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Just got this off another board.......
I've just received an unconfirmed report that a 44 yr old male competitor has passed away in his hotel room at the NPC Masters Nationals in Pittsburgh. Information is sketchy..but I've been informed he was from Rhode Island...Once I confirm this rumor I will let you all know...A tragedy if true and I know we all send out condolences to his family.....
UPDATE:
It has been confirmed that the competitor was a 44 yr old male from Rhode Island named Anthony...A friend of Dave Palumbo's....preliminary indications set the cause of death as a heart attack....this is another sad day for BB....The guy was warned because he had a heart condition.......its just sad
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When will they learn?
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Damn....think it might be this guy....met him at the new englands last year.
He was an ok guy....easy to talk to
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/CONTACT.htm
Hope I'm wrong but he's from Rhode Island and he's on Palumbos board.
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44?? :(
I hope this is just a false rumor.
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When will they learn?
learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
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christ i think thats the guy i competed against in pittsburgh he hadded veins in his glutes ididn;t know that was possible
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christ i think thats the guy i competed against in pittsburgh he hadded veins in his glutes ididn;t know that was possible
You must have been pretty close to see that. :-\
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Tony was HUGE the last time I saw him. I hope it's not true. :'(
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I knew him pretty well, saw him at all the shows around here and at the Olympia a couple times. Anthony was a really good guy and this is very sad.
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rip
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Ron are you confirming this?
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you guys are RIP'ing someone before it's been confirmed.....
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Didn't know him, but very sad. I met him once years ago and he didn't look all that healthy back then. Just looked like the type of guy how might of had high blood pressure. RIP
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I am going there tomorrow, but I'm sure it will be confirmed or not by then.
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you guys are RIP'ing someone before it's been confirmed.....
"It has been confirmed that the competitor was a 44 yr old male from Rhode Island named Anthony...A friend of Dave Palumbo's....preliminary indications set the cause of death as a heart attack....this is another sad day for BB....The guy was warned because he had a heart condition.......its just sad"
try reading before posting.
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I just talked to Dave Palumbo - he was not in the mood to talk about it but did confirm it was true.
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I just talked to Dave Palumbo - he was not in the mood to talk about it but did confirm it was true.
Damn, that really is sad.
I didn't know him personally, but he is someone that I've seen before. It's always sad to someone die before age 65.
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
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Ron should be out researching this story. Guy has/had beautiful family.
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Well...
To be fair, people die.
Something the conservatives haven't figured out yet.
It's easy for us to blame bodybuilding drugs because it makes us feel more in control of our fate. Somebody from my university went to the hospital with symptoms of a stomach flu. Do you know what they told him after a few scans were performed?
"You have end stage pancreatic cancer and two days to live."
He ended up living for eight days and his 22nd birthday passed during that time.
He never touched a steroid in his life. Explain that one.
People die, and sometimes for no reason at all and way too young. Not to say the bodybuilding lifestyle didn't contribute, but there are plenty of lifelong juicers out there. Genetics do play a role in death, just as they play a role in bodybuilding.
My dad died of pancreatic cancer at age 57 and never did steroids in his life either. But what do steroids have to do with causing cancer? He lived for 10 months after being diagnosed, not 8 days.
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Well...
To be fair, people die.
Something the conservatives haven't figured out yet.
It's easy for us to blame bodybuilding drugs because it makes us feel more in control of our fate. Somebody from my university went to the hospital with symptoms of a stomach flu. Do you know what they told him after a few scans were performed?
"You have end stage pancreatic cancer and two days to live."
He ended up living for eight days and his 22nd birthday passed during that time.
He never touched a steroid in his life. Explain that one.
People die, and sometimes for no reason at all and way too young. Not to say the bodybuilding lifestyle didn't contribute, but there are plenty of lifelong juicers out there. Genetics do play a role in death, just as they play a role in bodybuilding.
Thats stupid! Bodybuilders are dropping like flyes cause these geniuses decide to keep uppin the doses all the time. Freaking morons!
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matt C, are you from st.john's, and i guess your talking about memorial university. what was the kids name who had the cancer if you dont mind me asking.
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Please have some respect for the man as none of us have any idea whether or not steroids played a role. Anthony was a stand-up guy and was very supportive of other bodybuilders. He was always very encouraging to me when it came to contests.
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RIP
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Damn sorry to hear.
Condolences to the family.
Just been alot of bodybuilders going down...it's because it's real hard to go to a doctor and get a check up, and not be fearful that the doctor is going to write something down etc etc. Maybe the guy did have a pre-existing heart condition and knew about it, but then again he might have known sooner if we didnt have a "bodybuilding" witchhunt going on in this country. >:(
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Glad I go for a physical once a year.... Some of my buddies haven't had physicals in decades....some of them smoke and party a lot too...few have already passed. A secreatary I work with talked with me today....her brother inlaw who is 34 was one of these guys....never went for a physical.
Just got diagnosed with testicular cancer...going through chemo now..... I'm due.....and I'm goin'
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JUST CALLED HIS CONTACT NUMBER AND GOT HIS MOM! :( IT IS TOO TRUE SHE SAID! I TOLD HER SHE HAS OUR PRAYERS! GOD BLESS HER AND HIS LOVED ONES!!!!!
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/CONTACT.htm
RIP!!!!!!!!!! :(...
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Question: is the incidence of heart related deaths of cancers really higher amongst the bodybuilding drug abusing population?
I'm pretty sure there is no correlation with cancer. As for heart disease, I'm uncertain.
Yeah directly and indirectly with steroids.
With GH YES, in fact they are working on a medicine that actually block growth hormone production to prevent cancer in those pre disposed with certain types of cancer mostly lung cancer.
Colon cancer breast cancer are the major ones casued by GH production
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RIP
Is that the original pic, Ken?
Damn, these guys take it WAY too far
RIP (well, they were, now they are just dead)
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Is that the original pic, Ken?
Damn, these guys take it WAY too far
RIP (well, they were, now they are just dead)
Actually...I was going to photo shop Dave's head but decided against it.....
it would be just wrong
;D
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Condolences to his family and friends. It always sucks when someone young passes away.
I'll probably get blasted for answering the question someone had about cancer and steriods but it was a legit question and no one answered.
Steriods destroy the thymus gland remnants and suppress the body's natural immune system. There's no simpler way to put it.
That's not opinion, just fact. If anyone says to the contrary and ask them to prove it. They give organ recipients steroids to suppress the immune system and prevent rejection. The body's T-cells mature in the thymic remnants, if that's destroyed where exactly are they supposed to mature? That's one of the reasons why people who use heavily in their teems are so suceptable to cancer later in life.
As far as the whole risk/reward thing goes.... only the individual can decide. In the same vein when we make decisions like that, good or bad, our loved ones should be taken into consideration.
OK, I'll go back to posting stupid crap now. :)
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Man that sucks so bad.. :'( :'( :'(
His poor family.. :'(
Its not worth it imho..not at all..
God bless his soul.
:(
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That's not opinion, just fact. If anyone says to the contrary and ask them to prove it. They give organ recipients steroids to suppress the immune system and prevent rejection.
WRONG, they give them cortico- steroids (not the same thing) and in fact that was years ago. Stop posting shit you know nothing about.
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Bump for Anthony.....
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/images/misc/pages/Untitled-22.htm
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WRONG, they give them cortico- steroids (not the same thing) and in fact that was years ago. Stop posting shit you know nothing about.
Jake is a doctor, so dont be nasty, you horrid man!
yeah he was probably fast tracked down the affirmative action highway, but still!!!
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damn RIP, i remember reading about this dude in Steve Neece's column in Musclemag like 8 or 9 years ago, he was supposedly very strong in the gym, sad, 44 is way too young.
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damn RIP, i remember reading about this dude in Steve Neece's column in Musclemag like 8 or 9 years ago, he was supposedly very strong in the gym, sad, 44 is way too young.
'Muscle Beach' great column!
BTW, what ever happened to Neece? he was the epitome of good health, I bet he is sipping Pims by the pool someplace
Great guy
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Condolences to his family and friends. It always sucks when someone young passes away.
I'll probably get blasted for answering the question someone had about cancer and steriods but it was a legit question and no one answered.
Steriods destroy the thymus gland remnants and suppress the body's natural immune system. There's no simpler way to put it.
That's not opinion, just fact. If anyone says to the contrary and ask them to prove it. They give organ recipients steroids to suppress the immune system and prevent rejection. The body's T-cells mature in the thymic remnants, if that's destroyed where exactly are they supposed to mature? That's one of the reasons why people who use heavily in their teems are so suceptable to cancer later in life.
As far as the whole risk/reward thing goes.... only the individual can decide. In the same vein when we make decisions like that, good or bad, our loved ones should be taken into consideration.
OK, I'll go back to posting stupid crap now. :)
Testosterone and other androgens can both suppress and boost immunity. It's more complex than saying either/or. I think there are two "arms of attack" to the immune system, humoral and cell mediated, or something like that and androgens can boost one of them etc.
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'Muscle Beach' great column!
BTW, what ever happened to Neece? he was the epitome of good health, I bet he is sipping Pims by the pool someplace
Great guy
he died too.
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'Muscle Beach' great column!
BTW, what ever happened to Neece? he was the epitome of good health, I bet he is sipping Pims by the pool someplace
Great guy
I think he's dead.
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I think he's dead.
he died too.
Aw, no way, damn, thats unlucky ;)
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Just got this off another board.......
I've just received an unconfirmed report that a 44 yr old male competitor has passed away in his hotel room at the NPC Masters Nationals in Pittsburgh. Information is sketchy..but I've been informed he was from Rhode Island...Once I confirm this rumor I will let you all know...A tragedy if true and I know we all send out condolences to his family.....
UPDATE:
It has been confirmed that the competitor was a 44 yr old male from Rhode Island named Anthony...A friend of Dave Palumbo's....preliminary indications set the cause of death as a heart attack....this is another sad day for BB....The guy was warned because he had a heart condition.......its just sad
Sad to say my friend is gone, i was on the phone with mike(friend of mine an anthony) who was in the room with anthony, the phone called ended abruptly and i got a call back few hours later with the news he wsa gone. Im numb and saddend i lost a friend an someone whos helped me for years. RIP big man. He loved this sport more then most can comprehend. Thats all i will say
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whats ba dis there is a pic of this guy on another post from the wiegh ins and the person who original posted the pictures put up a pic on anthiony and said wtf is this?
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fuck fuck fuck
anthony dead..............http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/
i knew anthony..............jes us
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I did no know Anthony but that's a sad news.
RIP :(
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
???
::)
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
most retarded statement ever... ???
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cause of death: the long misuse and abuse of hormones. like any other death in the last couple years,,,few are as a result of hormones + narcs and many is simply due to over loading the system with toxins nonstop,, exteremly high doses of orals (halos and anapolons)and unheard of high doses of the more harsh solutions made by ug basment/apt "labs" such as trenbolone ace and liquid halo and czech drops. DIRTY AND TOXIC. i blame UG OPERATIONS as part of death here. do you think palumbo and warren will live to see 50-60? i say try again.
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???
::)
To be honnest my friend Gordiano, I am starting to think like this guy.
My dad never smoked, drank, did drugs of anything that could be bad for his healt.
Last year he got really sick. They said he had liver problems because of his medications for epilepsy ( sorry if that isn't a word in english lol )
after that they found he had some types of leukymia that can't be threaded so he takes for 4k worth of medication per month right now..
My point is.... we can all get sick or die so why don't we just let the destiny take care of those problems why we can enjoy life a little bit
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most retarded statement ever... ???
that's right it was one of the more retarted statments i have seen on this board. if the person has kids,,,and wife,,,,and the guy as you can all tell was nothing to write home about when it comes to proffessional bodybuilding,,waste of life.
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1993 NPC Nationals - heavyweight class
Michael Francois - colitis - most of intestines removed
Dennis Newman - leukemia
Edgar Fletcher - severe dehydration/kidney failure - recovered
Don Long - kidney failure - transplant - on dialysis for life
Anthony D'Arezzo - dead, heart attack at 44
Curtis Leffler - dead, heart attack at 36
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
Thats right! You live by the IRON YOU DIE By the IRON. HARD FUCKING CORE!!!!!
LIVE TO SQUAT, SQUAT TO LIVE !!!!
BRO BRO BRO BRO! BURY ME BIG!!!!!!!!
::)
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I'll pour some protein shake on the ground for that bro.
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I'll pour some protein shake on the ground for that bro.
Right on BRO!
