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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Mons Venus on September 12, 2009, 05:42:20 AM
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Joe Wilson's Free Health Care
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) isn’t just a buffoon: He’s also a hypocrite. His Web site says he “is passionate about stopping government-run health care,” but Wilson himself receives government-run health care. As a retired Army National Guard colonel with four sons in the military, he and his family enjoy free military Medicare coverage, known as Tricare. Tricare is a single-payer system and covers 9.5 million people. Though Wilson enjoys Tricare, he has voted 11 times against health care for veterans in eight years.
Read it at Newsweek.
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I'm convinced Joe Wilson and HH6 are the same person.
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All these repube politicians and military personnel are complete hypocrites. And they don't want others to have the health care that they themselves receive on the taxpayer's dime. It would be hilarious if it weren't so outrageous.
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All these repube politicians and military personnel are complete hypocrites[/b]. And they don't want others to have the health care that they themselves receive on the taxpayer's dime. It would be hilarious if it weren't so outrageous.
X1000
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Look, the two biggest douchbags on the board, jerking each other off. One won't defend his posts with coherent agruments and the other pretended to defend his country.
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Look, the two biggest douchbags on the board, jerking each other off. One won't defend his posts with coherent agruments and the other pretended to defend his country.
Why are you shooting the messenger, when the message is still valid?
The reality is that Joe Wilson does in fact (similarly to yourself) have tax payer funded healthcare.
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Why are you shooting the messenger, when the message is still valid?
The reality is that Joe Wilson does in fact (similarly to yourself) have tax payer funded healthcare.
That's not true. Joe Wilson, like HH6, works for his healthcare. No job, no coverage.
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That's not true. Joe Wilson, like HH6, works for his healthcare. No job, no coverage.
Do your taxes pay for it or not Beach?
I didn't say it was "free" nor did I say it was "invalid", nor even that it was wrong. I didn't say he didn't work for it.
I simply said it was taxpayer funded... Which is 100 percent true.
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Funny...they don't see the link. Work...healthcare...no worky no healthcare. Had Mons actually served he would understand this. He would not have to cut and paste articles on Tricare...he would easily be able to articulate the pros and cons of that system and how it works. Just post ur 214 douchbag...black out the name and address/phone numbers if applicable and after I go through it line by line, we can drop the stolen honor thing.
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Do your taxes pay for it or not Beach?
I didn't say it was "free" nor did I say it was "invalid", nor even that it was wrong. I didn't say he didn't work for it.
I simply said it was taxpayer funded... Which is 100 percent true.
Wilson also has his Congressional plan which trumps Tricare, I have no idea how that works for them. I'm sure if his 4 sons have been in for a bit they've deployed and more then earned their coverage. We all pay taxes for that coverage.
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Funny...they don't see the link. Work...healthcare...no worky no healthcare.
That's ridiculous... It's either paid by taxpayers or it's not. Either it's run by the government or it's not.
Why are you guys so in love with your insurance companies? They don't actually help you... They are a pay source... nothing more.
The insurance company will drop you the first chance it can.
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Wilson also has his Congressional plan which trumps Tricare, I have no idea how that works for them. I'm sure if his 4 sons have been in for a bit they've deployed and more then earned their coverage. We all pay taxes for that coverage.
I guess I don't get your point. See my previous post about government run and paid by the taxpayer.
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Do your taxes pay for it or not Beach?
I didn't say it was "free" nor did I say it was "invalid", nor even that it was wrong. I didn't say he didn't work for it.
I simply said it was taxpayer funded... Which is 100 percent true.
As do the millions of federal employees who work for the govt. It is part of the pay package they are contracted for.
How stupid are you people?
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As do the millions of federal employees who work for the govt. It is part of the pay package they are contracted for.
How stupid are you people?
Wow.. Now we're stupid?
I'm pragmatic and we see things for what they are. It's pretty simple.
You can't bitch about government run healthcare when you RECEIVE government run healthcare. It's very simple, but you can't seem to get it through your thick skull apparently.
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That's ridiculous... It's either paid by taxpayers or it's not. Either it's run by the government or it's not.
Why are you guys so in love with your insurance companies? They don't actually help you... They are a pay source... nothing more.
The insurance company will drop you the first chance it can.
Mine can't drop me.....once I retire I'll pay a premium but thats about it. I can stay with Tricare or go straight VA. I don't have a problem. I worked my ass off in school to get Commisioned with the branch I wanted and continue to work hard to ensure that I stay in and have access to care...no different then anybody else who has put themselves...through hard work...to get well paid, to include healthcare.
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Mine can't drop me.....once I retire I'll pay a premium but thats about it. I can stay with Tricare or go straight VA. I don't have a problem. I worked my ass off in school to get Commisioned with the branch I wanted and continue to work hard to ensure that I stay in and have access to care...no different then anybody else who has put themselves...through hard work...to get well paid, to include healthcare.
That's my point! You just said it... They CAN'T drop you... and what makes you so special?
I can get dropped and I've worked every bit as hard as you if not harder... So why do you think you deserve better health insurance than I do?
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Wow.. Now we're stupid?
I'm pragmatic and we see things for what they are. It's pretty simple.
You can't bitch about government run healthcare when you RECEIVE government run healthcare. It's very simple, but you can't seem to get it through your thick skull apparently.
I pay for myself every month. I dont get free anything. I also dont want or expect you to pay for me either.
The govt is the major factor in the increases of the price and inflation in health care and you and others think that the culprit is going to be the cure???
WTF planet are you living on? The govt always makes a problem worse not better. Health care is no different.
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That's my point! You just said it... They CAN'T drop you... and what makes you so special?
I can get dropped and I've worked every bit as hard as you if not harder... So why do you think you deserve better health insurance than I do?
BINGO !!!
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Do your taxes pay for it or not Beach?
I didn't say it was "free" nor did I say it was "invalid", nor even that it was wrong. I didn't say he didn't work for it.
I simply said it was taxpayer funded... Which is 100 percent true.
My taxes pay for everything the federal government does. My taxes also pay for everything my state and local governments do. My tax dollars fund the salaries of all everyone who works for the local, state, and federal governments. So, from that standpoint, you are correct that my tax dollars fund the benefits those workers received. But the distinction between that and what some of the trolls argue is they actually work for healthcare benefits. It's asinine to compare someone who works for employment benefits, especially someone who risks his or life for those benefits, to the government giving benefits to people with no work element. Not saying you're doing that, but that's the context of this thread.
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BINGO !!!
Because we do not live in a socialist state. Some people get better stuff, thats life, deal with it.
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Mine can't drop me.....once I retire I'll pay a premium but thats about it. I can stay with Tricare or go straight VA. I don't have a problem.
HH6 = Receives Socialized Healthcare
HH6 = Receives Socialized College
HH6 = Receives Socialized Pension
HH6 = Receives Socialized Housing
HH6 = If it's Free= it's 4 me!
HH6 = Fuucck everyone else!
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HH6 = Receives Socialized Healthcare
HH6 = Receives Socialized College
HH6 = Receives Socialized Pension
HH6 = Receives Socialized Housing
HH6 = If it's Free= it's 4 me!
HH6 = Fuucck everyone else!
Its part of the deal he got in return for a lower salary and increased risk of death. WTF is so hard to understand you psychotic stalker?
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Good sign from today.
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Wilson just passed his opponent.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Wilson_campaign_Fundraising_breaks_1_million_passes_Miller.html
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Joe Wilson's Free Health Care
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) isn’t just a buffoon: He’s also a hypocrite. His Web site says he “is passionate about stopping government-run health care,” but Wilson himself receives government-run health care. As a retired Army National Guard colonel with four sons in the military, he and his family enjoy free military Medicare coverage, known as Tricare. Tricare is a single-payer system and covers 9.5 million people. Though Wilson enjoys Tricare, he has voted 11 times against health care for veterans in eight years.
Read it at Newsweek.
Stay on subject.
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you guys are morons
recieving health care from the govt isnt the same as govt run health care....idiots
in one instance you actually work or pay for it in another you get it free...
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That's my point! You just said it... They CAN'T drop you... and what makes you so special?
I can get dropped and I've worked every bit as hard as you if not harder... So why do you think you deserve better health insurance than I do?
Maybe because he offers up his life in service for this country?
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Maybe because he offers up his life in service for this country?
that doesnt matter to them...
apparently working and getting stuff for free is the same
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I actually get the Right Wingers argument here...
If you VOLUNTEER to fight or your country then TAXPAYER SUBSIDISED healthcare is nothing more than a benefit in kind; a form of renumeration; a fraction of the wage earned.
Such healthcare should be earned, not handed out at TAXPAYER expense for free.
To HH6; Skip8282; tonymctones; 333386 and others:
Am I properly comprehending your position? Am I articulating your position concisely and correctly?
The Luke
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That's my point! You just said it... They CAN'T drop you... and what makes you so special?
I can get dropped and I've worked every bit as hard as you if not harder... So why do you think you deserve better health insurance than I do?
When was the last time u were deployed to a war zone...worked for months straight...months...8-12 hour days all day everyday with limited or no contact with family, eaten plastic food, gotten mortored and rocketed...shot at..IED'd....4 hours sleep for days or less...been in charge of lives..not employee's ..lives..in every aspect...jumped out of an airplane as part of ur job..roped down a line froma chopper...walked with 100 plus lbs on ur back..for work...in blazing heat..or numbing cold....they can't drop us. Even if u do manuel labor and dig ditches, nobody is trying to kill u as part of ur job....they can't drop us. I'm not saying I've done all of the above..but its a pretty good list of things soldiers have to do.
And Luke..yes..instead of the Gov paying me and me paying into a service as you urself might do with ur job...we get the healthcare "free"as a benefit. Imagine selling co-pays as part of the recruiting video. Now when I retire I will have co-pays with Tricare or free with the VA. But as with anything if I go with TRICARE, it operates like normal insurance. It will depend if I go to a military facility whether I pay a co-pay. Our system, is as mind numbingly hard to figure out as regular insurance. The difference is that I can go around the system to get to the military doctors while the average person still deals with the stupidity. My bene
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I pay for myself every month. I dont get free anything. I also dont want or expect you to pay for me either.
The govt is the major factor in the increases of the price and inflation in health care and you and others think that the culprit is going to be the cure???
WTF planet are you living on? The govt always makes a problem worse not better. Health care is no different.
Hey genius... I wasn't talking about you... I was talking about Joe Wilson.
When was the last time u were deployed to a war zone...worked for months straight...months...8-12 hour days all day everyday with limited or no contact with family, eaten plastic food, gotten mortored and rocketed...shot at..IED'd....4 hours sleep for days or less...been in charge of lives..not employee's ..lives..in every aspect...jumped out of an airplane as part of ur job..roped down a line froma chopper...walked with 100 plus lbs on ur back..for work...in blazing heat..or numbing cold....they can't drop us. Even if u do manuel labor and dig ditches, nobody is trying to kill u as part of ur job....they can't drop us. I'm not saying I've done all of the above..but its a pretty good list of things soldiers have to do.
And Luke..yes..instead of the Gov paying me and me paying into a service as you urself might do with ur job...we get the healthcare "free"as a benefit. Imagine selling co-pays as part of the recruiting video. Now when I retire I will have co-pays with Tricare or free with the VA. But as with anything if I go with TRICARE, it operates like normal insurance. It will depend if I go to a military facility whether I pay a co-pay. Our system, is as mind numbingly hard to figure out as regular insurance. The difference is that I can go around the system to get to the military doctors while the average person still deals with the stupidity. My bene
Because it's their job. It does not make them "special".
I easily work as hard and have just as much impact on society as your soldiers do. GTFO with you thinking you're better because you are in the military.
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And Luke..yes..instead of the Gov paying me and me paying into a service as you urself might do with ur job...we get the healthcare "free"as a benefit.
...well then at least we can start from a point of agreement.
That agreement must be that your entire argument is based on a faulty premise.
If the CHILDREN of soldiers are entitled to the benefits of socialised healthcare then any and all arguments your side can muster to defend your children availing of taxpayer funded socialised healthcare can similarly be used to defend an orphans (or the needy) entitlement to such taxpayer funded socialised healthcare.
You get taxpayer funded socialised healthcare because you served in the armed forces and the poor; needy; underprivileged; illegals etc didn't serve... that's fine. But your kids are too young to serve and they have access to your taxpayer funded socialised healthcare... if your kids get it without serving so should everybody elses kids.
Yours is the typical retarded moronic Republican catch-cry of forcing everyone to fend for themselves.
You can't build a society that way.
The Luke
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you idiots operate under the assumption that recieving health care from the govt for a job is the same as govt run health care and its not...
address that point brain children...
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...well then at least we can start from a point of agreement.
That agreement must be that your entire argument is based on a faulty premise.
If the CHILDREN of soldiers are entitled to the benefits of socialised healthcare then any and all arguments your side can muster to defend your children availing of taxpayer funded socialised healthcare can similarly be used to defend an orphans (or the needy) entitlement to such taxpayer funded socialised healthcare.
You get taxpayer funded socialised healthcare because you served in the armed forces and the poor; needy; underprivileged; illegals etc didn't serve... that's fine. But your kids are too young to serve and they have access to your taxpayer funded socialised healthcare... if your kids get it without serving so should everybody elses kids.
Yours is the typical retarded moronic Republican catch-cry of forcing everyone to fend for themselves.
You can't build a society that way.
The Luke
you fuking moron they get it as a part of his contract b/c he served brain child if you work and have health care you have the option of covering your kids as well...
again address the point jack ass
receiving health care from the govt isnt the same as govt run health care...you guys are showing your idiocy in true lib fasion
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That's my point! You just said it... They CAN'T drop you... and what makes you so special?
I can get dropped and I've worked every bit as hard as you if not harder... So why do you think you deserve better health insurance than I do?
