Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: galeniko on August 02, 2013, 08:19:23 PM
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so.
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I'm gonna try once I finish off the cyp I have. I doubt I'll see much difference with the amount I use though...
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I found that test p blew up my upper body and didnt affect my waist that much, while enanthate did the same, but the gains seems more watery in the upper body- for the record I dont hold that much water in my midsection/abs area at all and my BF is 8% maybe a littler lower.
I prefer enanthate though as i run it at 175mg pinned 1x a week. from there i add other stuff for example right now im running 750mg deca alongside it. If I was going to be pinning more frequently though and using more test I would definitely use test prop or test acetate. Hell, even test base maybe if I went for ED pinning.
If your using a miniscule amount such as I am I REALLY dont think the ester makes any kind of difference. youd be better off looking at adjusting something else like diet or cardio or a different compound if you are looking for something to make a differnce to yor physique.
On a final note, if you are using enanthate for a blast, pick up a single vial of test prop while your at it. use that to kick start your blast just go 100mg EOD or similar. Found it works as good as any oral other than maybe superdrol or a shit ton of dbol. Better for your health than orals if anything.
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so.
for those who actually lift and who are lean enough to see changes on their bodys.
have you done all factors same in diet, dosage, but the only difference beeing the ester of the test and what was the difference, esp as far water retention is concerned.
please no theory talk on this, i know the theory and what ppl claim out there(or rather, repeat what they heard somewhere).
i know its claimed test is test and the free test talk and how estrogen conversion rates and therefore water retetntion should be less or more on different compounds.
only direct, straight up experiences, no links no copy pasta ala tbombs or esfitness ::)
and hell no if someone took test e or cyp for bulk protocol and then eats half calories on diet and test p, that hardly counts.
p vs e on bulk and-or prop vs e on diet
sometimes science is one thing,reality another.
so lets see, fatsos and ppl who dont lift please shut up and read and learn,or alternatively go look at pics from men in thong oiled up
you little anorexic Amy Winehouse looking twink, when the fuck do I EVER copy and paste when it comes to drug questions?
Why the fuck don't you actually TRY to use some steroids first, before you write a book? Holy fuck, you remind me of Megamorph from 'Bolex in '99.
To answer your newbie question. hitting mwf injections of 200mg test prop vs 200mg test enan showed no difference after a month. Initially you'll have more test in your blood with prop.. and mg per mg you'll have more test with prop as opposed to enan (or cyp, or undec) due to lower ester weight (but you already knew that.. I would hope), so you may 'feel' it a lil more.
in my experience, running 2g + of test requires a lot of oil if you're using 100mg/ml prop, and the swelling and inflammation at injection sites negates any perceived 'benefit' from prop when it comes to less water retention... and even if you use 200mg/ml prop, the swelling and inflammation is worse even with less oil.
not many 'men' (I use that term loosely when referring to you galina... actually, I had a Bulgarian ex named galina, and she had a better physique than you, so I dunno if i'm insulting you, or her more), hold water in their midsection. if you had any amount of muscle or used a man-sized dose of anabolics, you'd find water retention in you back to be more of a problem.
if water retention is an issue and you wanna look lean and dry and don't care adding size and looking like you even lift weights (which is the case with you, we know), just run .25mg of arimidex 2-3x a week along with 10mg nolva per day.
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esfitness, no essays, no advice, id rather drink dog diarhea than consider your advice.
do that to the gullible.
the question was:
just experience.did one ester make you hold more water ,all other factors being same.
1- drinking dog diarrhea would mean you actually eat. eating is the first step toward beating anorexia. you'd be making progress.
2 - nope.
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esfitness, no essays, no advice, id rather drink dog diarhea than consider your advice.
do that to the gullible.
the question was:
just experience.did one ester make you hold more water ,all other factors being same.
test e gave me some more water, but as i said before the dose i usually use of test is tiny as i much prefer more effective drugs such as tren or deca. if your thinking of trying it, then go ahead but if your really only using 200mg of test as you always say then you wont notice much of a difference tbh
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Prop at 100 mg ed is amazing if you get good shit. Test E is fine, don't like suspension. Prop seems to be the most balanced and effective. Suspension to me is a head wrecker. Potent, sure. Test E is nice and effective if you want low maintenance.
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yah ofc they all work, but really, what interest me most is the water retention experiences.
so far i found nothing conclusive.
you know, not what should happen according to science(i read about that, its interesting), but what does happen.
of, most ppl are on e when gaining weight and use prop when dieting, but that difference experienced int his case wcould all be diet.
The water retention on any test will be minimal if you work your diet right IMO. When I did prop and some arimidex, it was awesome for dieting. You are in good shape. Just do what has been working, but I would prefer the prop in any situation.
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I did this with the main esters
Enan I looked great
Cyp 25% less
Prop 40% less
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I really noticed the differences because I did each one on purpose just to see how I reacted to each ester
I really looked my best on Enan
the others did make me hold more water
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250mg per week
and then
500mg per week
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Prop at 100 mg ed is amazing if you get good shit. Test E is fine, don't like suspension. Prop seems to be the most balanced and effective. Suspension to me is a head wrecker. Potent, sure. Test E is nice and effective if you want low maintenance.
fucking suspension is a stupid drug imo. its water based, going to harbor bacteria and all kinds of crap in there lol plus it KILLS in terms of PIP. TNE isnt much better (difference between the two is that TNE is oil based, suspension is water based). I have yet to try sustanon out, but i suspect it would give one the best of both worlds and ive heard this from many.
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Yes I loved Sustanon 250
that was my favorite run that at 250mg-500mg per week and look great
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Yes I loved Sustenon 250
that was my favorite run that at 250mg-500mg per week and look great
id be growing tits and losing all my lines at 500mg of test. ive been there!
low test+high anabolic i prefer.
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that is just me I have tried just about most AAS
if I had my druthers, I would pick the Sustanon 250
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can i just pummel your asshole
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There are a number of different esters of testosterone, including the commonly prescribed injectables of testosterone enanthate, and testosterone cypionate , as well other esters, such as acetate, propionate , phenylpropionate, isocaproate, caproate, decanoate, and undecanoate.
Each of these different esters is a molecular chain composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
The main difference between the different esters is how many carbon and hydrogen atoms make up the chain.
For example, the propionate ester is composed of 3 carbons, 6 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens, whereas the cypionate ester is composed of 8 carbons, 14 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens.
http://forums.steroid.com/before-you-start-hrt-what-your-doctor-probably-hasnt-told-you-doesnt-know/367483-testosterone-basic-guide.html
Testosterone - A Basic Guide
I found this while doing some research and I think it will be very useful to the members here
Testosterone Types and Delivery
Overview
In testosterone therapy , testosterone (often called "T" for short) can be administered into the body in a number of ways. The most common method is intramuscular (IM) injection with a syringe. Other delivery methods include transdermal application through gel, cream, or patch applied to the skin; orally by swallowing tablets (this method is uncommon as it has been shown to have negative effects on the liver); sublingually/buccally by dissolving a tablet under the tongue or against the gums; or by a pellet inserted under the skin. The T-delivery method used will depend on the type of medication available in the country of treatment, the health risks/benefits for the patient of the delivery method in question, personal preference, and cost.
Testosterone is not stored by the body for future use, so in order to maintain healthy levels, it must be administered in timed intervals, and in appropriate dosages. Injectable and subcutaneous T pellets remain active in the body the longest. Injectable T is typically administered between once a week to once every three weeks, and subcutaneous T pellets are replaced every 3-4 months. Transdermal T (patch, gel, or cream) is typically applied to the skin in smaller daily doses; oral and sublingual/buccal T are also typically taken daily.
"Normal" testosterone Levels
An individual's testosterone levels are usually confirmed through a blood test called a "serum total testosterone test." Testosterone exists in your bloodstream in two forms-- "bound" testosterone and "free" testosterone. The majority of bound testosterone in the body is chemically bound to a protein called "sex hormone binding globulin" (SHBG). The remaining bound testosterone in the system is mostly bound to albumin, another protein. Free testosterone is considered the "active" form of testosterone, as it is not chemically attached to any proteins; thus, it is readily available to bind to androgen receptor sites on cells.
A serum total testosterone test measures the total of these two forms of T. What are considered normal test levels of combined bound and free testosterone in male bodies can range anywhere from 300-1100 ng/dl (nanograms per deciliter). Levels will vary with age and individual factors.
It is useful to also measure the level of free testosterone in the system, as this may be more indicative of how hormone therapy is progressing. Levels of free testosterone can range between 0.3%-5% of the total testosterone count, with about 2% considered an optimal level. Ask your doctor to check for both total and free levels of testosterone in your system.
A note of caution about greatly increasing your T dosage
During the first months of T therapy, many men feel impatient waiting for changes to happen. Some may consider doubling or tripling their dose, thinking that the more they put in, the faster the changes will come. However, dramatically increasing your dose might have the effect of slowing your changes. This is because excess testosterone in your body can be converted into estrogen by an enzyme called "aromatase." This conversion is part of the body's natural feedback system-- if there is an abundance of testosterone in the body, it is converted ("aromatized") to estrogen in order to maintain a "normal" hormonal balance. Therefore, taking very large doses of testosterone might not be a great idea. Be patient; if you are not seeing results in a reasonable period of time, and/or your T levels are low, discuss modifying your dosage with your doctor.
Testosterone esters: what they are and how they work
Much of the testosterone that is prescribed for the purposes of hormone therapy is in the form of testosterone "esters." An ester is simply a name for a chemical compound that is formed from reaction between a carboxylic acid and an alcohol. A simple chemical diagram of this reaction is shown below in Figure A. Figure B shows the chemical structure of free testosterone (chemical formula C19H28O2) as well as two different esters of testosterone (testosterone cypionate and testosterone enanthate ).
There are a number of different esters of testosterone, including the commonly prescribed injectables of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate , as well other esters such as acetate, propionate , phenylpropionate, isocaproate, caproate, decanoate, and undecanoate. Each of these different esters is a molecular chain composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The main difference between the different esters is how many carbon and hydrogen atoms make up the chain. For example, the propionate ester is composed of 3 carbons, 6 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens, whereas the cypionate ester is composed of 8 carbons, 14 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens.
Esterification of testosterone is done in order to improve the solubility of testosterone in oil, which in turn slows the release of the testosterone from the site at which it enters the body.
Testosterone, in its free, non-esterified form, has poor solubility in either oil or water-- though it can be suspended in water. Non-esterified testosterone is available in an aqueous injectable form with the drug name "Aquaviron." However, this form of testosterone stays active in the body for only a very short period of time (only a matter of hours, which is explained further below). Because of this, it must be injected on a daily basis in order to maintain a continuous level of testosterone in the blood. Therefore it is rarely used for testosterone replacement therapy as an injectable.
Once you have added an ester group to testosterone, it becomes even less soluble in water and more soluble in oil. Additionally, as a general rule, the more carbon atoms there are in an ester, the more soluble the ester is in oil. For example, testosterone propionate (with 3 carbon atoms in the ester group) is less soluble in oil than testosterone cypionate (with 8 carbon atoms in the ester group). Remember, this is general, simplified rule for our purposes herein; the solubility of a molecule depends on structural factors that are beyond the scope of this section.
So, generally, the more carbons the ester group has, the more soluble in oil it becomes, and the less soluble in water. The term for this ratio between oil and water solubility is called the "partition coefficient"-- the higher the solubility in oil, the higher the partition coefficient.
The partition coefficient of the ester in question is important because is effects how long the drug itself stays in the system. If the testosterone transfers too quickly from the oil to the blood, the result is a sudden spike in testosterone which then rapidly drops once the dose has been used up. In the example of free testosterone injected into the muscle from a water suspension (as in Aquiviron, mentioned above), the testosterone is essentially immediately available to the bloodstream due to its low partition coefficient, and thus there is an immediate spike of testosterone which is used up quickly in the body.
Testosterone cypionate, on the other hand, has a high partition coefficient. When injected into the muscle, the drug remains in its esterified form in a deposit in the muscle tissue. From there, it will slowly enter the circulation as it is picked up in small quantities by the blood. Once the esterified testosterone is brought into the blood stream, "esterase enzymes" cleave off the ester chain in a process known as "hydrolization," thus leaving the testosterone in its free form to perform its various actions and effects.
When people speak of whether a particular testosterone ester is "fast acting" or "slow acting," they are usually referring to the partition coefficient/solubility in oil. As described above, esters with more carbon atoms will generally be more soluble in oil-- they are often referred to as "slow-acting" esters (they stay active in the system longer). Esters that are less soluble in oil are often referred to as "fast-acting" forms of testosterone, referring to the fact that they are more quickly available and used up in the blood stream.
For men who are using injectable testosterone, slow-acting esters tend to be preferred, as fewer injections are needed over time to keep the blood levels of T reasonably constant. Testosterone enanthate (7 carbons) and testosterone cypionate (8 carbons) both take about 8-10 days to be fully released in the system, and so they are typically injected once every 7-14 days. Testosterone propionate (3 carbons) takes about 3-4 days to be fully released in the system, and must be injected in smaller doses at least weekly if not twice weekly. For this reason it is not often prescribed for men in transition.
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Testosterone delivery methods
Injectable testosterone
The dosage amount and timing for injectable testosterone will depend largely upon which ester is being used, as well as the individual's own response to the hormone. In general, dosages will vary between 50 mg and 300 mg per injection, depending on the ester and the dosing regimen. An average injectable dose is about 200-250 mg every two weeks, though many trans men inject 100 mg every week or every 10 days, or other variations depending on their own bodies' needs and sensitivities. Again, the exact dosage required will vary from person to person, and health and well-being should be carefully monitored while determining an individual's ideal dose.
Some doctors recommend decreasing the dosage of injectables to 100-150 mg every two weeks for those trans men whose ovaries are inactive, or who have had their ovaries removed. Again, this will vary from person to person.
There are a number of different types of injectable testosterone; those available may differ depending on the country in which you reside. The drug names for the same ester of testosterone may also differ depending on the company who produces it. This is not an exhaustive list, though it does cover the main injectable forms of T which are used by trans men for testosterone therapy.
Finally, testosterone esters are typically suspended in either cottonseed oil or sesame seed oil. Some people find that they may have an allergic reaction to one of the oils, or they might find that their acne increases or decreases depending on the type of oil they use. Certain brand-name testosterone esters are mass produced using one oil or the other (as noted below), but by using a compounding pharmacy, you can have any testosterone ester suspended in your choice of oil (with a proper prescription).
Injectable esters commonly used for testosterone therapy:
Testosterone enanthate: Chemical formula C26H40O3
Testosterone enanthate is one of the main forms of testosterone prescribed to men in the United States. It is a slow-acting ester with a release time between 8-10 days. The name-brand of T-enanthate available in the United States is called "Delatestryl," which is suspended in sesame oil. Testosterone enanthate is typically injected anywhere between once every week to once every three weeks. Generic testosterone enanthate can also be obtained through a compounding pharmacy; such pharmacies can mix the enanthate in either sesame or cotton seed oil.