This weekend I am going to dedicate my chicken breasts,fresh fish and lean ground beef, all in memory for this fallen brother of Iron.
HARDCOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEE
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I went to the piano store today to pick out a coffin for when I'm 40 and drop dead.
IF YOU DON'T SKWAT YOU AIN'T SHIT!!!! BRO!!!
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I went to the piano store today to pick out a coffin for when I'm 40 and drop dead.
IF YOU DON'T SKWAT YOU AIN'T SHIT!!!! BRO!!!
Check it-
I say we take our empty protein containers and build some kind of monument behind the middle school auditorium where they hold the Mr. Pennsylvania contests.
What do you say Bros, for a fellow Iron Brother?
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TA, that's fucking genius bro. I might go down to the local mall and pour out 500 tubs of protein and build a protein sand sculpture in the image of this deceased bro. Then when it's done all the little bro's and bro'ettes can take a chunk of him and mix it with some milk and chug it for POSITIVE NITROGEN BALANCE!!!!!
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I went to the piano store today to pick out a coffin for when I'm 40 and drop dead.
IF YOU DON'T SKWAT YOU AIN'T SHIT!!!! BRO!!!
do you want to be buried in your gym attire? if a bodybuilder wants to keep it real for eternity then he should be buried wearing daisy dukes.
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TA, that's fucking genius bro. I might go down to the local mall and pour out 500 tubs of protein and build a protein sand sculpture in the image of this deceased bro. Then when it's done all the little bro's and bro'ettes can take a chunk of him and mix it with some milk and chug it for POSITIVE NITROGEN BALANCE!!!!!
What a way to go Bro, What a way to go!
When I die, I want to be burned mixed in some Kre-Alklyn creatine and placed at the headquarters of Gold`s. Iron Brother for life.
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I'm going to be a modern day muscle pharaoh. I'll have my enlarged organs put in jars and all my hammer strength and mono lift gear put in a tomb that will be sealed under my gym and hexed for eternity. There will be enough protein and eggs to last forever. I need the guy who draws MUSCLEHEADZ to do the hieroglyphics
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I'm going to be a modern day muscle pharaoh. I'll have my enlarged organs put in jars and all my hammer strength and mono lift gear put in a tomb that will be sealed under my gym and hexed for eternity. There will be enough protein and eggs to last forever. I need the guy who draws MUSCLEHEADZ to do the hieroglyphics
Now thats a LEGACY BRO!
I may have the local taxidermist stuff me and placed in a mock squat rack with plaque reading: "Even in Death there are no Excuses".
I can see it now, as an inspiration for all of the "Ab-shooters" to get their ass in the squat rack. Every Gym needs one.
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I 'may' be able to stretch to a moderate session on the BowFlex, followed by a Weider Mega Mass 2000 boxing day shit?
If this is of any help, count one in, ma blood!
Peace, out, and other superfluous golly shite
:D
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Does anybody know where I can get a used Soloflex for a good price?
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RIP :-[
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Yes, I am from St. John's. Frank McGrath actually trained at the gym at Memorial Univeristy. ;D
That province isn't even big enough for a provincial show yet every now and then a freak like Frank comes out of nowhere to make it big on the national scene. Imagine being the biggest man in a whole province?
But I left Newfoundland in 1989 and have been attending Lakehead University in Thunder Bay since 2001.
Bruce "Chris Thunder" Patterson is from the Maritimes too. You must be very proud . . .
(http://www.brucepatterson.com/_free/BestofBruce-PS2/images/bigbruce0683.jpg)
Rest In Peace - Tonight you are with the Lord
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Anyone know where I can get some Tie-Dyed Lifting straps?
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Anyone know where I can get some Tie-Dyed Lifting straps?
Tie-dyed? depends, do you mean hippy or homo?
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Gentleman...turn and face the front
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/images/misc/pages/a_pool3.htm
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WRONG, they give them cortico- steroids (not the same thing) and in fact that was years ago. Stop posting shit you know nothing about.
Why attack the messenger? Study some physiology, anatomy and stuff like that. It's not a matter of my being right, that's just the way things are. The body has all kinds of regulating processes, positve and negative, intentionally throwing them off upsets the balance. If someone starts using one or two things to grow muscle, something else to restore natural testosterone production, something else to remove water, something to cause erections, something for pain, someting to protect the liver, etc... you're creating an ideal environment for muscle growth at the expense of "normal" physiology. You also might want to take into account that some people are never really off cycle and their bodies don't get a break.
I'm not making any judgements on people at all. I'd much rather look at pics of Dina's beautiful booty or talk crap about "Bluto's" lust for man-meat than simple physiology. Those things fun and a break from my normal life. I'm mainly here for workout help and breaking balls.
In the same vein, it's irresponsible to pretend that steroid use has no risks just so people don't feel bad. It's sort of like cigarrette smoking.
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
your an idiot.
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Thats right! You live by the IRON YOU DIE By the IRON. HARD FUCKING CORE!!!!!
LIVE TO SQUAT, SQUAT TO LIVE !!!!
BRO BRO BRO BRO! BURY ME BIG!!!!!!!!
::)
You fags take my statement way out of context. Someone stated that these guys are never going to learn. I thought it ironic that Bodybuilders get attacked for what they do wrong while so many people live their lives never doing a goddamned thing they ever wanted to do and the other half from what I can see are a bunch of fast food eating lardasses who are going to die young too. So up your asses you fucktards... I wasn't making some kind of statement that his death was hardcore you fucking tards. It's very sad he's gone, I'm just saying celebrate his life instead of blaming him for his death after he's gone by saying these guys are never going to learn.
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Someone posts an advil bottle for a heart attack and I'm the moron :-\
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Someone posts an advil bottle for a heart attack and I'm the moron :-\
welcome to the club of selective enforcement.
you'll find people will post things ten times more tasteless, but you'll be bashed nonstop for something minor.
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Someone posts an advil bottle for a heart attack and I'm the moron :-\
Yep, for not getting the context...
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welcome to the club of selective enforcement.
you'll find people will post things ten times more tasteless, but you'll be bashed nonstop for something minor.
I would be open for it had not every one of the stupid fucktards taken the statement out of context like I was depicting his death as some kind of Iron hardcore rebel yell... Jesus... Stupid fuckers.. ::)
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You used my word buddy... ;D
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Yep, for not getting the context...
I got the context assholio. I'm well aware of all the Advil/roids posts made over the last year... Starting over Tom Prince... They're Kidney related retard... Unless I missed it, this was a heart attack. No one has ever blamed Advil for a heart attack... It would have been in context had he died of kidney failure jackass...
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You used my word buddy... ;D
What word is that mr. 77 posts ::)
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What word is that mr. 77 posts ::)
Yeah, I know that a couple thousand worthless ones are pretty much necessary. You guys should be thankful that anyone even posts here at all, except for all the "brilliant" gimmick accounts you fine "brothers" come up with.
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Yeah, I know that a couple thousand worthless ones are pretty much necessary. You guys should be thankful that anyone even posts here at all, except for all the "brilliant" gimmick accounts you fine "brothers" come up with.
Excellent response for being completely wrong on everything you said... ;D
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You must be alright bro...did I just admit that? :P
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I got the context assholio. I'm well aware of all the Advil/roids posts made over the last year... Starting over Tom Prince... They're Kidney related retard... Unless I missed it, this was a heart attack. No one has ever blamed Advil for a heart attack... It would have been in context had he died of kidney failure jackass...
Let me explain it for you:
"Advil" is a metaphor for the ridiculous bullshit justifications and excuses some people make for their issues, when the real problem is as obvious as a heart attack (pun intended).
Hope this helps
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Let me explain it for you:
"Advil" is a metaphor for the ridiculous bullshit justifications and excuses some people make for their issues, when the real problem is as obvious as a heart attack (pun intended).
Hope this helps
Gee, if you say so ::) Every context I've seen it used in was roid/kidney related... But if you say so,... metaphor ok, i buy that whatever like I give a fucking shit... It doesn't have anything to do with why i'm melting down anyway... You know what goatboy, shuuuv your hope this helps right up your fuuuuucking ass... f**k your texas hope this helps BS... My major melt was over people taking my statement out of context like I was saying his death was hardcore... Hope that helps you now stfu C U N T...
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Gee, if you say so ::) Every context I've seen it used in was roid/kidney related... But if you say so,... metaphor ok, i buy that whatever like I give a fucking shit... It doesn't have anything to do with why i'm melting down anyway... You know what goatboy, shuuuv your hope this helps right up your fuuuuucking ass... f**k your texas hope this helps BS... My major melt was over people taking my statement out of context like I was saying his death was hardcore... Hope that helps you now stfu pussy...
Sounds like someone put a little thermite in your support columns.
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Sounds like someone put a little thermite in your support columns.
I'm ready to fucking kill someone... I'm just in one of those,... yea,.... Berserker moods I get in from time to time... Severe case of David fucking Banner syndrome... Always had it... :-\
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Let me explain it for you:
"Advil" is a metaphor for the ridiculous bullshit justifications and excuses some people make for their issues, when the real problem is as obvious as a heart attack (pun intended).
Hope this helps
Exactly.
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Let me explain it for you:
"Advil" is a metaphor for the ridiculous bullshit justifications and excuses some people make for their issues, when the real problem is as obvious as a heart attack (pun intended).
Hope this helps
One last thing Mr. The bottle was Metaphor for Ridiculous Bullshit Justifications and Mr. True Dipshit... Who was making the Ridiculous Bullshit Justifications and Excuses for his death before the bottle was posted??? No wait, nevermind,,.... I really don't want to hear you fucking say Hope this helps one more goddamned time...
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Exactly.
I still wasn't saying his death was hardcore you asshole >:(
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Gee, if you say so ::) Every context I've seen it used in was roid/kidney related... But if you say so,... metaphor ok, i buy that whatever like I give a fucking shit... It doesn't have anything to do with why i'm melting down anyway... You know what goatboy, shuuuv your hope this helps right up your fuuuuucking ass... f**k your texas hope this helps BS... My major melt was over people taking my statement out of context like I was saying his death was hardcore... Hope that helps you now stfu C U N T...
Nice Meltdown. (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=82712.0;attach=88581;image)
::)
Hope this helps.
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Major Risk factors for heart attack: Age, sex (males at higher risk), family history (probably most important), hypertension, diabetes, smoking and dyslipidemia. Let us assume Anthony did nothing else but steroids; forget the GH, insulin, diuretics, etc. First of all, if he had any heart disease and continued steroids he was being foolish. The reason is the steroids are pro-atherogenic and screw people's cholesterol panel up nicely. He would have an increase in triglycerides and LDL (bad cholesterol). His good cholesterol would go down (HDL). This is undeniable fact. Look up anabolic steroids and their side effects. Moreover, assuming that he was taking non-pharmaceutical grade anabolics (probably vet grade from overseas) that were not prescribed by his family physician, there is a strong possibility that whatever the steroids injection medium may have some pro-inflammatory properties. For you googlers, look up C reactive protein and cardiovascular risk. It is has been proposed that a pro-inflammatory state by itself is a risk for cardiovascular events.
Now, if Anthony used insulin, GH and diuretics there is a very strong possibility that this combination could have put him over the edge. I would surmise he had dyslipidemia, high blood pressure and possibly diabetes (if he abused GH). Together, with his sex and age (near fifty), he was probably a walking time bomb. What is scary is that he is not an isolated incident. I would surmise that less than 10 percent of national level bodybuilders who routinely abuse this stuff get followed by a physician. I can gurantee one thing, a lot of these "Supermen" look like a 75 year old man inside. BB is a scary endeavor if you test the bounds, and don't do it simply for health.
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Why attack the messenger? Study some physiology, anatomy and stuff like that. It's not a matter of my being right, that's just the way things are. The body has all kinds of regulating processes, positve and negative, intentionally throwing them off upsets the balance. If someone starts using one or two things to grow muscle, something else to restore natural testosterone production, something else to remove water, something to cause erections, something for pain, someting to protect the liver, etc... you're creating an ideal environment for muscle growth at the expense of "normal" physiology. You also might want to take into account that some people are never really off cycle and their bodies don't get a break.
I'm not making any judgements on people at all. I'd much rather look at pics of Dina's beautiful booty or talk crap about "Bluto's" lust for man-meat than simple physiology. Those things fun and a break from my normal life. I'm mainly here for workout help and breaking balls.
In the same vein, it's irresponsible to pretend that steroid use has no risks just so people don't feel bad. It's sort of like cigarrette smoking.
