agency's official statement that torture worked?
Mind you, that's the admission of a felony.
See, stuff that Obama is showing the public indicates that the CIA broke the law, that Bush and Co. broke the law and that, if he chooses, Obama can try them for felonies.
Interrogators, who spoke to the Times on condition of anonymity, said they believed Zubaydah told them everything he knew before waterboarding began. They communicated this to agency higher-ups in Washington, who nonetheless insisted on the use of the practice, and asked to watch it take place.
"You get a ton of information, but headquarters says, 'There must be more,' " recalled one intelligence officer who was involved in the case. As described in the footnote to the memo, the use of repeated waterboarding against Abu Zubaydah was ordered "at the direction of C.I.A. headquarters," and officials were dispatched from headquarters "to watch the last waterboard session."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0420/p99s01-duts.html
They already knew. The waterboarding...was extra.
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As I understand it yes.....they're enemy combatants, not soldiers under a flag. The term is made up because we had no idea what to do with them. Prior to this, most terrorists were either dead or let go. If u look at other terror events from the 70's on, either the anti-terror forces killed em, or they were used in an exchange somewhere down the line. We don't do that. Plus once we rolled over the Taliban, we found tons of foreign fighters.
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You equate chinese water torture with yelling at people?
There is physical duress during all of these "methods", so I'm afraid your leap doesn't really make a lot of sense here.
No, they're not dying, but there is physical and mental trauma being performed at the same time.
LOL you equate waterboarding to cuting the heads of ppl, suicide bombings, killing innocents and using innocents to hide behind, using mentally diaabled and children to harm ppl and this is a far leap for you? hahahah wow :o
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Everything that is a crime is wrong. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
If one person held the answer to saving 1000s of lives then surely we would have to torture him. That's great reasoning. It's never happened in our recorded history. But it happens on 24 all the time.
And that, my friends, is why it should be US policy.
You're not getting it genius, the Nazi's have Nirenberg laws...they were sooo right... ::)
You're the one who keep mentioning them so please explain that , laws are made at a certain time by a few certain individuals , thus they can easily be wrong themself or absolute.
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Obama campaigned on transparency and against torture.
You must have missed that finger.
Obama is still campaigning. I can honestly say I'm concerned about the safety of our country given what he has done so far. I saw a bumper sticker the other day:
OneBigA**MistakeAmerica
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You're not getting it genius, the Nazi's have Nirenberg laws...they were sooo right... ::)
You're the one who keep mentioning them so please explain that , laws are made at a certain time by a few certain individuals , thus they can easily be wrong themself or absolute.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
The Nuremberg holdings are still good law to this day.
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Obama is still campaigning. I can honestly say I'm concerned about the safety of our country given what he has done so far. I saw a bumber sticker the other day:
OneBigA**MistakeAmerica
Don't let your nebulous fear get the better of you. That was the m/o for 8 years under Bush. Obama is a much better president than Bush was at this time in his presidency. Then again, Bush had a surplus and good economic times.
Obama's saddled with the Bush Depression.
Don't let the fear win Beach Bum.
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Don't let your nebulous fear get the better of you. That was the m/o for 8 years under Bush. Obama is a much better president than Bush was at this time in his presidency. Then again, Bush had a surplus and good economic times.
Obama's saddled with the Bush Depression.
Don't let the fear win Beach Bum.
How can you say we had a surplus considering the national debt we have???
It was all a smokescreen anyway by the same wall street thieves Rubin et al.
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How can you say we had a surplus considering the national debt we have???
It was all a smokescreen anyway by the same wall street thieves Rubin et al.
Didn't Clinton leaved him with one?
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Didn't Clinton leaved him with one?
They had a brief budget surplus, however that was done using SS receipts which should not be part of the general fund.
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They had a brief budget surplus, however that was done using SS receipts which should not be part of the general fund.
Research it. Not true.
It was still a surplus even if you take out the SS.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/during_the_clinton_administration_was_the_federal.html (http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/during_the_clinton_administration_was_the_federal.html)
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I have no idea what you are trying to say.
The Nuremberg holdings are still good law to this day.
Hey there fucking Arab Nazi, please go fuck yourself.
Supporting this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws = mega troll.
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This whole thread is a lie... The damn "threat they stopped in LA" turns out to be a lie... The guy they claimed told him about this.. wasnt arrested for almost 6 months after they claimed this was going to happen... sum bags..