What makes him and Wilson so special is that they served their country, thats what makes them so special. HH6 volunteered to serve his country for little pay, in that reguard he and anyone that's either in or was in the military deserves to be taken care of..IMO, we own them that. Anyone else who want to freeload should pay. But unfortunately ingrate liberals can't see it that way. No, neither are hipocrites, liberals are just not smart enough to see it that way.
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I easily work as hard and have just as much impact on society as your soldiers do. GTFO with you thinking you're better because you are in the military.
OK, I'll bite. First, I don't think anybody is thinking soldiers are "better" than you. And, yes, having to put their life at risk is "special". If we follow your argument out, then I guess the POTUS should not have secret service protection unless we all have it? I'll guarantee you most people work harder than a guy who sits in meetings and briefings all day.
Second, please do tell what you do for society that makes such a strong and powerful impact that everybody should have to pay for your healthcare. What vital role do you play for this nation that the entire populace should have to foot your healthcare bills?
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you fuking moron they get it as a part of his contract b/c he served brain child if you work and have health care you have the option of covering your kids as well...
[/quote
...can a soldier cover someone else's kids if he doesn't have any himself?
...why do the kids of soldiers get taxpayer funded socialised healthcare when other kids don't?
...if a soldier dies in combat, do his kids have access to his taxpayer funded socialised healthcare even after his death? How long does that coverage last?
...how do orphans go about getting access to this taxpayer funded socialised healthcare? Seeing as they have no parents to send off to war?
...how do the kids of disabled people get access to this taxpayer funded socialised healthcare, seeing as the army won't accept their parents?
Do you guys see how retarded this "I deserve ma free healthcare healthcare 'cos I killed fureigners fur ma country, and ain't nobody else deserves no other free healthcare no how, no way" argument is?
I would defy any of the enlightened patriot veterans reading this board to proffer ONE good argument why their taxpayer funded socialised healthcare should be extended to their non-veteran family members THAT DOESN'T EQUALLY APPLY to all the people they want to refuse free healthcare to.
Awaiting crickets...
The Luke
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you fuking moron they get it as a part of his contract b/c he served brain child if you work and have health care you have the option of covering your kids as well...
[/quote
...can a soldier cover someone else's kids if he doesn't have any himself?
...why do the kids of soldiers get taxpayer funded socialised healthcare when other kids don't?
...if a soldier dies in combat, do his kids have access to his taxpayer funded socialised healthcare even after his death? How long does that coverage last?
...how do orphans go about getting access to this taxpayer funded socialised healthcare? Seeing as they have no parents to send off to war?
...how do the kids of disabled people get access to this taxpayer funded socialised healthcare, seeing as the army won't accept their parents?
Do you guys see how retarded this "I deserve ma free healthcare healthcare 'cos I killed fureigners fur ma country, and ain't nobody else deserves no other free healthcare no how, no way" argument is?
I would defy any of the enlightened patriot veterans reading this board to proffer ONE good argument why their taxpayer funded socialised healthcare should be extended to their non-veteran family members THAT DOESN'T EQUALLY APPLY to all the people they want to refuse free healthcare to.
Awaiting crickets...
The Luke
Its in return for a lower salary $$$$ wise. They make a small salary and get rewarded with benefits instead.
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Its in return for a lower salary $$$$ wise. They make a small salary and get rewarded with benefits instead.
...then shouldn't the poor get the same benefits? After all, in a capitalist monetary system, SOMEONE has to be poor.
See how this argument cuts both ways...? ...ALL the arguments that can be put forward to justify the children/spouses of soldiers receiving government-run taxpayer-funded socialised healthcare APPLY EQUALLY WELL to those your politics would deny healthcare.
The Luke
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...then shouldn't the poor get the same benefits? After all, in a capitalist monetary system, SOMEONE has to be poor.
See how this argument cuts both ways...? ...ALL the arguments that can be put forward to justify the children/spouses of soldiers receiving government-run taxpayer-funded socialised healthcare APPLY EQUALLY WELL to those your politics would deny healthcare.
The Luke
What service are "the poor" performing that they should get the same benes as the guy dodging bullets, terrorists, sand storms, and other hazards?
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It's not about a soldiers "rights". It's a perk of the job. It's a benefit used to entice people to possibly sacrifice their lives when called upon. That benefit does not equally apply to everybody because not everybody is willing to make that sacrifice. And you can skip the orphan and handicap crap because most, if not all, 50 states provide free healthcare for children under 18.
Look, I myself am leaning towards socialized medicine. I'm completely fed up with the Republicans doing absolutely nothing to help fix our problems. But, trying to justify socialized healthcare by attacking our service men and women is just nonsense.
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What service are "the poor" performing that they should get the same benes as the guy dodging bullets, terrorists, sand storms, and other hazards?
...what services are these veterans kids providing? Why do they get coverage?
The Luke
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...what services are these veterans kids providing? Why do they get coverage?
The Luke
its part of the package their parents get
you could say that about anybody who recieves coverage from their jobs and covers their children.
what part of this dont you understand?
recieving health care from the govt as part of your job isnt the same a govt run health care luke...
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recieving health care from the govt as part of your job isnt the same a govt run health care luke...
...eh, then who does run that healthcare?
Is the VA a privately run system that the government is not involved in? Are you really arguing that the American government doesn't run any healthcare programs?
By the way, I still haven't heard any proper argument that supports this taxper-funded government-run socialised healthcare being extended to soldiers dependents that doesn't equally apply to the groups you guys would deny any free healthcare: illegals; the poor; etc.
The Luke
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...eh, then who does run that healthcare?
Is the VA a privately run system that the government is not involved in? Are you really arguing that the American government doesn't run any healthcare programs?
By the way, I still haven't heard any proper argument that supports this taxper-funded government-run socialised healthcare being extended to soldiers dependents that doesn't equally apply to the groups you guys would deny any free healthcare: illegals; the poor; etc.
The Luke
Haven't heard a proper argument from you.
As long as government benefits should apply to everybody equally, where's my private 747? Where's my personal chef? Where's my secret service protection? Where's my private helicopter? After all, I work just as hard as the POTUS.
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Luke cops firemen teachers also get these benes too. Do you begrudge their kids as well from benefitting?
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Haven't heard a proper argument from you.
As long as government benefits should apply to everybody equally, where's my private 747? Where's my personal chef? Where's my secret service protection? Where's my private helicopter? After all, I work just as hard as the POTUS.
BS!
You probably work a lot harder from what I can tell is going on in this WH. ;D ;D ;D
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...eh, then who does run that healthcare?
Is the VA a privately run system that the government is not involved in? Are you really arguing that the American government doesn't run any healthcare programs?
By the way, I still haven't heard any proper argument that supports this taxper-funded government-run socialised healthcare being extended to soldiers dependents that doesn't equally apply to the groups you guys would deny any free healthcare: illegals; the poor; etc.
The Luke
your misunderstanding reciveing health care from the govt for a job which is recieving health care from the govt
isnt the same as govt run health care in which everybody recieves health care regardless of job or contribution....
you want to point to them as reasons for single payer but they contribute and its part of their contract nobody is stoping you or anyone else from joining up so if you want it that bad go join up...
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Haven't heard a proper argument from you.
As long as government benefits should apply to everybody equally, where's my private 747? Where's my personal chef? Where's my secret service protection? Where's my private helicopter? After all, I work just as hard as the POTUS.
LOL i could get on board with that
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LOL i could get on board with that
Just wait until the next time I put in some overtime. I'll really be expecting some free shit then. From the way he posts and spells, it doesn't seem to me that The Luke is even an American?
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Haven't heard a proper argument from you.
As long as government benefits should apply to everybody equally, where's my private 747? Where's my personal chef? Where's my secret service protection? Where's my private helicopter? After all, I work just as hard as the POTUS.
...healthcare is a basic human right. Its denial undermines civil society.
But to answer your silly arguments:
-you don't have a private 747... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised body does implement the stringent regulations that make airplane travel safer than car travel. It's called the FAA: Federal Aviation Authority
-you don't have a private chef... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised body does enforce the stringent regulations that guarantee the safety of your food. It's called the FDA: Food and Drug Administration
-you don't have personal secret service protection... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised police force does enforce the laws desigend to ensure your personal safety and liberties. Even besides the local police force you are probably aware of, there is also the FBI and CIA and NSA and Homeland Security... ALL taxpayer-funded government-run socialised institutions... not forgetting your taxpayer-funded government-run socialised army.
-you don't have a personal helicopter... but you can avail of taxpayer-funded government-run socialised public transport systems which are subsidised with taxpayer dollars. Buses, trains, school buses, roads, footpaths, bridges, tunnels etc etc... ALL taxpayer-funded/tax-payer-subsidised government-run socialised transport systems. If you need rescuing from a mountainous region, you actually do get a private helicopter.
Your silly reductio ad absurdum protestations are arguments for PAYING MORE TAXES, not less... arguments for MORE GOVERNMENT, not less... MORE SOCIALISM, not less...
You sir, are pwning yourself.
Luke cops firemen teachers also get these benes too. Do you begrudge their kids as well from benefitting?
...no, but why begrudge an illegal immigrants kid either? A human being in need is still a human being in need.
I believe America should adopt either the French or Canadian system.
Total... universial... unlimited... care. Single payer. I'd even go so far as to include dental and outlaw private health insurance: an identical plan for everyone... politicians; oligarchs; hobos; everyone.
The French system costs about 60% of what America CURRENTLY PAYS, and only some of America is paying. The French system is the best in the world, America (even for those with coverage) doesn't even come close.
If America just adopted the French System and gave EVERYONE who currently has no coverage (even illegals) a totally free ride... all that would mean for those who do already have healthcare (those opposing reform), would be an increase in coverage (no limits; better quality); no denial of service; and a halving of their current premiums.
Sounds good.
your misunderstanding reciveing health care from the govt for a job which is recieving health care from the govt
isnt the same as govt run health care in which everybody recieves health care regardless of job or contribution....
you want to point to them as reasons for single payer but they contribute and its part of their contract nobody is stoping you or anyone else from joining up so if you want it that bad go join up...
...veterans care is taxpayer-funded.
...veterans care is government-run.
...veterans care is socilaised.
It is YOU who doesn't properly understand the definitive differences between government-run healthcare (which America already has: Tricare; Medicare; Medicaid the VA; County Hospital ERs etc) and UNIVERSIAL HEALTHCARE (which is what you are so irrationally afraid of).
It's just fear of the misunderstood. Learn the difference and try to understand it.
The contributive argument is equally vacuous and redundant: CHILDREN DO NOT CONTRIBUTE.
If you want to deny coverage to non-contributors, start with your own children: citizens who do not work; do not serve in the military and drain resources from all areas of society.
Or maybe try applying whatever justifications you use on behalf of YOUR CHILDREN to other human beings. Like Jeebus would.
America is already being fleeced by the HMOs because your fear-based reactionary politics allows all sorts of parasitic industries to suck you dry... working Americans are already paying DOUBLE the cost of universial; quality healthcare, yet your care is not universial, it doesn't even always cover those paying for it:
-HMOs deny 20% of doctor recommended claims
-62% of bankruptcies are due to healthcare costs
-78% of those bankrupted HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE
You fools are paying the exhorbitant cost of your own ignorance and stupidity, yet you defend the system that is enslaving you.
If the system shits on your head, at least have the dignity not to lick your lips.
The Luke
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sorry hoss health care is not a basic human right its a business same as any other and as such is designed to make profit.
Ppl dont go through med school to help society they do so to make money.
wherever you go that looney idea that health care is a basic human right is wrong whats next houses for everyone, cars for everyone?
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...healthcare is a basic human right. Its denial undermines civil society.
But to answer your silly arguments:
-you don't have a private 747... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised body does implement the stringent regulations that make airplane travel safer than car travel. It's called the FAA: Federal Aviation Authority
-you don't have a private chef... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised body does enforce the stringent regulations that guarantee the safety of your food. It's called the FDA: Food and Drug Administration
-you don't have personal secret service protection... but a taxpayer-funded government-run socialised police force does enforce the laws desigend to ensure your personal safety and liberties. Even besides the local police force you are probably aware of, there is also the FBI and CIA and NSA and Homeland Security... ALL taxpayer-funded government-run socialised institutions... not forgetting your taxpayer-funded government-run socialised army.
-you don't have a personal helicopter... but you can avail of taxpayer-funded government-run socialised public transport systems which are subsidised with taxpayer dollars. Buses, trains, school buses, roads, footpaths, bridges, tunnels etc etc... ALL taxpayer-funded/tax-payer-subsidised government-run socialised transport systems. If you need rescuing from a mountainous region, you actually do get a private helicopter.
Thank you. You made my point.
You don't have healthcare....but the government provides for Medicare, Medicaid, CHIPS, and so on. Do you see how ridiculous your argument is?
When you try and justify having something because somebody else has it, the only time you'll have true equality is when everybody has exactly the same thing.
Now, if you want to argue that healthcare is a fundamental human right, something that a society should provide to it's populace...well, that's something I'm struggling to figure out myself.
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sorry hoss health care is not a basic human right its a business same as any other and as such is designed to make profit.
Ppl dont go through med school to help society they do so to make money.
wherever you go that looney idea that health care is a basic human right is wrong whats next houses for everyone, cars for everyone?
The Irish Constitution (I'm Irish by the way) provides:
-a right to housing (America has this too: project housing)
-a right to healthcare (America has this too)
-a right to work
...America is behind the times. In Ireland, people actually do go to Med School (for free) to help people.
For the record, America ALREADY recognises healthcare as a basic human right:
-prisoners of war receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-"enemy combatants" at Gitmo receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-prison inmates receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (and dental)
-children in care receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (and dental)
...America similarly has signed up to the Geneva Convention which recognises basic healthcare as a fundamental human right.
Why do I (a European) have to school you ignoramae on the intricacies of your own political system?
I still haven't heard any argument for transfering healthcare coverage ONLY to the children of those who receive free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (veterans etc).