Bro, this isn't the time nor place but, you said steroids are used to supress the immune system. That is incorrect and you said nothing of the other drugs that you just mentioned in your previous post.
He supposedly had a heart condition. Now, if anyone here really knows anything about bodybuilding then they know what some guys do the night before a show. Not saying that Anthony did!!!! Do you think that steroids just happened to kill him the night before a show?? Come on man, let's be realistic. It's highly doubtful. The only time that bodybuilding dangers increase several fold is the days leading up to the contest.
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Disgusted, if he did lasix (only guessing your allusion), he probably died of an electrolyte imbalance (ala MOMO). Now, if his coronary disease were severe enough, there is a good chance that any dysrhythmia (irregular heart rate or rhythm) contributed to him having a MI. Just guessing as I was not present. Peace all.
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(http://sacrificialscreams.sinisterbeauty.com/images/emotions/pee.gif)
goatboy
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15'000 posts ;D
wrong...14557 posts
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Disgusted, Jake is a medical professional and I believe he was referring to corticosteroids; these do suppress the immune system. Anabolics are a different class of steroids, but the point Jake was making is that any foreign chemical in high doses can disrupt your normal everyday endocrine balance. For instance, why do some heavy juicers never come off; the reason is that they would not be able to produce any endogenous testosterone as they have suppressed that endocrine system. Also, they would have no "balls."
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Disgusted, once again read my original post. If Anthony abused anabolics, insulin, GH, etc; there is a very strong possibily that his risk for a cardiovascular event was markedly increased. It is not like the man just did his first cycle; he had probably been juicing (at the minimum) for twenty years. So yes, steroids did contribute strongly to his MI. Now, I agree that the ravages of pre-contest conditioning may have pushed him over the edge. However, his balance was already precarious (IMO). Regardless, it is a sad event.
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
The biggest asshole on the board posts this shit upon someones passing. Fucken asshole.
I think I'll save this jpg and hope I see a day ( very soon ) when I will have a chance to post it in a thread for Scott's boy.
The Beef
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
It cracks me up how these bodybuilders think they're better than everyone else because they look good in a thong. Those "fat asses" you look down upon are more concerned with important things like school, their families, and their jobs. They're the scientists, doctors, teachers, and political leaders who keep society running. You asshole bodybuilders wouldn't have any food to eat if some fat farmer in Nebraska didn't bust his ass under the hot sun. Show some respect for the rest of society, you fucking meathead.
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This might be his last photo
(http://www.davepalumbo.com/2006%20Photos/2006%20NPC%20MASTERS%20NATIONALS/PHOTO%20SHOOTS/ANTHONY%20D/images/DSC07677.jpg)
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It cracks me up how these bodybuilders think they're better than everyone else because they look good in a thong. Those "fat asses" you look down upon are more concerned with important things like school, their families, and their jobs. They're the scientists, doctors, teachers, and political leaders who keep society running. You asshole bodybuilders wouldn't have any food to eat if some fat farmer in Nebraska didn't bust his ass under the hot sun. Show some respect for the rest of society, you fucking meathead.
Fuck you!!! I'm not talking about farmers in Nebraska... WTF anyway... Have you even been to Nebraska because I have spent a few year there and have not seen many Nebraskan farmers looking like this: (http://www.msnbc.com/d/v/250x190/nn_teague_obese_030805.jpg)I felt like a fuckin ant in Nebraska... Those guys are huge and no not terribly overweight. Maybe a few more douchbags can come along and blow my statement completely out of proportion and out of context. In fact, this dickhead's comments HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID...
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It cracks me up how these bodybuilders think they're better than everyone else because they look good in a thong. Those "fat asses" you look down upon are more concerned with important things like school, their families, and their jobs. They're the scientists, doctors, teachers, and political leaders who keep society running. You asshole bodybuilders wouldn't have any food to eat if some fat farmer in Nebraska didn't bust his ass under the hot sun. Show some respect for the rest of society, you fucking meathead.
I mean really... How the fuck do you go from my post to this??? What... In.... The... Hell.... Really man ???
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
What does that mean ?
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What does that mean ?
It's a metaphor for the people who were making excuses for his death... I know, nobody was making excuses so I'm not getting the metaphor either... Usually someone would have mentioned they were having kidney problems due to Advil and BS would soon be called by many as in Tom Prince's case. But Goatboy says it's a metaphor for the excuses nobody was making... LOL... Whatever I guess...
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Bro, this isn't the time nor place but, you said steroids are used to supress the immune system. That is incorrect and you said nothing of the other drugs that you just mentioned in your previous post.
He supposedly had a heart condition. Now, if anyone here really knows anything about bodybuilding then they know what some guys do the night before a show. Not saying that Anthony did!!!! Do you think that steroids just happened to kill him the night before a show?? Come on man, let's be realistic. It's highly doubtful. The only time that bodybuilding dangers increase several fold is the days leading up to the contest.
His dying sucks, period.
Someone asked about cancer and steroids, I answered. That being said, it's neither normal or typical for guys to pass away at such an early age. I say inject to your heart's cotent but be honest with yourself about the risks. Fat people don't pretend McDonalds is healthy. :)
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
ASSHOLE......
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To me I will never understand the need for using steriods or other proven harmful toxins in order to be big.
I have seen several guys(myself included) who could get pretty damn big and vascular without them. I can also attest that when doing so naturally that the size lasts, vrs the drug. I myself have not lifted seriously in over a year and, I still have a lot of natural muscle mass @ #230.
My point is not to go on about myself yet try to explain that it is possible albiet genetics in my blood line are good.
I wonder if this guy tried the natural way and made any real gains before some asshole told him he neededthe gear to get and stay big.
I do not care for dreams of being a champion if one dies or suffers serious health conditions thereafter and has a sub-par or non-existant life afterwards. No dream is worth the cost of one's life.
So many times I have heard the argument that "hey this guy died doing what he loved"
What a crock of shit that is. If this guy was properly instructed and trained he could have had the same size and condition without the use of riods(up to point)
This man's untimely death is a sad result in the ignorance or one's passion for a sport over real life :-\
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His dying sucks, period.
Someone asked about cancer and steroids, I answered. That being said, it's neither normal or typical for guys to pass away at such an early age. I say inject to your heart's cotent but be honest with yourself about the risks. Fat people don't pretend McDonalds is healthy. :)
The Advil joke come from Tom Prince's kidney failure, apparently blaming a portion of it on the OTC medication.
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Look,
the guy knew the risks and made the decision to take whatever drugs he took to look the way he did. If he had a family history, for all we know, his father died of a heart attack at age 50 WITHOUT taking any "supplements."
As adults, we make our own decisions and weigh the risks associated with them (hopefully). I am almost 39 yr. old, have been lifting for over 20 years, weigh 270, and once in a while dabble in hormone replacement therapy (that's what you call it at my age ;D). Do I think it would help my life expectancy if I dropped 50lbs?? Of course, but both my Grandfathers lived into their 90's, and I am willing to roll the dice.
I feel bad for the guy's family, but there are worse ways to go than dropping dead from a massive heart attack. Cancer is what freaks me...
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When it happens again, there will be another thread with the same responses.
And when it happens again, there will be... You get the point.
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Why isn't this a sticky? Where are the active mods when we need them?
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I just talked to Steve Reeves, the one who was on the boards last week and is one of Anthony's best friends and it's true. Anthony died yesterday. RIP.
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R.I.P.
peace
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His dying sucks, period.
Someone asked about cancer and steroids, I answered. That being said, it's neither normal or typical for guys to pass away at such an early age. I say inject to your heart's cotent but be honest with yourself about the risks. Fat people don't pretend McDonalds is healthy. :)
Let's just leave it at that then bro. One thing though, I think it is pretty typical nowadays for a lot of young people to have heart attacks. Two of my friends 38 and 40 had them although they are fine now, never touched a roid. The crap that people eat today is just catching up to them sooner. It's all too typical for someone to eat out a couple of times a day.
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Look,
the guy knew the risks and made the decision to take whatever drugs he took to look the way he did. If he had a family history, for all we know, his father died of a heart attack at age 50 WITHOUT taking any "supplements."
As adults, we make our own decisions and weigh the risks associated with them (hopefully). I am almost 39 yr. old, have been lifting for over 20 years, weigh 270, and once in a while dabble in hormone replacement therapy (that's what you call it at my age ;D). Do I think it would help my life expectancy if I dropped 50lbs?? Of course, but both my Grandfathers lived into their 90's, and I am willing to roll the dice.
I feel bad for the guy's family, but there are worse ways to go than dropping dead from a massive heart attack. Cancer is what freaks me...
JESUS CHRIST YOU FUCKTARDBITCHES WHO REAMED ME FOR MAKING MY POST BUT THIS IS NOT WORTH ONE SINGLE MENTION. Oh there is such a huge difference in what this guy said and what I said ::)
learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing. More of a victory than a tragedy. It's sad to see anyone go that early but. the tragedy are those who go through life wishing they had. The tragedy are all those fat ass mcdonalds eating nightly beer drinking clowns that die from a heart attack in their 40's leaving 3 kids and a wife wondering wtf they're going to do now.
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The rhetoric here is starting to remind me of the gay muscle escort board I used to be on
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=36549.0
Lots of RIPs and “condolences to his family” but major denial about how his lifestyle choices contributed to his death. :'(
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To say that a person can achieve the SAME EXACT results naturally as he could with tons of steroids and GH is ignorant and just not true at all.
The look that you see in the magazines today is simply not possible without steroids, so to insinuate that steroid users should have just been more patient is ludicrous.
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To say that a person can achieve the SAME EXACT results naturally as he could with tons of steroids and GH is ignorant and just not true at all.
The look that you see in the magazines today is simply not possible without steroids, so to insinuate that steroid users should have just been more patient is ludicrous.
Then why don`t you point that out when you write articles in the magazines???
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Then why don`t you point that out when you write articles in the magazines???
Honesty doesn't sell supplements!
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Only one person so far was able to state the obvious regarding Anthony's death:
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40320
"..why push the bondaries with a heart condition?.. if i was told that i had a heart conditioni would not be depleting myself ect to enter a show.. too sad.. his family has my sympathy in this trying time.."
This is not the time or the place you say?
Actually this is exactly the time and the place.
Just how long would you have wanted to live if you were that guy? Serious question.
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Just how long would you have wanted to live if you were that guy? Serious question.
I would have off-ed myself about 12 years ago if I was him.
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I would have off-ed myself about 12 years ago if I was him.
Thank you. Let's just be happy for him that it didn't take 15. I mean, really.
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I would have off-ed myself about 12 years ago if I was him.
that dude had a crazy looking head and jawline, condolences to his family, it has to be tough to lose someone at that age, what do you guys think was up with the cranial features?
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Thank you. Let's just be happy for him that it didn't take 15. I mean, really.
hows the revolution going?
or is it harder without the help of crystal meth? ;D
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
how would you have felt if somebody posted this in a Billy Carp thread?
you have no class
E
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hows the revolution going?
or is it harder without the help of crystal meth? ;D
seems to be harder for you since your out of material it seems
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seems to be harder for you since your out of material it seems
coming from a fat guy called eric ::)
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I am probably one of the only writers that points out all the time that you don't get to look like a Mr. Olympia competitor without ALL three of these factors:
1) Very rare, gifted genetics for structure, size, and shape
2) Years of hard training and eating 6-7 meals a day
3) Drugs.
Too many people misunderstand and think that they can do it with one or two of the factors.
And when someone says they are 230 pounds and natural, I would ask them to post a pic of what they look like versus a 230-pound IFBB Pro like Dexter Jackson (he's probably closer to 220 in shape, I couldn't think of anyone that's 230 off the top of my head). I guarantee you the natural guy looks NOTHING like the pro.
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coming from a fat guy called eric ::)
lol, not fat and is that supposed to spook me? since when is having the name Eric some type of problem?
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Steroids work and they work well, which is why they are so widespread in bodybuilding and so many other sports.
The trouble is, it is becoming increasingly apparent that long-term use seems to be a risk factor for several major and potentially fatal medical conditions.
Everybody thinks they will do 'just one cycle' or 'just a few,' but 90% of the people I have known that went in with those intentions wound up cycling on and off for anywhere from five to twenty years.
And without a wife and kids to give you a compelling reason to stay healthy and live to a ripe old age, it's easy to ignore the risks and just keep juicing for years and years.
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http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40320&page=3
"Now here is a very respectful thread, expressing sorry for the loss of an iron Brother.