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LOL you equate waterboarding to cuting the heads of ppl, suicide bombings, killing innocents and using innocents to hide behind, using mentally diaabled and children to harm ppl and this is a far leap for you? hahahah wow :o
No I equate our ability to be better than them in all instances... You're talking about murder, I'm talking about torture... I hate to mention it, but they are two different things.
Yes, those people are wrong, but we're not "less wrong" because we use torture against those people we consider evil.
We're just as wrong, just about something different... For a group of people who consider themselves Christians, the Christians are acting the least Christian among us about this.
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No I equate our ability to be better than them in all instances... You're talking about murder, I'm talking about torture... I hate to mention it, but they are two different things.
Yes, those people are wrong, but we're not "less wrong" because we use torture against those people we consider evil.
We're just as wrong, just about something different... For a group of people who consider themselves Christians, the Christians are acting the least Christian among us about this.
By your logic we will fall into anarchy, do you realise that the Police and Military are purely violent entities?
You follow the law because you fear the violent action of the Police, no one goes to jail just because he agree with the law it's because he knows he will get dragged in anyway if he wouldn't want to.
The fear and the usage of violence is a mandatory part of a lawful society.
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By your logic we will fall into anarchy, do you realise that the Police and Military are purely violent entities?
You follow the law because you fear the violent action of the Police, no one goes to jail just because he agree with the law it's because he knows he will get dragged in anyway if he wouldn't want to.
The fear and the usage of violence is a mandatory part of a lawful society.
I disagree... I think most people do not commit certain acts because they know it is wrong and have been taught correctly by society as a whole.
You disagree and that's fine, but don't hold me to your standard... I don't rape or kill because I know it's wrong, not because I'm afraid of what the Police may do or think.
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I disagree... I think most people do not commit certain acts because they know it is wrong and have been taught correctly by society as a whole.
You disagree and that's fine, but don't hold me to your standard... I don't rape or kill because I know it's wrong, not because I'm afraid of what the Police may do or think.
You take it to the extreme on your specific case, but I'm sure that you would love to pay a little less tax, drive a little bit faster and so on. There are plenty of laws who we disagree completely with or partly and we uphold them because of fear and not because we support them.
You as such a big Bush hater should know that very well, you didn't agree with everything he brought to the table but followed it because he is the President and the law support him but mostly because you knew that you would get kicked by Police officers if you didn't, it might not be conscious but that fear is in everyone of us just like you fear fire you fear the retribution of the law.
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You take it to the extreme on your specific case, but I'm sure that you would love to pay a little less tax, drive a little bit faster and so on. There are plenty of laws who we disagree completely with or partly and we uphold them because of fear and not because we support them.
You as such a big Bush hater should know that very well, you didn't agree with everything he brought to the table but followed it because he is the President and the law support him but mostly because you knew that you would get kicked by Police officers if you didn't, it might not be conscious but that fear is in everyone of us just like you fear fire you fear the retribution of the law.
Sure there are laws I disagree with... So what... I do obey them... not because of fear though... I just believe in Society making the laws and people should follow them.
If there is a law I truly don't believe in... I just break it... I have no fear of the police as you put it.
I don't know how you can say "I hate Bush"... I do not... I think he was a terrible President... but hating him is quite beyond my realm of thought.
You are still holding me to your standard... You can not do that... Everyone does not think like you.
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If there is a law I truly don't believe in... I just break it... I have no fear of the police as you put it.
If the punishment will be severe enough and enforced commonly enough you will not break a law that you don't disagree with, don't bullshit us just to get your point across.
And I don't hold you or me to any standart it just basic physiology and logic, if tomorrow a new law will determine that driving on a highway is limited at 30mph and a 10 year jail time you will not do it, the risk vs reward will be too great.
The exception to that rule is breaking the law as an act of defiance and trying to create some political change, otherwise, regular law obeying citizens obey the law mostly due to fear.
Don't mix it up with laws that you think they are sensible and you obey them because you agree with them.
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If the punishment will be severe enough and enforced commonly enough you will not break a law that you don't disagree with, don't bullshit us just to get your point across.
And I don't hold you or me to any standart it just basic physiology and logic, if tomorrow a new law will determine that driving on a highway is limited at 30mph and a 10 year jail time you will not do it, the risk vs reward will be too great.
The exception to that rule is breaking the law as an act of defiance and trying to create some political change, otherwise, regular law obeying citizens obey the law mostly due to fear.
Don't mix it up with laws that you think they are sensible and you obey them because you agree with them.
Sorry dude... I just think people are generally good at heart and don't do things because they think they're wrong.
I don't believe fear is the reason... We will disagree on this.
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"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison
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Sorry dude... I just think people are generally good at heart and don't do things because they think they're wrong.