All I'm hearing are FOX News talking points which are patently absurd falsehoods.
No interaction, no counter-argument, just regurgitated corporate news soundbytes.
For shame.
The Luke
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For the record, America ALREADY recognises healthcare as a basic human right:
-prisoners of war receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-"enemy combatants" at Gitmo receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-prison inmates receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (and dental)
-children in care receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (and dental)
I think you make some really good points here as to whether or not healthcare should be a fundamental human right.
I still haven't heard any argument for transfering healthcare coverage ONLY to the children of those who receive free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare (veterans etc).
The Luke
Yes you have, you just don't agree with them and you're not bright enough to distinguish that fact.
This is classic Eurotrash double speak. Always telling Americans that they should butt out of other people's business while endlessly butting into ours. We crossed an entire ocean to get away, and still you ass wipes manage to try and meddle in our affairs.
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I think you make some really good points here as to whether or not healthcare should be a fundamental human right.
Yes you have, you just don't agree with them and you're not bright enough to distinguish that fact.
This is classic Eurotrash double speak. Always telling Americans that they should butt out of other people's business while endlessly butting into ours. We crossed an entire ocean to get away, and still you ass wipes manage to try and meddle in our affairs.
...English is my first language, and my reading comprehension is excellent.
So please articulate these cogent arguments that I have somehow missed.
Remember the requirement: a valid argument why veterans/servicemen should be allowed to extend their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare coverage to their children and dependants, which DOES NOT similarly make the case for other groups.
Arguing military service as a prerequisite for access to such free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare has its merits... but why then include the dependants?
If a child, any child, wants healthcare he/she should be forced to join the marines, or at least sign a legally binding contract to enlist at eighteen, right? That's at least consistent.
These scrounging soldiers children, and the orphans of soldiers are getting free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
That's socialism? Right?
The Luke
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Remember the requirement: a valid argument why veterans/servicemen should be allowed to extend their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare coverage to their children and dependants, which DOES NOT similarly make the case for other groups.
The Luke
We've been over this. Healthcare, for the service men/women and their families, is provided as a benefit of their job, not as a right. Just as if you worked for Lowe's, Dell, Microsoft, or whoever, you can get healthcare for your family.
Military service is not the prerequisite, having a job that offers health benefits is.
And therein lies the problem, a lot of companies won't or can't provide it. So, now we're back to whether or not it should be a fundamental human right and the government should get involved.
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Military service is not the prerequisite, having a job that offers health benefits is.
...and which healthcare coverage offering jobs would you recommend to an orphaned child?
...how do the handicapped get a healthcare coverage offering job?
...how do those born with a disease/condition ever beat the "pre-existing condition" exclusions?
...can single, childless soldiers donate their dependants coverage to some needy woman and her kids? (like Jeebus would)
This is another silly argument. See the fault in this thinking?
At the rate American corporations are shedding their healthcare responsibilities, within 50 years the ONLY way to get healthcare through your job will be to enlist.
Even WITH healthcare coverage, if you have a catastrophic medical incident then you have to run the gauntlet of a standard 20% denial policy. (20% of doctor recommended treatments are denied by HMOs)
Basically, you fools are screaming to support a system in which YOU pay DOUBLE what the French pay for their worlds best healthcare system (which is universial), and in exchange you get access to the 37th best healthcare system in the world while footing the bill for all the uninsured people; undermining your own society; and stuffing the coffers of greedy HMO executives.
Then if you do have a major need... a catastrophic condition/incident, then you get to roll a dice to see if you even get what you grossly over paid for.
If it comes up snake-eyes... sorry, bankruptcy, then homelessness, and low and behold YOU are now one of the scroungers.
Morons.
Close the HMOs, scrap premiums, pay less than half the premium in taxes and get Canada's system.
Simple.
The Luke
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...and which healthcare coverage offering jobs would you recommend to an orphaned child?
...how do the handicapped get a healthcare coverage offering job?
...how do those born with a disease/condition ever beat the "pre-existing condition" exclusions?
...can single, childless soldiers donate their dependants coverage to some needy woman and her kids? (like Jeebus would)
This is another silly argument. See the fault in this thinking?
At the rate American corporations are shedding their healthcare responsibilities, within 50 years the ONLY way to get healthcare through your job will be to enlist.
Even WITH healthcare coverage, if you have a catastrophic medical incident then you have to run the gauntlet of a standard 20% denial policy. (20% of doctor recommended treatments are denied by HMOs)
Basically, you fools are screaming to support a system in which YOU pay DOUBLE what the French pay for their worlds best healthcare system (which is universial), and in exchange you get access to the 37th best healthcare system in the world while footing the bill for all the uninsured people; undermining your own society; and stuffing the coffers of greedy HMO executives.
Then if you do have a major need... a catastrophic condition/incident, then you get to roll a dice to see if you even get what you grossly over paid for.
If it comes up snake-eyes... sorry, bankruptcy, then homelessness, and low and behold YOU are now one of the scroungers.
Morons.
Close the HMOs, scrap premiums, pay less than half the premium in taxes and get Canada's system.
Simple.
The Luke
More nonsense because you can't address the argument. Hence your need to consistently spiral down into name calling.
Again, what does this have to do with you? Or Ireland for that matter? Why do feel compelled to interfere with our affairs?
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More nonsense because you can't address the argument. Hence your need to consistently spiral down into name calling.
...eh, what argument would that be? You haven't proffered a cogent argument.
Again, what does this have to do with you? Or Ireland for that matter? Why do feel compelled to interfere with our affairs?
...this kind of defensiveness would seem to indicate that YOU are avoiding the issue. I merely pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the argument put forth by those opposing healthcare reform.
No one has put forth an argument that doesn't cut both ways.
You, Skip8282, haven't even put forward any semblance of an argument yet you continue to accuse me of failing to address this imaginary argument of yours.
Could you simply quote your argument, I can't find anything resembling a proper argument in your posts.
Seriously.
The Luke
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...eh, what argument would that be? You haven't proffered a cogent argument.
...this kind of defensiveness would seem to indicate that YOU are avoiding the issue. I merely pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the argument put forth by those opposing healthcare reform.
No one has put forth an argument that doesn't cut both ways.
You, Skip8282, haven't even put forward any semblance of an argument yet you continue to accuse me of failing to address this imaginary argument of yours.
Could you simply quote your argument, I can't find anything resembling a proper argument in your posts.
Seriously.
The Luke
Your arguments in general are completely off base.
Military/Teachers/Government workers receive healthcare that also covers their children. This is part of the package. The government employees provide a service and get compensated in return for that service. Private sector also offers health insurance, also covers children, etc.
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Your arguments in general are completely off base.
Military/Teachers/Government workers receive healthcare that also covers their children. This is part of the package. The government employees provide a service and get compensated in return for that service. Private sector also offers health insurance, also covers children, etc.
...you are missing MY point.
How do kids WITHOUT parents get such coverage?
Generalizations are a poor method of discussing complex issues.
Maybe try ANSWERING some of these questions?
...and which healthcare coverage offering jobs would you recommend to an orphaned child?
...how do the handicapped get a healthcare coverage offering job?
...how do those born with a disease/condition ever beat the "pre-existing condition" exclusions?
...can single, childless soldiers donate their dependants coverage to some needy woman and her kids? (like Jeebus would)
grab an umbrella,
You need to re-read my previous posts in this thread, read them carefully and slowly. Then come back with a detailed critique and I'll attempt to answer each point.
The Luke
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...you are missing MY point.
How do kids WITHOUT parents get such coverage?
Generalizations are a poor method of discussing complex issues.
Maybe try ANSWERING some of these questions?
grab an umbrella,
You need to re-read my previous posts in this thread, read them carefully and slowly. Then come back with a detailed critique and I'll attempt to answer each point.
The Luke
I will answer them in the order you asked them.
1. Orphans as you describe them can go to one of several places.
a. Live with a new family(get insurance from new parents)
b. Group home. Insurance provided.
2. It's illegal to discriminate against handicapped in the process of hiring, and most desk jobs offer health insurance. When your employer has group insurance, denying from pre existing conditions is illegal.
3. Read above question. Get a job with group health insurance. Or a lot of states have high risk insurance pools. Or start your own business and become a group yourself, etc.
4. Obviously no they cannot.
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...eh, what argument would that be? You haven't proffered a cogent argument.
...this kind of defensiveness would seem to indicate that YOU are avoiding the issue. I merely pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the argument put forth by those opposing healthcare reform.
No one has put forth an argument that doesn't cut both ways.
You, Skip8282, haven't even put forward any semblance of an argument yet you continue to accuse me of failing to address this imaginary argument of yours.
Could you simply quote your argument, I can't find anything resembling a proper argument in your posts.
Seriously.
The Luke
You've been given the arguments. Again, you just don't agree with them and you're not bright enough to make that distinction.
And again, why are you crying about something that has absolutely no effect on you?
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1. Orphans as you describe them can go to one of several places.
a. Live with a new family(get insurance from new parents)
b. Group home. Insurance provided.
...isn't there a 17% chance the new parents won't have healthcare?
...isn't there a 21% chance that they will be denied coverage when they make a claim, even if they have health insurance?
2. It's illegal to discriminate against handicapped in the process of hiring, and most desk jobs offer health insurance. When your employer has group insurance, denying from pre existing conditions is illegal.
...the military was proffered by many in this thread as the easiest route to taxpayer-funded government-run socialist healthcare coverage.
Guess which employer is exempted from the anti-discrimination provisions?
Remember, at the current rate at which employers are finagling their way around employee healthcare provisions (or just dropping them completely), by 2050 NO ONE except government workers and servicemen will have any employer provided healthcare at all.
Even if you get such coverage, 21% of the time you are paying your premiums in vain as you will be denied coverage when you claim.
3. Read above question. Get a job with group health insurance. Or a lot of states have high risk insurance pools. Or start your own business and become a group yourself, etc.
...and if you are unemployed? Like 19% of Americans currently? (www.shadowstats.com)
...what if you can't afford the premiums offered to your high-risk group?
...what if you get such coverage, but are one of the 21% who are denied coverage when they claim?
Dude, it's pretty obvious that you are too ill informed to have a respectable opinion. Maybe turn off the FOX News, do your own research and learn to think for yourself.
The Luke
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You've been given the arguments. Again, you just don't agree with them and you're not bright enough to make that distinction.
And again, why are you crying about something that has absolutely no effect on you?
...that's a three line post, so I think everyone can see that you haven't quoted this argument you claim to have put forward, neither have you stated or re-stated such an argument.
Again, what is your argument? I can't be expected to answer arguments that haven't been made.
The Luke
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...isn't there a 17% chance the new parents won't have healthcare?
...isn't there a 21% chance that they will be denied coverage when they make a claim, even if they have health insurance?
...the military was proffered by many in this thread as the easiest route to taxpayer-funded government-run socialist healthcare coverage.
Guess which employer is exempted from the anti-discrimination provisions?
Remember, at the current rate at which employers are finagling their way around employee healthcare provisions (or just dropping them completely), by 2050 NO ONE except government workers and servicemen will have any employer provided healthcare at all.
Even if you get such coverage, 21% of the time you are paying your premiums in vain as you will be denied coverage when you claim.
...and if you are unemployed? Like 19% of Americans currently? (www.shadowstats.com)
...what if you can't afford the premiums offered to your high-risk group?
...what if you get such coverage, but are one of the 21% who are denied coverage when they claim?
Dude, it's pretty obvious that you are too ill informed to have a respectable opinion. Maybe turn off the FOX News, do your own research and learn to think for yourself.
The Luke
Ahh, statistics. Blindly quote them without any regard for the information behind them. I love it.
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Ahh, statistics. Blindly quote them without any regard for the information behind them. I love it.
...at least use the "Lies, damn lies and statistics" quote.
I mean, if you're hoping to make a witty comment without any actual content or adding to the debate... why not try to seem classy.
Unless... unless of course you intended to elaborate?
The Luke
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I don't know how much more simple this can be.
Remember the requirement: a valid argument why veterans/servicemen should be allowed to extend their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare coverage to their children and dependants, which DOES NOT similarly make the case for other groups.
The Luke
We've been over this. Healthcare, for the service men/women and their families, is provided as a benefit of their job, not as a right. Just as if you worked for Lowe's, Dell, Microsoft, or whoever, you can get healthcare for your family.
Military service is not the prerequisite, having a job that offers health benefits is.
And therein lies the problem, a lot of companies won't or can't provide it. So, now we're back to whether or not it should be a fundamental human right and the government should get involved.
Then you simply go off into tangents about holes in our healthcare although you can't point to a single orphan in this country going without it.
If you want to discuss your OTHER arguments, I agree, there are too many people in our system who fall through the cracks. Too many who are denied health coverage for pre-existing conditions and way, way too little has been done by our government to fix the problems. It's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards a government run healthcare plan.
But, your comparison of one group has it so everyone should is just nonsense.
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...at least use the "Lies, damn lies and statistics" quote.
I mean, if you're hoping to make a witty comment without any actual content or adding to the debate... why not try to seem classy.
Unless... unless of course you intended to elaborate?
The Luke
The stats you quoted may infact be true. But you have to look at why certain things were denied. Paperwork errors, procedures that weren't needed, etc.
If you think that all that will magically be resolved by instituting nationalized healthcare, then I got some nice beachfront property in Arizona that I'm looking to sell.
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The stats you quoted may infact be true. But you have to look at why certain things were denied. Paperwork errors, procedures that weren't needed, etc.
...and here I was thinking the HMOs were making just making exorbitant profits for providing no real tangible service to society.
You sound like a public relations (propaganda) spokesman for the health insurance industry.
The Luke
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Military service is not the prerequisite, having a job that offers health benefits is.
...yeah, I read that. But it's hardly what I was asking for: a reason why certain people get free healthcare that doesn't equally apply to all those who don't.