Over on another board there is an asshole with the screen name Mindspin, who saw his way clear of turning it into a joke. The guy is a fool." - BgBoo
Discuss.
lol i saw that
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you people really go and look in musclemayam board? i been there 2 times in the past and found it to be a complete misrepresentation of bodybuilding and even worse misrepresentation of "say it as it is skills"
horrible board
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you people really go and look in musclemayam board? i been there 2 times in the past and found it to be a complete misrepresentation of bodybuilding and even worse misrepresentation of "say it as it is skills"
horrible board
Agree wholeheartedly 110%!
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To say that a person can achieve the SAME EXACT results naturally as he could with tons of steroids and GH is ignorant and just not true at all.
The look that you see in the magazines today is simply not possible without steroids, so to insinuate that steroid users should have just been more patient is ludicrous.
yea um i am sorry the guy is dead but you could easily achieve that buuild in the above photo naturally by his age
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i'm not defending mindspin's advil pic
but
for ppl on mayhem to bitch about what goes on here is just pitiful. It's like they secretly want to indulge here, but they know their friends would reject them for it.
Do any of you go into church and interrupt the priest to talk about how evil things are at the satanic cult meeting, then give directions to the cult meeting? come on, mayhemers. you like it here. Admit it already :)
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since when is having the name Eric some type of problem?
the South Park episode wherein Cartman gets caught up in the NAMBLA gig
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PLEASE, show me a guy that's built 250 pounds ripped at 5-9 naturally, and it doesn't matter how old he is.
The body has a certain natural genetic limit that can only be exceeded with drugs.
If what you say is true, anyone could get as big as Ronnie if they just trained long enough.
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PLEASE, show me a guy that's built 250 pounds ripped at 5-9 naturally, and it doesn't matter how old he is.
The body has a certain natural genetic limit that can only be exceeded with drugs.
If what you say is true, anyone could get as big as Ronnie if they just trained long enough.
Bullshit! There is no natural limit!
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PLEASE, show me a guy that's built 250 pounds ripped at 5-9 naturally, and it doesn't matter how old he is.
The body has a certain natural genetic limit that can only be exceeded with drugs.
If what you say is true, anyone could get as big as Ronnie if they just trained long enough.
IMO, there are genetic freaks. You put Skip la Cour's brain in a natural Coleman's body, and 250 ripped is reasonable. Of course, that would be a superhuman and fairly rare.
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If there is no natural limit, why are natural pro's in the WNBF anywhere from 150-220 pounds in shape, while in the IFBB you have guys that are up to 300 pounds?
Trust me, some of those guys in the WNBF are in their 40's and have been training for about 30 years. Shouldn't they be as big as the guys on drugs in the IFBB?
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If there is no natural limit, why are natural pro's in the WNBF anywhere from 150-220 pounds in shape, while in the IFBB you have guys that are up to 300 pounds?
Trust me, some of those guys in the WNBF are in their 40's and have been training for about 30 years. Shouldn't they be as big as the guys on drugs in the IFBB?
They are lazy and don't like progression. Girlie man stay small.
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IMO, there are genetic freaks. You put Skip la Cour's brain in a natural Coleman's body, and 250 ripped is reasonable. Of course, that would be a superhuman and fairly rare.
Thats stupid! Ronnie Coleman is mr. Olympia! He is mentally and physically stronger than Skip. Ronnie could get to at least 300 naturally.
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Ronnie turned pro in late 1990 at 215 pounds, drug free.
I don't think he started using anything until about two or three years later, at which point he had gotten up to about 230-235. That was probably close to his natural limit, as he had already been training over 15 years by then.
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rip
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Though I have no way of knowing for sure, I don't believe that Ronnie either takes more or better drugs than the rest of the guys. Brian Dobson did tell me in an interview, and we printed this, that few would believe just how little Ronnie takes.
The whole 'hyper-responder' to geat phenomenon is very real. Even assuming two guys have been training the same amount of time, and both train equally hard and eat the same, one guy can take 400 mg of test and 400 mg of deca a week and put on 25 pounds in 8 weeks, while another can take a full gram of test, deca, plus d-bol, a-drol, and GH, and only put on 8-10 pounds.
When Lee Priest talks about how little he uses, I believe him. I have known tons of guys that used a LOT of drugs for a very long time and didn't ever look remotely like a pro. You have to have the genetics to look like that, AND the genetics to respond very well to steroids.
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I remember reading Ronnie's old natural column in Flex magazine back in the early 90's. He was doing stack plus on lat pull-downs. The man was a monster size wise and strength wise even as a natural.
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The sheer fact that mayhem took it seriously should be receipt enough that it was a joke and nothing else.
If someone posted it on billy carps thread he wouldn't reacted, if its irrelevent then its just a wayward comment - nothing more. ::)
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ASSHOLE......
I agree Vinny.
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Though I have no way of knowing for sure, I don't believe that Ronnie either takes more or better drugs than the rest of the guys. Brian Dobson did tell me in an interview, and we printed this, that few would believe just how little Ronnie takes.
The whole 'hyper-responder' to geat phenomenon is very real. Even assuming two guys have been training the same amount of time, and both train equally hard and eat the same, one guy can take 400 mg of test and 400 mg of deca a week and put on 25 pounds in 8 weeks, while another can take a full gram of test, deca, plus d-bol, a-drol, and GH, and only put on 8-10 pounds.
When Lee Priest talks about how little he uses, I believe him. I have known tons of guys that used a LOT of drugs for a very long time and didn't ever look remotely like a pro. You have to have the genetics to look like that, AND the genetics to respond very well to steroids.
Exactly, the "Hyperresponder Theory" does exist. It falls under genetics.
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Ronnie turned pro in late 1990 at 215 pounds, drug free.
That's the claim, anyway. ::)
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ron used gear on the way to get his pro card,,lots of it! i suggest for your fun time go and get pictures of ron from the ages 18-20 and you will see the diff in muscularity development and muscle mass between his amatuer high school powerlifting/football years and the time he qualified for national show. it CAN NOT be achieved naturally period,,too densed,,too thick,,too hard,,and too big as in lean muscle mass for being natural in his qualifier.
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Mindspin, you fucking rat bastard piece of shit. Why the fuck did you post that picture of Advil??? A bodybuilder passed away and you wish to make light of that shit????
Someone should strip you of your mod powers. Hope Ron sees this shit
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i'm not defending mindspin's advil pic
but
for ppl on mayhem to bitch about what goes on here is just pitiful. It's like they secretly want to indulge here, but they know their friends would reject them for it.
Do any of you go into church and interrupt the priest to talk about how evil things are at the satanic cult meeting, then give directions to the cult meeting? come on, mayhemers. you like it here. Admit it already :)
I took care of it.
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Major Risk factors for heart attack: Age, sex (males at higher risk), family history (probably most important), hypertension, diabetes, smoking and dyslipidemia. Let us assume Anthony did nothing else but steroids; forget the GH, insulin, diuretics, etc. First of all, if he had any heart disease and continued steroids he was being foolish. The reason is the steroids are pro-atherogenic and screw people's cholesterol panel up nicely. He would have an increase in triglycerides and LDL (bad cholesterol). His good cholesterol would go down (HDL). This is undeniable fact. Look up anabolic steroids and their side effects. Moreover, assuming that he was taking non-pharmaceutical grade anabolics (probably vet grade from overseas) that were not prescribed by his family physician, there is a strong possibility that whatever the steroids injection medium may have some pro-inflammatory properties. For you googlers, look up C reactive protein and cardiovascular risk. It is has been proposed that a pro-inflammatory state by itself is a risk for cardiovascular events.
Now, if Anthony used insulin, GH and diuretics there is a very strong possibility that this combination could have put him over the edge. I would surmise he had dyslipidemia, high blood pressure and possibly diabetes (if he abused GH). Together, with his sex and age (near fifty), he was probably a walking time bomb. What is scary is that he is not an isolated incident. I would surmise that less than 10 percent of national level bodybuilders who routinely abuse this stuff get followed by a physician. I can gurantee one thing, a lot of these "Supermen" look like a 75 year old man inside. BB is a scary endeavor if you test the bounds, and don't do it simply for health.
BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat. It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.
2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.
As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit. BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin.. Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.
Blood pressure is usually controlled very well because of the nitric oxide that is a by product of muscle contraction, and because of the LARGE diameter of the vessels. But some do have high-blood pressure, not many. STIMULANTS cause high blood pressure. BB take LOTS of stimulants.
HIGH blood pressure is almost ALWAYS caused by one of 3 reasons
1) smoking
2) stimulants
3) lack of resistance training.
In closing, BB are not DIABETIC. But they DO experience clogging of the arteries form the AAS, and being in an insulin dominant state. Almost ALL type 2 adult onset-diabetes milletus is caused by LACK OF RESISTANCE TRAINING.. Name me 1 BB that is actually type 2 diabetic ??? EVERY type 2 diabetic I have ever spoke to (Well over 2 thousand at General Nutrition Centers) DO NOT perform resistance training. They dont exercise at all (unless you call walking exercise ?) And you can take that to the bank !! NONE OF them exercise at all !!
There really are none. Don Youngblood ? Maybe. If these guys were becoming diabetic as fast as we all say they are, a good % of them would tell us to prevent it from happening to others.
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I am in complete shock. I worked out at Gold's-Pawtucket/Providence for many years, where Anthony trained and was a trainer. I hired him to train my old man back into shape last year. I saw him just last week and complimented him on how good he looked. Amazing transition from 6 months ago when he was about 290lbs. He was a big stong dude. Holds several bench press records here in RI and in New England. Also a stand up guy, would always take a minute an answer a workout or nutrition question if you asked him. I am in complete shock. My condolences to his family and friends in Cranston/Johnston and his Gold's Gym family.
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To say that a person can achieve the SAME EXACT results naturally as he could with tons of steroids and GH is ignorant and just not true at all.
The look that you see in the magazines today is simply not possible without steroids, so to insinuate that steroid users should have just been more patient is ludicrous.
Are you saying that it It wasn't the cell tech? Say it ain't so...
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The consensus in this thread from the anti-roid crowd was pretty fucked up... They basically said, hey RIP Moron ::) Then having a panic attack if someone mentioned celebrating his life instead of blaming him for his death in the thread started for him... Real class acts... ::) Nobody was making any excuses for why he died before the goddamned Advil bottle was posted... The first start of anything was for you losers to jump in and blame him and piss on posts that dared celebrate his life... You people suck... Almost Naziesque :D with you fuckers.... :-*
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In closing, BB are not DIABETIC. But they DO experience clogging of the arteries form the AAS, and being in an insulin dominant state. Almost ALL type 2 adult onset-diabetes milletus is caused by LACK OF RESISTANCE TRAINING.. Name me 1 BB that is actually type 2 diabetic ??? EVERY type 2 diabetic I have ever spoke to (Well over 2 thousand at General Nutrition Centers) DO NOT perform resistance training.
Yep, when I want sound medical advice, I generally seek out someone who works at GNC. ::) ::)
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The consensus in this thread from the anti-roid crowd was pretty fucked up... They basically said, hey RIP Moron ::) Then having a panic attack if someone mentioned celebrating his life instead of blaming him for his death in the thread started for him... Real class acts... ::) Nobody was making any excuses for why he died before the goddamned Advil bottle was posted... The first start of anything was for you losers to jump in and blame him and piss on posts that dared celebrate his life... You people suck... Almost Naziesque :D with you fuckers.... :-*
Guess what? Nobody here gives a good fucck whether you like them or not.
Hope this helps!
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
good one man that hilarious
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Guess what? Nobody here gives a good fucck whether you like them or not.
Hope this helps!
Guess what, I don't give a f**k that they don't give a f**k... I'm not trying to be popular here goatfucker. Every last one of you buttheads can eat shit... I don't give a rats ass one way or the other... Oh.. but goatboy, didn't you know all I wanted was to be liked.... :'( Jesus... please.... Hope that helps you bitch.
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Ronnie turned pro in late 1990 at 215 pounds, drug free.
I don't think he started using anything until about two or three years later, at which point he had gotten up to about 230-235. That was probably close to his natural limit, as he had already been training over 15 years by then.
I heard he experimented, didnt do much, but wasnt totally natural..nonetheless, he is a genetic mutant.
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The consensus in this thread from the anti-roid crowd was pretty fucked up... They basically said, hey RIP Moron ::) Then having a panic attack if someone mentioned celebrating his life instead of blaming him for his death in the thread started for him... Real class acts... ::) Nobody was making any excuses for why he died before the goddamned Advil bottle was posted... The first start of anything was for you losers to jump in and blame him and piss on posts that dared celebrate his life... You people suck... Almost Naziesque :D with you fuckers.... :-*
I'm sorry, jr, but bodybuilding should be about a healthy physique, not about testing your ability to take unprescribed drugs and live to tell about it.