Testosterone cypionate: Chemical formula C27H40O3
Testosterone cypionate is the other main injectable form of testosterone prescribed tomen in the United States. It is a slow-acting ester with a release time between 8-10 days, similar to that of enanthate. The name-brand of T-cypionate available in the United States is called "Depo-Testosterone," which is suspended in cottonseed oil. Testosterone cypionate is typically injected anywhere between once every week to once every three weeks. Generic testosterone cypionate can also be obtained through a compounding pharmacy; such pharmacies can mix the cypionate in either sesame or cotton seed oil.
Sustanon 100 or 250
"Sustanon " is the brand name for two formulas of injectable testosterone that contain a blend of esters. "Sustanon 100" contains three testosterone esters: testosterone propionate (C22H32O3), testosterone phenylpropionate (C28H36O3), and testosterone isocaproate (C25H3803). "Sustanon 250" contains four testosterone esters: testosterone propionate (C22H32O3), testosterone phenylpropionate (C28H36O3), testosterone isocaproate (C25H3803), and testosterone decanoate (C29H4603). Both formulas feature both fast-acting and slow-acting esters, and can be injected anywhere from once every week to once every four weeks. Sustanon is prescribed outside of the United States.
Other injectable esters of testosterone:
Testosterone propionate: Chemical formula C22H32O3
Testosterone propionate is a fast-acting ester with a release time of 3-4 days. To keep blood levels from fluctuating greatly, propionate is usually injected between one to three times a week. It is for this reason that it is not usually prescribed hormone therapy. Some users also report that propionate is a more painful injection, with swelling and noticeable pain around the injection site. Brand names of testosterone propionate include "Testovis" and "Virormone."
Testosterone phenylpropionate: Chemical formula C28H36O3
Testosterone phenylpropionate is a slow-acting ester, with a release time of 1-3 weeks. A popular name brand for T-phenylpropionate is "Testolent ." Testosterone phenylpropionate is also one of the components of Sustanon and Omnadren .
Omnadren
"Omnadren" is the brand name for a blend of four testosterone esters: testosterone propionate (C22H32O3), testosterone phenylpropionate (C28H36O3), testosterone isocaproate (C25H3803), and testosterone decanoate (C29H4603). In the past, Omnadren consisted of a blend of different esters, but now is essentially the same formula as Sustanon, mentioned above. It features both fast-acting and slow-acting esters, and can be injected anywhere from once every week to once every four weeks. It is sometimes prescribed in parts of Europe.
Aqueous testosterone suspension
In the United States, injectable aqueous (non-esterified) testosterone is available, but it is very short-acting (it is completely released in the system within a matter of hours). Therefore, it is not typically used for men in transition, as it would require constant re-injection to maintain regular blood levels. The brand name for aqueous testosterone suspension is "Aquaviron."
Transdermal testosterone
The term "transdermal" refers to topical testosterone delivery through the skin, by the use of a patch, gel, or cream.
Transdermal testosterone is usually applied to the skin daily in small doses in an effort to keep a steady level of testosterone in the system at all times. This approach avoids the "peaks and valleys" in T-levels sometimes associated with injectable testosterone. With injectables, T levels can reach a low-point a few days before the next shot is due, which can cause irritability, hot flashes, and low energy in some users. Daily transdermal application can help alleviate such problems. Indeed, some men who regularly use injectable testosterone sometimes supplement with a gel or patch during the last few days of their dosing cycle to maintain their T levels.
Transdermal application is also attractive to those individuals who are not comfortable with needles and injections.
However, there are some disadvantages to transdermal delivery. Some forms of daily transdermal testosterone application, particularly the patch, are substantially more expensive than injectable testosterone. Testosterone patches often cause skin irritation and/or allergic reactions to users. They can fall off with excessive sweating, and they must be fully protected with plastic when swimming. Testosterone cream and gel can be transferred by direct skin contact with a partner; special care must be taken with female partners who wish to avoid potential virilization.
Testosterone patches
There are currently two brand-name testosterone patches available in the United States: "Androderm" and "Testoderm." (Note that there are two forms of Testoderm available: a scrotal patch and a non-scrotal patch. The non-scrotal patch, "Testoderm TTS," is described herein). Generic testosterone patches are not yet available. Both Androderm and Testoderm TTS are very fast-acting once they have permeated the skin. The testosterone in the patches is suspended in an alcohol-based gel.
In order to deliver the testosterone efficiently into the body, chemical enhancers are added to the patch to increase permeability of the skin. It is these enhancers that are often the cause of skin irritation in many users. Some individuals find Testoderm TTS to be less irritating to the skin than Androderm, but this will vary from person to person.
Androderm
Androderm patches come in two doses: 2.5 mg/patch and 5.0 mg/patch. The actual amount of testosterone in the 2.5 mg patch is 12.2 mg, and the actual amount in the 5.0 mg patch is 24.3 mg. The reason is that much of the testosterone in the patch will not manage to get into the system. So, for example, the aim of the 2.5 mg patch is to get about 2.5 mg successfully into the bloodstream per day. Therefore, it is possible to absorb slightly more or slightly less than the 2.5 mg of the patch's ideal dosage (the same reasoning, of course, applies to the 5.0 mg patch as well).
Androderm patches are usually applied on the back, abdomen, thighs, or upper arms. Because the active area of the patch is covered, the wearer does not have to worry about skin contact with a partner. Dosages will vary between 2.5 mg - 10 mg daily, by applying a single patch or combination of patches. As with any form of testosterone, dosage should be determined by your overall health, your testosterone levels as checked by your doctor, and your progress in masculinization.
Testoderm TTS
There are two types of Testoderm patches: one is intended for scrotal application, and one for application on other areas of the body. Testoderm TTS refers to the non-scrotal version of the patch-- this is the patch that should be used by men.
Testoderm TTS patches come in two doses: 4.0 mg/patch and 6.0 mg/patch. As with Androderm, the actual amount of testosterone in these patches is greater than the listed dose. The reason is the same as explained above in the Androderm section.
Testoderm TTS patches are usually applied on the back, abdomen, thighs, or upper arms. Because the active area of the patch is covered, the wearer does not have to worry about skin contact with a partner. Dosages will vary between 4.0 mg - 10 mg daily, by applying a single patch or combination of patches. As with any form of testosterone, dosage should be determined by your overall health, your testosterone levels as checked by your doctor.
Testosterone gel and cream
There are currently two brand-name versions of testosterone gel available in the United States: Androgel and Testim. There are no brand-name testosterone creams at this time. Both cream and gel formulations of testosterone can be made by compounding pharmacies. (For more information about compounding pharmacies, click here.) Gel formulations of testosterone are typically alcohol-based, whereas creams are typically safflower oil-based. The testosterone in creams and gels is typically very fast-acting once absorbed through the skin. Thus, it must be applied once or twice daily to maintain T levels.
Creams and gels are applied directly onto the skin. Care must be taken to avoid skin-to-skin contact with a partner on the site of application. Transfer of the testosterone from the site can be prevented by keeping the area covered.
Androgel
Androgel is a clear, alcohol-based gel that contains 1% non-esterified testosterone. It is very fast-acting once it has been absorbed by the skin, and so must be applied 1-2 times daily to maintain T levels. It is available in either unit-dose packets or multiple-dose pumps. The unit dose packets contain either 25 mg or 50 mg of testosterone. Approximately 10% of the applied testosterone from the packets is absorbed into the system, resulting in an effective dose of 2.5 mg or 5.0 mg, respectively.
Androgel should be applied to clean, dry skin and should not be applied to the genital area. Application sites should be allowed to dry for a few minutes prior to dressing. Hands should be washed thoroughly with soap and water after application.
In order to prevent transfer to another person, clothing should be worn to cover the application sites. If direct skin-to-skin contact with another person is anticipated, the application sites should be washed thoroughly with soap and water. Users should wait at least 2 hours after applying before showering or swimming; for optimal absorption, it may be best to wait 5-6 hours.
Testim
Testim, like Androgel, is a clear, alcohol-based gel that contains 1% non-esterified testosterone. It is very fast-acting once it has been absorbed by the skin, and so must be applied 1-2 times daily to maintain T levels. It is available in 5.0g unit-dose tubes. A 5.0g unit dose tube contains 50 mg of testosterone. Approximately 10% of the applied testosterone from the tube is absorbed into the system, resulting in an effective dose of 5.0 mg.
Testim should be applied to clean, dry skin-- preferably to the shoulders and/or upper arms. It should not be applied to the genitals or to the abdomen. Application sites should be allowed to dry for a few minutes prior to dressing. Hands should be washed thoroughly with soap and water after application.
In order to prevent transfer to another person, clothing should be worn to cover the application sites. If direct skin-to-skin contact with another person is anticipated, the application sites should be washed thoroughly with soap and water. Users should wait at least 2 hours after applying before showering or swimming; for optimal absorption, it may be best to wait 5-6 hours.
Compounded creams and gels
Compounded creams and gels can be mixed by compounding pharmacies, and are similar in dosing, application, and precautions to what is described above for Androgel and Testim.
There are two advantages of using compounding pharmacies for testosterone gel or cream. The first is cost: until a generic version of the gel is available, compounded gel will usually be the cheaper alternative. The second is customization: your doctor can write a prescription of varying concentration for gels or creams.
Oral testosterone
Methyltestosterone (C-17 alpha methylated testosterone)
Methyltestosterone is one of the earliest available oral testosterones. Its chemical structure is the hormone testosterone with an added methyl group at the c-17 alpha position of the molecule. The use of oral c-17 alpha methylated testosterone for masculinization is obsolete due to its toxicity to the liver. As such, methyltestosterone is not recommended for FTM hormone therapy. Brand names include "Metesto," "Methitest," "Testred," "Oreton Methyl," and "Android."
Testosterone undecanoate
Testosterone undecanoate is not a c-17 alpha alkylated hormone. Therefore, it is considered a safer oral form of testosterone. It is designed to be absorbed through the small intestine into the lymphatic system, posing less burden on the liver. Brand names for testosterone undecanoate include "Andriol ," "Androxon," "Understor," "Restandol," and "Restinsol." It is not available in the United States.
One disadvantage of orally administered undecanoate is that it is eliminated from the body very quickly, usually in 3-4 hours. Thus, frequent administration is necessary-- usually between 3-6 capsules a day. This can prove to be expensive when compared to injectable testosterone.
Sublingual/buccal testosterone
Sublingual and buccal testosterone delivery works by either placing a dissolving tablet under your tongue (sublingual) or by placing a tablet against the surface of the gums (buccal). It is different from oral delivery in that very little of the substance is swallowed, avoiding potential liver toxicity.
Sublingual
Sublingual testosterone can be obtained through compounding pharmacies. (For more information about compounding pharmacies, click here.)
Buccal
In 2003, the FDA approved a sustained-release buccal testosterone tablet called "Striant." It acts by adhering to the buccal mucosa (the small depression in the mouth where the gum meets the upper lip above the incisor teeth). Once applied, the tablet softens and delivers testosterone through the buccal mucosa, where it is then absorbed directly into the bloodstream, bypassing the gastrointestinal system and liver.
The recommended dosage for Striant is to replace the tablet about every 12 hours, though a different dosing schedule or number of tablets might be required depending on the needs of the patient.
Subcutaneous testosterone pellet
Another relatively new form of testosterone delivery is via a pellet of pure, crystalline testosterone implanted beneath the skin. The pellets are about the size of a grain of rice, and are typically placed in the buttocks or abdomen. The insertion of the pellets is a quick procedure, usually done under local anesthesia. Pellets are typically replaced after 3-4 months. "Testopel" is a brand name for testosterone pellets in the United States.
A 200 mg testosterone pellet releases testosterone at a steady rate of 1-3 mg per day. Several pellets can be inserted at the same time to increase dosage.
Some users have reported problems with the pellets working their way out from under the skin.
Last edited by Kale; 12-03-2008 at 06:01 A.M.
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how you holding your fullness on the prop?
gal and i have talked about this, and despite my experience i coudlnt give him the answer he was looking for as i have never run prop as a stand alone, always in conjunction w tren ace, and usually anadrol, so my experience is coloured by the use of those other two compounds.
his query is based on someone using only prop, and at an ultra lean bf level. most times most guys never use prop by itself, so this is actaully a novel idea and i too am curious to see what the effects will be.
truthfully bro i dont think you'll find an answer here or anywhere, your kinda on unmarked territory given your degree of leaness, and how remarkably little you run in terms of doses. most guy run at least 3-4 different compounds at that bf level, not including anti'e's and thyroid meds.
and ESP. as a co author of that book, i take offense to your remark. ive prolly forgotten more about anaboolics and their practical application than you'll ever know. cheers :)
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yeah brother, you know full well that i already know the answer to the question ;)
ppl who say theres no difference by default are either too fat or dont know what they doing.so much ill tel for now.
the rest ill email you, for i dont like to discuss my natural status openly :D
;)
:D
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fucking suspension is a stupid drug imo. its water based, going to harbor bacteria and all kinds of crap in there lol plus it KILLS in terms of PIP. TNE isnt much better (difference between the two is that TNE is oil based, suspension is water based). I have yet to try sustanon out, but i suspect it would give one the best of both worlds and ive heard this from many.
I used a very good UG guy's sust 350 last year. Was doing a half CC EOD with 75 mgs prop thrown in on top. Wasn't trying to get big, but man did I feel good. I agree on the water based stuff. My problem with suspension was just constant emotional ups and downs. The shit does hurt too. Haha.
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I used a very good UG guy's sust 350 last year. Was doing a half CC EOD with 75 mgs prop thrown in on top. Wasn't trying to get big, but man did I feel good. I agree on the water based stuff. My problem with suspension was just constant emotional ups and downs. The shit does hurt too. Haha.
yeah dude suspension or TNE kills wherever you put it. cut it with some EQ many advise this. never tried it personally..
IMO test is an inferior drug though. other AAS are improved versions of it. key word being improved.
ill take a gram of nandrolone over a gram of test any day. sex drive be damned at least i wont have moonface and tits ;)
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actaully im wondering if phenylpropionate might work best.
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actaully im wondering if phenylpropionate might work best.
no exactly common form of test. but ive heard its got no pip compared to prop. my prop was painless though oddly enough
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id be growing tits and losing all my lines at 500mg of test. ive been there!
low test+high anabolic i prefer.
that's me to a T.
and have naturally high test levels...there is just no standard with this stuff...you have to find what works on you.
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this is the kind of reply i was looking for,thanks.
im not asking to be educated, this is just out of interest what others experience.
real, individual experience, not some one size fits all bs like tske nolvadex ::)
thanks this was interesting
thanks , but how would your severly bloted fatso self see any difference? ??? ;D
i'm far from a bloated fatso... very far.
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no exactly common form of test. but ive heard its got no pip compared to prop. my prop was painless though oddly enough
i used to get a shit ton of it back in the day. unfortunately back in the day is life 15 years ago and i cant remember what it was like to run. i know i kept buying it so it had to be good :D
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Add me to low test high anaboloic (or just low test for maintenance) team. I look like shit on high test, my facial features go to hell and look like a fat girl on high test. So much for the "masculine" look on test, lol.
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Regarding the DHT derivatives: I've read some articles recently that stated that the pathway with DHT sides is not so straight forward as we would think. In other words, the theory that DHT drugs would result in DHT sides like hairless/prostate issues may not necessarily be true.