Sorry, I thought you were being dismissive and evasive... seems you simply don't understand.
The Luke
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...yeah, I read that. But it's hardly what I was asking for: a reason why certain people get free healthcare that doesn't equally apply to all those who don't.
Sorry, I thought you were being dismissive and evasive... seems you simply don't understand.
The Luke
ITS NOT FREE HEALTHCARE.
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ITS NOT FREE HEALTHCARE.
...I know, it's technically taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
But hey, that's what we Europeans mean when we say "free healthcare".
The Luke
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...I know, it's technically taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
But hey, that's what we Europeans mean when we say "free healthcare".
The Luke
In exchange for work, the military provides its employees and their families healthcare.
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...I know, it's technically taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
But hey, that's what we Europeans mean when we say "free healthcare".
The Luke
Its not free as in they work for it brain child
do ppl who work for a private company and recieve health care from them get free health care?
you dont seem to understand that the same options that are afforded to soldiers etc. are afforded to citizens that work for public companies as well.
you seem to want to justify giving healthcare to all b/c a soldier has health care they work for ::)
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In exchange for work, the military provides its employees and their families healthcare.
...you're right.
The soldiers work for their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare... their wives and kids get it for free.
The Luke
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...you're right.
The soldiers work for their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare... their wives and kids get it for free.
The Luke
You're laughable.
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...yeah, I read that. But it's hardly what I was asking for: a reason why certain people get free healthcare that doesn't equally apply to all those who don't.
Sorry, I thought you were being dismissive and evasive... seems you simply don't understand.
The Luke
Again, you just don't agree with them and you're not bright enough to make that distinction.
And again, why are you crying about something that has absolutely no effect on you? (I love how you keep dodging this one)
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...you're right.
The soldiers work for their taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare... their wives and kids get it for free.
The Luke
so do other ppl who recieve health care through their work their children get covered as well...
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See how much progress we're making in this thread...
After all the reguritated Republican propoganda, after all the parroted soundbytes... after several pages of continuosly calling the healthcare reform naysayers on their misconceptions and challenging their illogical preconceptions... finally, finally we've have reached some agreement:
-soldiers (and some government workers) DO receive taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-the spouses and children of soldiers DO receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-dependants of soldiers need make NO contribution whatsoever towards their FREE socialised healthcare
Now that we are all agreed on that, I assume it will be an easy step from this point of agreement to reach a consensus that all of the above is a good thing (if you disagree, you dont support the troops!).
And seeing as there is no good reason why some Americans (dependants of sodiers) should receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare WITHOUT ever working for it (or ever even working at all), while coverage is denied other Americans.
I think the only logical conclusion is that healthcare reform (even universial healthcare) poses no real danger to the status quo, considering:
-Americans over 65 already have taxpayer subsidised government-run socialised healthcare
-American veterans already have FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-the dependants of soldiers (can) already have FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare WITHOT ever enlisting in the army; WITHOUT ever paying taxes; WITHOUT ever woking a day in their lives
So what's the problem?
The Luke
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first of all its not free
giving health care to all would be free as they arent working for it soldiers are...
families are included by employers in their healthcare to workers here in the US try and understand that.
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first of all its not free
giving health care to all would be free as they arent working for it soldiers are...
families are included by employers in their healthcare to workers here in the US try and understand that.
...well then, we agree.
SOLDIERS actually WORK for their healthcare.
The FAMILIES of soldiers (who work for their healthcare), the FAMILIES get FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
The families of soldiers don't have to work for this free socialised healthcare. The families don't have to enlist to get this free socialised healthcare. The families don't even have to work for this free socialised healthcare, many have never worked a day in their lives. The families don't have to pay taxes for this free socialised healthcare they receive, many have never paid any taxes in their lives.
Just once we are clear eactly what we are agreeing on...
..and we do agree.
Soldiers WORK for their healthcare... soldiers dependants sponge free healthcare from taxpayers without ever contributing to society.
The Luke
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...well then, we agree.
SOLDIERS actually WORK for their healthcare.
The FAMILIES of soldiers (who work for their healthcare), the FAMILIES get FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
The families of soldiers don't have to work for this free socialised healthcare. The families don't have to enlist to get this free socialised healthcare. The families don't even have to work for this free socialised healthcare, many have never worked a day in their lives. The families don't have to pay taxes for this free socialised healthcare they receive, many have never paid any taxes in their lives.
Just once we are clear eactly what we are agreeing on...
..and we do agree.
Soldiers WORK for their healthcare... soldiers dependants sponge free healthcare from taxpayers without ever contributing to society.
The Luke
what a jack ass you are
its part of the soldiers health care benefits that they include their family if it helps you to look at all of the family as one do that dip shit
the children of private company employees dont contribute either you want to cut their health care? no b/c guess what that was the agreed upon contract...
get the fuck over it
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See how much progress we're making in this thread...
After all the reguritated Republican propoganda, after all the parroted soundbytes... after several pages of continuosly calling the healthcare reform naysayers on their misconceptions and challenging their illogical preconceptions... finally, finally we've have reached some agreement:
-soldiers (and some government workers) DO receive taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-the spouses and children of soldiers DO receive FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare
-dependants of soldiers need make NO contribution whatsoever towards their FREE socialised healthcare
The Luke
We came to this agreement 2 pages ago. Obviously shot way over your head.
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its part of the soldiers health care benefits that they include their family if it helps you to look at all of the family as one do that dip shit
We came to this agreement 2 pages ago. Obviously shot way over your head.
...so this is the healthcare system that doesn't need to be reformed?
You get healthcare based on who your daddy is, and whether your daddy has family coverage?
So your objection to reform is that it might be "socialist"... and you prefer the current system which is best described as "feudalist"... or is it "fascist"?
The Luke
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...so this is the healthcare system that doesn't need to be reformed?
You get healthcare based on who your daddy is, and whether your daddy has family coverage?
So your objection to reform is that it might be "socialist"... and you prefer the current system which is best described as "feudalist"... or is it "fascist"?
The Luke
hahahah the majority of americans are for health care reform you dumb fuck get a damn clue
we simply arent for govt single payer health care or paying for another govt hand out programs is all...
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...so this is the healthcare system that doesn't need to be reformed?
You get healthcare based on who your daddy is, and whether your daddy has family coverage?
So your objection to reform is that it might be "socialist"... and you prefer the current system which is best described as "feudalist"... or is it "fascist"?
The Luke
Nope, told you earlier in this thread that we need severe health reform and that I'm leaning towards socialized medicine. Read, THINK, post, repeat...
I take issue with your argument that because the military has a benefit, all should have that benefit.
Again, just because the POTUS and his FAMILY have access to a TAX PAYER FUNDED personal chef, does not mean that everybody is entitled to a tax payer funded personal chef.
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we simply arent for govt single payer health care or paying for another govt hand out programs is all...
...good idea.
You wouldn't want to end up like the first 36 countries in this list:
WHO World Health Report ranking of the top heathcare systems by country (2000)
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
...to the best of my knowledge America is the ONLY country on this list that was smart enough to avoid the dangers of universial government run healthcare.
Luckily, nearly 80% of Americans now enjoy a 78% chance of being covered should the worst ever happen... and thanks to the efficiencies of the free market all they have to do is pay roughly three times in premiums what the French pay in taxes.
You guys sure are smart... pay through the nose all your life, then roll two dice... if either one comes up snake-eye you go bankrupt (and untreated).
The Luke
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Again, just because the POTUS and his FAMILY have access to a TAX PAYER FUNDED personal chef, does not mean that everybody is entitled to a tax payer funded personal chef.
...maybe that's the problem. Those with good coverage have no incentive to change the system.
If the French President needs an operation, he goes into the same system as everyone else... on the same priority list as everyone else... gets the same care as everyone else.
France has the best healthcare system in the world, and it costs them roughly 60% of what America (37th best) spends... and only 80% of Americans are covered, only 78% of the time.
A health insuance premium payer in the US pays approximately 3 times what the average Frenchman pays via taxes for his healthcare.
The PROBLEM in the US is inequality... some have benefits others DON'T have.
The Luke
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LOL nothing you have said cant be resolved with simple health care reform and not govt single payer health care dip shit congrats on making my point
the only reason to go to a single payer is to grant another govt hand out program billions in tax payer money...
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...maybe that's the problem. Those with good coverage have no incentive to change the system.
If the French President needs an operation, he goes into the same system as everyone else... on the same priority list as everyone else... gets the same care as everyone else.
The Luke
I think we can agree here. Our law makers like to make themselves exempt and give themselves ridiculous perks. 12 years of the Bush's and not a single health care reform. And I think there's a good chance that because it didn't affect them, they didn't give a damn.
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the only reason to go to a single payer is to grant another govt hand out program billions in tax payer money...
...and those billions should go to HMOs with their 30% overheads; 80% coverage; 21% denial of coverage; "pre-existing condition" exclusions; cherry-picking of cutomers; dropping of unprofitable customers and punitive premiums.
...it would be terrible if those billions went to doctors; hospitals and a Medicare style system with its 4% overhead; universial coverage; no denial of coverage; no "pre-existing conditions" exclusion; no cherry-picking of customers; no dropping of coverage and premiums so low HMOs couldn't compete.
Medicare works... but is underfunded.
The VA works... but is underfunded.
Medicaid works... but is underfunded.
With single payer the government programs get all the profitable healthy young working people that the HMOs have been cherry-picking and fleecing (then refusing to cover when they get too old, or too sick). Funding problem averted.
It boils down to a simple question...
Do you want to pay wholesale (single payer) or retail (HMOs) prices?
The Luke
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...and those billions should go to HMOs with their 30% overheads; 80% coverage; 21% denial of coverage; "pre-existing condition" exclusions; cherry-picking of cutomers; dropping of unprofitable customers and punitive premiums.
...it would be terrible if those billions went to doctors; hospitals and a Medicare style system with its 4% overhead; universial coverage; no denial of coverage; no "pre-existing conditions" exclusion; no cherry-picking of customers; no dropping of coverage and premiums so low HMOs couldn't compete.
Medicare works... but is underfunded.
The VA works... but is underfunded.
Medicaid works... but is underfunded.
With single payer the government programs get all the profitable healthy young working people that the HMOs have been cherry-picking and fleecing (then refusing to cover when they get too old, or too sick). Funding problem averted.
It boils down to a simple question...
Do you want to pay wholesale (single payer) or retail (HMOs) prices?
The Luke
again nothing youve stated cant be solved with health care reform by itself without universal health care
so why go to universal?
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again nothing youve stated cant be solved with health care reform by itself without universal health care
so why go to universal?
...it's cheaper, doesn't discriminate and stops profiteering.
Also, every county with better healthcare than America uses universial coverage.
The Luke
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...it's cheaper, doesn't discriminate and stops profiteering.
Also, every county with better healthcare than America uses universial coverage.
The Luke
reform will lower health care cost, can eliminate discrimination and govt run programs especially one as big as this one have to work for profit or the loss and burden on the tax payers would be enormous.
universal health care isnt synonomous with better health care then the US we can improve with simple reform and not universal.
now that this issue is resolved
please answer skips question why the fuck do you even care?
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reform will lower health care cost, can eliminate discrimination and govt run programs especially one as big as this one have to work for profit or the loss and burden on the tax payers would be enormous.
...what makes you think this?
If a universial system just breaks even (via taxes) then there is NO "burden" on the taxpayer, they just get the healthcare they paid for... Americans currently have to pay for their (shitty) healthcare AND the exorbitat costs and profits of HMOs.
This is basic intoductory economics... how can you believe otherwise?
universal health care isnt synonomous with better health care then the US we can improve with simple reform and not universal.
...what makes you think this?
As per the list I posted, the top 36 healthcare sytems in the world are universial healthcare systems. That's pretty synonymous.
One thing is for sure, universial healthcare is certainly synonymous with better healthcare if you define "better" as "Better than America's".
Where do these blatant lies and mistruthes come from? How can rational adults believe such patently absurd notions? Who is feeding you this propoganda?
Turn off your television... FOX News is lying to you.
The Luke
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...what makes you think this?
If a universial system just breaks even (via taxes) then there is NO "burden" on the taxpayer, they just get the healthcare they paid for... Americans currently have to pay for their (shitty) healthcare AND the exorbitat costs and profits of HMOs.
This is basic intoductory economics... how can you believe otherwise?
...what makes you think this?
As per the list I posted, the top 36 healthcare sytems in the world are universial healthcare systems. That's pretty synonymous.
One thing is for sure, universial healthcare is certainly synonymous with better healthcare if you define "better" as "Better than America's".
Where do these blatant lies and mistruthes come from? How can rational adults believe such patently absurd notions? Who is feeding you this propoganda?
Turn off your television... FOX News is lying to you.
The Luke
LOL and what makes you think health care run by the US govt will break even? ::) apparently you dont know much about our govt programs lol
LOL again why do you care?
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LOL and what makes you think health care run by the US govt will break even? ::) apparently you dont know much about our govt programs lol
...why do you refuse to believe it might be efficient?
It's pretty efficient in 36 other countries? Even if it cost twice as much as the French system, it would still work out cheaper for the average American (the same cost, but spread over everyone via taxes... not just the pemium payers).
Maybe you should consider the source fom which you gleamed such a viewpoint...?
No rational person could develop such an opinion from independent research and logical analysis, as such beliefs are entirely at odds with reality.
So your opinion on this matter is obviously some learned conditioning or propoganda... so who supplied it?
Well, who benefits? The HMOs? Corporate culture? Those who profit from the staus quo?
Remember, if you buy into the propoganda... if you accept it as your own opinion, your own thoughts... you aren't just controlled by the propogandists... they own you.
FOX News is lying to you... boycott it.
The Luke
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...why do you refuse to believe it might be efficient?
It's pretty efficient in 36 other countries? Even if it cost twice as much as the French system, it would still work out cheaper for the average American (the same cost, but spread over everyone via taxes... not just the pemium payers).