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Bodybuilding hasn't been about building a healthy physique since around 1970 or so.
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I am probably one of the only writers that points out all the time that you don't get to look like a Mr. Olympia competitor without ALL three of these factors:
1) Very rare, gifted genetics for structure, size, and shape
2) Years of hard training and eating 6-7 meals a day
3) Drugs.
Too many people misunderstand and think that they can do it with one or two of the factors.
And when someone says they are 230 pounds and natural, I would ask them to post a pic of what they look like versus a 230-pound IFBB Pro like Dexter Jackson (he's probably closer to 220 in shape, I couldn't think of anyone that's 230 off the top of my head). I guarantee you the natural guy looks NOTHING like the pro.
Wow!! your an expert? man your cool................. ::) I did not say I looked like a ripped bodybuilder, I do have a great build for a natural, maybe better than most pro's if they where off the juice. You can take your "post a pic" argument to the trash ............it's a dumb comeback.
The point I was making which was totally missed by the above "expert" ::) Is that no life is worth taking drugs to achieve a level of competition. He was not that better off next to a really well built natural, fact. So he died for a few extra pounds and cuts, what a total waste.............That was my point. Do you not agree?
At what point does this bullshit sport come to a realistic aproach?
Short of Arnold, even the best of the best will not be known by the masses of the world. No pro short of Arnold has acheived shit since they won the Olympia that was worth the health risks involved. Even Arnold had his heart issues due to roids. No matter how much bullshit Arnold and the bodybuilding press want to sling about it being a genetic heart valve issue, who here really believes that shit.
You guys that want to push guys into drug use stating that there is no way to acheive a champion build other wize are assholes, plain and simple.
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Bodybuilding hasn't been about building a healthy physique since around 1970 or so.
well for professional bodybuilding, okay. but for the thousands and thousands of people who consistently train hard and who consistently eat nutritiously (and who have no interest in the chemical aspect of the lifestyle)
. . . well for them, bodybuilding could be about building a healthy physique.
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I'm sorry, jr, but bodybuilding should be about a healthy physique, not about testing your ability to take unprescribed drugs and live to tell about it.
Where did I say that Fagboy? :-* Since none of you stupid fuckers can read for shit, I was pointing out in a world of people killing themselves off via any number of other unhealthily activities at least it could be said that he lived life doing what he wanted unlike some who die young, a fat pig of a chain smoking alcoholic.... That is what I was thinking when I typed what I said. Nowhere did I imply bodybuilding should be about testing your ability to take unprescribed ??? drugs and live to tell about it... He made his choices, he knew what the risks were... I'm just not one for showing up the day his death is announced and take the opportunity to call the guy stupid for his life choices. Especially when there are so many others fucking themselves 100 times worse with their lifestyle choices.... That is what was behind the thinking of my post and I make no apology for saying it boy...
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Where did I say that Fagboy? :-* Since none of you stupid fuckers can read for shit, I was pointing out in a world of people killing themselves off via any number of other unhealthily activities at least it could be said that he lived life doing what he wanted unlike some who die young, a fat pig of a chain smoking alcoholic.... That is what I was thinking when I typed what I said. Nowhere did I imply bodybuilding should be about testing your ability to take unprescribed ??? drugs and live to tell about it... He made his choices, he knew what the risks were... I'm just not one for showing up the day his death is announced and take the opportunity to call the guy stupid for his life choices. Especially when there are so many others fucking themselves 100 times worse with their lifestyle choices.... That is what was behind the thinking of my post and I make no apology for saying it boy...
That's why I don't gamble. The odds are in favor of the house.
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I'm just not one for showing up the day his death is announced and take the opportunity to call the guy stupid for his life choices.
As Josie once said "dying ain't much of a living"
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As Josie once said "dying ain't much of a living"
Well I agree and don't have a goddamned idea of what you just tried to say in the first post... To f'n tired after leg day... You win, that shit went right over my head :-\ OK I get it... Lots of people gamble and win and yes many always lose... And some play it safe all their life and some of those get picked off at an intersection having never gambled... I'm not claiming to know the right answers... Again, I'm just not for talking shit about someone who just died.
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Bodybuilding hasn't been about building a healthy physique since around 1970 or so.
bodybuilding and competitive bbbing are two different things.
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I am probably one of the only writers that points out all the time that you don't get to look like a Mr. Olympia competitor without ALL three of these factors:
1) Very rare, gifted genetics for structure, size, and shape
2) Years of hard training and eating 6-7 meals a day
3) Drugs.
Too many people misunderstand and think that they can do it with one or two of the factors.
And when someone says they are 230 pounds and natural, I would ask them to post a pic of what they look like versus a 230-pound IFBB Pro like Dexter Jackson (he's probably closer to 220 in shape, I couldn't think of anyone that's 230 off the top of my head). I guarantee you the natural guy looks NOTHING like the pro.
HAHAHAHAH According to fat, lying, Beef Rinser, Internet Hoaxer, Cult Leader, Rack Chin Queer Dante` 230 lb natural is obtainable, even 250.
hahahhahaa I hate that dude with a passion for spreading lies,making people think they can achieve an impossibility. I have asked him time and time again to find me ONE GODDAMNED PERSON that meets that criteria. 6 ft and under 220 lbs completely ripped. He can`t. Nobody can.
The sad thing is he believes its possible. And I hate the fact that you guys have given this lying clown even a sentence of press time. Pathetic.
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BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat. It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.
2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.
As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit. BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin.. Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.
Blood pressure is usually controlled very well because of the nitric oxide that is a by product of muscle contraction, and because of the LARGE diameter of the vessels. But some do have high-blood pressure, not many. STIMULANTS cause high blood pressure. BB take LOTS of stimulants.
HIGH blood pressure is almost ALWAYS caused by one of 3 reasons
1) smoking
2) stimulants
3) lack of resistance training.
In closing, BB are not DIABETIC. But they DO experience clogging of the arteries form the AAS, and being in an insulin dominant state. Almost ALL type 2 adult onset-diabetes milletus is caused by LACK OF RESISTANCE TRAINING.. Name me 1 BB that is actually type 2 diabetic ??? EVERY type 2 diabetic I have ever spoke to (Well over 2 thousand at General Nutrition Centers) DO NOT perform resistance training. They dont exercise at all (unless you call walking exercise ?) And you can take that to the bank !! They are FAT LAZY bastards that think their diabetes is genetic...NONE OF them exercise at all !!
There really are none. Don Youngblood ? Maybe. If these guys were becoming diabetic as fast as we all say they are, a good % of them would tell us to prevent it from happening to others.
Wouldn't clogging of the arteries with cholesterol cause high blood pressure? If it doesn't then how would you know you're at risk for a heart attack until it's too late?
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If someone posted it on billy carps thread he wouldn't reacted, if its irrelevent then its just a wayward comment - nothing more. ::)
how do you know how he would react you have no idea how close they are?
Mindspin is a big boy that can speak for himself ::)
E
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BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat. It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.
2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.
As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit. BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin.. Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.
Blood pressure is usually controlled very well because of the nitric oxide that is a by product of muscle contraction, and because of the LARGE diameter of the vessels. But some do have high-blood pressure, not many. STIMULANTS cause high blood pressure. BB take LOTS of stimulants.
HIGH blood pressure is almost ALWAYS caused by one of 3 reasons
1) smoking
2) stimulants
3) lack of resistance training.
In closing, BB are not DIABETIC. But they DO experience clogging of the arteries form the AAS, and being in an insulin dominant state. Almost ALL type 2 adult onset-diabetes milletus is caused by LACK OF RESISTANCE TRAINING.. Name me 1 BB that is actually type 2 diabetic ??? EVERY type 2 diabetic I have ever spoke to (Well over 2 thousand at General Nutrition Centers) DO NOT perform resistance training. They dont exercise at all (unless you call walking exercise ?) And you can take that to the bank !! They are FAT LAZY bastards that think their diabetes is genetic...NONE OF them exercise at all !!
There really are none. Don Youngblood ? Maybe. If these guys were becoming diabetic as fast as we all say they are, a good % of them would tell us to prevent it from happening to others.
Blood pressure is very often raised by high sodium levels. These guys eat 4-6000+ calories a day when juicing - they get lots of sodium on average (Jay Cutler eats Sushi every day for example). This is a very good reason they would have high blood pressure (along with little to no cardio while "bulking")
So injecting themselves with Slin constantly doesn't cause them to become diabetic? Wrong. Their bodies no longer produce what is needed naturally. This ain't GNC customers (who get ripped off) looking for the magic pill to get skinny. These are guys shooting themselves to increase muslce growth. If you think that they all don't/won't have blood sugar issues, you are wildly mistaken.
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HAHAHAHAH According to fat, lying, Beef Rinser, Internet Hoaxer, Cult Leader, Rack Chin Queer Dante` 230 lb natural is obtainable, even 250.
hahahhahaa I hate that dude with a passion for spreading lies,making people think they can achieve an impossibility. I have asked him time and time again to find me ONE GODDAMNED PERSON that meets that criteria. 6 ft and under 220 lbs completely ripped. He can`t. Nobody can.
The sad thing is he believes its possible. And I hate the fact that you guys have given this lying clown even a sentence of press time. Pathetic.
I knew one guy back home that was 6'1" and 215, totally shredded. He looked good, balanced, totally striated wheels, and he was really natural. I don't know what he'd look like now to me if I were to see him in that shape, but I'm just sayin', Adonis. Is that what you were talking about? He still wasn't 6'0 and 220, though.
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I knew one guy back home that was 6'1" and 215, totally shredded. He looked good, balanced, totally striated wheels, and he was really natural. I don't know what he'd look like now to me if I were to see him in that shape, but I'm just sayin', Adonis. Is that what you were talking about? He still wasn't 6'0 and 220, though.
And his ass was about 37 years old, and had been doing the shit every day without a break for what I'm sure was way more than half of them.
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And his ass was about 37 years old, and had been doing the shit every day without a break for what I'm sure was way more than half of them.
Exactly. It is safe to say that he had probably reached the pinnacle of naturality. At 37 he really can`t do much more. If he wanted to add any more muscle he would have to start considering other options. And that option damn sure isn`t DC eating and training.
Now Dante` wants every natural out there to believe that it is possible to be 220,230,250 lbs Ripped and natural. In his own delusional mind, he has convinced himself of this. He has even brainwashed his trainees into thinking that it may be a possibility and that there are in fact people out there already meeting and exceeding this standard.
When pressed for evidence of ONE human specimen walking around,JUST ONE, Dante` cannot produce. He hides from this question and for good reason. It is an impossibility.
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Anthony Died for us Bitches!
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Blood pressure is very often raised by high sodium levels. These guys eat 4-6000+ calories a day when juicing - they get lots of sodium on average (Jay Cutler eats Sushi every day for example). This is a very good reason they would have high blood pressure (along with little to no cardio while "bulking")
So injecting themselves with Slin constantly doesn't cause them to become diabetic? Wrong. Their bodies no longer produce what is needed naturally. This ain't GNC customers (who get ripped off) looking for the magic pill to get skinny. These are guys shooting themselves to increase muslce growth. If you think that they all don't/won't have blood sugar issues, you are wildly mistaken.
A BB Using 6-15 IU's of Humulin R insulin post workout would NEVER shut down the pancreas from having to produce insulin. Many diabetics routinely use 40 IU's of slow-acting Insulin twice a day...EVERY DAY !!
And their bodies CONTINUE to produce insulin, and, these diabetics I'm referring are in their 50's and older.
The ONLY people whose bodies don't produce unsulin are TYPE 1-Juvinile onset diabetics. These are people that have had their pancreatic beta-cells destroyed at an early age, usually by their bodies own immune system. Swimmer Gary Hall & golfer Scott Verplank are 2 examples. They are referred to as "insulin dependent". The overwhelming majority of diabetics are TYPE-2 ADULT ONSET. And type 2 diabetics continue to produce insulin. If you are under the impression that a type-2 diabetic cannot synhthesize any of their own insulin, you are un-informed. The diabetic has a problem called "INSULIN RESISTANCE". A "Normal" secretion of his body's own insulin will not transport nutrients into the cell-because lack of resistance training has made his muscle cells "RESISTANT"
THen NAME ME ONE IFBB PRO that is truly a diabetic ???
UNtil you can, you are talking out your ass !!