For example test has to convert to either ARomatase and/or DHT, and it's not a DHT derivative...it's TEST.
What do you gentlemen think? My conclusion from the articles is that I was buying into a lot of bro-science regarding DHT scares.
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Regarding the DHT derivatives: I've read some articles recently that stated that the pathway with DHT sides is not so straight forward as we would think. In other words, the theory that DHT drugs would result in DHT sides like hairless/prostate issues may not necessarily be true.
For example test has to convert to either ARomatase and/or DHT, and it's not a DHT derivative...it's TEST.
What do you gentlemen think? My conclusion from the articles is that I was buying into a lot of bro-science regarding DHT scares.
well, finastride/dutasteride won't prevent dht sides with dht derived AAS (drol, masteron, win, proviron, primo, halo, ect...).
As far as dht derived drugs producing more dht-related side effects? I don't believe they do. I believe it's from testosterone. But they again, what's a dht related side effect? hair loss, body hair growth? prostate enlargement? what else? I lost more hair on my hairline during the time I was on hrt doses (5years) than I have running alllll the other shit. never had an prostate issues during a checkup, never had symptoms.
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well, finastride/dutasteride won't prevent dht sides with dht derived AAS (drol, masteron, win, proviron, primo, halo, ect...).
As far as dht derived drugs producing more dht-related side effects? I don't believe they do. I believe it's from testosterone. But they again, what's a dht related side effect? hair loss, body hair growth? prostate enlargement? what else? I lost more hair on my hairline during the time I was on hrt doses (5years) than I have running alllll the other shit. never had an prostate issues during a checkup, never had symptoms.
I agree here bro.
Also to add to the list of supposed DHT "sides" is increased libido I believe. I know guys who take too much saw palmetto get suppressed libidos.
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useless to train without injecting 50mg prop few houre before the workout.way waist money on creepy pre workout drinks.
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I agree here bro.
Also to add to the list of supposed DHT "sides" is increased libido I believe. I know guys who take too much saw palmetto get suppressed libidos.
they must have small penises....did you check ?
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they must have small penises....did you check ?
??
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/7029_161881389107_3569967_n.jpg)
500mg of Sus 250 every week
not one thing else ped wise no clen, no eca, t-3, no nothing, zero
chicken breasts and fiji water
I have also attained this on just Enan at 500mg per week
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so.
for those who actually lift and who are lean enough to see changes on their bodys.
have you done all factors same in diet, dosage, but the only difference beeing the ester of the test and what was the difference, esp as far water retention is concerned.
please no theory talk on this, i know the theory and what ppl claim out there(or rather, repeat what they heard somewhere).
i know its claimed test is test and the free test talk and how estrogen conversion rates and therefore water retetntion should be less or more on different compounds.
only direct, straight up experiences, no links no copy pasta ala tbombs or esfitness ::)
and hell no if someone took test e or cyp for bulk protocol and then eats half calories on diet and test p, that hardly counts.
p vs e on bulk and-or prop vs e on diet
sometimes science is one thing,reality another.
so lets see, fatsos and ppl who dont lift please shut up and read and learn,or alternatively go look at pics from men in thong oiled up
I prefer Test prop hands down. I am not patient and Test E seems to take alot longer to peak on at least in my case. I find Test prop gives me a tad more strength as well. I also really like Test suspension even though it is painfull the aquavirons I used to get where great! I cannot get them anymore so I don't use Test suspension anymore. I am not a patient guy and I find the faster acting esters really do work faster and batter for me. Dure they are a tad more painfull and you have to do more weekly injections but ig you can find a good brand of prop I would go with Test prop over Test E or in some cases use them both.
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Prop = smaller Ed injects = less aromatization than larger, less frequent injects
At 100-200 test a week I've never noticed a difference as I inject my cyp Ed
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No different really. Maybe testp a bit more acne. Get gyno, bit of bloat from both but just take anti-e and its fine. I dont even bother with testp anymore, only enanthate regardless if I am trying to add or lose. One thing I have noticed is that the side effects (water retention and gyno) are no different from 250mg to 500mg test yet the gains I see on 500mg as apposed to 250mg are two fold. Only if i drop down to 125mg of test a week do i not get any sides. When I am on 250mg a week I can maintain my strength and size but dont look all that great yet still have a puffy face and gyno if i dont use an anti-e however if i bump up to 500mg (keep in mind no other compounds) I look twice as good, more vascular, pumped and hard but no extra sides. Cant go over 500mg though or I have to use too much anti-e and skin gets too dry from this. 500mg test and 600 eq a week is my blast these days. Haven't tried tren yet but possibly this summer i will give it a go just scared of getting acne. Holding water has never been a big issue for me, only gyno. I think it has a lot to do with structure also which is just common sense really. Taller, bigger built guys with broad shoulders seem to be able to smash test and not look like a bloated whale but anyone under 6foot should stick to moderate test and high anabolics. Sounds dumb but just what I have noticed.
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Does all test P cripple you? That's my only experience with one source and my valuable contribution to this discussion.
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Which is better testp or sust?
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Sostenon is the godfather of all testosterones the favorite of pro athletes contains 5 esters and works immediately and for the duration of one month!
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you know what, i dieted once when very young on something called sterandryl retard(yes haha), i had no idea what it was, thought its some other form of parabolan.many years later when internet became normal to have i looked it up,and its a very short estered test version.
me and frends from then ,we all agree i got the leanest and best condition ever on that back then.
its test hexa-something, very similiar structure to propionate.
not available anymore.
nah, man, the vast majority of people will develop strong sides on 500mg test e weekly, if its legit stuff.500 seems to be the changing point for most.
ofc some will have red-purple faces and bloodpressure like when you hold breath for 1 minute, and tons of water bloat but they so far detached from reality they say the see no sides and run gramm or more weekly.haha.
im not so sure, test is the base.
the rest is supposed to be improved, but looks like mainstream medicine still uses test mostly, that says everything.
couple examples:
dht derivates - big prostate problems.
anadrol, despite not aromatizing, and shouldnt turn to progestron, its shows all signs of both.
tren, deca...limp dick, this is unaceptable.i wont even go there,this is simply unaceptable side effect.
winstrol absolute cholesterol levels killer.
all non aromatizing drugs are very much bad for bloodwork results, much wordse than test, i looked up studies.
i think a bbuilder hspouldnt be scared or concerned about gyno, if its meant to happen there wil be no way around it.
i know ppl who dont even know what is anti estrogen and they on 1gramm+ year round and never a puffy nippel, while others do hrt stuff with anti es and just get gyno.
dude if i were you i wouldnt count these out at all. nandrolone is very mild drug, ive run up to a GRAM of NPP before for over 8 weeks and I LOVED IT! Kept me so damn full just blew me up like crazy and it's cheap as hell at least where I get it from.
and dude if you have your test in there with your tren and nandrolone you shouldn't get limp dick. but if you do, just get some pramipexole its dirt cheap. IMO no excuse to stick with test only, you will reap so much more from adding even a little bit of another compound. even drost with test is a great combo if your antsy about trying new drugs
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Tren won't kill your libido if you run cabaser with it.
Saw palmetto killing libido? Wow, self suggestion is strong with these. Saw palmetto is 100% placebo, check out the research.
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Tren won't kill your libido if you run cabaser with it.
Saw palmetto killing libido? Wow, self suggestion is strong with these. Saw palmetto is 100% placebo, check out the research.
lol people scared of shit they havent even tried...
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Tren won't kill your libido if you run cabaser with it.
Saw palmetto killing libido? Wow, self suggestion is strong with these. Saw palmetto is 100% placebo, check out the research.
Interesting...I've heard 2 guys say otherwise. Do any research backed anti-DHT's exist then?
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Yeah, proscar but why would you want to take it? The current thinking is that its the estrogen to test ratio not dht that causes prostrate issues
Tren, for me at least, actually drops my dht to zero, wish there was some human research on these compounds. I'm currently taking masteron to replace the dht but wish we could get dht cream here in America
Gal, if I inject the 200mg cyp in one go like my endo suggests I get a bhg aromatze spike and need anti es
If I shoot 30 mg Ed subq I barely get any e2 activity and can use 0.5 mg arimidex a week (less of that drug is def better )
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Interesting...I've heard 2 guys say otherwise. Do any research backed anti-DHT's exist then?
this is why people dont want to try new compounds. they hear things about them they dont like and they read some stupid study on the effects of tren on lab mice lol
nothing beats hands on experience. you idiots can keep your damn studies
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this is why people dont want to try new compounds. they hear things about them they dont like and they read some stupid study on the effects of tren on lab mice lol
nothing beats hands on experience. you idiots can keep your damn studies
This post contradicts itself bro.
I have a good friend who's hands on experience has been that his libido gets weird when taking DHT....that's his experience, not from a study.
So you can see why I'm inquiring further on the subject. Both anecdotal experience as well as research have their place.
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i think all compounds do not affect all people the same, despite what 'coventional wisdom' or research suggests.
i know that tren ace turns me into a porn star (ok, bigger porn star) and that NPP causes me to shed like crazy. conventional wisdom says neither should happen.
i think people should experiment with such compounds with out any preconcieved notions, pay attention to what is going on in their body, and create an expectation based on experience rather than supposition.
:)
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i think all compounds do not affect all people the same, despite what 'coventional wisdom' or research suggests.
i know that tren ace turns me into a porn star (ok, bigger porn star) and that NPP causes me to shed like crazy. conventional wisdom says neither should happen.
i think people should experiment with such compounds with out any preconcieved notions, pay attention to what is going on in their body, and create an expectation based on experience rather than supposition.
:)
I hate your advice sometimes.....if I wanted a common sense approach to thing, I know where to find it pal. I'm looking for the magic bullet here, not some cookie cutter answers. Now should I or should I NOT run 200mg tren Ace ED while chopping up and snorting lines of Anadrol powder, in between SEOing my bicep peaks every hour on the hour?
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Yeah, proscar but why would you want to take it? The current thinking is that its the estrogen to test ratio not dht that causes prostrate issues
Tren, for me at least, actually drops my dht to zero, wish there was some human research on these compounds. I'm currently taking masteron to replace the dht but wish we could get dht cream here in America
Gal, if I inject the 200mg cyp in one go like my endo suggests I get a bhg aromatze spike and need anti es
If I shoot 30 mg Ed subq I barely get any e2 activity and can use 0.5 mg arimidex a week (less of that drug is def better )
Great post, interesting stuff
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Great post, interesting stuff
The prostate issue is something I'd like an answer for.. There is actually a study showing very low dose tren injects didn't affect prostate health, and my prostate is normal sized despite me being a fucking idiot and running high dose tren in the past. Low dose Tren might actually be ok for hrt but our government won't let that happen
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266670
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The prostate issue is something I'd like an answer for.. There is actually a study showing very low dose tren injects didn't affect prostate health, and my prostate is normal sized despite me being a fucking idiot and running high dose tren in the past. Low dose Tren might actually be ok for hrt but our government won't let that happen
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266670
Yeah man Im with you, I'm very interested in DHT sides, and drugs relating to them. Great article!
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Great replies
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Prop was my favorite besides sustanon. I never did over 500-600 weekly though. Test e IMO took too long to work and I felt bloated with 500 or over of test e after a few weeks.
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I hate your advice sometimes.....if I wanted a common sense approach to thing, I know where to find it pal. I'm looking for the magic bullet here, not some cookie cutter answers. Now should I or should I NOT run 200mg tren Ace ED while chopping up and snorting lines of Anadrol powder, in between SEOing my bicep peaks every hour on the hour?
well 200mg ed might be a bit low. run 300. but you'll need at least based on my experience half that amount in test to make it work (for some reason I find tren a works 'better' as the test used nears the mg of tren being used) actually I found a 1:1 ratio of test to tren to be optimal.
I'd stick with anavar for when using olifactory distribution. I find it absorbs better. anadrol can be used at 300mg a day rectally. I wouldn't go higher as more isnt always more.
as for seo I use extra virgin olive oil. I boil it down twice to remove impurities and use a backload a 5/8's insulin pin for my site injections. I'll typically combine the oil with an irritant like benzyl alcohol if I'm going to a pool party the next day and spend abt 3 hrs site injecting my entire body. post carb up of course so I can focus on those areas where I am flat.
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this biggest and best lies always have a grain of truth to them.
the first paragraph is what I've found to be my own experience running tren ace.
I do use a back loaded a 5/8's insulin pin for all my shots. 23g pffft rookies.
and I do spend about 3 hours a day site injecting for my pool parties. :D
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well 200mg ed might be a bit low. run 300. but you'll need at least based on my experience half that amount in test to make it work (for some reason I find tren a works 'better' as the test used nears the mg of tren being used) actually I found a 1:1 ratio of test to tren to be optimal.
I'd stick with anavar for when using olifactory distribution. I find it absorbs better. anadrol can be used at 300mg a day rectally. I wouldn't go higher as more isnt always more.
as for seo I use extra virgin olive oil. I boil it down twice to remove impurities and backload a 5/8's insulin pin for my site injections. I'll typically combine the oil with an irritant like benzyl alcohol if I'm going to a pool party the next day and spend abt 3 hrs site injecting my entire body. post carb up of course so I can focus on those areas where I am flat.
No offence but both of you are donkeys trying to win derby.it will never happened.i have never ever seen even a pro bodybuilder use that high amount to tren.... and anadrol is the most shitty oral on earth.any one who still using dbol anadrol or deca is an idiot.
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No offence but both of you are donkeys trying to win derby.it will never happened.i have never ever seen even a pro bodybuilder use that high amount to tren.... and anadrol is the most shitty oral on earth.any one who still using dbol anadrol or deca is an idiot.
the post was a joke. thanks for playing.
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LOL Rajkapoop left severely confused by all this white mans lingo
Great posts fellas 8)
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fuck off, you indian piece of shit, go dwell in garebage or something
fucking white trash mo fo.i dont know why but bodybuilding has tendency to attract scums like you.
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the post was a joke. thanks for playing.
you are just typical getbigger.this post will go over your head.you will learn this after 10 year of wasting your money on above mention crap.i dont know any pro bodybuilder who use deca..dbol and anadrol an i know quite a few.
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I used to think it was a joke about long and short esters but now I'm a believer. Used to take test e and sust all the time and even started pinning it EOD. But when I switched to prop it felt like I upped the dose and got a bit leaner.
I thought it was my imagination but I hopped back and fourth and I have no doubts that short esters are the way to go. Science, broscience, whatever... just use short esters and buy from a reputable company. Some blends can hurt and cause PIP but if you have a good brand, stock up and stick to it.
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I used to think it was a joke about long and short esters but now I'm a believer. Used to take test e and sust all the time and even started pinning it EOD. But when I switched to prop it felt like I upped the dose and got a bit leaner.
I thought it was my imagination but I hopped back and fourth and I have no doubts that short esters are the way to go. Science, broscience, whatever... just use short esters and buy from a reputable company. Some blends can hurt and cause PIP but if you have a good brand, stock up and stick to it.
for sure if your using a good amount of test, like 400mg plus. but for those how just use a replacement amount.. dont think it really matters. not IME at least. I do like test prop though... would love to run some HG prop..