Maybe you should consider the source fom which you gleamed such a viewpoint...?
No rational person could develop such an opinion from independent research and logical analysis, as such beliefs are entirely at odds with reality.
name one us govt run program that runs in the black? go ahead, now name the govt programs that run in the red go ahead that will take a while
you know nothing of our situation so stfu
its common fucking sense that a public option will drive private insurers out of business, its our track record that it will run in the red what else do you need dumb ass?
you still never asnwered why you care or addressed the point that all your problems can be addressed with health care reform and do not need a universal system
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name one us govt run program that runs in the black? go ahead, now name the govt programs that run in the red go ahead that will take a while
...running in the black or the red is merely a matter of budgeting isn't it? An arbitrary budget could put ANY program into either the red or the black. Ten bucks for defense, a trillion bucks for sewage treatment. Things cost what they cost, waste is a separate issue to budget targets.
The simple fact is America spends neary double what France spends on healthcare. Fact.
But lots of American government-run programs DO run efficiently... Medicare is a prime example of this, and pertinent to this discussion.
With only elderly problem customers (65+), and no "pre-existing condition" opt out clause, medicare still manages to run with only a 4% overhead... the HMOs run at 30%.
Now I know Medicare is going bankrupt long term, but that is only because HMOs cherry-pick the profitable customers. With the same customers, the same demographic pressures and the same inability to cherry-pick customers or deny claims; HMOs go bust even faster than Medicare, due to their exhorbitant overheads.
So where does this "Government cant do nuthin' right" mantra come from?
From the corporations who profit from privitization via their bought and paid for politicians (pretty much every Republican since Reagan) and media outlets (FOX News; Rush Limbaugh; Christian groups)... perhaps?
The Luke
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...running in the black or the red is merely a matter of budgeting isn't it? An arbitrary budget could put ANY program into either the red or the black. Ten bucks for defense, a trillion bucks for sewage treatment. Things cost what they cost, waste is a separate issue to budget targets.
The simple fact is America spends neary double what France spends on healthcare. Fact.
But lots of American government-run programs DO run efficiently... Medicare is a prime example of this, and pertinent to this discussion.
With only elderly problem customers (65+), and no "pre-existing condition" opt out clause, medicare still manages to run with only a 4% overhead... the HMOs run at 30%.
Now I know Medicare is going bankrupt long term, but that is only because HMOs cherry-pick the profitable customers. With the same customers, the same demographic pressures and the same inability to cherry-pick customers or deny claims; HMOs go bust even faster than Medicare, due to their exhorbitant overheads.
So where does this "Government cant do nuthin' right" mantra come from?
From the corporations who profit from privitization via their bought and paid for politicians (pretty much every Republican since Reagan) and media outlets (FOX News; Rush Limbaugh; Christian groups)... perhaps?
this is true but the govt as a whole runs in the red so this will simply add to it
we have probably more then 2 or 3 times the population as france does...
again you havent addressed that the majority of problems can be addressed with health care reform instead of universal and why you care...
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here you go hugo apparently MSNBC is in on the fix as well... ::)
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here you go hugo apparently MSNBC is in on the fix as well... ::)
The fact of the matter is that the right is often more reluctant to prtest and march. The fact that the "right" is getting organized is a great thing and the monopoly of this type of thing by the left is OVER.
You can bet millions and millions of people are sitting home in full agreement of this and wish they were there as well.
This will only grow BTW.
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Hey genius... I wasn't talking about you... I was talking about Joe Wilson.
Because it's their job. It does not make them "special".
I easily work as hard and have just as much impact on society as your soldiers do. GTFO with you thinking you're better because you are in the military.
No, we don't work as hard as the men and women in uniform. No, we don't impact society as much as they do. Yes, they are better than both of us because of the commitment they make to serve our country.
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No, we don't work as hard as the men and women in uniform. No, we don't impact society as much as they do. Yes, they are better than both of us because of the commitment they make to serve our country.
Wrong... Thanks for playing.
Without US, there is no money for them in the first place. They wouldn't have anything.
I am not diminishing what they do... Far from it, but they have no claim to some special treatment either.
It takes everyone to have a society and a stable government... Without them, we have no defense, without our tax dollars they have no ability to perform that function.
Get it?
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Wrong... Thanks for playing.
Without US, there is no money for them in the first place. They wouldn't have anything.
I am not diminishing what they do... Far from it, but they have no claim to some special treatment either.
It takes everyone to have a society and a stable government... Without them, we have no defense, without our tax dollars they have no ability to perform that function.
Get it?
Yes we pay for the them to volunteer their lives in service of their country. Without our tax dollars we don't have the police, firefighters, or the armed forces. And without those willing to put their lives in danger, our tax dollars would give us nothing in return. No freedom. No safety. No protection.
They absolutely are entitled to "special" treatment. You volunteer to sacrifice your health and life in service to others, you're entitled to "special" treatment.
We're probably not going to agree, but they are better. Plain and simple.
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Yes we pay for the them to volunteer their lives in service of their country. Without our tax dollars we don't have the police, firefighters, or the armed forces. And without those willing to put their lives in danger, our tax dollars would give us nothing in return. No freedom. No safety. No protection.
They absolutely are entitled to "special" treatment. You volunteer to sacrifice your health and life in service to others, you're entitled to "special" treatment.
We're probably not going to agree, but they are better. Plain and simple.
This is just a sad statement to make.
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this is true but the govt as a whole runs in the red so this will simply add to it
we have probably more then 2 or 3 times the population as france does...
...your government as a whole runs in the red because of the amount of money America spends on defense/aggression. Simple fact.
Healthcare is more important to the average American and impacts their lives a lot more than undermining foreign governments in order to prolong American imperial hegemony (which only benefits the ultra-rich).
You might have two or three times the population of France (actually five times) but I wasn't claiming America already spends twice as much as the French in total, on healthcare... that figure is PER CAPITA.
Let me repeat that, America spends twice as much as France PER CAPITA on healthcare:
-France has universial coverage; America has 80% coverage
-France has zero coverage denial; America has approx 21% coverage denial
-France has effectively zero banruptcy due to sickness; sickness is the leading cause of banruptcy in America (and 66% of those bankrupted HAVE insurance)
-France spreads the cost over the population via taxes; Americans pay premiums on top of their healthcare taxes
-the French system is non-profit; $300bn a year is skimmed by American HMOs ($1,000 per American)
-France has the best healthcare system in the world (2000 WHO report); America is 37th
So stop the silly arguments about tinkering with this system... it needs overhaul; not reform.
HMOs made $300,000,000,000 in PROFITS last year: $1,000 PROFIT per man, woman and child living in the United States.
The average American family: husband, wife, two kids are spending $4,000 a year of their after-tax, disposable income just on HMO PROFITS... just PROFITS... no coverage, no costs.
Extend Medicare to the entire population (as simple as removing the "over 65" requirement) and the average American family would benefit by:
-$4,000 that goes to HMO profits
-25% of their premiums (in excess of the $4k) as Medicare overhead is 3.5%; HMOs average 30%
-full coverage, no more denials
-no "pre-existing condition" bullshit
-actual preventative care
If the average family is paying $5,000 in premiums annually that would drop to approx $750 annually, and Medicare would finally have some healthy young people to plug the demographic/funding deficit.
Make that a tax and no one can avoid paying their fair share. Problem solved.
The Luke
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If its so great over there - freaking move there!
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If its so great over there - freaking move there!
...I'm in Ireland, paying less for a years total healthcare coverage (via taxes) than you guys pay in premiums each month. We have the 19th best system in the world, despite a 4m population and a higher instance of genetic disease: alcoholism, heart disease (maybe dietary); hemochromotosis... we even have a cap on the cost of prescription drugs: the citizen only picks up the first $100 of each months prescriptions.
So I'm already freaking here.
Maybe if more than 10% of the American population actually owned passports you might have some frame of reference.
The Luke
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once again luke you have presented nothing that says we need a single payer system only that we need reform which most americans agree with...
also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?
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once again luke you have presented nothing that says we need a single payer system only that we need reform which most americans agree with...
...what service do HMOs provide?
All they do is deny coverage, and gouge customers as a middleman. Why do you need them? Americans over 65 do just fine without HMOs.
This is like volunteering to pay a 1,000% toll on your medical expenditure, in exchange for a one in five chance of being denied treatment.
That's tantamount to demanding to be allowed pay Lamborghini prices for a shitty little Fiat, then 20% of the time the paid-for car is never delivered.
Yet all you morons are shouting about this being "Freedom"!
Freedom to be robbed blind.
Corporate healthcare is shitting on you, I'd have the dignity not to lick my lips... you guys are eating the shit and insisting its ice-cream.
The Luke
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We have 300 million people of a diverse population. You have a population less than NYC that is completely homogeneous.
The two are are completely different.
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We have 300 million people of a diverse population. You have a population less than NYC that is completely homogeneous.
The two are are completely different.
...why?
A larger poplation would reduce costs, not increase them.
Do Americans need some sort of special healthcare different from the rest of the word? Our doctors are trained to treat human beings, do they need other qualifications to work on Americans?
Or could it be that your government is more firmly in the hands of greedy corporations?
Or is it that your population is so poisoned with propoganda that they don't even understand their own self interest?
The Luke
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...what service do HMOs provide?
All they do is deny coverage, and gouge customers as a middleman. Why do you need them? Americans over 65 do just fine without HMOs.
This is like volunteering to pay a 1,000% toll on your medical expenditure, in exchange for a one in five chance of being denied treatment.
That's tantamount to demanding to be allowed pay Lamborghini prices for a shitty little Fiat, then 20% of the time the paid-for car is never delivered.
Yet all you morons are shouting about this being "Freedom"!
Freedom to be robbed blind.
Corporate healthcare is shitting on you, I'd have the dignity not to lick my lips... you guys are eating the shit and insisting its ice-cream.
The Luke
AGAIN LUKE YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY REASON FOR SINGLE PAYER ONLY REFORM WHICH WE ARE IN FAVOR OF.........
also why does a non US citizen care?
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AGAIN LUKE YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY REASON FOR SINGLE PAYER ONLY REFORM WHICH WE ARE IN FAVOR OF.........
...but you don't favour single payer?
How can I put forward a reason for single payer that you will approve of?
Would you also like a good reason for something else you'd be equally against?
How about reading a little more, informing yourself of actual reality and thinking for yourself... because it will free you from corporate mind control.
The only argument for single payer socialised care is that it is better than every other system in every way:
-cheaper
-better
-cheaper
-universal
-cheaper
-equitable
-did I mention cheaper? Much much cheaper!
Give me a GOOD argument against it? Something more substantiial than "USA! USA! USA!"
I hear lots of criticisms of me personally and lots of pointed questions, but I dont hear any counter arguments?
The Luke
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we can lower the cost with reform, we can limit shady business practices with reform, nothing you have said other than its universal cant be solved with reform
so the only reason to use a universal system is to create another govt program...
If you could give some arguements for it than fine but all you do is spout cost...we can address that with reform
healthcare is not a right
the program will likely run in the red
raised taxes
health care for illegals when obama pushes for amnesty
lowered standards in treatment/rationed care
NO OPTIONS
Longer waits for care
etc. etc. etc...
I dont think ppl have been going on about america simply want to know why you care being a non american?
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so the only reason to use a universal system is to create another govt program...
...why not simply remove the "over 65" requirement from Medicare and use that already established program?
Medicare is taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare... yet ignorant people actually on Medicare are protesting "Socialism". Medicare works just fine, it might be underfunded, but that's because it doesn't have any healthy young people. Easily fixed.
Medicare is efficient too... running at 3.5% overhead against the HMO 30% overhead, and it doesn't deny coverage.
If you could give some arguements for it than fine but all you do is spout cost...we can address that with reform
How?
The HMOs make $300 bn a year in PROFITS... thats $1,000 per man woman and child, and 50 million Americans don't carry any of that cost meaning Premium payers have to foot the grand per capita burden for both the uninsured and the over 65.
If you pay a healthcare premium, probably $1,500 of it (per person) is pure HMO profit, what you pay above that is 25% overhead and 75% actual healthcare cost.
Reform has to start with you fools deciding just how much toll your HMO overlords deserve for allowing you buy your own healthcare.
How much of your paycheck does a HMO deserve for denying 20% of your claims? They don't offer any other service, so answer that question first.
healthcare is not a right
...why not? It is where I live. Canada and most of Europe too.
Are you afraid of giving rights to minorities?
Or are you afraid of having more rights yourself?
the program will likely run in the red
...do you profit from the HMOs operating in the black?
Did you buy shares in a HMO so you could share in the profit they make denying your coverage?
Do you enjoy buying mansions, sportscars and private jets for HMO execs?
raised taxes
Yes, taxes will be raised.
The new tax will be your current healthcare premium, minus $1,000 per covered member of your family (HMO profits), minus 25% of whatever is left over (HMO overhead). But you won't have to pay your premium any more.
Remember, any number gets smaller when you deduct several thousand from it, then knock off 25%.
health care for illegals when obama pushes for amnesty
...and this is bad because your taxpayer dollars aren't already being used to treat them inefficiently in ERs?
The taxpayer actualy benefits via preventative care (cost saver) and illegals actually buying newly affordable coverage themselves.
Besides with the HMOs out of business, the government can address these problems with the billions of taxpayer dollars it used to pay out directly subsidising HMOs.
lowered standards in treatment/rationed care
NO OPTIONS
Longer waits for care
...all valid concerns, IF you didn't already run a 20% risk of an infinite wait; followed by bankruptcy; followed by homelessness; followed by a painful untreated death.
At least with Russian Roulette your chances are 1 in 6 and you only risk your own life... not making you family homeless too.
My "longer wait" to see my doctor is usually that afternoon or maybe the next day... in an emergency situation I get treatment in the same order you do (according to priority in the emergency room).