As far as blood pressure & high sodium levels, obviously you are not aware that the human body produces a hormone called "Aldosterone" to work in tandem with sodium intake. Eating salt generally will not increase BP unless the person ALREADY HAS HBP from either
1) smoking
2) too many stimulants (constrict blood vessels)
3) Overweight & lack of exercise
But you would never know these things because you have no real-life experience in any of the chronic diseases. You heve NEVER actually TALKED to anybody who is diabetic, nor do you study the chronic dieases like I do. You are merely a PUNK-ASS-
I had an epiphany while typing this. For me to waste my time arguing with guys like you & GOATBOY is a waste of time. YOu guys don't know a thing, and you are spoon-chested cyber-weaklings that run your mouths behind a computer. POST A PICTURE !!
NAME ME 1 IFBB PRO THAT IS DIABETEIC !!!
THEN as much as I hate to use the term...STFU about Diabetics.
You are a fool to think that all these IFBB pro's are diabetic-and for some reason they will go to the ends of the earth to keep that a secret from their fellow lifters ??
You know nothing !!
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;D
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BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat. It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.
2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.
As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit. BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin.. Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.
Blood pressure is usually controlled very well because of the nitric oxide that is a by product of muscle contraction, and because of the LARGE diameter of the vessels. But some do have high-blood pressure, not many. STIMULANTS cause high blood pressure. BB take LOTS of stimulants.
HIGH blood pressure is almost ALWAYS caused by one of 3 reasons
1) smoking
2) stimulants
3) lack of resistance training.
In closing, BB are not DIABETIC. But they DO experience clogging of the arteries form the AAS, and being in an insulin dominant state. Almost ALL type 2 adult onset-diabetes milletus is caused by LACK OF RESISTANCE TRAINING.. Name me 1 BB that is actually type 2 diabetic ??? EVERY type 2 diabetic I have ever spoke to (Well over 2 thousand at General Nutrition Centers) DO NOT perform resistance training. They dont exercise at all (unless you call walking exercise ?) And you can take that to the bank !! They are FAT LAZY bastards that think their diabetes is genetic...NONE OF them exercise at all !!
There really are none. Don Youngblood ? Maybe. If these guys were becoming diabetic as fast as we all say they are, a good % of them would tell us to prevent it from happening to others.
Johnny, I in no way stated that bodybuilding is diabetic. What I stated is that if you use large amounts of GH, you are putting yourself at risk to be a diabetic. Simple physiology, the body has four ways to counter the effects of insulin: GH, glucagon, cortisol and epinephrine. GH abuse in non-diabetics is very well documented to cause diabetes. Obviously, anybody with a modicum of medical knowledge, realizes that type 2 diabetes is a state where you have increased insulin resistance (usually too much fat and not enough protein). However, if you continue to abuse counter hormones like GH consistently, then that would lead to diabetes. Are you a physician? Did you read my thread?
http://www.ijem.org/2/14.pdf
Look at page seven. This speaks of the doses that kids use to grow; far less than drug abusing bodybuilders. Thus, if those risk factors don't scare you, multiply them about ten-fold for a pro bodybuilder who is using massive quantities oftentimes unmonitored. Think before you talk. BTW, any of you really believe that the reason there are not known diabetics in bodybuilders could be because they have not seen a doctor for years. Do you think Tom had an inkling his kidney function was so bad before the end?
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The question to ask is did Dave help him in his pre-contest/ i ask this because last week at the team Universe, the favored heavyweight female athlete collapsed on stage ("froze" - most likely due to bad diuretic decisions) and she is trained by Dave...
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Here is another article for you stud...you have to click the link.
http://sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html
As is so evident by your reply earlier, you don't feel that hypertension is a big issue for bodbuilders. Have you ever taken the blood pressure of a 300 pound, steroid using individual who came to the ER 2nd to a nose bleed (otherwise known as epistaxis). First off, risks for hypertension include excess sodium diet (in a person predisposed to hypertension), stimulants, weight gain and steroids (at least diastolic blood pressure). Your argument about aldosterone is stupid. Aldosterone is produced in the cascade by the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Aldosterone secretion is suppressed when you have a high salt diet. It is also suppressed by high blood pressure. In usual individuals who are not hypertensive, you get a soidum natriuresis in your kidneys that gets rid of the excess salt. However, individuals who are alread hypertensive can have a pardoxical response and not get rid of the excess sodium intake. No, most people who are hypertensive are so because of something called "essential" hypertension. That means it is idiopathic. I have patients with no risk factors (150 pound swimmers who don't smoke) with hypertension.
For the most part you are correct, if you lift and exercise, your cardiovascular risk is low. However, to defend pro bodybuilders who shoot steroids, use GH/insulin cocktails, take huge amounts of ephedrine/clenbuterol, eat like crazy in the off season and then abuse diuretics when the show approaches is foolish. Trust me, if the IFBB mandated a yearly physical and bloodwork, the 330 fat Ronnie and Jay would not be the epitome of health.
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;D
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something else to think about - guys have health problems that we'll never hear about. once you're labeled as a health risk, the ifbb doesn't have love anymore (see: don long). these guys have to make a living. They know and they aren't going to come on getbig and announce they have X or Y.
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Tom Prince was the one who gave Branch Warren the diuretics at the 2001 Nationals which almost killed him
Branch Warren almost died for you bitches! >:(
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Here is another article for you stud...you have to click the link.
http://sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html
As is so evident by your reply earlier, you don't feel that hypertension is a big issue for bodbuilders. Have you ever taken the blood pressure of a 300 pound, steroid using individual who came to the ER 2nd to a nose bleed (otherwise known as epistaxis). First off, risks for hypertension include excess sodium diet (in a person predisposed to hypertension), stimulants, weight gain and steroids (at least diastolic blood pressure). Your argument about aldosterone is stupid. Aldosterone is produced in the cascade by the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Aldosterone secretion is suppressed when you have a high salt diet. It is also suppressed by high blood pressure. In usual individuals who are not hypertensive, you get a soidum natriuresis in your kidneys that gets rid of the excess salt. However, individuals who are alread hypertensive can have a pardoxical response and not get rid of the excess sodium intake. No, most people who are hypertensive are so because of something called "essential" hypertension. That means it is idiopathic. I have patients with no risk factors (150 pound swimmers who don't smoke) with hypertension.
For the most part you are correct, if you lift and exercise, your cardiovascular risk is low. However, to defend pro bodybuilders who shoot steroids, use GH/insulin cocktails, take huge amounts of ephedrine/clenbuterol, eat like crazy in the off season and then abuse diuretics when the show approaches is foolish. Trust me, if the IFBB mandated a yearly physical and bloodwork, the 330 fat Ronnie and Jay would not be the epitome of health.
STUD ? I like that.. Where do I begin ? First off-It is nice to speak to somebody with actual knowledge...which you obviously have.. I didn't read your post clearly. I was primarily poking holes in the argument that relatively small amounts of insulin cause type-2 in BB's.. I didnt understand that you were relating it to GH. (MY BAD) I read the article that you provided a link to. On page 7 it states that the chances for glucose intolerance are very small. Obviosly the larger amounts of GH a BB does becomes more dangerous. HOWEVER-The tremendous insulin sensitivity that athletes enjoy outweighs the negative effects of GH. A BB may use 2-4 IU/day, while an AIDS patient uses much more than that. BTW-How much GH does an adolescent use ?
I do believe that a significant % of BB would share the fact that they became diabetic from insulin use if that were the case. I myself have suffered prostate enlargement from using Test. I tell as many people as I can to protect them from the same fate. I would never keep that a secret. Am I the ONLY person with a consciense ? I doubt it. The BEST we have is "ANECDOTAL" evidence ? With absolutely zero names.. We could ask the surgeon general himself if he has the name of 1 single person that has ever had Diabetes or liver cancer from AAS, and he would answer NO. Oh, wait a minute, he would answer-Lyle Alzaydo !! (AIDS).. He would go back 16 years and spit out the name of a person that died of AIDS.
No-I am not a physician. But the average doctor cannot understand the chronic illnesses. Everybody that comes into GNC states to me solemnly that their Diabetes/ High Cholesterol/HBP are all Genetic !! Where do you think they heard that from ? Their Doctor. As a result-they GIVE UP, and accept it as their fate. I always ask them if they received any nutritional advice or exercise advice from their MD's. Their answer is almost always "NO". The doctor just puts em on the statins, the glucophage, etc. WE have 50 million men in the US with high cholesterol, and the majority think it's GENETIC. If we cut back the processed carbs, and exercised, and added LOTS of supplemental fiber, their lipid readins would fall. But thanks to the commercials on TV that talk about "Fettucine Alfredo & Your Uncle Fredo", all these people belive it is GENETIC. I have news for the AMA,..The human body DID NOT evolve that poorly !!
It is a self-serving stance that a doctor takes by using the "Genetic black box" to explain everything. Lastly, the doctors instill a MYTH that walking 20 minutes a day is adequate exercise ??
That is criminal.
AS far as HBP- I forget to mention STRESS. How come the vast majority of people that come to GNC with high blood pressure are overweight, smoke, dont exercise (walk), drink too much coffee ? Are you telling me that the majority of HBP patients you see have no risk factors ? THat is very difficult to believe. I have almost never seen that at my job, and I talk to alot of people. There definetely ARE BB's with HBP, you are correct, what percentage ? Difficult to say. But many of them-like myself- have escaped because of the dilation of blood vessels.
Doctors have failed horribly at the Chronic illnesses. They can transplant hearts & separate siamese twins !!
But they cant HAMMER HOME to a person to lift weights, eat fiber, cut out processed carbs.
Information (crap) published by the AMA suggests that being Black / Hispanic is a risk factor for diabetes.
But they never say why... Leaving the readed to "give UP" on helping themselves. Leaving the Black to think like it is cickle cell anemia. That is BEYOND criminal.. It is a function of a diet high in carbs because they are cheap. And a function of people on lower economic levels having less time to exercise properly.
In closing, I do appreciate your info-it is very good. You have the platform and the letters after your name...I Don't !
So it is an inherent obligation for you to HAMMER INTO THEIR HEADS what they can do to help themselves.
If you guys would STRESS the cures, It would make my job alot easier. They are better hearing it from you.
But It takes time to EXPLAIN it all from A-Z to somebody. Sometimes I wonder if the average MD bothers to invest that time. I already know the answer to that.. Instead, I have to explain it all when they wander into GNC with that clue-less look on their face.
I am not sticking up for BB's. The sport is NOT worth what they go thru. I just don't like the negative sensationalism that people throw at them
NOBODY knows it all. Not You, not Me, Not C. Everett Koop. We should all work together to solve the chronic illnesses
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something else to think about - guys have health problems that we'll never hear about. once you're labeled as a health risk, the ifbb doesn't have love anymore (see: don long). these guys have to make a living. They know and they aren't going to come on getbig and announce they have X or Y.
I think Kevin Levrone may have had some MAJOR health problems but never made them public.
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HAHAHAHAH According to fat, lying, Beef Rinser, Internet Hoaxer, Cult Leader, Rack Chin Queer Dante` 230 lb natural is obtainable, even 250.
hahahhahaa I hate that dude with a passion for spreading lies,making people think they can achieve an impossibility. I have asked him time and time again to find me ONE GODDAMNED PERSON that meets that criteria. 6 ft and under 220 lbs completely ripped. He can`t. Nobody can.
The sad thing is he believes its possible. And I hate the fact that you guys have given this lying clown even a sentence of press time. Pathetic.
Actually your problem with me is in that I rejected you when you wanted me to train you at Mayhem. I told you then and Ill tell you now "quality of character" is part of the equation and you flunk that in spades. Im sorry it hurts your ego so badly that you just cant get over it.
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9385&page=1&pp=20&highlight=adonis
Heres some more links for you since you cant figure out why olive oil would be beneficial to someone (heart health wise, colon cancer wise, prostrate wise) and as a healthy fat to gain weight by putting a tablespoon (or two) in a non carb protein drink in those who have awful appetites --actually no, you do the research or keep looking like an idiot, the choice is yours
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Oh yea before I forget--"Extra lean ground beef would be your best choice in ground beef to make a lean beef stew. And a good tip is to rinse your ground beef after cooking. New Canadian studies on ground beef show that by simply rinsing it after cooking can reduce the fat greatly.(Diversified Research Laboratories Inc. 1999).