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I don't know what you guys are getting at but if you are suggesting there is no difference between prop and test e, that is simple dead wrong. I am a water buffalo on test e and even depleted sodium levels does not get rid of the bloat, where as prop leaves me super dry and I have a hard time keeping up with water intake. The first thing I notice when I take prop is I am drinking 20% more water.
Test e is always the bread and butter of my stacks but has to be cut out 6 weeks out and switched to prop other wise the last bit of water would be hard to get rid of, do I need 6 weeks? probably not, maybe 3 weeks but I am not risking anything.
Hence my experience is about a 7-10lb water weight difference between the 2 under regular circumstances and some may have very little difference but with test e it bloats me.
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Galeniko has become very angry this last month or so.
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yes same here, with no doubt.
this doesnt mean one ester is better than the other, but what you said is definitley true.
now my doses of test is around a gram per week so I need to worry about the esters but if you are doing 250mg per week then I would not even bother, we are talking a hair of a difference in the lower doses.
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Galeniko has become very angry this last month or so.
Beat it Shizzo, this is a serious thread where men are discussing things of importance.
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Beat it Shizzo, this is a serious thread where men are discussing things of impotence.
fixed
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fixed
I guess this could apply as well
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test p always made me feel great
and i didnt seem to hold the water that i did with other esters
the only prob is the frequent shots
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hm i find even at lower doses theres quite a difference, ofc its small stuff, but no doubt its different.
Ya I guess, I would not know cause I never take low doses ;D lmao
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fuckme youre even dumber than i first tought, and i hadf you at bottom barrel scratch level already.
nono, i do believe you. :D
yes fuck you.anyone using 200mg/day tren is a fucking retard.kids use dbold deca not pros.u bumb fuck.stop spreading wrong info.
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yes fuck you.anyone using 200mg/day tren is a fucking retard.kids use dbold deca not pros.u bumb fuck.stop spreading wrong info.
lol pros blast the shit out of deca and dbol. im talking grams of deca in the offseason.
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hey mongoloid, did it escapre your atention that noone was joking?
how daft can 1 person on themselves be? ???
anyway who the fuck are you to talk steroid advice, is there a pic of you floating around,sweatheart?
i bet you look like shit and dont know what you talking about, i remember your posts going what you think would be indepth theory, thats all fine and good, tbombs did the same, yet looked like dogshit.
so are there pics of you?you cant be any good bodybuilder, ppl with names like yours comke from regions not so good for bbuilding diets, i hear they collect street garbage for dinners over there.
here you go again.you are a fucking tool.you dont have to be pro bodybuilder or even a good bodybuilder to have knowledge about gear.i saw guys winning world using 400mg tren and 500mg prop and white trash like you injecting gallons of oil in you smelly butt and still look like shit.i live in your back yard ass clown.check more of my posts.
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here you go again.you are a fucking tool.you dont have to be pro bodybuilder or even a good bodybuilder to have knowledge about gear.i saw guys winning world using 400mg tren and 500mg prop and white trash like you injecting gallons of oil in you smelly butt and still look like shit.i live in your back yard ass clown.check more of my posts.
lol thats right.. they told you they were using that much.
bro mens physique competitors use more tren than that. dont even get me started
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lol pros blast the shit out of deca and dbol. im talking grams of deca in the offseason.
here we go again another high school drop out.fuck this board.i am outta here.
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lol thats right.. they told you they were using that much.
bro mens physique competitors use more tren than that. dont even get me started
keep telling yourself that.
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just hate having to IED with Prop
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yes fuck you.anyone using 200mg/day tren is a fucking retard.kids use dbold deca not pros.u bumb fuck.stop spreading wrong info.
I have a lot of friends who are IFBB pros bro, lots and they all use deca and d-bol at one point or another, they use everything, enlighten us, you know something we don't?
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here you go again.you are a fucking tool.you dont have to be pro bodybuilder or even a good bodybuilder to have knowledge about gear.i saw guys winning world using 400mg tren and 500mg prop and white trash like you injecting gallons of oil in you smelly butt and still look like shit.i live in your back yard ass clown.check more of my posts.
MCFLY, MCFLY.
YOUR SHOES UNTIED.
DOPE, DON'T BE SO GULLIBLE MCFLY.
LMAO, SURE CAUSE PEOPLE REALLY TELL YOU WHAT THEY TAKE AT THE LEVEL, i MEAN OF COURSE THEY WON'T LIE ABOUT THE AMOUNTS, OH NO OF COURSE NOT ::) ROTFLMAO
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I have a lot of friends who are IFBB pros bro, lots and they all use deca and d-bol at one point or another, they use everything, enlighten us, you know something we don't?
exactly. they use as much as they can afford to run for as long as they can. especially gh.
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lol thats right.. they told you they were using that much.
bro mens physique competitors use more tren than that. dont even get me started
exactly. they use as much as they can afford to run for as long as they can. especially gh.
spot on both comments, some people are just naive, :-\
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LMAO, SURE CAUSE PEOPLE REALLY TELL YOU WHAT THEY TAKE AT THE LEVEL, i MEAN OF COURSE THEY WON'T LIE ABOUT THE AMOUNTS, OH NO OF COURSE NOT ROTFLMAO
Don't wish to cause a row but what makes you think the pro friends you have tell you the truth about what they take?
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spot on both comments, some people are just naive, :-\
no its not naivete so much as it is pure ignorance. thats right. a comp winning bber is using 900mg a week total. ive been up to 4g a week. where are my trophies? ;) pro level guys use more of one drug than most peoples weekly total. hell most use more test ED than most guys weekly total. half a gram of test daily is common for these guys.
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just hate having to IED with Prop
EOD is fine man, even every two days. Even with sky rocketing prolactin levels and high estrogen, I've never had issues pinning prop irregularly. Some of the shit takes a while to cleave from the ester and if you've been on for a month or two you can go a decent amount of time missing shots.
I always do EOD but sometimes I get sick of pinning and will take a week to a few weeks off. Once I start feeling smaller I'll pin again.
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Ive done test e, c, and prop at various times in stacks and as stand-alones
I stay lean as a cock (sub 8%) all year round while using and while clean so I definitely see changes
at 500 mg/week I haven't seen much difference between enanthate and cypionate - increased strength and size, constant libido, sustained rock solid erections, increased aggression (not a bad thing in my perspective especially combined with high libido)
unfortunately I get a bloofy moon-face and water retention around my mid section, lots of sweating, plus bacne (not terrible but enough to occupy my wife)
on test prop 1.5 cc eod (I forget the exact mg per ml) I was gtg in less than 4 days - hard, dry, full
on prop I didn't hold any water and I could trace my ab veins up to my ribs - ridiculous
the only disadvantage to prop, I found, was that the injection site hurt like a son of a bitch for days after, making squats difficult after pinning my quads. I still sweat a lot too
for me the perfect cycle would be 100 mg test prop + 100 mg tren ace eod or ed - guaranteed muscle god in days (provided you're LEAN!!!!!! - these miracle drugs are wasted on fat people)
as an aside, I love tren ace but it gives me serious ED requiring daily cialis and/or test stack - ironic that it makes me look like a sex god, yet leaves me struggling to maintain an erection - not worth it . . .
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Don't wish to cause a row but what makes you think the pro friends you have tell you the truth about what they take?
Of course they do ding dong, use your head, one of them tells me he does at least a gram a day, everyday year round, ya he is lying? read between the lines bro.
obviously if someone says he killed ten men with machine guns using a broom stick, you got to be fucken stupid to believe it.
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Of course they do ding dong, use your head, one of them tells me he does at least a gram a day, everyday year round, ya he is lying? read between the lines bro.
obviously if someone says he killed ten men with machine guns using a broom stick, you got to be fucken stupid to believe it.
Lying, well he may just be taking the piss. ???
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Lying, well he may just be taking the piss. ???
ya taking the piss while I am in the man's kitchen looking at his 300 bottle stash, bro you are acting like you are 12 years old that just picked up a muscle and fitness, your rational on everything has been a little off as of late. ;)
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Ive done test e, c, and prop at various times in stacks and as stand-alones
I stay lean as a cock (sub 8%) all year round while using and while clean so I definitely see changes
at 500 mg/week I haven't seen much difference between enanthate and cypionate - increased strength and size, constant libido, sustained rock solid erections, increased aggression (not a bad thing in my perspective especially combined with high libido)
unfortunately I get a bloofy moon-face and water retention around my mid section, lots of sweating, plus bacne (not terrible but enough to occupy my wife)
on test prop 1.5 cc eod (I forget the exact mg per ml) I was gtg in less than 4 days - hard, dry, full
on prop I didn't hold any water and I could trace my ab veins up to my ribs - ridiculous
the only disadvantage to prop, I found, was that the injection site hurt like a son of a bitch for days after, making squats difficult after pinning my quads. I still sweat a lot too
for me the perfect cycle would be 100 mg test prop + 100 mg tren ace eod or ed - guaranteed muscle god in days (provided you're LEAN!!!!!! - these miracle drugs are wasted on fat people)
as an aside, I love tren ace but it gives me serious ED requiring daily cialis and/or test stack - ironic that it makes me look like a sex god, yet leaves me struggling to maintain an erection - not worth it . . .
Thanks for the post
What about nipple sensitivity while on tren?
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tren i think is kinda ultimate bitch tits maker for those with predisposition.
for me, there was no warning time, no sensitivity, the gyno grow LITERALY and i mena that, overnight.
not joking.
its a very good steroid, but this bitchtits issue is there, and im not sure id tell ppl using "caber" will prevent that, bc i simply wouldnt know.
some people get gyno from tren and other 19nors and some get it from test. and some lucky fucks dont get it from either.
i can run 19 nors all day, ive stacked a gram of NPP with 500mg tren and no issues at all.
on the other hand though, ive run 500mg test e and my nips flared up bad. same with dbol, and anadrol.
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some people get gyno from tren and other 19nors and some get it from test. and some lucky fucks dont get it from either.
i can run 19 nors all day, ive stacked a gram of NPP with 500mg tren and no issues at all.
on the other hand though, ive run 500mg test e and my nips flared up bad. same with dbol, and anadrol.
On this note, I get a prolactin flare up once every year or every other year. Nipples will get puffy and no amount of AI will help. Cabergoline helps the best and I can fuck like a pornstar. I've tried observing things as carefully as possible to find out how I fix the problem each time but it seems to go away on it's own. I like suicidal AIs and a bit of caber. I go from having some sketchy pseudo gyno to nothing at all and 100% perfectly normal nipples and no problems with the sex drive.
I've tried getting blood work but no matter how I swing it the doctors never want to let me get my prolactin checked out in succession. Have had a multitude of blood work and maybe the thyroid or IGF-1 has some part to play. All those hormones can fuck things up and cause gyno. I try shutting down IGF-1 with nolvadex too and I think it might help, but it's all so tough to say. Way too many hormones and too many variables to try guessing. I had an appointment to get my gyno cut out but after my flare up subsided the surgeon said there's nothing to cut out.
I'd just recommend to anyone who gets flare ups to cut out the 19-nors when they do, go on some nolvadex and an AI like aromasin and get a dopamine receptor agonist like cabergoline or whatever agrees with your body. I've found caber to be the most forgiving and the most abundant without being faked or underdosed. Don't go overboard and use too much because it can fuck you up. Just use a little and sooner turn to letro than upping the caber dose. Your sex drive will get shut down but you can probably mitigate the growth and slow it down pretty quickly. I also recommend stable, low dose test. Don't fuck around with sust or anything, just some test prop EOD and low dose.
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On this note, I get a prolactin flare up once every year or every other year. Nipples will get puffy and no amount of AI will help. Cabergoline helps the best and I can fuck like a pornstar. I've tried observing things as carefully as possible to find out how I fix the problem each time but it seems to go away on it's own. I like suicidal AIs and a bit of caber. I go from having some sketchy pseudo gyno to nothing at all and 100% perfectly normal nipples and no problems with the sex drive.
Excellent thread! (Mod's please don't move to steroid board. LOL!)
Dustin, how does cabegoline compare to nolvadex or Arimidex? And what do you mean by "suicidal AI's"?
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Excellent thread! (Mod's please don't move to steroid board. LOL!)
Dustin, how does cabegoline compare to nolvadex or Arimidex? And what do you mean by "suicidal AI's"?
Exemestane or Aromasin is supposed to permanently bind to the estrogen receptor, leaving no possibility for aromatase to bind. Although in my experience it's not permanent, but it does work well and is a good long term solution. That's why they call it a suicidal inhibitor. I think it's a bit more forgiving too because you can some something like letrozole and that'll shut you right down before you know it. The adverse side affects take a while to feel, so by the time your dick is limp as a bowl of ramen and your joints are screaming in pain you're done. You want something that'll work differently than conventional aromatase inhibitors because there's already a plethora to choose from. Multiple tools in your arsenal is the way to go. And sometimes blocking aromatase rather than killing it helps to keep other shit from going out of whack.
Dostinex or Cabergoline is a dopamine and serotonin receptor agonist. I like it a bit better than Pramipexole and Bromocriptine. I just don't seem to get any side affects from it and it agrees with my body. I've heard others say the same about the latter, but because of it's availability I'd sooner recommend the caber.
When prolactin, estrogen and IGF-1 are high then that's the precise environment that a woman's body creates when she's preparing for childbirth. As guys, we don't want to be lactating or creating an environment where our breast tissues are growing in anticipation for childbirth and subsequent lactation and breast feeding. Not unless maybe you're a tranny or a lady boy. So by taking AIs and dopamine receptor agonists in tandem you're approaching it from multiple fronts. It's also a smart idea to shut down IGF-1 with some Tamoxifen Citrate/Nolvadex as well. I know "teh gainz", but it's either that or grow titties. I don't think IGF-1 is the primary reason for hypertrophy and I've done plenty of growing while taking nolva, so I don't think people should fear this.
Everyone's got different genetic makeup and a different endocrine system. I'm told by endocrinologists and my fertility doctor that even the thyroid has a part to play, so we're just throwing drugs into the mix and hoping for the best. By understanding what causes gyno, we can take steps to mitigate it. And in my experience just pinning regularly is one of the best things you could do. I don't like long test esters either. For one, saturating your blood quickly seems to work better, even if you take a lot more of a longer ester mg for mg. I won't say why I believe this, I'm just confident that this is true. And I believe that when you have test lingering in your system there's a higher probability that some of it will be aromatized and turned into estrogen sooner than it'll be utilized as free or bound test. That's just what I believe from my own experience. Maybe others are different, but I see a lot of people echoing similar ideas.
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Caber reduces prolactin secretion, I used not to like it compared to prami but having used both on prescription caber is much more effective at a low dose. Caber does reduce igf quite drastically even at low doses ( by bb standards) 1 mg a week drops prolactin to zero for me on. 500 mg tren so I don't know wtf guys are doing taking 1 mg eod
Prolactin gyno is a bitch, leaking bloody puss milk when you squeeze your nipples SUCKS. Even with low igf and low e2 I can develop it on the nandrolones
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Caber reduces prolactin secretion, I used not to like it compared to prami but having used both on prescription caber is much more effective at a low dose.