Isn't the peace of mind of universial coverage worth an extra weeks wait for elective surgery?
tonymctones,
I know you've been conditioned to believe these lies, and I don't doubt your perceived sincerity.
But these are the irrational fears of a child. Or a simpleton.
The Luke
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luke condense that shit or at least put it in a easy to read format i feel like im going to have a seizure trying to read that shit.
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luke condense that shit or at least put it in a easy to read format i feel like im going to have a seizure trying to read that shit.
...it's just your post answered line by line, point by point.
No lengthy paragraphs, with line gaps for new concepts... it's laid out specifically to be easy to read.
Read each sentence/short paragraph, pause, think about it, then read the next point/question which builds upon the previous argument/comment.
Maybe some reading practice is in order?
Just kidding, but I would question if you are actually looking for a reason NOT to read it because you would prefer to avoid the logic of the arguments.
The Luke
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Maybe some reading practice is in order?
The Luke
YES, COWARD. SOME READING PRACTICE IS IN ORDER. NOW, PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.
Again, what does this have to do with you? Or Ireland for that matter? Why do feel compelled to interfere with our affairs?
And again, why are you crying about something that has absolutely no effect on you? (I love how you keep dodging this one)
also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?
also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?
also why does a non US citizen care?
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Let's hear it......bitch. WHY ARE YOU SO COMPELLED TO INTERFERE WITH THE AFFAIRS OF ANOTHER NATION??
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Let's hear it......bitch. WHY ARE YOU SO COMPELLED TO INTERFERE WITH THE AFFAIRS OF ANOTHER NATION??
...interfering with the affairs of another nation? WTF? Is that a treasonable offense? Will I be going to Gitmo? Gitmo being the only region of the United States and its controlled territories with universial socialised healthcare. Ironic.
I thought I was just educating some chronically misinformed and abused message board readers as to why they are so bady abused by posting cogent arguments and addressing the issue?
Is this a thread hijack?
Are we moving on to ad hominem attacks now because you guys can't argue your side of the discussion?
Or am I maybe forcing you to question what FOX News told you to think?
I understand that can be frightening... when you've unquestionably accepted and believed something for a long time and then have to consider it logically only to find your own values wanting. You feel betrayed and want to lash out.
Don't worry, it'll be okay... welcome to actual real-world reality. My name is Luke, I'm here for you.
The Luke
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Don't worry, it'll be okay... welcome to actual real-world reality. My name is Luke, I'm here for you.
The Luke
I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
...meltdown averted?
The Luke
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lol the luke is totally destroying these incredibly stupid americans.
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lol the luke is totally destroying these incredibly stupid americans.
Eh? Let me guess...more Eurotrash who spends all his time on an AMERICAN website. How sad your country must be that you have over 7000 posts on an AMERICAN website?
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Eh? Let me guess...more Eurotrash who spends all his time on an AMERICAN website. How sad your country must be that you have over 7000 posts on an AMERICAN website?
lol..nice logic.
sounds like you're an angry and completely ignorant american set on digging your on own grave. :D
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lol..nice logic.
sounds like you're an angry and completely ignorant american set on digging your on own grave. :D
Sounds like you are a europeeon who weighs 100 lbs wet and doesnt even have a job.
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Eh? Let me guess...more Eurotrash who spends all his time on an AMERICAN website. How sad your country must be that you have over 7000 posts on an AMERICAN website?
...oh, I'm sorry... is this the Ahmuriken interwebwork?
The Luke
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...oh, I'm sorry... is this the Ahmuriken interwebwork?
The Luke
i guess thats his standard reply when he cant come up with any rational arguments.
u know...just like...'obama is the new hitler' , 'commie', 'socialism' etc
sad situation in usa, so much ignorance and so many lies.
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i guess thats his standard reply when he cant come up with any rational arguments.
u know...just like...'obama is the new hitler' , 'commie', 'socialism' etc
sad situation in usa, so much ignorance and so many lies.
...doesn't the Book of Revelations identify socialised healthcare as the Antichrist?
Amazes me that people can be so confident of a worldview gleaned from only one source. Read a second book people.
The Luke
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i guess thats his standard reply when he cant come up with any rational arguments.
u know...just like...'obama is the new hitler' , 'commie', 'socialism' etc
sad situation in usa, so much ignorance and so many lies.
Well maybe Americans don't want to live in the welfare state like you Eurpeans do. I have an idea how about you guys start paying for your own defense, that way we can cut our defense budget.
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i guess thats his standard reply when he cant come up with any rational arguments.
u know...just like...'obama is the new hitler' , 'commie', 'socialism' etc
sad situation in usa, so much ignorance and so many lies.
And what Eden on earth do you live in?
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Well maybe Americans don't want to live in the welfare state like you Eurpeans do. I have an idea how about you guys start paying for your own defense, that way we can cut our defense budget.
you do know that 'europe' isn't a country? :D
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you do know that 'europe' isn't a country? :D
Nice way to avoid the question dipshit, you want me to list the countries that make up the continent or Europe? But with the EU and all you will soon enough be one country ruled by central eurpean government
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you do know that 'europe' isn't a country? :D
From what I have seen, europe has nothing to brag about unless we are taking about german beer or swedish chicks.
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lol..nice logic.
sounds like you're an angry and completely ignorant american set on digging your on own grave. :D
I guess I'd be ashamed if I were you too. Your own country sucks so bad you've got to come to an AMERICAN board so you can cry, piss, and moan. Guess that's part of being a loser socialist.
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...oh, I'm sorry... is this the Ahmuriken interwebwork?
The Luke
Damn Luke. I thought you had some tiny, little, small amount of intellect. I just took for granted that you knew the difference between the web and a website.
My apologies.
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Damn Luke. I thought you had some tiny, little, small amount of intellect. I just took for granted that you knew the difference between the web and a website.
My apologies.
Must have missed the "Americans only" warning.
I actually don't understand your point of view... is it that you can actually counter some of my arguments, or are you countering ALL of them by pointing out that I am not an American?
In this thread I have overlooked poor spelling; bad grammar and atrocious syntax, all valid reasons to dismiss the malformed musings of idiotic posters, in an effort to counter actual arguments put forward with actual counter arguments.
But if you can win an argument in the US by simply raising someone's nationality... well then I can end this debate here and now by pointing out that Americans pay (just about) twice as much per capita for healthcare as the French do. The French have the best system in the world. Americans have a one-in-five chance of having no coverage and a one in five chance of receiving no care even if the have coverage, and the care they receive is rated 37th in the world (2000 WHO Report).
So, as the dumbest healthcare customers on the planet... the opinions of Americans regarding healthcare should be ignored.
The Luke
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I guess I'd be ashamed if I were you too. Your own country sucks so bad you've got to come to an AMERICAN board so you can cry, piss, and moan. Guess that's part of being a loser socialist.
i must have missed the 'only for americans' sign when i signed up on getbig.
ahh, i was waiting for 'socialist'. ;D
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From what I have seen, europe has nothing to brag about unless we are taking about german beer or swedish chicks.
ahh so you are among the 20% of americans who have a passport or have you been watching fox news ;D
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ahh so you are among the 20% of americans who have a passport or have you been watching fox news ;D
..Brevity, the soul of wit. Excellent retort.
The Luke
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ahh so you are among the 20% of americans who have a passport or have you been watching fox news ;D
I dont watch tv other than when the yankees game is on. BTW - why are you europeeons so infatuated with how many people have passports?
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..Brevity, the soul of wit. Excellent retort.
The Luke
Your just jealous, you see we kicked the British out 233 years ago
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Your just jealous, you see we kicked the British out 233 years ago
...Ireland and Britain are separate countries (well technically Britain is three countries).
We fought the British for 700 years and have been independent since 1922.
The Luke
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...Ireland and Britain are separate countries (well technically Britain is three countries).
We fought the British for 700 years and have been independent since 1922.
The Luke
It only took the colonials 8 years ;D
And by the way the British had troops in Northern Ireland until 2007
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It only took the colonials 8 years ;D
And by the way the British had troops in Northern Ireland until 2007
...they still have troops in Northern Ireland, and why not, it's a separate county which is part of the United Kingdom, not part of the Republic of Ireland.
Didn't you earn about this growing up in the Mental Institution?
I'm Irish born and raised but I still know Alaska and Hawai are states of the US. Did you know that?
The Luke
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Must have missed the "Americans only" warning.
I actually don't understand your point of view... is it that you can actually counter some of my arguments, or are you countering ALL of them by pointing out that I am not an American?
We've had our say on the topic of this thread. We're talking about the logic behind hating America so much but spending endless time on an American website. Try and keep up Luke.
In this thread I have overlooked poor spelling; bad grammar and atrocious syntax, all valid reasons to dismiss the malformed musings of idiotic posters...
You just owned yourself. BTW, when using proper grammer, you do not start a sentence with "..."
These scrounging soldiers children, and the orphans of soldiers are getting free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare.
The Luke
It's "soldier's".
After all the reguritated Republican propoganda, after all the parroted soundbytes... after several pages of continuosly calling the healthcare reform naysayers on their misconceptions and challenging their illogical preconceptions... finally, finally we've have reached some agreement:
-the dependants of soldiers (can) already have FREE taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare WITHOT ever enlisting in the army; WITHOUT ever paying taxes; WITHOUT ever woking a day in their lives
It's "regurgitated", not "reguritated".
It's "propaganda", not "propoganda".
It's "continuously", not "continuosly".
It's "without", not "withot".
A health insuance premium payer in the US pays approximately 3 times what the average Frenchman pays via taxes for his healthcare.
The Luke
The word you're looking for here is "insurance".
With single payer the government programs get all the profitable healthy young working people that the HMOs have been cherry-picking and fleecing (then refusing to cover when they get too old, or too sick). Funding problem averted.
The Luke
It's "HMO's" here.
If a universial system just breaks even (via taxes) then there is NO "burden" on the taxpayer, they just get the healthcare they paid for... Americans currently have to pay for their (shitty) healthcare AND the exorbitat costs and profits of HMOs.
The Luke
It's "exorbitant" not "exorbitat".
Now, by YOUR VERY OWN LOGIC, we can dismiss your malformed musings and idiotic postings.
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It's "regurgitated", not "reguritated".
It's "propaganda", not "propoganda".
It's "continuously", not "continuosly".
It's "without", not "withot".
The word you're looking for here is "insurance".
It's "exorbitant" not "exorbitat"
...yeah, sorry about that, switched over to a laptop with a very insensitive keyboard, most of those are simple omissions. My apologies. I'll proofread as I go from now on.
Now, by YOUR VERY OWN LOGIC, we can dismiss your malformed musings and idiotic postings.
...well I suppose you could if I actually had used that as a reason to dismiss other people's arguments. Rather I was making the point that I had overlooked such spelling mistakes. So you aren't using my logic against me, just your poor reading comprehension.
Read the comment in it's proper context:
In this thread I have overlooked poor spelling; bad grammar and atrocious syntax, all valid reasons to dismiss the malformed musings of idiotic posters, in an effort to counter actual arguments put forward with actual counter arguments.
...do you have an actual argument?
I'm neither an idiot, nor are my arguments the malformed musings of such, but if you would prefer to stop reading and turn the volume all the way up on your FOX News, I won't be offended.
It's "HMO's" here.
It's "soldier's".
...actually, no it's not. The relational gentive apostrophe only applies to genitve (possessive) case PROPER NOUNS.
Besides, in the instance of my use of "HMOs" which you cited, the original use is simple plural, not even the genitive. Plurals do not require apostrophes whether they are proper nouns or acronyms.
Again, I apologise for the spelling errors. Hope it didn't put anyone off reading that post.
The Luke
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...actually, no it's not. The relational gentive apostrophe only applies to genitve (possessive) case PROPER NOUNS.
Besides, in the instance of my use of "HMOs" which you cited, the original use is simple plural, not even the genitive. Plurals do not require apostrophes whether they are proper nouns or acronyms.
The Luke
No, it doesn't. It applies to any NOUN, common or proper.
Don't believe me? Educate yourself...
http://www.write101.com/sample.htm
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No, it doesn't. It applies to any NOUN, common or proper.
Don't believe me? Educate yourself...
http://www.write101.com/sample.htm
...maybe in American, not in English.
What's next? Arguing color is correct but colour is not?
I write my posts in English... I don't care if that doesn't traslate into Ebonics perfectly.
The Luke
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...they still have troops in Northern Ireland, and why not, it's a separate county which is part of the United Kingdom, not part of the Republic of Ireland.
Didn't you earn about this growing up in the Mental Institution?
I'm Irish born and raised but I still know Alaska and Hawai are states of the US. Did you know that?
The Luke
Ireland just isn't that important to me, and as far as your usual attempts at insulting people why don't you go get drunk, isn't that what you worthless mick bastards do?
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Ireland just isn't that important to me, and as far as your usual attempts at insulting people why don't you go get drunk, isn't that what you worthless mick bastards do?
...and this relates to the healthcare reform debate how?
The Luke
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...and this relates to the healthcare reform debate how?
The Luke
The Luke is cool, calm and kicking azz!! :D
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The Luke is cool, calm and kicking azz!! :D
...the Luke is under personal attack because he has seemingly won the argument.
Damn socialist, eurotrash asshole... with his facts and logic.
The Luke
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...and this relates to the healthcare reform debate how?
The Luke
What do you want to debate? That the Federal Government has no constitutional authority in the matter?
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What do you want to debate? That the Federal Government has no constitutional authority in the matter?
...was I arguing that?
I thought I was attacking the propaganda arguments put forward by the healthcare monopoly lobby (via right-wing propaganda mouthpieces such as FOX News and Rush Limbaugh).
Let's stay on topic.
The arguments put forward by those opposing reform are totally divorced from reality.
Go use a socialised healthcare system. Go visit one of these countries being demonised in your press.
Maybe just ask yourself who benefits from all this brainwashing?
The Luke
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...was I arguing that?