Rinsing ground beef causes little difference in the amount of most nutrients such as protein, iron, zinc and B-vitamins. The main difference is in terms of fat and calories. Rinsing regular ground beef crumbles after cooking and draining can reduce the fat content by about 25% - to approximately the amount of fat in an equal serving of cooked lean ground beef crumbles. Rinsing regular ground beef also reduces the number of calories by 12% and decreases the amounts of sodium, potassium and phosphorus. Later studies have suggested rinsing could reduce fat up to 40-50%"
So you go right ahead and keep doing your thing, want a glass of bacon fat to wash down that burger Adonis? Whats the next great gleam of information we can get from you? People should stop doing cardio altogether and start gargling down grizzle and marbled fat? Your awesome bro, the fact that you believe half the crap that comes out of your mouth is pretty amazing in itself.
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Actually your problem with me is in that I rejected you when you wanted me to train you at Mayhem. I told you then and Ill tell you now "quality of character" is part of the equation and you flunk that in spades. Im sorry it hurts your ego so badly that you just cant get over it.
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9385&page=1&pp=20&highlight=adonis
Heres some more links for you since you cant figure out why olive oil would be beneficial to someone (heart health wise, colon cancer wise, prostrate wise) and as a healthy fat to gain weight by putting a tablespoon (or two) in a non carb protein drink in those who have awful appetites --actually no, you do the research or keep looking like an idiot, the choice is yours
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Oh yea before I forget--"Extra lean ground beef would be your best choice in ground beef to make a lean beef stew. And a good tip is to rinse your ground beef after cooking. New Canadian studies on ground beef show that by simply rinsing it after cooking can reduce the fat greatly.(Diversified Research Laboratories Inc. 1999).
Rinsing ground beef causes little difference in the amount of most nutrients such as protein, iron, zinc and B-vitamins. The main difference is in terms of fat and calories. Rinsing regular ground beef crumbles after cooking and draining can reduce the fat content by about 25% - to approximately the amount of fat in an equal serving of cooked lean ground beef crumbles. Rinsing regular ground beef also reduces the number of calories by 12% and decreases the amounts of sodium, potassium and phosphorus. Later studies have suggested rinsing could reduce fat up to 40-50%"
So you go right ahead and keep doing your thing, want a glass of bacon fat to wash down that burger Adonis? Whats the next great gleam of information we can get from you? People should stop doing cardio altogether and start gargling down grizzle and marbled fat? Your awesome bro, the fact that you believe half the crap that comes out of your mouth is pretty amazing in itself.
still doing all your pressing movements on the Smith Machine, "big guy"?
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Actually your problem with me is in that I rejected you when you wanted me to train you at Mayhem. I told you then and Ill tell you now "quality of character" is part of the equation and you flunk that in spades. Im sorry it hurts your ego so badly that you just cant get over it.
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9385&page=1&pp=20&highlight=adonis
Heres some more links for you since you cant figure out why olive oil would be beneficial to someone (heart health wise, colon cancer wise, prostrate wise) and as a healthy fat to gain weight by putting a tablespoon (or two) in a non carb protein drink in those who have awful appetites --actually no, you do the research or keep looking like an idiot, the choice is yours
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Oh yea before I forget--"Extra lean ground beef would be your best choice in ground beef to make a lean beef stew. And a good tip is to rinse your ground beef after cooking. New Canadian studies on ground beef show that by simply rinsing it after cooking can reduce the fat greatly.(Diversified Research Laboratories Inc. 1999).
Rinsing ground beef causes little difference in the amount of most nutrients such as protein, iron, zinc and B-vitamins. The main difference is in terms of fat and calories. Rinsing regular ground beef crumbles after cooking and draining can reduce the fat content by about 25% - to approximately the amount of fat in an equal serving of cooked lean ground beef crumbles. Rinsing regular ground beef also reduces the number of calories by 12% and decreases the amounts of sodium, potassium and phosphorus. Later studies have suggested rinsing could reduce fat up to 40-50%"
So you go right ahead and keep doing your thing, want a glass of bacon fat to wash down that burger Adonis? Whats the next great gleam of information we can get from you? People should stop doing cardio altogether and start gargling down grizzle and marbled fat? Your awesome bro, the fact that you believe half the crap that comes out of your mouth is pretty amazing in itself.
You still avoided the question.
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whats wrong with smith? smith is as hard as free weights,, take off 10lb for the bar on the smith because its little lighter than free bar,,,and you got same end result from either free weights or smith. stabelizer muscles means nothing and it is poor excuse for people want to impress dumb women and dumber men in gyms. INFACT i find smith to be better for specific exercises and preventing many injuries. YOU CAN TRAIN WITH CABLE AND BOW FLEX AND HAVE AS GOOD OF A PHYSIQE AS A GUY THAT TRAIN WITH FREE WEIGHTS FOR 3 YEARS IN A RAW AS LONG AS YOU TRAIN YOUR MUSCLES CORRECTLY AND TO FAILURE.
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whats wrong with smith? smith is as hard as free weights,, take off 10lb for the bar on the smith because its little lighter than free bar,,,and you got same end result from either free weights or smith. stabelizer muscles means nothing and it is poor excuse for people want to impress dumb women and dumber men in gyms. INFACT i find smith to be better for specific exercises and preventing many injuries. YOU CAN TRAIN WITH CABLE AND BOW FLEX AND HAVE AS GOOD OF A PHYSIQE AS A GUY THAT TRAIN WITH FREE WEIGHTS FOR 3 YEARS IN A RAW AS LONG AS YOU TRAIN YOUR MUSCLES CORRECTLY AND TO FAILURE.
And with the rights drugs, some people can even turn pro correct?
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whats wrong with smith? smith is as hard as free weights,, take off 10lb for the bar on the smith because its little lighter than free bar,,,and you got same end result from either free weights or smith. stabelizer muscles means nothing and it is poor excuse for people want to impress dumb women and dumber men in gyms. INFACT i find smith to be better for specific exercises and preventing many injuries. YOU CAN TRAIN WITH CABLE AND BOW FLEX AND HAVE AS GOOD OF A PHYSIQE AS A GUY THAT TRAIN WITH FREE WEIGHTS FOR 3 YEARS IN A RAW AS LONG AS YOU TRAIN YOUR MUSCLES CORRECTLY AND TO FAILURE.
hahahaha, looks like i touched a nerve with Mr. Czeckoslovakian roid user, hahahaha, monster lack of free weight training.
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And with the rights drugs, some people can even turn pro correct?
no you need the genetics to respond well to those drugs my friend,, it's a combo of physical factors and lots of time,,money,,determination,,and luck as i said many times before.
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Actually your problem with me is in that I rejected you when you wanted me to train you at Mayhem. I told you then and Ill tell you now "quality of character" is part of the equation and you flunk that in spades. Im sorry it hurts your ego so badly that you just cant get over it.
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9385&page=1&pp=20&highlight=adonis
Heres some more links for you since you cant figure out why olive oil would be beneficial to someone (heart health wise, colon cancer wise, prostrate wise) and as a healthy fat to gain weight by putting a tablespoon (or two) in a non carb protein drink in those who have awful appetites --actually no, you do the research or keep looking like an idiot, the choice is yours
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Oh yea before I forget--"Extra lean ground beef would be your best choice in ground beef to make a lean beef stew. And a good tip is to rinse your ground beef after cooking. New Canadian studies on ground beef show that by simply rinsing it after cooking can reduce the fat greatly.(Diversified Research Laboratories Inc. 1999).
Rinsing ground beef causes little difference in the amount of most nutrients such as protein, iron, zinc and B-vitamins. The main difference is in terms of fat and calories. Rinsing regular ground beef crumbles after cooking and draining can reduce the fat content by about 25% - to approximately the amount of fat in an equal serving of cooked lean ground beef crumbles. Rinsing regular ground beef also reduces the number of calories by 12% and decreases the amounts of sodium, potassium and phosphorus. Later studies have suggested rinsing could reduce fat up to 40-50%"
So you go right ahead and keep doing your thing, want a glass of bacon fat to wash down that burger Adonis? Whats the next great gleam of information we can get from you? People should stop doing cardio altogether and start gargling down grizzle and marbled fat? Your awesome bro, the fact that you believe half the crap that comes out of your mouth is pretty amazing in itself.
DC, your training method may not have worked for me but I do respect your work in bodybuilding and you know I'm big fan of Tru Protein.
And just to let you folks know, I rinse my beef whenever I make my Texas Chili recipe. It doesn't affect the flavor and it does take out a lot of fat.
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DC, your training method may not have worked for me but I do respect your work in bodybuilding and you know I'm big fan of Tru Protein.
And just to let you folks know, I rinse my beef whenever I make my Texas Chili recipe. It doesn't affect the flavor and it does take out a lot of fat.
i'm sure he'll be able to sleep better at night knowing he has your endorsement Vince. ::)
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DC, your training method may not have worked for me but I do respect your work in bodybuilding and you know I'm big fan of Tru Protein.
What is the training method that works best for you vince ?
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What is the training method that works best for you vince ?
it's called the Thinking About Lifting Weights But Staying Home And Watching TV And Eating Cheetos Training Program, gauranteed to keep you skinny/fat like Vince in no time at all.
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I don`t really have too much of a problem with his methods, it is more of his beliefs and the way he touts the methods as well as they way he uses the word "Genetics".
He cannot produce one person that Natural who is under 6 feet, completely ripped at 220. He still thinks his methods enable someone to do that. He still thinks there are people that walk around meeting that criteria. He also thinks you can rush a muscle gain by doing some strange ass exercises with a combination of Extreme levels of protein.
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You still avoided the question.
all of them, the clown
hahahaha, looks like i touched a nerve with Mr. Czeckoslovakian roid user, hahahaha, monster lack of free weight training.
LOL, I thought he was being sarcastic? jesus, what a toolbag
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DC, your training method may not have worked for me but I do respect your work in bodybuilding and you know I'm big fan of Tru Protein.
And just to let you folks know, I rinse my beef whenever I make my Texas Chili recipe. It doesn't affect the flavor and it does take out a lot of fat.
You are a monster fool
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I think Kevin Levrone may have had some MAJOR health problems but never made them public.
like what?
E
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like what?
E
No idea. I am willing to bet a doctor did tell him to stop doing whatever he was doing.
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made the local newspaper
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06204/708086-53.stm
E
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no you need the genetics to respond well to those drugs my friend,, it's a combo of physical factors and lots of time,,money,,determination,,and luck as i said many times before.
Ahahahaahaaa, monster steroid user excuse.
And what's up with the double commata,, is that some secret sign???
Or too much Ephedrine in your system?
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whats wrong with smith? smith is as hard as free weights,, take off 10lb for the bar on the smith because its little lighter than free bar,,,and you got same end result from either free weights or smith. stabelizer muscles means nothing and it is poor excuse for people want to impress dumb women and dumber men in gyms. INFACT i find smith to be better for specific exercises and preventing many injuries. YOU CAN TRAIN WITH CABLE AND BOW FLEX AND HAVE AS GOOD OF A PHYSIQE AS A GUY THAT TRAIN WITH FREE WEIGHTS FOR 3 YEARS IN A RAW AS LONG AS YOU TRAIN YOUR MUSCLES CORRECTLY AND TO FAILURE.
You know, we don't always agree, but I'm with you on this one.
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A BB may use 2-4 IU/day, while an AIDS patient uses much more than that. BTW-How much GH does an adolescent use ?
Are you saying a BBer uses 2-4 IU a day of GH? ROFL!!! Yeah, Ronnie and Jay use 2-4 IU - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA..................
Try 3-4 times more per day.
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Ron, very good posts, very honest and informative, just like your MD articles.
The only problem I have is altough I belive Ronnie doesnt take alot and is genetically very gifted. I dont belive he turned Pro naturally.
I know thats what he claims but he also claims publically that he natural. He probably used very little but I doubt you belive he was clean when turned pro. Only Ronnie knows the truth.
Mindspin, why the hell are you a moderator on Bodybuilding board, if you show suche disrespect to Bodybuilder. I mean you had a great physique and maybe still do, but it's very obvious all your posts are full of hatred to bodybuilders. The bottom line you are asshole and not only shouldnt be a moderator but should not be here period.
Dave Palumbo was helping Anthony with his comeback, so it puzzles me is that while Dave is such an expert he wouldnt advice his friend/client against getting ready for a show, taking diuretics (which I belive are responsible for anthony's death).
RIP Anthony. You were a great guy and very helpful to me.
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Coleman hasn't claimed to be natural in about 10 years, IIRC. Used to be his tagline, then he got very silent about it when he started winning.
His use is right up there at the top. The growth in his skull over the last 8 years is terrifying.
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Ron, very good posts, very honest and informative, just like your MD articles.