Prolactin gyno is a bitch, leaking bloody puss milk when you squeeze your nipples SUCKS. Even with low igf and low e2 I can develop it on the nandrolones
Yep. I know you're not supposed to but I can't help but to give it a squeeze. It sprays out of the montgomery bumps. I used to wait a few weeks to "save it up" and give it a good squeeze. Fucking disgusting, but satisfying like popping a zit. 8)
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Lol I know that feeling
Apparently squeezing it simulates a baby suckling which causes the gland to produce more man milk. I'm no cswole but I think l need gyno surgery if I ever get to 8% as I have glands grown
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Lol I know that feeling
Apparently squeezing it simulates a baby suckling which causes the gland to produce more man milk. I'm no cswole but I think l need gyno surgery if I ever get to 8% as I have glands grown
lol that's precisely why I feel so much remorse every time I squeeze them! I know I shouldn't be doing it, but it feels like they need to be milked.
Every time I do it I'm thinking "fuck, I should really stop pinning and fucking with my body". But because I always do it in the bathroom the mirror's right there and I start posing down for a good 20 minutes or until my wife asks what the fuck I'm doing. I'm milking my tits and posing down - FUCK OFF!! 8)
You ever throw down a fuck ton of letro in desperation? My glands were hard as rocks and as large as marbles but now they're gone. Everyone says you can't get rid of hard gyno but pseudo gyno can be dealt with sans surgery. Mine are fine though. Seen a few friends blast it with letro with varying degrees of success. Much better to have a limp dick and sore joints than to fork out $4k for surgery. I simply lucked out. Had a couple of consultations and was about to book time off work and it suddenly disappeared.
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Ive done test e, c, and prop at various times in stacks and as stand-alones
I stay lean as a cock (sub 8%) all year round while using and while clean so I definitely see changes
at 500 mg/week I haven't seen much difference between enanthate and cypionate - increased strength and size, constant libido, sustained rock solid erections, increased aggression (not a bad thing in my perspective especially combined with high libido)
unfortunately I get a bloofy moon-face and water retention around my mid section, lots of sweating, plus bacne (not terrible but enough to occupy my wife)
on test prop 1.5 cc eod (I forget the exact mg per ml) I was gtg in less than 4 days - hard, dry, full
on prop I didn't hold any water and I could trace my ab veins up to my ribs - ridiculous
the only disadvantage to prop, I found, was that the injection site hurt like a son of a bitch for days after, making squats difficult after pinning my quads. I still sweat a lot too
for me the perfect cycle would be 100 mg test prop + 100 mg tren ace eod or ed - guaranteed muscle god in days (provided you're LEAN!!!!!! - these miracle drugs are wasted on fat people)
as an aside, I love tren ace but it gives me serious ED requiring daily cialis and/or test stack - ironic that it makes me look like a sex god, yet leaves me struggling to maintain an erection - not worth it . . .
don't let A_amed see that, he'll claim you're delusional/anorexic or just flat out lying. ::)
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Ya I guess, I would not know cause I never take low doses ;D lmao
AWESOME! ;D
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lol that's precisely why I feel so much remorse every time I squeeze them! I know I shouldn't be doing it, but it feels like they need to be milked.
Every time I do it I'm thinking "fuck, I should really stop pinning and fucking with my body". But because I always do it in the bathroom the mirror's right there and I start posing down for a good 20 minutes or until my wife asks what the fuck I'm doing. I'm milking my tits and posing down - FUCK OFF!! 8)
You ever throw down a fuck ton of letro in desperation? My glands were hard as rocks and as large as marbles but now they're gone. Everyone says you can't get rid of hard gyno but pseudo gyno can be dealt with sans surgery. Mine are fine though. Seen a few friends blast it with letro with varying degrees of success. Much better to have a limp dick and sore joints than to fork out $4k for surgery. I simply lucked out. Had a couple of consultations and was about to book time off work and it suddenly disappeared.
this is what im planning on doing soon. i have lumps, about the size of a nickel. i can see them thru nearly any shirt i wear and it pisses me off cus thats the worst physical side i have gotten. acne is something i can deal with especially since my face is nearly always pretty clear just my back gets all nasty when i swap compounds especially tren. this has led me to believe that next time i run tren, im going to taper it down rather then just go off of it. my face is nearly perfect, but my back is spotted up nicely.
i want to blast some pharm grade letro to kill the shit out of it, but i have no idea when the best time would be to do this...! ive just begun my offseason a couple weeks ago, running deca with low test and its really great im not having any issues at all. the right lump is the size of a quarter and the left one is a nickel sized lump. the right one is worse by far, and actually hard. left side isnt really hard but its there. im going to cruise starting late november just 1cc enanthate weekly.
what would you guys recommend though? OTH and galeniko espically
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^ i know you asked gal and oth, but i say get the shit cut out and up the dose bro. dont dance around it couse you'll be skirting around it the rest of your life.
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^ i know you asked gal and oth, but i say get the shit cut out and up the dose bro. dont dance around it couse you'll be skirting around it the rest of your life.
i asked everyone but specifically them..
if i could afford it man i would do it in a heart beat. insurance dont cover it. only thing i have for now is try and use letro to get it down as much as possible and keep it down until i can afford to get it cut out which will be quite a long time since im still in school
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^ i know you asked gal and oth, but i say get the shit cut out and up the dose bro. dont dance around it couse you'll be skirting around it the rest of your life.
haha yes dose will be upped my man! gotta wait for this deca to plateau me first though. 750mg of deca ought to have me in the mid 220s low 230s just gotta wait and pound the food. thank god nandrolone doesnt do anything bad to me- i can run a gram of it and have no issues, but 500mg of test or 40mg of dbol is a totally different story.
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i think all compounds do not affect all people the same, despite what 'coventional wisdom' or research suggests.
i know that tren ace turns me into a porn star (ok, bigger porn star) and that NPP causes me to shed like crazy. conventional wisdom says neither should happen.
i think people should experiment with such compounds with out any preconcieved notions, pay attention to what is going on in their body, and create an expectation based on experience rather than supposition.
:)
it's two different topics.
obviously everyone is different. that's not broscience, it's science actually. when doctor prescribes pills to your girls it's same as us with drugs. it's all trial and error because everyone is different.
you see, I know people who said it's impossible to get bloated face on 200mg/week of test. I do. They tell me I'm seeing things. Then my real life friends can notice the difference, not even bodybuilders - just average people. There's no fucking theory that says - oh, it's impossible, bla bla.
But then again, when you have some really simple claim like - does saw palmetto help with prostate growth then it's VERY simple to evaluate whether it's true or not. all it takes is gathering control groups, perform double blind study, 1st year of college math and voila.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110927161640.htm
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yes i say the same, recklessly let it happen(i know sounds like joke but its not), and then have it cut out, i also recommend taking all the gland out, or it can happen again lol.
but ill adress the question as asked anyway.
but this is how you treat gyno, by operation.
if you have an enemy you hate alot, and have option to temporarly knock him out but you know he will be back, and the option is to wipe him off the face of the earth, what you do? ;D
besides, the gyno op separetes the pussys from the men, when suffered that, youll know if you really love this sport or not.
many have been like "uh, ill never do this again" after the op.haha ;D
lol idc bout operations ive had like 5 and all before i turned 18 haha. not a problem for me, in fact i like hospitals
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This is a great thread, good replies all around
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hm but hows less aromatization possible?
i mean, when the ester is disregarded, test is test, no? ???
will it be down to less acumulation effect?
yeah takes kinda long to peak no doubt, but after 2-3 weeks, one is kinda almost at peak on e, more or less, would you say that is the only difference?
why couple hours before workout, would it matter if its 24hrs before? ???
yes chiro, the sides on many kind of gears seem random, and often individual.only test long esters sides are documented really well and somewhat consistent.
all the rest suddenly changes in the "black book".
one example now its being said tren isnt as androgenic as always believed, but just extremly anabolic.
i mean how can the view on such a thing change by 180degree suddenly?and hows that established in the first place anyway, the anablic androgenic ration?those number always seemed like bs to me anyway
No I also feel stronger on Test prop. The injections can be somewhat painfull but it kicks Test E's ass. leaner gains ,faster strength gains. I am just to impatient to use Test E alone. I like using both Test prop and Test E. I like suspebnsion the most but I lost my aquaviron hookup.
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No I also feel stronger on Test prop. The injections can be somewhat painfull but it kicks Test E's ass. leaner gains ,faster strength gains. I am just to impatient to use Test E alone. I like using both Test prop and Test E. I like suspebnsion the most but I lost my aquaviron hookup.
i agree with this
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I have a lot of friends who are IFBB pros bro, lots and they all use deca and d-bol at one point or another, they use everything, enlighten us, you know something we don't?
than chances are they are not very good pro,s and they will be lot better if they stop takin them.some people are genetic freaks they can grow on almost anything even on 6 month expire stuff.most pro,s are genetic freaks they would not be pro bodybuilders other wise.that made genetically inferior people think they are on shit load of gear.thats the biggest confusion in bodybuilding circuits and i dont see any change in it in near future actually chances are it will get worse.great news for dealers.that is why even if pro telling you what he is on you will never believe him.so they dont bother or tell you something you want to hear.remmember the cycle dorian wrote on MD did anyone belive that....No..i am no body why some one would believe me but if you are wise just give it a try and take deca and dbol out of your stack. guaranteed quality physique high sex drive stamina and strength.if 600gm prop,500gm tren,1000mg bold 10iu GH on off days can not make you a pro in few year time than stop wasting you money and be a recreational weight trainer.
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than chances are they are not very good pro,s and they will be lot better if they stop takin them.some people are genetic freaks they can grow on almost anything even on 6 month expire stuff.most pro,s are genetic freaks they would not be pro bodybuilders other wise.that made genetically inferior people think they are on shit load of gear.thats the biggest confusion in bodybuilding circuits and i dont see any change in it in near future actually chances are it will get worse.great news for dealers.that is why even if pro telling you what he is on you will never believe him.so they dont bother or tell you something you want to hear.remmember the cycle dorian wrote on MD did anyone belive that....No..i am no body why some one would believe me but if you are wise just give it a try and take deca and dbol out of your stack. guaranteed quality physique high sex drive stamina and strength.if 600gm prop,500gm tren,1000mg bold 10iu GH on off days can not make you a pro in few year time than stop wasting you money and be a recreational weight trainer.
double or triple those doses then i think its time to throw in the towel.
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yes i say the same, recklessly let it happen(i know sounds like joke but its not), and then have it cut out, i also recommend taking all the gland out, or it can happen again lol.
but ill adress the question as asked anyway.
but this is how you treat gyno, by operation.
if you have an enemy you hate alot, and have option to temporarly knock him out but you know he will be back, and the option is to wipe him off the face of the earth, what you do? ;D
besides, the gyno op separetes the pussys from the men, when suffered that, youll know if you really love this sport or not.
many have been like "uh, ill never do this again" after the op.haha ;D
;) :-*
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I am not reading all this shit. Tell us in short.
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I am not reading all this shit. Tell us in short.
take test p unless you want to be a bag of puffy water :)
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take test p unless you want to be a bag of puffy water :)
Thanks
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take test p unless you want to be a bag of puffy water :)
and then it goes into some gyno talk too
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yah, but recovery, the p doesnt even come close.
well you can use both esters just use 100mg of Test prop Eod and 250mg of Test E twice a week. I just like the faster acting esters that goes with tren,masteron,deca. I prefer Masteron propionate, Trenbolone acetate, and NPP. I dont like longer acting esters , the short ester form of Tren,Masteron and nPP are better -IMO. I don't know who would choose Tren E over Tren A or masteron E over masteron P same goes for Test I rather use Test E or better yet suspension but I also like sust, If I use Test E I also use Test P as well.
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well you can use both esters just use 100mg of Test prop Eod and 250mg of Test E twice a week. I just like the faster acting esters that goes with tren,masteron,deca. I prefer Masteron propionate, Trenbolone acetate, and NPP. I dont like longer acting esters , the short ester form of Tren,Masteron and nPP are better -IMO. I don't know who would choose Tren E over Tren A or masteron E over masteron P same goes for Test I rather use Test E or better yet suspension but I also like sust, If I use Test E I also use Test P as well.
see i loved NPP when i ran it it was a great compound IMO. BUT the gains left very quickly and i dont think it added a whole lot of actual muscle to me. i wasnt running a wimpy dose either i used 300mg EOD which is a lot. i got really full on it, and not much extra water retention but as soon as i stopped using it the gains dropped off within about 2-4 weeks. now this is my first run with deca, so i cant say i know whats going to happen exactly, but my friend who ran only 10 weeks of deca and test e at 600mg each, he STILL looks like he ran a hell of a cycle and this is 8 months AFTER he went cold turkey- didnt even cruise or PCT or anything just went off. ive heard a lot of similar correlating reports about this difference between NPP and deca from others as well.
WW what do you think about this
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Just lift.
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well you can use both esters just use 100mg of Test prop Eod and 250mg of Test E twice a week. I just like the faster acting esters that goes with tren,masteron,deca. I prefer Masteron propionate, Trenbolone acetate, and NPP. I dont like longer acting esters , the short ester form of Tren,Masteron and nPP are better -IMO. I don't know who would choose Tren E over Tren A or masteron E over masteron P same goes for Test I rather use Test E or better yet suspension but I also like sust, If I use Test E I also use Test P as well.
this is enough to give most people the type of water issues they are trying to avoid.
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this is enough to give most people the type of water issues they are trying to avoid.
yeah. ideally- test base ed. but that shit hurts if you dont cut it with sterile oil. or if your source sucks
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Why do you need to inject test E twice a week?
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I doubt you really NEED to but I feel better doing 1cc test E twice per week over 2 cc once per week.
Less moody, higher sex drive, fuller looking etc.. Just my experience.
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I doubt you really NEED to but I feel better doing 1cc test E twice per week over 2 cc once per week.
Less moody, higher sex drive, fuller looking etc.. Just my experience.
Was under the impression you should avoid extra scar tissue whenever possible, might give it a go...I'm a novice ;D
Whats a typical stack look like for you?
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Was under the impression you should avoid extra scar tissue whenever possible, might give it a go...I'm a novice ;D
Whats a typical stack look like for you?
Speaking on the scar tissue issue. The argue could be made that more volume (2cc's) per shot could leave more scar tissue then multiple shots with half the volume.
I'm just running 600mgs Test Per week at the moment.
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Speaking on the scar tissue issue. The argue could be made that more volume (2cc's) per shot could leave more scar tissue then multiple shots with half the volume.
I'm just running 600mgs Test Per week at the moment.
Interesting...never heard that before!
Test E I assume, guessing you aren't cruising at that dose, so why just test?
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Test E I assume, guessing you aren't cruising at that dose, so why just test?
Test E yes, no not cruising, 600mgs is the most I have ever run actually.
I like the look that just test E gives me. i dont hold a ton of water like others but I do like to hold a bit.
Cannot run tren on any dose. nips puff right up and I turn into an absolute asshole, far worse then I am now. :D
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Gal, so if I were to run 300mg a week of test E, you'd suggest splitting that into 2/3 shots?
I will be upping the dose soon, just been OFF for a few months and waiting for student loan ;D
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Speaking on the scar tissue issue. The argue could be made that more volume (2cc's) per shot could leave more scar tissue then multiple shots with half the volume.
I'm just running 600mgs Test Per week at the moment.
get rid for the 23G 1 inch syringes and back load a 5/8's insulin pin and you'll never have to worry about it.