I thought I was attacking the propaganda arguments put forward by the healthcare monopoly lobby (via right-wing propaganda mouthpieces such as FOX News and Rush Limbaugh).
Let's stay on topic.
The arguments put forward by those opposing reform are totally divorced from reality.
Go use a socialised healthcare system. Go visit one of these countries being demonised in your press.
Maybe just ask yourself who benefits from all this brainwashing?
The Luke
I don't watch FOX news or any other cable news channel for that matter its all opinionated crap. I don't really care how Ireland runs its healthcare system, or the rest of Europe, Asia, or Russia for that matter.
I don't want to use a socialized health care system, the one I have works just fine.
Maybe you think some on here are brainwashed, but when it comes right down to it health care is not a right, it is service that you must pay a licensed professional for, that in itself disqualifies it from being a right. If the Federal Government wants to make it a right there is a process to ammend the constitutution.
The government sets all the regulations on how the insurance companies must conduct buisness, then act surprised when they listen to lobbiest and do what they want and things get fucked up. And what really pisses me off is the sitcom attention spam of most of America as they just forget that government made this fucking mess and now are on their knee thanking that same government for "fixing" it.
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Good points, but I must take issue with some of your opinions...
I don't watch FOX news or any other cable news channel for that matter its all opinionated crap. I don't really care how Ireland runs its healthcare system, or the rest of Europe, Asia, or Russia for that matter.
Good for you regarding the boycott of corporate media.
But I don't understand this dismissive attitude to healthcare politics... the main reason why Americans are so easily ripped-off by profiteering insurance cartels is because Americans simply aren't aware of the successes other governments have had instituting universal healthcare.
Every single country with better healthcare than the US (36 of them) all have socialised care.
The French pay 60% of what you pay per capita (and 50 million Americans don't pay premiums) and they have the very best healthcare system in the entire world (2000 WHO Report).
Some of these other arguments are way off base too:
I don't want to use a socialized health care system, the one I have works just fine.
...even aside from the chronically selfish attitude displayed here, are you actually aware that you run a one in five chance of not being covered?
That's the denial rate for those who THINK they have full coverage. Remember, for most afflicted with sudden serious illness, denial means bankruptcy... and bankruptcy means homelessness.
If your coverage is employer supplied... what are your odds of losing your job during this recession/depression?
Think about it. Your "I'm alright, fuck everyone else!" attitude is a delusion...
You'd actually have better odds playing Russian Roulette.
...but when it comes right down to it health care is not a right, it is service that you must pay a licensed professional for, that in itself disqualifies it from being a right.
This IS brainwashing. Read the Declaration of Human Rights; read the Geneva Convention.
...why do American prison inmates receive healthcare in prison free of charge?
Why do the poor bastards being raped; mutilated and tortured in Gitmo have free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare?
Don't you as a patriotic tax-paying American deserve the same rights that socialist commie Bush granted to dem' dere turr-orists?
The Luke
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Almost every state has programs to assist the poor with health coverage. On a federal level, medicaid is available to poor people.
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Luke : serious question.
I went to Manhattan College in the Bronx NY and they had an exchange program with Irish students. I did the throwing events and Ireland has a lot of good throwers in the hammer toss, etc. who came to Manhattan College.
Almost to a tee, other than a few cool guys, the first thing these guys always did was complain about the USA and tear down America. Yet, they never could answer the question why they came here if Ireland was so much better and offered better opportunities.
Is it an inferiority complex or are Irish people generally negative whiners who think they know more than everyone else?
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Good points, but I must take issue with some of your opinions...
Good for you regarding the boycott of corporate media.
But I don't understand this dismissive attitude to healthcare politics... the main reason why Americans are so easily ripped-off by profiteering insurance cartels is because Americans simply aren't aware of the successes other governments have had instituting universal healthcare.
Every single country with better healthcare than the US (36 of them) all have socialised care.
The French pay 60% of what you pay per capita (and 50 million Americans don't pay premiums) and they have the very best healthcare system in the entire world (2000 WHO Report).
Some of these other arguments are way off base too:
...even aside from the chronically selfish attitude displayed here, are you actually aware that you run a one in five chance of not being covered?
That's the denial rate for those who THINK they have full coverage. Remember, for most afflicted with sudden serious illness, denial means bankruptcy... and bankruptcy means homelessness.
If your coverage is employer supplied... what are your odds of losing your job during this recession/depression?
Think about it. Your "I'm alright, fuck everyone else!" attitude is a delusion...
You'd actually have better odds playing Russian Roulette.
This IS brainwashing. Read the Declaration of Human Rights; read the Geneva Convention.
...why do American prison inmates receive healthcare in prison free of charge?
Why do the poor bastards being raped; mutilated and tortured in Gitmo have free taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare?
Don't you as a patriotic tax-paying American deserve the same rights that socialist commie Bush granted to dem' dere turr-orists?
The Luke
1) The reason Americans are "ripped off" by the insurance companies is because the government is for sale to the highest bidder, the lobbiest have the politicians in their pocket and get what they want. If the politicians actually cared what was good for America and not their personal wealth and power there would be no need to discuss healthcare reform. I always here this "your selfish" bullshit from the socialist healthcare proponents, you see I believe that is my responsiblilty to take care of myself and my family. What are my chances of getting laid off probably slim, but even if that is the case I have marketable skills. You see I went to college on my own dime, I work hard and continue to learn everyday. And as far as other people, it is their responsibility to take care of themselves as well, I don't expect anything free from the government, you see nothing is free, either someone else is paying for it or you have sacrifice a freedom.
2)Declaration of Human rights? Geneva conventions? What exactly does that have to do with socialized healthcare? The only document that applies in this situation is the US constitution and no where in there does it say health care is a right.
3) Where are you trying to go with this? Prison, personally I think the prision system should be like it used to be and prisions should be such a horrible place that once is enough, but liberal "morality" put an end to that.
The poor bastards at Gitmo? I don't consider terrorist poor bastards and as far as your allegations fo torture, rape....... you better have proof before you go spouting that bullshit about American soldiers. As far as I'm concerned these fuckers weren't wearing uniforms and were fighting US soldiers they are illegal combatants and should have been executed.
No I don't think I deserve anything for simply being an American, tax paying huh, well then should all those who don't pay taxes be excluded from the plan?
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Almost to a tee, other than a few cool guys, the first thing these guys always did was complain about the USA and tear down America. Yet, they never could answer the question why they came here if Ireland was so much better and offered better opportunities.
Is it an inferiority complex or are Irish people generally negative whiners who think they know more than everyone else?
Excellent question!
Ireland has been going downhill since the Dark Ages... we might have been the capital of Europe then, but we became a backwater under British rule.
Ireland has 4 million people, but 10 million cows.
We have no gold; silver; iron; copper; aluminium; no mining; no heavy industry; oil or natural gas; no real tangible natural resources... we have farming, rain and nothing much else.
Add to this the fact that we're only just recovering (demographically) from a chronic mass famine (population 1840: 9 million... population 1850: 2ish million).
But despite being dealt this poor hand, we have a basic respect for our fellow man and managed to develop a pretty progressive society.
We have free schooling... from kindergarten through primary school; secondary school; university; masters; even PhD and sometimes post-grad too.
We have the 19th best healthcare system in the world... free and universal, even caps on drug costs ($100 max per month per household).
What most Irish (even most Europeans) notice about America is how chronically fucked up it is... how corrupt... how wasteful... but mostly just how dumb and deluded most Americans are.
If we had America, it would be a utopia pretty quick.
The Luke
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Luke I live in Woodlawn. There is the biggest concentration of Irish people in my neighborhood than almost anywhere else.
Most of the Irish people in my hood are the salt of the earth and we actually have the safest neighborhood in the area, other than Friday and Sat. nights once the guys get their paychecks. We have more bars on McLean Ave. than I can count!
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...the Luke is under personal attack because he has seemingly won the argument.
Damn socialist, eurotrash asshole... with his facts and logic.
The Luke
;)
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;)
(http://passionweiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/30711-2.jpg)
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We have free schooling... from kindergarten through primary school; secondary school; university; masters; even PhD and sometimes post-grad too.
The Luke
If you're an example of socialized schooling beyond high school, I'll pass. I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you're not very educated.
-You can rarely, if ever, offer any type of meaningful, coherent, logical argument.
-In most of your posts you invariably resort to either calling people idiotic, moronic, etc., or implying that they are. Hardly a sign of education or maturity (I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?).
-You have no respect for opinions that differ from yours. Again, hardly a sign of education.
-You're not bright enough to discern other posters countering your arguments versus you simply disagreeing with their point of view.
-We've already established you can't spell, don't know when to use an apostrophe, and that you think proper grammer means starting a sentence with "...".
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If you're an example of socialized schooling beyond high school, I'll pass. I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you're not very educated.
-You can rarely, if ever, offer any type of meaningful, coherent, logical argument.
-In most of your posts you invariably resort to either calling people idiotic, moronic, etc., or implying that they are. Hardly a sign of education or maturity (I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?).
-You have no respect for opinions that differ from yours. Again, hardly a sign of education.
-You're not bright enough to discern other posters countering your arguments versus you simply disagreeing with their point of view.
-We've already established you can't spell, don't know when to use an apostrophe, and that you think proper grammer means starting a sentence with "...".
BOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!
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If you're an example of socialized schooling beyond high school, I'll pass. I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you're not very educated.
-You can rarely, if ever, offer any type of meaningful, coherent, logical argument.
-In most of your posts you invariably resort to either calling people idiotic, moronic, etc., or implying that they are. Hardly a sign of education or maturity (I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?).
-You have no respect for opinions that differ from yours. Again, hardly a sign of education.
-You're not bright enough to discern other posters countering your arguments versus you simply disagreeing with their point of view.
-We've already established you can't spell, don't know when to use an apostrophe, and that you think proper grammer means starting a sentence with "...".
;D
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If you're an example of socialized schooling beyond high school, I'll pass. I think it's pretty clear from your posts that you're not very educated.
-You can rarely, if ever, offer any type of meaningful, coherent, logical argument.
-In most of your posts you invariably resort to either calling people idiotic, moronic, etc., or implying that they are. Hardly a sign of education or maturity (I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?).
-You have no respect for opinions that differ from yours. Again, hardly a sign of education.
-You're not bright enough to discern other posters countering your arguments versus you simply disagreeing with their point of view.
-We've already established you can't spell, don't know when to use an apostrophe, and that you think proper grammer means starting a sentence with "...".
Yeah, yeah... and I look French too.
...what does any of this have to do with healthcare?
I've read attacks, I've read dissent, but I haven't read a cogent counter argument... just parroted propaganda.
The Luke
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Yeah, yeah... and I look French too.
...what does any of this have to do with healthcare?
I've read attacks, I've read dissent, but I haven't read a cogent counter argument... just parroted propaganda.
The Luke
Your post is a perfect example of what Skip said of you and you dont even realize it.
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Your post is a perfect example of what Skip said of you and you dont even realize it.
..so you've just conceded the argument and turned to personal attacks too?
The Luke
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..so you've just conceded the argument and turned to personal attacks too?
The Luke
Just read his post and what you yourself responded with. You claimed that all you hear is "propaganda" and not arguments against your points.
That was one of skips main points against you. That being, you refuse to even accept the fact that people can have valid disagreements with your points of view. It seems that if anyone ever disagrees with you that their view point is automatically classified by you as "propaganda", not a potentially valid argument to your view point.
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That being, you refuse to even accept the fact that people can have valid disagreements with your points of view. It seems that if anyone ever disagrees with you that their view point is automatically classified by you as "propaganda", not a potentially valid argument to your view point.
...its hardly valid just because FOX News told you so.
A valid disagreement shoud have a cogent argument behind, something that can be explained in terms of logic.
I haven't heard anything but unfounded opinion in this thread... and parroting the unfounded opinions of others is a triumph of propaganda over reason.
The Luke
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...its hardly valid just because FOX News told you so.
A valid disagreement shoud have a cogent argument behind, something that can be explained in terms of logic.
I haven't heard anything but unfounded opinion in this thread... and parroting the unfounded opinions of others is a triumph of propaganda over reason.
The Luke
Kazan and Tony made many good points to you. Which of theirs do you consider having been drummed into them by Fox News vs possibly their getting it from somewhere else?
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Kazan and Tony made many good points to you. Which of theirs do you consider having been drummed into them by Fox News vs possibly their getting it from somewhere else?
...the ones lacking any reality based argument: ie all their points.
The Luke
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...the ones lacking any reality based argument: ie all their points.
The Luke
And hence - skips' valid post to you. Unless you agree with it, you dont ever possibly considering anyone elses' opinion as possibly having any merit whatsoever.
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4 million people.......thats great. Need we remind u idiots of all the killing and death up north of u "southern's". U idiots have home grown world class terrorists and we're the idiots? Please don't comapre ur country to mine. I've been to Ireland plenty of times and while its a wonderful country, it can't be compared to the US. In the 80's there was a mass migration of Irish kids to the US. I had more cousins and friends of cousins visiting then I can count. I thought it was the potatoe famineall over again. What works for 4 million does not work for 350 million. We both have different roles in the world. U people have zero cause to talk do the US. I've been about as nice as I can get as I'm half Irish by blood.
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And hence - skips' valid post to you. Unless you agree with it, you dont ever possibly considering anyone elses' opinion as possibly having any merit whatsoever.
I've explained all of my reasoning pretty well througout this thread, it's been countered with invented facts... when these invented facts are corrected the counter argument just disappears.
I've countered these firmly held opinions with simple questions... the opinions crumble.
Where is the reasoned logical cogent argument for America's Russian Roulette healthcare system?
The Luke
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I've explained all of my reasoning pretty well througout this thread, it's been countered with invented facts... when these invented facts are corrected the counter argument just disappears.
I've countered these firmly held opinions with simple questions... the opinions crumble.