I don't believe fear is the reason... We will disagree on this.
Even if we take your (to be honest sanctimonious approach) it will still not contradict the fact that the Police and Military are purely violent entities and base their power on their option to legally use extreme violence.
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Even if we take your (to be honest sanctimonious approach) it will still not contradict the fact that the Police and Military are purely violent entities and base their power on their option to legally use extreme violence.
I agree with that statement. I don't particularly like the police... I understand the need for military powers, but I see them as two different entities and requirements.
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I agree with that statement. I don't particularly like the police... I understand the need for military powers, but I see them as two different entities and requirements.
Well that was the original statement that you went off topic from and brought yourself as an example to contradict ;)
I didn't said they were the same but they both base their power on the same principle.
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Hey there fucking Arab Nazi, please go fuck yourself.
Supporting this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws = mega troll.
Some day you'll thank me.
Torture is wrong. Torture is illegal.
Bush's use of torture was not to elicit some life-saving information from suspected terrorists.
Bush ordered the torture to get 'confessions' that would support his illegal war: Hussein's ties to Al Qaeda, Iraqi terror plots etc.
Why do you think some guys were tortured 180+ times? The torture continued until the inquisitor got what he wanted.
Don't you see that?
Of course you don't. You buy into the party line that torture is a fine way to treat an untried person.
As for calling me a Nazi, remember the company you keep with your defense of torture. It ain't the USA.
And your post makes no sense again.
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Obama is still campaigning. I can honestly say I'm concerned about the safety of our country given what he has done so far. I saw a bumper sticker the other day:
OneBigA**MistakeAmerica
Obama will bring socialism to America and destroy our country.
Why he'll bring us to the precipice of financial collapse.
He'll start things he can't possibly pay for...
Oh, wait, we already have those things under your Bush-capitalist system.
Come on Beach Bum, give Obama a chance.
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...to destroy the country completely...i finished for u Decker.
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Obama will bring socialism to America and destroy our country.
Why he'll bring us to the precipice of financial collapse.
He'll start things he can't possibly pay for...
Oh, wait, we already have those things under your Bush-capitalist system.
Come on Beach Bum, give Obama a chance.
You are right in one respect.
Bush is responsible for ushering in the bailouts and chaos we see right now. However, Obama picked up the ball and sprinted with it.
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Some day you'll thank me.
Torture is wrong. Torture is illegal.
Bush's use of torture was not to elicit some life-saving information from suspected terrorists.
Bush ordered the torture to get 'confessions' that would support his illegal war: Hussein's ties to Al Qaeda, Iraqi terror plots etc.
Why do you think some guys were tortured 180+ times? The torture continued until the inquisitor got what he wanted.
Don't you see that?
Of course you don't. You buy into the party line that torture is a fine way to treat an untried person.
As for calling me a Nazi, remember the company you keep with your defense of torture. It ain't the USA.
And your post makes no sense again.
1.Supporting the Nuremberg laws makes your post nothing but wasted bytes.
2.Your logic that all laws are the absolute truth and will always stay that way make you seem even more idiotic, see #1.
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1.Supporting the Nuremberg laws makes your post nothing but wasted bytes.
2.Your logic that all laws are the absolute truth and will always stay that way make you seem even more idiotic, see #1.
I thought George Whorewell was sophomoric with his criticism.
You put him to shame.
You don't even pretend to make a coherent argument.
Nothing personal, but you are about the dumbest person I've encountered on this board.
Like I said, don't take that personally.
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I thought George Whorewell was sophomoric with his criticism.
You put him to shame.
You don't even pretend to make a coherent argument.
Nothing personal, but you are about the dumbest person I've encountered on this board.
Like I said, don't take that personally.
::)
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Obama will bring socialism to America and destroy our country.
Why he'll bring us to the precipice of financial collapse.
He'll start things he can't possibly pay for...
Dude you're a prophet. I hope you're wrong.
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Well that was the original statement that you went off topic from and brought yourself as an example to contradict ;)
I didn't said they were the same but they both base their power on the same principle.
No... My statement was that people do not obey laws because they are scared.
I made no other statement about the topic. ;)
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No... My statement was that people do not obey laws because they are scared.
I made no other statement about the topic. ;)
If that was true we would be living in a much better world, too bad reality wants to take part in this too.
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If that was true we would be living in a much better world, too bad reality wants to take part in this too.
I think that's simply the "vocal minority" if you will.
If everyone was just evil, then if wouldn't matter how much military or police you had... They couldn't stop the rampage.
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BUMP