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get rid for the 23G 1 inch syringes and back load a 5/8's insulin pin and you'll never have to worry about it.
I've been able to find 27g and 30 g luer lock needles. Much less time consuming..
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I've been able to find 27g and 30 g luer lock needles. Much less time consuming..
ya insulin pins are money for any kind of oil. fuck those horse gauge pins.
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get rid for the 23G 1 inch syringes and back load a 5/8's insulin pin and you'll never have to worry about it.
damn i love my 23g 1.5s and i have used plenty of slin pins. i hate short needles i lose oil too often with them. 1nch minimum for everything except triceps but ive only done those a couple of times. used a 5/8 pin and felt i could have defo gone deeper. i put my 1x weekly 2.5 cc of deca and .5cc of test half and half in each delt with a 25g 1" pin. glutes for anything over 3cc though. cant do quads anymore i just get pain from them. put the oil DEEP in the muscle, stops you losing oil and you wont bleed for shit AND no stupid looking lumps anywhere.
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ya insulin pins are money for any kind of oil. fuck those horse gauge pins.
I just wish they came a little longer to get deeper in the muscle. I can see an oil lump at injection sites with these 1/2 inch needles lol
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damn i love my 23g 1.5s and i have used plenty of slin pins. i hate short needles i lose oil too often with them. 1nch minimum for everything except triceps but ive only done those a couple of times. used a 5/8 pin and felt i could have defo gone deeper. i put my 1x weekly 2.5 cc of deca and .5cc of test half and half in each delt with a 25g 1" pin. glutes for anything over 3cc though. cant do quads anymore i just get pain from them. put the oil DEEP in the muscle, stops you losing oil and you wont bleed for shit AND no stupid looking lumps anywhere.
i never get lumps w a 5/8ths slin pin, and i ALWAYS got them w a 23g. go figure.
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i never get lumps w a 5/8ths slin pin, and i ALWAYS got them w a 23g. go figure.
What injection sites do you use?
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I just wish they came a little longer to get deeper in the muscle. I can see an oil lump at injection sites with these 1/2 inch needles lol
go a half cc per site. i use delts exculsively.
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i never get lumps w a 5/8ths slin pin, and i ALWAYS got them w a 23g. go figure.
really? damn i hate slins. they dont hurt and i guess are more conveniant.. but my gear is so damn thin it leaks out and I HATE losing gear as should any of us.. get it nice and deep and no worries. i dont mind a bit of pain for that benefit. plus im always scared that tiny little slin pin needle is going to bend in me or break off in side me haha
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same exact thing for me.
the test e look while not eating like a swine is quite something, best quality with just the right amount of bit water, which helps so much in so many things.
tren, same here, niples grow and inflame immediately, so fast that its scary ,like an alergic reaction.
the other who run 500 or less and hold tons of water its all their own fault,they dont diet properly.
test e is disastrous on a shit diet, absolute catasrophic things will happen.
yup, diet must be strict on test E or you will look like shit. strict diet + test E = optimal look IMO
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go a half cc per site. i use delts exculsively.
oh that explains it then. i put up to 1.5cc in my delts. half cc is nothing to put in there.
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Gal, so if I were to run 300mg a week of test E, you'd suggest splitting that into 2/3 shots?
I will be upping the dose soon, just been OFF for a few months and waiting for student loan ;D
nah, 300mgs is not big enough dose to split. i would start splitting the dose to twice per week at the 500mg dose
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go a half cc per site. i use delts exculsively.
No wonder...maybe 2ccs is a little excessive lol
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get rid for the 23G 1 inch syringes and back load a 5/8's insulin pin and you'll never have to worry about it.
i inject with 25G but i get your point on the slin pins. i have done it before, takes a little too long to push out for my taste.
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go a half cc per site. i use delts exculsively.
i just switched over to delts a couple months ago after years of quad and glute shots. i dont know what the fuck I was waiting for, delts are fucken painless. add to that the little extra temporary size i get in each delt from the cc of test in each delt each week and its a win win.
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i just switched over to delts a couple months ago after years of quad and glute shots. i dont know what the fuck I was waiting for, delts are fucken painless. add to that the little extra temporary size i get in each delt from the cc of test in each delt each week and its a win win.
plus your delts look huge for a few days ;D even if its just temporary..
get it nice and deep use a 1 inch needle. your delts are big you can go deep in there trust me
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plus your delts look huge for a few days ;D even if its just temporary..
get it nice and deep use a 1 inch needle. your delts are big you can go deep in there trust me
yes, thats exactly what i just said. lol
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Speaking on the scar tissue issue. The argue could be made that more volume (2cc's) per shot could leave more scar tissue then multiple shots with half the volume.
I'm just running 600mgs Test Per week at the moment.
This is what I've been lead to believe as well. Test E/C twice a week for me.
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get rid for the 23G 1 inch syringes and back load a 5/8's insulin pin and you'll never have to worry about it.
Boom! This!
The only shots I've ever used for any AAS is 27guage 1/2" Slin pins. So easy and painless.
I'm a low dose guy though, I've never had the need to inject more than 1 cc at a time.
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yup, diet must be strict on test E or you will look like shit. strict diet + test E = optimal look IMO
my diet is complete shit and I don't look like shit... and i'm on 4 guy's weekly doses worth of Enanthate. lol
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my diet is complete shit and I don't look like shit...
post a current pic or that statement means nothing.
nothing personal bro, just a ton of bullshitters around here.
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post a current pic or that statement means nothing.
nothing personal bro, just a ton of bullshitters around here.
my diet is shit too bro though it has improved in the last week :)
i just made a whole thread with pictures.
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post a current pic or that statement means nothing.
nothing personal bro, just a ton of bullshitters around here.
on work comp now. i'll see if I can edit out my face and tat's later on my laptop. i'm not a computer genius. and i'm not about to ID myself to prove a bunch of nobody's wrong.
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you DO look like shit.
well... i'm on a fucking billboard... soo.... I think some would disagree.
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thanks no one and bounce
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I REALLY do think that water retention is way overrated when the diet is ok.
fuck... in that picture, I was on test400 and deca
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as what?the before pic of a diet scam? ;D
lol
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I REALLY do think that water retention is way overrated when the diet is ok.
fuck... in that picture, I was on test400 and deca
nice build bro looking lean and dry! wow thats a lot of test to run with deca, id bloat up bad on that combo.
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nice build bro looking lean and dry! wow thats a lot of test to run with deca, id bloat up bad on that combo.
that's from a few years ago
I didn't have much money so I took what I had in hand
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this is enough to give most people the type of water issues they are trying to avoid.
using just 300mg of Test prop and 500mg of test E shouldn't give you much water retention at all and if it does use anchileries that is what they are meant for. Most people shoot Test E twice a week. Nowadys I don't use these amounts but I used to without water retention. I got water retention from orals.
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that's from a few years ago
I didn't have much money so I took what I had in hand
haha i know the feelin all too well..
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using just 300mg of Test prop and 500mg of test E shouldn't give you much water retention at all and if it does use anchileries that is what they are meant for. Most people shoot Test E twice a week. Nowadys I don't use these amounts but I used to without water retention. I got water retention from orals.
i shoot test e once a week but half a cc only. if i used more id split it up into MWF pins
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see i loved NPP when i ran it it was a great compound IMO. BUT the gains left very quickly and i dont think it added a whole lot of actual muscle to me. i wasnt running a wimpy dose either i used 300mg EOD which is a lot. i got really full on it, and not much extra water retention but as soon as i stopped using it the gains dropped off within about 2-4 weeks. now this is my first run with deca, so i cant say i know whats going to happen exactly, but my friend who ran only 10 weeks of deca and test e at 600mg each, he STILL looks like he ran a hell of a cycle and this is 8 months AFTER he went cold turkey- didnt even cruise or PCT or anything just went off. ive heard a lot of similar correlating reports about this difference between NPP and deca from others as well.
WW what do you think about this
I think nandrolone decanoate takes a long time to peak on and I am not patient. That is why I like NPP. I have used nandrolone decanoate and by the 2nd week i still was waiting for the gear to start kicking in the outcome was not that diffrent to me I think it can be individually based because I like the NPP better.The gains with most steroids seem to fade unless you bridge but some guys if they train real hard and maybe they are bridging with another compund can still keep those deca gains longer(maybe your friend is just a good responder to nandrolone decanoate or just kept working out real hard.I find it hard to believe he wasn't bridging with another steroid,all gains fade unless you bridge or keep dosing up) for the majority of guys even nandrolone decanoate gains will fade not as fast as NPP gains but I just can't stand waiting for nandrolone decanoate to kick in so that is why I prefer NPP.
Another vgreat method is to use Both! use nandrolone decanoate and use NPP for a few weeks till the nandrolone decanoate starts to kick in.I like the gains from NPP better personally,but everybody is diffrent
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yeah. ideally- test base ed. but that shit hurts if you dont cut it with sterile oil. or if your source sucks
I love Test base everybody on here knows I like anabolic steroids that work faast and I used to get aquaviron amps that were not that painfull and did not bloat you to bad and a little water is to be expected on any Test ester and any water problem can be fixed.
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I REALLY do think that water retention is way overrated when the diet is ok.
fuck... in that picture, I was on test400 and deca
A beautiful smile like that can get any Montreal tranny's mojo goin'!
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A beautiful smile like that can get any Montreal tranny's mojo goin'!
loooooooooooooollll
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I think nandrolone decanoate takes a long time to peak on and I am not patient. That is why I like NPP. I have used nandrolone decanoate and by the 2nd week i still was waiting for the gear to start kicking in the outcome was not that diffrent to me I think it can be individually based because I like the NPP better.The gains with most steroids seem to fade unless you bridge but some guys if they train real hard and maybe they are bridging with another compund can still keep those deca gains longer(maybe your friend is just a good responder to nandrolone decanoate or just kept working out real hard.I find it hard to believe he wasn't bridging with another steroid,all gains fade unless you bridge or keep dosing up) for the majority of guys even nandrolone decanoate gains will fade not as fast as NPP gains but I just can't stand waiting for nandrolone decanoate to kick in so that is why I prefer NPP.
Another vgreat method is to use Both! use nandrolone decanoate and use NPP for a few weeks till the nandrolone decanoate starts to kick in.I like the gains from NPP better personally,but everybody is diffrent
Yeah I did a little front load and I am noticing it already and im in middle of week three on 750mg. The highish dose might be the cause of it kicking in faster though cus the hormone IS being released just it's not fully release. I'm expecting the gains to start piling on in the coming months cus I'm running this till November at least. Then I'm probably going to cruise which leads me to the question... any one here used a low dose of deca to cruise on? Say 300mg.
Oh an I know my buddy wasnt cruising or running any thing else cus I hooked him up;) guy literally knew Jack shit about gear.
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Anybody want to share data from tests to back up any of these broscientific claims?
yes because universities are falling over themselves to test the difference between gym rat dosages of different test esters ::)
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yes because universities are falling over themselves to test the difference between gym rat dosages of different test esters ::)
yes because getting hormone panels/blood tests done during cycles of different compounds and comparing the data requires university involvement ::)
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yes because getting hormone panels/blood tests done during cycles of different compounds and comparing the data requires university involvement ::)
I just went off what I felt and what seemed to kick in faster and how I looked in the mirror never got bloodwork done till after the cycle. way after.
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I know gal, OTH, not sure about no one, but they don't use AI's.
Water retention can be controlled for the most part by AI's. Even on a shit diet and 1g+ of test, you won't sport a moon face and edema type retention.
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Ai do more harm to me.
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yes because getting hormone panels/blood tests done during cycles of different compounds and comparing the data requires university involvement ::)
sorry bro i changed the lab in my house into a dining room il get it swapped back round and get on it
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That doesn't answer the questions about the rate at which each compound "builds up" and such
what exactly are you asking ??? , paper work shows, prop is in the fastest and out the fastest, test cyp is in the slowest and out the slowest and test e is close to test cyp but a little slower.
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I REALLY do think that water retention is way overrated when the diet is ok.
fuck... in that picture, I was on test400 and deca
Great pecs!
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I know my abc's, p comes after e.
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my problem with AI's is that your using one compound to offset the sides from another compound. I don't believe in this. just don't use those compounds which cause the sides or lower the dose. like using a diuretic. why use a diuretic when you can control your carbs instead and the compounds that cause the retention.
if you can work around it, work around it instead of turning your body into a chemical dumpsite. you'll be healthier for it. when everyone's bodies are tapping out from years of a use you'll still look great long after. and really, for me that's what it's all about. longevity and looking good for years to come.
to each their own. almost fell into the trap. like using clonopin to help me sleep when on high dose tren. finally I was like what the fuck am I doing?! for what, you know? at that point I made a decision to be healthier. my body has rewarded me for it. if your body is holding water there's a reason for it. eliminate the reason. don't mask the problem with more drugs. work with your body not against it
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my problem with AI's is that your using one compound to offset the sides from another compound. I don't believe in this. just don't use those compounds which cause the sides or lower the dose. like using a diuretic. why use a diuretic when you can control your carbs instead and the compounds that cause the retention.
if you can work around it, work around it instead of turning your body into a chemical dumpsite. you'll be healthier for it. when everyone's bodies are tapping out from years of a use you'll still look great long after. and really, for me that's what it's all about. longevity and looking good for years to come.
to each their own. almost fell into the trap. like using clonopin to help me sleep when on high dose tren. finally I was like what the fuck am I doing?! for what, you know? at that point I made a decision to be healthier. my body has rewarded me for it. if your body is holding water there's a reason for it. eliminate the reason. don't mask the problem with more drugs. work with your body not against it
Good post
I once knew a guy who took ephedrine to train and then Nubian to sleep later??
I suggested he stop using ephedrine, he didn't listen and ended up his wife kicked him out and he ended up with all his veins shot in his arms and a heroine addict.
Hes fine now by the way.
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fucking hell something we all agree on
dont take drugs to combat the effect of the other drugs you take its a slippery slope
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ya dude this past time attracts compulsive personalities plus lets face it if you don't have a body image disorder when you start you'll soon have one albeit in varying degrees of complexity.
combine all those factors it's easy to see how guys fall into the trap of using this compound to offset that anabolic using this rec drug to offset the pain from sore joints, using ghb to sleep. etc etc.
so you get to a point where all of a sudden your 5 ways fucked and don't know how it happened. not good. some guys grow out if it, and use this past time for the right reasons. the rest either burn out (david dearth that barbarian brother, Derek Anthony ) die (art atwood, nasser, chris benoit and how many others) or quit- how many guys in their 40's still even try? how many guys just quit training- 70-80%? that's why I got such mad respect for groink and yes, you :D cause at 40 shit changes. the body is different. less adaptable to stress. poorer recovery rate. so much harder now than when we were 30. and that what makes the victory of achievement that much sweeter.