Where is the reasoned logical cogent argument for America's Russian Roulette healthcare system?
The Luke
No one is arguing that it is perfect. There are many flaws that need to be fixed. But that does not equate to the only solution being a single payer European system like you have.
We have a completely different culture and society and its not so simple as saying "just do single payer and all will be well."
There are many collateral issues we have that make a single payer simply not doable, unrealistic, and not feasible.
whether it be the lawsuit system, the education process, etc, there are many issues that also need to be dealth with that simply make single payer not a viable option.
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I've explained all of my reasoning pretty well througout this thread, it's been countered with invented facts... when these invented facts are corrected the counter argument just disappears.
I've countered these firmly held opinions with simple questions... the opinions crumble.
Where is the reasoned logical cogent argument for America's Russian Roulette healthcare system?
The Luke
Invented facts? Then show me where in the constitution of the United States where the federal government has the power to take over/ provide healthcare, you can't because it isn't there. And when you have no answer, you simply ignore it.
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Invented facts? Then show me where in the constitution of the United States where the federal government has the power to take over/ provide healthcare, you can't because it isn't there. And when you have no answer, you simply ignore it.
...they aso dont have the defined legal power to charge citizens income tax.
Do you pay your federal income tax?
The Luke
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...they aso dont have the defined legal power to charge citizens income tax.
Do you pay your federal income tax?
The Luke
Ah yes they do, 16th amendment
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Ah yes they do, 16th amendment
...doesn't that breach the 5th Amendment right of each American against being forced to be a witness against himself, which you immediately become legally (both civilly and criminally) by signing an income tax form? Isn't there a whole movement of people who continuously fight this? (Peter Schiff's father chief among them)
Rather than get side-tracked on this tangent (interesting as it may be), I had hoped that my question would spur you to consider the silliness of your argument.
There is no Constitutional basis for govement run healthcare, but likewise there is no Constitutional prohibition of such.
It's an empty argument...
Besides, America already has several taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare schemes: the VA hospitals; veterans coverage, prison inmates coverage, Medicare, Medicaid... even the poor bastards at Gitmo have it.
I simply don't undersand this line of facetious reasoning... this is the argument of a child: loud and insistent but unable to withstand even a moments consideration.
After all, what's next...? Do away with all socialisd government schemes?
Your socialised water and power? Your socialised schools? Your socialised army? Your socialised firefighters? Your socialised courts? Your socialised police force?
Think it through BEFORE you post.
The Luke
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Luke: you claim that you live in Ireland and that Fox news is nothing but propaganda.
1. Do you have access to Fox news in Ireland and do you watch it?
2. Does your viewing of fox news consist of clips posted on Getbig by mons, blacken, or others?
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Luke: you claim that you live in Ireland and that Fox news is nothing but propaganda.
1. Do you have access to Fox news in Ireland and do you watch it?
2. Does your viewing of fox news consist of clips posted on Getbig by mons, blacken, or others?
1. FOX News is banned over here, it fails to meet European journalistic standards. You can pay for it though, get it in a dirty smut package with the porno channels... if you're into that sort of thing.
2. I watched weeks and weeks of FOX News the first time I traveled around America... I was just mesmerized by the manipulation and outright bullshit... it was as if I finally understood why so may Americans simply don't understand.
Americans should be aware that American news media, FOX News in particular, is a laughing stock all over Europe... and by extension the American people themselves.
There is quite a bit of anger in Britian particularly at the way British health statistsics (and individual cases) are being distorted and misrepresented to provide pre-packed mistruthes for the right-wing American media.
Pretty much every healthcare system in Europe ranks above America's... but Americans don't know that.
Every healthcare system that ranks above America's (all 36 of them) are universal and socilaised... but Americans dont know that either.
Americans are being charged double the cost of the very best healthcare system in the world (the French system) for pretty shitty care and no safety net... but Americans don't now that either.
Socialised healthcare works... but Americans don't know that either.
Government-run healthcare works... but Americans don't know that either.
Canada's system trounces America's in every measurable indice... but Americans don't know that either.
Propaganda channels like FOX News and right-wing talk radio have been poisoning Americans with ignorance and vested interest dogma ever since Reagan removed the fairness in broadcasting requirement. Why do you think Rupert Murdoch is ever so gay for Reagan?
Just take this thread as an example, this entire discussion has been flavoured with a dearth of actual reality-based facts from the anti-reform (Republican) side.
Boycott FOX News, for your own good.
The Luke
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2. I watched weeks and weeks of FOX News the first time I traveled around America... I was just mesmerized by the manipulation and outright bullshit... it was as if I finally understood why so may Americans simply don't understand.
Americans should be aware that American news media, FOX News in particular, is a laughing stock all over Europe... and by extension the American people themselves.
________________________ ________________________ ___
Fox news is only a tiny portion of the overall news viewership. The major outlets nightly broadcasts dwarf the viewership of fox news.
So why would you give such credence, attribution, and credibility to Fox news being solely responsible for America's view towards govt run health care considering most people dont watch fox news to begin with?
Did you ever stop to think that maybe american citizens deal with the govt everyday and simply dont trust it to handle health care?
You yourself in our other thread posted a listing of numerous failings of the govt in all types of areas, including war, emergencies, financial matters, etc. That being the case, dont you think it is perfectly reasonable to people to be skepticle about the govt running anything else when almost everything it does is a failure, even as you acknowledged in our other thread?
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Let me counter those questios with a few quesions of my own.
What percentage of the the Tea Party marchers would you say receive ALL their information from FOX News?
How bad do you think American healthcare will be 10, 20 years into this depression if Obama does nothing?
Will you be paying four imes your current premium? (Premiums have doubled on average over the last ten years and at this rate would double twice over during the next 20 years)
What do you think the coverage denial rate will be in twenty years? 50%? (Consider the startling rate of increase in HMO/Insurance profits)
I take your point about government inefficiency... but Medicare has a 3.5% overhead (HMOs/Insurance run at 30%) and works well enough that those who have it won't give it up. Why not simply extend Medicare to everyone (as Weiner proposes)? Why not cover the cost with a progressive tax so eveyone pays their share?
America is already paying twice the cost of the best (French) healthcare system for the 37th best...
-forking out $300 billion dollars a year in profits to insurers who provide NO SERVICE
-denial of coverage rates are at 20% even for doctor approved treatment
-62% of all personal bankruptcies in the US are due to medical bills
-78% of all those bankrupted by medical bills had FULL COVERAGE
-2 million Americans go bankrupt each year due to medical costs
-some 50 million Americans have NO COVERAGE
-doctors can pay up to 50% of their (excessive) salaries in malpractice insurance
-those who can't afford tratment are pushed into poverty; crime
What have you got to lose?
The Luke
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Let me counter those questios with a few quesions of my own.
Just like Skip said - you ignore others' points and dont even realize when people counter your arguments with valid points.
What percentage of the the Tea Party marchers would you say receive ALL their information from FOX News?
Probably none. Most people get their information from a variety of sources, whether it be radio, tv, internet, newspapers, reading books, etc.
Additionally, most of the people at the tea party are protesting high taxes and devaluation of the dollar by the govts' reckless spending. That to me means most of them either have savings and/or earn income through employment. If most of these people are holding jobs, do they really have all day to sit around and watch Fox News all day as you say? Most likely not. Most probably have access to a computer at work or home while doing email and look at sites like I do, including politico, wsj, IBD, Drudge, Huffington Post, FR, DU, CNBC, etc.
So my answer to your question is probably none other than a few old people who are too old to do the internet and probably sit home all day.
How bad do you think American healthcare will be 10, 20 years into this depression if Obama does nothing?
Another Straw Man argument. No one is proposing doing nothing. However, there is nothing in the current bills being put forth that contain anything other than subsidies to the private carriers who can still raises prices to however high they like. So unless the govt gets the hell out of the way, things will get worse.
Finally, there is no free market in ObamaCare and prices will only continue to skyrocket since Obama, like other marxists, is completely ignorant on basic economics and does not understand that extisting govt involvement in health care both through direct regulation and the tax code is the primary cause for the massive inflation of health costs.
One last item, just look at the deal Obama made with the drug companies. He guarantees price inflation and no cost containment. so, if we do nothing, things will get worse, but if we adopt ObamaCare, it will be massively worse with no downward cost pressures whatsoever.
Will you be paying four imes your current premium? (Premiums have doubled on average over the last ten years and at this rate would double twice over during the next 20 years)
If nothing is done, yes, it will go up. The govts' refusal to do tort reform, refusal allow competition accross state lines, the govts' messing with the tax code, and the govts' mandating that all policies have to cover incidents most people will never use, ensures that there will be continued price increases on all premiums. The govt is the main cause of the inflation in medical costs.
Under Obamacare my premiums are guaranteed to increase by 4 times the current premium since Obamacare places new mandates on all existing policies that will further drive the costs up. By forcing companies to cover all sorts of new situations and capping the losses they can recoup, the increased costs will be passed along to existing policy holders.
Finally, and you probably are too inexperienced to grasp this, ObamaCare is going to force people to lose their current coverage since employers will be forced to drop coverage due to cost increases and new mandates. These people will be forced onto the "public option". With less enrollees, the insurance companies are going to be forced to spread their losses and costs over fewer policy holders, and hence, massive premium price increases.
What do you think the coverage denial rate will be in twenty years? 50%? (Consider the startling rate of increase in HMO/Insurance profits)
I have no idea.
As far as "insurance profits go", I dont have a problem with that. Insurance is a contract that I knowingly enter into whereby the carrier absorbs the massive risk of something bad happing to me, in return for for me paying a monthly premiuim. I dont see the problem with "profits" as you say so long as they uphold their end of the contract if I get hurt or sick.
I take your point about government inefficiency... but Medicare has a 3.5% overhead (HMOs/Insurance run at 30%) and works well enough that those who have it won't give it up. Why not simply extend Medicare to everyone (as Weiner proposes)? Why not cover the cost with a progressive tax so eveyone pays their share?
1. Medicare is already broke and simply not sustainable.
2. As far as overhead, its apples and oranges. Medicare does not have to advertise, hire compliance personell to deal with the govt, hire accountants, lawyers etc. I know what you really mean is that greedy executives should not be making money off of health care since that is the usual next argument when people bring up the overhead issue. Finally, Medicare does not have to be accountable to a bottom line and keep reserves for payment of claims.
America is already paying twice the cost of the best (French) healthcare system for the 37th best...
Ok, Lets see what they do an see if we can adopt some of what they do if we can fit it into our system.
-forking out $300 billion dollars a year in profits to insurers who provide NO SERVICE
That number is BS. Regardless, insurance is a contract that I and the carrier enter into. I pay a monthly premium and they agree to pay for claims for health care if I get sick. Lets say I sign up for the plan and two months later I get cancer or something like that. The carrier is now legally obligated to pay a fortune for my care while I have only paid a few hundred dollars. In that case they lose, in others they win. Thats how it works and I have no problems with that.
-denial of coverage rates are at 20% even for doctor approved treatment
Thats strange, all i hear is that doctors order unnecessary shit. In fact, Obama repeated this at least three times. If the govt says it does not want to pay for all of this, why should private companies either?
-62% of all personal bankruptcies in the US are due to medical bills
This is an outrage, and I hope something can be done about this somehow.
-78% of all those bankrupted by medical bills had FULL COVERAGE
Same as above.
-2 million Americans go bankrupt each year due to medical costs
Same as above.
-some 50 million Americans have NO COVERAGE
Pure nonsense. That figure is bs.
doctors can pay up to 50% of their (excessive) salaries in malpractice insurance
Why? The tort system is out of control leading doctors to practice what is known as defensive medicine which in itself drives up costs.
-those who can't afford tratment are pushed into poverty; crime
Speculation.
What have you got to lose?
Choice, control, money, etc.
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...doesn't that breach the 5th Amendment right of each American against being forced to be a witness against himself, which you immediately become legally (both civilly and criminally) by signing an income tax form? Isn't there a whole movement of people who continuously fight this? (Peter Schiff's father chief among them)
Rather than get side-tracked on this tangent (interesting as it may be), I had hoped that my question would spur you to consider the silliness of your argument.
There is no Constitutional basis for govement run healthcare, but likewise there is no Constitutional prohibition of such.
It's an empty argument...
Besides, America already has several taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare schemes: the VA hospitals; veterans coverage, prison inmates coverage, Medicare, Medicaid... even the poor bastards at Gitmo have it.
I simply don't undersand this line of facetious reasoning... this is the argument of a child: loud and insistent but unable to withstand even a moments consideration.
After all, what's next...? Do away with all socialisd government schemes?
Your socialised water and power? Your socialised schools? Your socialised army? Your socialised firefighters? Your socialised courts? Your socialised police force?
Think it through BEFORE you post.
The Luke
Is this the best you can do? Coming up with some wingnuts who want to avoid paying federal income tax? If the case had any merrit it wouldn't get tossed out everytime it appears on the docket. Don't waste my time with this bullshit.
All this post shows is you don't even have the most basic understanding of the US constitution. States's rights and state solvernty, limited federal government.
The constitution outlines what powers the federal government has and what isn't specified as a federal power is defered to states to decide.
Water, Power, Schools, Police, Fire are all handled on a state or local government, not the federal level. When a house catches on fire the US fire dept doesn't show up the Chicago fire dept does. When I cal 911 the US police force doesn't answer the phone, the Chicago police Dept answers the phone.
Arizona will be voting in 2010, invoking the 10th amendment, that that state will not have to accept a Federal Government run health plan, if one should pass.
The federal government has the oblogation via the constitution to provide for the common defense of the United States, thus the Military. Do i have a problem paying taxes to provide health care to those who put their very lives on the line in the defense of the US, absolutly not. But if you ask any vet that has had to deal with the VA you would know that its not so good.
The states should be deciding if they want to provide a public option for health care not the federal government
I think you need to stop kissing the blarney stone, because your bullshit just ain't gonna fly.