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ya dude this past time attracts compulsive personalities plus lets face it if you don't have a body image disorder when you start you'll soon have one albeit in varying degrees of complexity.
combine all those factors it's easy to see how guys fall into the trap of using this compound to offset that anabolic using this rec drug to offset the pain from sore joints, using ghb to sleep. etc etc.
so you get to a point where all of a sudden your 5 ways fucked and don't know how it happened. not good. some guys grow out if it, and use this past time for the right reasons. the rest either burn out (david dearth that barbarian brother, Derek Anthony ) die (art atwood, nasser, chris benoit and how many others) or quit- how many guys in their 40's still even try? how many guys just quit training- 70-80%? that's why I got such mad respect for groink and yes, you :D cause at 40 shit changes. the body is different. less adaptable to stress. poorer recovery rate. so much harder now than when we were 30. and that what makes the victory of achievement that much sweeter.
thanks brother. Yup that's exactly how I feel, you took the words out of my mouth. I get tempted all the time to go balls out and run a hefty cycle and turn into a freak of nature..., but then I think of what I could be doing to myself health wise, I'm not a kid, not even close these days. So I bitch out again, and run a nother little tren cycle.
and when I come off, there is no PCT involved... I just deal with it and get 100 percent clean. I'm sure Jeff can attest to this as well, but it's funny because everyone here call me arrogant and self centered... I probably appreciate my physique more than anyone else here and every day that I can still hold on to it is a blessing
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thanks brother. Yup that's exactly how I feel, you took the words out of my mouth. I get tempted all the time to go balls out and run a hefty cycle and turn into a freak of nature..., but then I think of what I could be doing to myself health wise, I'm not a kid, not even close these days. So I bitch out again, and run a nother little tren cycle.
and when I come off, there is no PCT involved... I just deal with it and get 100 percent clean. I'm sure Jeff can attest to this as well, but it's funny because everyone here call me arrogant and self centered... I probably appreciate my physique more than anyone else here and every day that I can still hold on to it is a blessing
nice to see an element of humbleness
we are all fighting our age
the older you get the more it means
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groink why come off. esp at our age? just run low dose year round and keep and eye to your bloodwork. test is much more than an anabolic to create or preserve lean tissue, it's our sex hormone, keeps us younger, improves our overall mental state. so much upside to just staying on if your smart about it. esp now lets be honest- we've lived the best half of our lives. might as well squeeze what we can out of the last half, but with an eye to our overall health and well being.
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my problem with AI's is that your using one compound to offset the sides from another compound. I don't believe in this. just don't use those compounds which cause the sides or lower the dose. like using a diuretic. why use a diuretic when you can control your carbs instead and the compounds that cause the retention.
if you can work around it, work around it instead of turning your body into a chemical dumpsite. you'll be healthier for it. when everyone's bodies are tapping out from years of a use you'll still look great long after. and really, for me that's what it's all about. longevity and looking good for years to come.
to each their own. almost fell into the trap. like using clonopin to help me sleep when on high dose tren. finally I was like what the fuck am I doing?! for what, you know? at that point I made a decision to be healthier. my body has rewarded me for it. if your body is holding water there's a reason for it. eliminate the reason. don't mask the problem with more drugs. work with your body not against it
I totally agree with you here, however i am one to not care how I look until the finishing product has arrived, so I would never use an AI cause I don't care how much water retention I have until the day of.
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what exactly are you asking ??? , paper work shows, prop is in the fastest and out the fastest, test cyp is in the slowest and out the slowest and test e is close to test cyp but a little slower.
The interesting thing is that Test E actually increases plasma levels faster than prop. It has a longer "tail" though, so it's longer acting. Within like 8 hours there's a big increase in test from enanthate.
I looked it up a while ago when that joker Emeric Delzceg made this claim, I doubted it but checked the reference he gave and it was correct.
I could find it again if anyone is at all interested but won't bother otherwise. :D
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post a current pic or that statement means nothing.
nothing personal bro, just a ton of bullshitters around here.
Bouncer is living the dream.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sztCMNFK1K4/SwMbMejHixI/AAAAAAAAENQ/8nweMTy8RQI/s400/big+red.jpg)
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groink why come off. esp at our age? just run low dose year round and keep and eye to your bloodwork. test is much more than an anabolic to create or preserve lean tissue, it's our sex hormone, keeps us younger, improves our overall mental state. so much upside to just staying on if your smart about it. esp now lets be honest- we've lived the best half of our lives. might as well squeeze what we can out of the last half, but with an eye to our overall health and well being.
The problem some people have is that they can't always be sure they can get what they need. How many great sources have went down, or scammed at some point? Some people can't throw a bunch of Watson and doctor visits on their insurance.
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The interesting thing is that Test E actually increases plasma levels faster than prop. It has a longer "tail" though, so it's longer acting. Within like 8 hours there's a big increase in test from enanthate.
I looked it up a while ago when that joker Emeric Delzceg made this claim, I doubted it but checked the reference he gave and it was correct.
I could find it again if anyone is at all interested but won't bother otherwise. :D
This IS true, I have seen the research you are referring to.... but IIRC it was test cyp.
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This IS true, I have seen the research you are referring to.... but IIRC it was test cyp.
I'm pretty sure it was Enanthate.
But in any case I also saw some recent comments from this guy who calls himself "Animal", the guy who made/makes tren kits. Sharp guy with an abrasive personality. He said Cyp is a type pf ester that the body tries to get rid of quick due to it being a "complicated ester", that it probably isn't as bioavailable as Enanthate, and that it's inferior to E.
He also made the claim that Tren Hex behaves almsot identically to Tren Ace as far as pharmacokinetics. But I don't know chemistry and can't look at a chemical formula and make any type of deductions, so I don't know if there's anything to what he says.
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The interesting thing is that Test E actually increases plasma levels faster than prop. It has a longer "tail" though, so it's longer acting. Within like 8 hours there's a big increase in test from enanthate.
I looked it up a while ago when that joker Emeric Delzceg made this claim, I doubted it but checked the reference he gave and it was correct.
I could find it again if anyone is at all interested but won't bother otherwise. :D
I actually agree with this somewhat, every time I take a lay off, I take 500 mg of test e and within 24 hours i am feeling it big time. So ya it goes in real fast.
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I'm pretty sure it was Enanthate.
But in any case I also saw some recent comments from this guy who calls himself "Animal", the guy who made/makes tren kits. Sharp guy with an abrasive personality. He said Cyp is a type pf ester that the body tries to get rid of quick due to it being a "complicated ester", that it probably isn't as bioavailable as Enanthate, and that it's inferior to E.
He also made the claim that Tren Hex behaves almsot identically to Tren Ace as far as pharmacokinetics. But I don't know chemistry and can't look at a chemical formula and make any type of deductions, so I don't know if there's anything to what he says.
Do you have any insight on that trestolone acetate I'm taking ? I think it's very effective... I'm curious what the chemical guys. Around the boards think of it
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Do you have any insight on that trestolone acetate I'm taking ? I think it's very effective... I'm curious what the chemical guys. Around the boards think of it
It's called taking a pharmacy.
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I'm pretty sure it was Enanthate.
But in any case I also saw some recent comments from this guy who calls himself "Animal", the guy who made/makes tren kits. Sharp guy with an abrasive personality. He said Cyp is a type pf ester that the body tries to get rid of quick due to it being a "complicated ester", that it probably isn't as bioavailable as Enanthate, and that it's inferior to E.
He also made the claim that Tren Hex behaves almsot identically to Tren Ace as far as pharmacokinetics. But I don't know chemistry and can't look at a chemical formula and make any type of deductions, so I don't know if there's anything to what he says.
Is Animal still around? is a-kits still up? haven't heard from him in fucking years! (was Mr.Vega on VariX a decade ago. lol)
I've always used/preferred test e since reading literature pointing out a 2-3day 'peak' and a 11-13 day half life.. which I why I switched to 2-3day/wk inj's of enan. besides, it's easier to produce 300-350mg/ml enan (as opposed to cyp), so it cuts oil from 15cc's down to 8-10cc's per week.
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Van, I've been given some tren hex its 50mg/ml - seen some varied responses to how often you should pin it, was going to go with EOD - what do you reckon?
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It's called taking a pharmacy.
Really... it's an OTC prohormone genius.
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Do you have any insight on that trestolone acetate I'm taking ? I think it's very effective... I'm curious what the chemical guys. Around the boards think of it
insight about what? tren ace in general? or a particular 'brand'?
in general, it's the absolute king of anabolic steroids. mg per mg nothing is more effective. (well, except a couple orals.. but safety-wise, you can't run them more than a month).
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Really... it's an OTC prohormone genius.
::)
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insight about what? tren ace in general? or a particular 'brand'?
in general, it's the absolute king of anabolic steroids. mg per mg nothing is more effective. (well, except a couple orals.. but safety-wise, you can't run them more than a month).
No bud....trestolone... it's not a typo. It's a new desigher. They sell it as methyl-tren 550 in capsule form.
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Is Animal still around? is a-kits still up? haven't heard from him in fucking years! (was Mr.Vega on VariX a decade ago. lol)
I've always used/preferred test e since reading literature pointing out a 2-3day 'peak' and a 11-13 day half life.. which I why I switched to 2-3day/wk inj's of enan. besides, it's easier to produce 300-350mg/ml enan (as opposed to cyp), so it cuts oil from 15cc's down to 8-10cc's per week.
Yeah he has a forum still, don't know if it's invite only or what, but my log-in still works and I check it occasionally.
Enanthate actually only has a half life of about 4 days (3.8 days +/- 0.9 days). I was arguing about this with OTH a while back but that's what the textbooks say. I know online steroid profiles say 10.5 day half-life but there's no references anywhere for that claim.
Pharmacology of testosterone preparations
H.M. Behre, C. Wang, D.J. Handelsman and E. Nieschlag
(http://i40.tinypic.com/6t0jux.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2dgkzlv.jpg)
Notice the T-Max (The amount of time that a drug is present at the maximum concentration in serum) values between prop and enanthate.
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Do you have any insight on that trestolone acetate I'm taking ? I think it's very effective... I'm curious what the chemical guys. Around the boards think of it
I don't know anything about, never looked for info on that compound. Trestolone is MENT, wasn't the product you're taking some type of pro-hormone for trestolone?
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insight about what? tren ace in general? or a particular 'brand'?
in general, it's the absolute king of anabolic steroids. mg per mg nothing is more effective. (well, except a couple orals.. but safety-wise, you can't run them more than a month).
bullshit. save nonsense like this for bbing.com where everyone just repeats what they hear online in order to look like they know what they are talking about.
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bullshit. save nonsense like this for bbing.com where everyone just repeats what they hear online in order to look like they know what they are talking about.
Coming from the guy who loves the feeling of throbbing kidneys.
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The jaw and throat pain I got from adex was horrible. I feel bad for people with cancer that take this shit.
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Coming from the guy who loves the feeling of throbbing kidneys.
fuck off gimp. there are men talking here. go participate in one of army of cums many worthless threads cause your 0.02 isn't welcome, noticed or even cared for here.
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fuck off gimp. there are men talking here. go participate in one of army of cums many worthless threads cause your 0.02 isn't welcome, noticed or even cared for here.
My point was valid. You enjoy painful kidneys. Why should someone listen to you? What if they do not enjoy the suffering like you do?
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My point was valid. You enjoy painful kidneys. Why should someone listen to you? What if they do not enjoy the suffering like you do?
people will listen to me cause unlike you some people care about what they look like, and some of us unlike you know what they are talking about and can contribute more to a discussion than your stupidity. lol
epic irony coming from a guy who's destroying his liver. I get my blood work done 2x a year. you? my kidneys and associated blood work show no elevations that are alarming let alone troubling.
you on the other hand are obese, ugly and stupid.
:D
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people will listen to me cause unlike you some people care about what they look like, and some of us unlike you know what they are talking about and can contribute more to a discussion than your stupidity. lol
epic irony coming from a guy who's destroying his liver. I get my blood work done 2x a year. you? my kidneys and associated blood work show no elevations that are alarming let alone troubling.
you on the other hand are obese, ugly and stupid.
:D
;D
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my problem with AI's is that your using one compound to offset the sides from another compound. I don't believe in this. just don't use those compounds which cause the sides or lower the dose. like using a diuretic. why use a diuretic when you can control your carbs instead and the compounds that cause the retention.
if you can work around it, work around it instead of turning your body into a chemical dumpsite. you'll be healthier for it. when everyone's bodies are tapping out from years of a use you'll still look great long after. and really, for me that's what it's all about. longevity and looking good for years to come.
to each their own. almost fell into the trap. like using clonopin to help me sleep when on high dose tren. finally I was like what the fuck am I doing?! for what, you know? at that point I made a decision to be healthier. my body has rewarded me for it. if your body is holding water there's a reason for it. eliminate the reason. don't mask the problem with more drugs. work with your body not against it
while I see your point, if i followed this i would not even be able to use test. my nips puff up and slowly develop gyno even as low as 300mgs test e per week. so i use nolv (very low dose 10mgs per day is enough) to prevent gyno from forming.
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will you please shut the fuck up or contribute something useful for once?jesus wept
the bouncer is actualy living the life, he doing things you couldnt even dream of.if you knew, youd down a gallon of vodka.the bouncer has been places and is very discreet and smart guy, meanwhile , you are a daft alcoholi self pitying twatfaced idiot.
any human with least self respect would have withdrawn from this board.
serious start own threads, asshole-face, stay out where you cant contribute useful things on the topic.
you girl are clogging up the best threads with your caco[phonia-verbal diarrhea
its about time ron does something about this.
stay out of the decent threads, mongoloid
Stop being so damn serious. There are only a few ways to pin a donkey.
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choke on aids infested cock, you piece of vomit
Hateful post reported to Ron. Actually, I didn't report anything to Ron. I am not Gallonpussy.
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bullshit. save nonsense like this for bbing.com where everyone just repeats what they hear online in order to look like they know what they are talking about.
ok fuckface, how long would you run Mibolerone or methyltrienolone? 6 months? or is it the mg/mg reference you were talking about? you wanna compare a mg of methytri to a mg or trenbolone?
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fuck off, you look like shit and try to make up for that by talking baloonies about exotic drugs.what a clown.
listen, bufoon, can tell whatever you want about drugs, the drugs arent what is gonna make or break a physique.
theres no secret super exotic drug out there thatll do magical things.
whateverr you have ran, you look like a bloofy mess.
nothing 'exotic' dude. methyltri is no more 'exotic' than halo.
what ever happened to your t3 and methyltest 'stack' and eating ants for protein Nicky poo? u ever perfect your "Garage door presses"? ::)
and a 'bloofy mess'? bwhahaha...
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yo, i dont hope anything bad for you, but dont be suprised if it happens anyway some time later on.
fuck that, i will chug letro like shitstainzo chugs booze.
you will never see gyno on me homeslice. 8)
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I totally agree with you here, however i am one to not care how I look until the finishing product has arrived, so I would never use an AI cause I don't care how much water retention I have until the day of.
Do you not find an AI would help stay leaner not just with water but fat as aromitizing gear can increase fat too right? And what about gyno lumps or did you get the op. Also when you are water logged pre contest dont you wonder how your condition is progressing, its hard to guage where your at with bloat.
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Do you not find an AI would help stay leaner not just with water but fat as aromitizing gear can increase fat too right? And what about gyno lumps or did you get the op. Also when you are water logged pre contest dont you wonder how your condition is progressing, its hard to guage where your at with bloat.
My objective is 2 things and only 2 things and what happens in between means nothing to me, zero, nada.
1. get all the body fat off.
2. get all the water out.
That is it, simple as abc, AI is not needed for my objectives.
And yes got the operation done, cost me over 5 grand ;)
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And yes got the operation done, cost me over 5 grand ;)
did they do a good job? i have seen some where the nip looks inverted and makes the chest look almost as bad as pre surgery.
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did they do a good job? i have seen some where the nip looks inverted and makes the chest look almost as bad as pre surgery.
My pics, that I am sure you may have seen are all taken post operation, it looks great, that was over 5 years ago, have not touched one AI or nothing and not a single sign of any return of gyno whatsoever, so hats off to Dr. Lista, the best of the best in my neck of the woods.
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Lots of good info in this thread, especially that study Van_Bilderass posted come as surprise for me.
Gal/no one what do you personally consider as ideal dosage when the goal is fullness but keeping water retention at bay when going to use test E only(using the ,,diet,, and under 6% BF)? 500mg?
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Lots of good info in this thread, especially that study Van_Bilderass posted come as surprise for me.
Gal/no one what do you personally consider as ideal dosage when the goal is fullness but keeping water retention at bay when going to use test E only(using the ,,diet,, and under 6% BF)? 500mg?
are you saying you love the cock
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Lots of good info in this thread, especially that study Van_Bilderass posted come as surprise for me.
Gal/no one what do you personally consider as ideal dosage when the goal is fullness but keeping water retention at bay when going to use test E only(using the ,,diet,, and under 6% BF)? 500mg?
hey dude imo 500 is too high.
I personally wouldn't go higher than 250-350mg a week if you want 'fullness' w/o the water and round off the rest of the mgs your looking to run w anavar NPP a touch of tren or winny if that's your compound if choice.
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long esters are worthless. Takes several weeks to start seeing any results, make you retain water, and stay in your system for long after you stop, meaning you are on them longer.
Prop + any short ester over long esters any day. Only downside is more pinning.
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what ever happened to sust250
best of all worlds ???
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It doesnt take several weeks to start seeing results from long esters, I am on test cyp after 6 weeks off and am bigger and thicker after 12 days.
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long esters are worthless. Takes several weeks to start seeing any results, make you retain water, and stay in your system for long after you stop, meaning you are on them longer.
Prop + any short ester over long esters any day. Only downside is more pinning.
sorry but this post is totally incorrect.
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what ever happened to sust250
best of all worlds ???
I'll have to try it in the scope of this diet so I can see what's it's really about. I've run more of that oil than Mobil but not ultra low cal. I'm curious actually. I've just been so taken w the enanthate ester (even tren e and mast e ) Im like a fat kid on a cake i just can't pry myself off of it.
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gonna have 25 pages of 3 guys arguing over prop and enanthate.
if you think prop is great and somebody doesn't agree, you're not gonna convince him otherwise. big deal. keep doing what you're doing.
is prop good? of course, it's testosterone. but if you're running 2-3g, the amount of oil needed is a pain in the ass so it's probably a poor option.
if you're gonna pin 100mg/ml stuff everyday, why not just use TNE?
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sorry but this post is totally incorrect.
Explain what is incorrect about it
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gonna have 25 pages of 3 guys arguing over prop and enanthate.
if you think prop is great and somebody doesn't agree, you're not gonna convince him otherwise. big deal. keep doing what you're doing.
is prop good? of course, it's testosterone. but if you're running 2-3g, the amount of oil needed is a pain in the ass so it's probably a poor option.
if you're gonna pin 100mg/ml stuff everyday, why not just use TNE?
its called a discussion board twinkles step away from the crack pipe
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I wish I could get Nebido. An amp in each glute and one in each thigh and I'm sure I'd be good to go for a month if not two. I'm so lazy that breaking out my box of gear and loading my syringes even once weekly is a chore. :D
Half-life is like 10x that of Enanthate. :D
(https://www.nebido.com/html/images/upload/Patients/nebido/image2g.jpg)
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Explain what is incorrect about it
pretty much everything that is written below.
long esters are worthless. Takes several weeks to start seeing any results, make you retain water, and stay in your system for long after you stop, meaning you are on them longer.
Prop + any short ester over long esters any day. Only downside is more pinning.
the only correct thing you said about enanthate in this post was that it stays in your system longer.
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I wish I could get Nebido. An amp in each glute and one in each thigh and I'm sure I'd be good to go for a month if not two. I'm so lazy that breaking out my box of gear and loading my syringes even once weekly is a chore. :D
Half-life is like 10x that of Enanthate. :D
(https://www.nebido.com/html/images/upload/Patients/nebido/image2g.jpg)
wtf? I'm going to look into this.
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wtf? I'm going to look into this.
Page 22 of this document:
http://www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com/resources/articles/ebooks/testosterone_ads/chapter14.pdf
http://www.nebido.com/
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pretty much everything that is written below.
the only correct thing you said about enanthate in this post was that it stays in your system longer.
Since this seems to be a "my facts are right and yours are wrong" argument, I stand by my "facts."
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...............
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Since this seems to be a "my facts are right and yours are wrong" argument, I stand by my "facts."
I wanted to reply to a few posts in this thread, but i couldn't find the studies to back it up.
I clearly remember reading Heavy Iron's posts in regards to the following subjects. (They were based off studies with graphs and data)
1)
- All three AI's at the standard dose, letro(2.5mg/day)/adex(1mg/day)/asin(25mg/day), were given to natural healthy young males, and they reduced their circulating estrogen by an average of 50%.
- Adex was tested in elderly men, and there were no negative health affects observed.
2)
- Long esters such as Enenthate, cypronate, and deconate, all reach peak plasma levels withing 24-48hrs post injection, then they maintain for a while before starting to slowly drop off if no further injections are administered.
...My experience with Test P vs E, is labido increase through the roof. Sometimes i get boners out of no where 2-3times/day as if i was thirteen again. lol
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Since this seems to be a "my facts are right and yours are wrong" argument, I stand by my "facts."
lol ok. good for you.
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the nebido oil would surely be absorbed into your body long before the theoretical half life of the oil had been reached?
I cant imagine the roller coaster that shit would put you on, Endos don't care about things like that which is why you'd be insane to let one manage your HRT - their main concern is that patients don't like injections, and anything else is secondary (like the actual effects of one shot a month of 1000mg!)
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I wish I could get Nebido. An amp in each glute and one in each thigh and I'm sure I'd be good to go for a month if not two. I'm so lazy that breaking out my box of gear and loading my syringes even once weekly is a chore. :D
Half-life is like 10x that of Enanthate. :D
(https://www.nebido.com/html/images/upload/Patients/nebido/image2g.jpg)
Isn't Nebido in danger of being pulled out of pharmacies? I heard that there are studies showing that people aren't tolerating it, mostly because they've got a few ml bolus of oil sitting in their arse and they aren't sadomasochistic buggers like bodybuilders who just push through scar tissue and pin like there's no tomorrow.
I know the easy solution is to just pin a couple of times per month and to rotate injection sites but I'm not the doctor prescribing and administering the stuff. I've thought about searching it out in the past. Although I love prop, pinning EOD gets fucking old and half the reason why I stop most cycles is because I get a build up of anxiety and can't pin for a few weeks. I can go a few months pinning EOD and then I hit a wall and can't do it.
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I cant imagine the roller coaster that shit would put you on,
Nah, enanthate too will fluctuate even with once weekly administration. Look at the link I provided, how stable it is once you reach steady state etc. The textbook says the pharmacokinetics are a big improvement compared to previously used preparations like enanthate and cypionate.
The available testosterone esters for intramuscular injection (testosterone propionate,
testosterone enanthate, testosterone cypionate, testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate) are still
widely used but suboptimal for the treatment of male hypogonadism. Doses and injection
intervals most frequently used in the clinic lead to initial supraphysiological testosterone levels
and subnormal values before the next injection. To obtain testosterone serum concentrations
continuously in the normal range, unacceptably frequent small doses would have to be injected.
Intramuscular injection of 1000mg testosterone undecanoate to hypogonadal men maintains
serum levels of testosterone within the normal range for up to 12 weeks. Recently approved for
clinical use, intramuscular testosterone undecanoate will become a valuable preparation for
depot substitution therapy of male hypogonadism and for male contraception
Isn't Nebido in danger of being pulled out of pharmacies? I heard that there are studies showing that people aren't tolerating it, mostly because they've got a few ml bolus of oil sitting in their arse and they aren't sadomasochistic buggers like bodybuilders who just push through scar tissue and pin like there's no tomorrow.
I didn't see any such studies. If you find them please post. Nebido replaced Testoviron (test E) here in Sweden. Only injectable available here. I don't think 4ml is hard to tolerate, though the package insert says the injection has to be deep and very slow. Always gluteal injection.
Because of the relatively low concentration of 125mg testosterone undecanoate per milliliter tea seed oil, how ever, administration of the 1000mg dose requires an injection volume of 8 ml which renders intramuscular administration impracticable.Therefore, the preparation
was reformulated and testosterone undecanoate dissolved in castor oil at a higher concentration of 250 mg/ml
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I didn't see any such studies. If you find them please post. Nebido replaced Testoviron (test E) here in Sweden. Only injectable available here. I don't think 4ml is hard to tolerate, though the package insert says the injection has to be deep and very slow.
It was on a private board I'm not on anymore. I have no complaints though, but I can imagine for a lay person that getting a full barrel in the ass wouldn't feel too well. We're amped up and in eager anticipation for teh gainz, they just want their dinkies to work and to feel regular again.
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It was on a private board I'm not on anymore. I have no complaints though, but I can imagine for a lay person that getting a full barrel in the ass wouldn't feel too well. We're amped up and in eager anticipation for teh gainz, they just want their dinkies to work and to feel regular again.
Never tried undecanoate, but I hardly feel 6ml of pharma grade enanthate in the ass, even after not pinning the ass for a couple of months. :D
Many UG preparations can be horrible, even at 1ml.
Patient compliance is extremely important so I doubt Nebido is very painful. I doubt it would still be used if patients dreaded each shot. Even if there was some minor pain, rather some discomfort for a day or two every 2-3 months than weekly or bi-weekly shots.
Maybe someone here used it and can comment?
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Never tried undecanoate, but I hardly feel 6ml of pharma grade enanthate in the ass, even after not pinning the ass for a couple of months. :D
Many UG preparations can be horrible, even at 1ml.
Patient compliance is extremely important so I doubt Nebido is very painful. I doubt it would still be used if patients dreaded each shot. Even if there was some minor pain, rather some discomfort for a day or two every 2-3 months than weekly or bi-weekly shots.
Maybe someone here used it and can comment?
Conversely, I've tried some HG preparations that have hurt. I had some Karachi sust and a couple Shering products that were a bit more painful than some UGL gears that I've used. I've always really liked Sciroxx and a few other UGLs, but then again I've tried some Canadian gear that's damn near killed me and turned an entire limb red.
Patient compliance is important. If someone tenses up during a shot it can make it hurt like hell, but if they just accept it and relax their muscle then chances are that it won't be so bad. But for an older gent that's probably had to exhaust a few topical and oral medications I wonder how they may or may not tolerate a full barrel.
I've seen doctors who are also really shitty giving injections. But nurses who've rocked a couple of flu clinics though can pin people at a hundred miles an hour and deliver perfect shots. I got pinned at a flu clinic last year and the nurse who did it was awesome. I was still really big from being on cycle and I'm positive she knew I juiced when I complimented her on her technique lol
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this is untrue.test e works and spikes faster than prop.
also see bogros reply.
the water comes from shit diet and-or too high dosage.
stays in the sytem for long, yeah but whats so bad avout it?
I just like short esters bud. More pertinent to my goals
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no problem man, they all useful in one way or another 8)
For sure. Btw, that shrinking thing I planned on doing was cancelled. I'm getting laid so much that it's pointless. I will be cruising for 6 months though starting september 1 (let's see if I stick to it)
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Conversely, I've tried some HG preparations that have hurt. I had some Karachi sust and a couple Shering products that were a bit more painful than some UGL gears that I've used. I've always really liked Sciroxx and a few other UGLs, but then again I've tried some Canadian gear that's damn near killed me and turned an entire limb red.
Patient compliance is important. If someone tenses up during a shot it can make it hurt like hell, but if they just accept it and relax their muscle then chances are that it won't be so bad. But for an older gent that's probably had to exhaust a few topical and oral medications I wonder how they may or may not tolerate a full barrel.
I've seen doctors who are also really shitty giving injections. But nurses who've rocked a couple of flu clinics though can pin people at a hundred miles an hour and deliver perfect shots. I got pinned at a flu clinic last year and the nurse who did it was awesome. I was still really big from being on cycle and I'm positive she knew I juiced when I complimented her on her technique lol
Karachi's always left knots when I started, which is why I switched to primotestin. testoprim-d gave me the worst infections, fever, swelling, pain, ect... I've ever experienced.
well made UG stuff shouldn't hurt at all, even up to 300/ml.
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Nah, enanthate too will fluctuate even with once weekly administration. Look at the link I provided, how stable it is once you reach steady state etc. The textbook says the pharmacokinetics are a big improvement compared to previously used preparations like enanthate and cypionate.
I didn't see any such studies. If you find them please post. Nebido replaced Testoviron (test E) here in Sweden. Only injectable available here. I don't think 4ml is hard to tolerate, though the package insert says the injection has to be deep and very slow. Always gluteal injection.
Ah,yes castor oil is so thick it would take weeks to be absorbed.. Although as I understand it the aas molecules are absorbed from the outside of the bolus and can be all gone in a week even with heavy ester weight? Are there any sites you know that explanation this mechanism in more detail?
I notice that Ed pins with cyp give the same blood levels as Ed with prop.. But on tren my shbg drops to zero and that completely fucks up the transport of the test and its eliminated in hours
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The oil may be entirely absorbed rather quickly , but the test cannot bind to receptors until the ester has been cleaved off, no? And the longer the ester the longer the half life of the compound.... So in theory one could IV test cyp w/o affecting clearance rate much.... is this not correct?
I talked to one fellow who got 1000mg nebido every eight weeks. Said it worked great up until the last 2 weeks before the next shot
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Btw, that shrinking thing I planned on doing was cancelled. I'm getting laid so much that it's pointless. I will be cruising for 6 months though starting september 1 (let's see if I stick to it)
Time inconsistent preferences of peace
http://research.stlouisfed.org/pageone-economics/uploads/newsletter/2011/201109.pdf
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Karachi's always left knots when I started, which is why I switched to primotestin. testoprim-d gave me the worst infections, fever, swelling, pain, ect... I've ever experienced.
well made UG stuff shouldn't hurt at all, even up to 300/ml.
I know, man. I was reassured by a buddy when I got sketched out and thought I was sold some of the fake Karachi susts that were floating around at the time. I blew up shortly after that and it was one of my first cycles so it was undoubtedly real. But I was just surprised because it was HG gear and I thought it was going to be like shooting a vial of human grade GH in comparison to UGL gear. Got some Jelfa Omnadrens before the fakes hit the market too and it was also nice, but made me realize that HG wasn't the be all end all.
Was it Testim or something that was another super harsh HG gear? I remember buddies getting crippled by either that or some Italian test prop back in the day. All of it worked great. It's just surprising to pin HG gear and get knots and inflammation.