The only problem I have is altough I belive Ronnie doesnt take alot and is genetically very gifted. I dont belive he turned Pro naturally.
I know thats what he claims but he also claims publically that he natural. He probably used very little but I doubt you belive he was clean when turned pro. Only Ronnie knows the truth.
Mindspin, why the hell are you a moderator on Bodybuilding board, if you show suche disrespect to Bodybuilder. I mean you had a great physique and maybe still do, but it's very obvious all your posts are full of hatred to bodybuilders. The bottom line you are asshole and not only shouldnt be a moderator but should not be here period.
Dave Palumbo was helping Anthony with his comeback, so it puzzles me is that while Dave is such an expert he wouldnt advice his friend/client against getting ready for a show, taking diuretics (which I belive are responsible for anthony's death).
RIP Anthony. You were a great guy and very helpful to me.
Good post. Ronnie didn't turn pro naturally !! Nobody has. I remember it was in FLEX or Muscle fitness that Darrem Charles was also years ago. All that is simply not true. Coleman LIED about all that because he was a cop, and he doesn't want to go back and untangle all that. Just like Barry Bonds. He will go to his grave either maintaining he is 100% natural, or that he didn't use until whatever year in the 1990's.
I asked Wayne Demilia this question in the early 1990's. He stated the obvious in a phone conversation.
"Nobody on that stage is natural"
There ARE genetic freaks !! Ronnie is one of them. And he works his ass off !! But NOBODY turns PRO-or wins a national title, or wins a statewide title, or a level 3 show & above NATURALLY !! NOBODY !! Not even the great Ronnie Coleman..
He will take that to the grave with him, all the talk about him being natural for so many early years.
And in a way I cant blame him. Sometimes a lie gets so big that it has to remain that way forever.
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Coleman hasn't claimed to be natural in about 10 years, IIRC. Used to be his tagline, then he got very silent about it when he started winning.
His use is right up there at the top. The growth in his skull over the last 8 years is terrifying.
im going to have to look at some old pictures and compare.....I've never really noticed with Ronnie. Jay I did though.
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im going to have to look at some old pictures and compare.....I've never really noticed with Ronnie. Jay I did though.
http://www.240orbust.com/downloads/rc.wmv
here's an earlier video clip
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....my god.
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http://www.240orbust.com/downloads/rc.wmv
here's an earlier video clip
He looked way better there. Thats just crazy. He could actually move around.
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Bodybuilding hasn't been about building a healthy physique since around 1970 or so.
Sad, but true.
RIP Anthony. Condolences to family and friends.
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DC, your training method may not have worked for me but I do respect your work in bodybuilding and you know I'm big fan of Tru Protein.
And just to let you folks know, I rinse my beef whenever I make my Texas Chili recipe. It doesn't affect the flavor and it does take out a lot of fat.
Wow, if Vince rinses his beef, maybe I should too.............. ::)
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Johnny, yes I am a physician and I do work out. In fact, I stress diet, exercise and weight loss to all of my patients. However, I agree with you that most physicians do not practice what they preach; it does piss me off to see a physician smoke for instance. However, I believe you are mistaking something grossly; medical science does not make blanket statements without scientific proof. For instance, over 50% if Pima Indians are diabetic; this has been proven over and over again. There is a known genetic basis for this. Type 2 Diabetes has an exceedingly high genetic basis; thus, if your mom had it you are at increased risk. Blacks are known to be at increased risk to be hypertensive; this has nothing to do with their conditioning. There are genetic basis for both hypertension and diabetes. Now, you use testosterone and only test. Let us see, do you honestly think that if you run of the threadmill for thirty minutes a day it would prevent the negative cholesterol side effects. The answer is no. Also, exercise only decreases a patient's cholesterol by 15-20% max. This has been studied. Even world class athletes are on lipitor or zocor. There is definitely a genetic basis. Here is a linky for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9537421
Now, let us say you dabble in GH. You don't believe that an adult male with normal GH levels who takes in far more than is physiologically necessary will have side effects. Yes, long term studies are few and far between, but when kids who take just a enough GH to boost growth (miniscule compared to pro BB) have an increased risk for diabetes that should raise your eyebrows. GH does cause diabetes and I gurantee that if professional BB's who abused GH took routine bloodwork; this would come out. BTW, even if an athlete has hypertension or diabetes do you really think they would let anyone but their physicians and immediate family to know. No way as they are making a living doing this stuff.
Finally, do roids cause liver cancer? Well, once again you are uninformed. Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor. Did steroids contribute to this. We will never know, although I am sure they did not exactly slow down the cancer. However, anabolics (especially oral steroids which require two passes in the liver) can cause cirrhosis and cancer. Don't believe me, check out some links or just google it. There are numerous journal articles that show your ignorance. Word of mouth from your steroid dealers and buddies is not fact. In fact, most steroid abusers are so in the dark that it is actually quite scary that they would consider injecting or ingesting this stuff without medical supervision. It is stupid and dangerous. At least if you use, get a qualified physician who is not judgemental to test you. It is pretty easy. Well, here is the last link. Hope this clears up some of your misconceptions.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html
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Johnny, yes I am a physician and I do work out. In fact, I stress diet, exercise and weight loss to all of my patients. However, I agree with you that most physicians do not practice what they preach; it does piss me off to see a physician smoke for instance. However, I believe you are mistaking something grossly; medical science does not make blanket statements without scientific proof. For instance, over 50% if Pima Indians are diabetic; this has been proven over and over again. There is a known genetic basis for this. Type 2 Diabetes has an exceedingly high genetic basis; thus, if your mom had it you are at increased risk. Blacks are known to be at increased risk to be hypertensive; this has nothing to do with their conditioning. There are genetic basis for both hypertension and diabetes. Now, you use testosterone and only test. Let us see, do you honestly think that if you run of the threadmill for thirty minutes a day it would prevent the negative cholesterol side effects. The answer is no. Also, exercise only decreases a patient's cholesterol by 15-20% max. This has been studied. Even world class athletes are on lipitor or zocor. There is definitely a genetic basis. Here is a linky for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9537421
Now, let us say you dabble in GH. You don't believe that an adult male with normal GH levels who takes in far more than is physiologically necessary will have side effects. Yes, long term studies are few and far between, but when kids who take just a enough GH to boost growth (miniscule compared to pro BB) have an increased risk for diabetes that should raise your eyebrows. GH does cause diabetes and I gurantee that if professional BB's who abused GH took routine bloodwork; this would come out. BTW, even if an athlete has hypertension or diabetes do you really think they would let anyone but their physicians and immediate family to know. No way as they are making a living doing this stuff.
Finally, do roids cause liver cancer? Well, once again you are uninformed. Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor. Did steroids contribute to this. We will never know, although I am sure they did not exactly slow down the cancer. However, anabolics (especially oral steroids which require two passes in the liver) can cause cirrhosis and cancer. Don't believe me, check out some links or just google it. There are numerous journal articles that show your ignorance. Word of mouth from your steroid dealers and buddies is not fact. In fact, most steroid abusers are so in the dark that it is actually quite scary that they would consider injecting or ingesting this stuff without medical supervision. It is stupid and dangerous. At least if you use, get a qualified physician who is not judgemental to test you. It is pretty easy. Well, here is the last link. Hope this clears up some of your misconceptions.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html
Very good post.
Nico,
How do you feel about Doctors prescribing steroids when they are not medically necessary?
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At least if you use, get a qualified physician who is not judgemental to test you.
Yeah, good luck finding one of those! ::)
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What a great sport bodybuilding has become. It is one sick joke. Anyone that posts encouraging the use of any sort of gear is irresponsible in the least.
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learn what? Not to live life doing what you love? Some people live their whole lives wishing they had done this or that. He died doing what he wanted to be doing.
Yeah at the ripe old age of 44.
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Johnny, yes I am a physician and I do work out. In fact, I stress diet, exercise and weight loss to all of my patients. However, I agree with you that most physicians do not practice what they preach; it does piss me off to see a physician smoke for instance. However, I believe you are mistaking something grossly; medical science does not make blanket statements without scientific proof. For instance, over 50% if Pima Indians are diabetic; this has been proven over and over again. There is a known genetic basis for this. Type 2 Diabetes has an exceedingly high genetic basis; thus, if your mom had it you are at increased risk. Blacks are known to be at increased risk to be hypertensive; this has nothing to do with their conditioning. There are genetic basis for both hypertension and diabetes. Now, you use testosterone and only test. Let us see, do you honestly think that if you run of the threadmill for thirty minutes a day it would prevent the negative cholesterol side effects. The answer is no. Also, exercise only decreases a patient's cholesterol by 15-20% max. This has been studied. Even world class athletes are on lipitor or zocor. There is definitely a genetic basis. Here is a linky for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9537421
Now, let us say you dabble in GH. You don't believe that an adult male with normal GH levels who takes in far more than is physiologically necessary will have side effects. Yes, long term studies are few and far between, but when kids who take just a enough GH to boost growth (miniscule compared to pro BB) have an increased risk for diabetes that should raise your eyebrows. GH does cause diabetes and I gurantee that if professional BB's who abused GH took routine bloodwork; this would come out. BTW, even if an athlete has hypertension or diabetes do you really think they would let anyone but their physicians and immediate family to know. No way as they are making a living doing this stuff.
Finally, do roids cause liver cancer? Well, once again you are uninformed. Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor. Did steroids contribute to this. We will never know, although I am sure they did not exactly slow down the cancer. However, anabolics (especially oral steroids which require two passes in the liver) can cause cirrhosis and cancer. Don't believe me, check out some links or just google it. There are numerous journal articles that show your ignorance. Word of mouth from your steroid dealers and buddies is not fact. In fact, most steroid abusers are so in the dark that it is actually quite scary that they would consider injecting or ingesting this stuff without medical supervision. It is stupid and dangerous. At least if you use, get a qualified physician who is not judgemental to test you. It is pretty easy. Well, here is the last link. Hope this clears up some of your misconceptions.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html
Hi there, just wondering if you would throw up the link linking steroid use to liver cancer
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True Adonis, I think you would literally have to go out of the US, as a physician who prescribes drugs (any drugs) without a legit reason could lose his license to practice medicine. Anabolic steroids are also a class 3 DEA drug; a physician has to have a DEA number to prescribe it. I would think with all of PC of lawmakers and such that any physician who suddenly started prescribing to his buddies would stand up and take notice. Similar to physicians who were busted (and are getting busted all the time) for prescribing narcotics illegally.
Goatboy, I agree that a physician would not support the use of anabolic steroids. However, per doctor/patient confidentiality, he would have to keep that between himself and you. For one thing, he could monitor cholesterol and liver function testing. He may preach to you about their dangers, but he would still treat you. He is not law enforcement and can't bust you. He has to treat people who abuse tobacco, drink excessively and use illicit drugs (cocaine, heroin, etc). Thus, although I agree he may be somewhat judgemental, who gives a rat ass if he can at least inform you that you may be pushing things too far. Ultimately, to wade in the world of steroids without knowing what its effects are to your body is akin to having unprotected sex with a street hooker in Tiajuana. :o Peace all.
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Yeah at the ripe old age of 44.
its horrible.
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Woten,
Here is a linky for you: It is basic. If you want actual journal review articles, I will need to search further. WebMD is a pretty reputable site though and is usually not associated with hyperbole.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/65/72665.htm
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(http://www.wackypackages.org/realproductsscans/2004/jk/advil_small.jpg)
Mindspin, you are a little homo. What do you expect from a guy who never won a title to speak of who thinks he is better than Steve Reeves was.
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Woten, here is another link. It is from MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX. It is the world's premier cancer center. I would trust these guys.
http://www.mdanderson.org/diseases/liver/
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And another one: ;D
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_2X_What_are_the_risk_factors_for_liver_cancer_25.asp?sitearea=
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Why is that advil picture posted on the http://www.wackypackages.org website? I have fond memories of those cards as a child growing up in the eighties in Newfoundland.
Americans make fun of Canadians.
To put things into perspective, Canadians make fun of Newfies. ;D
Wow, I almost forgot those existed!
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Woten,
Here is a linky for you: It is basic. If you want actual journal review articles, I will need to search further. WebMD is a pretty reputable site though and is usually not associated with hyperbole.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/65/72665.htm
hi nicorulez, thanks for your time on this
I would indeed prefer peer reviewed journal pieces if possible
As you can obviously appreciate, throwing around broad statements such as 'steroids can cause this' without a raft of substantial case reports/papers is not conducive to to this debate, if anything, its just as annoying as those clowns whom indulge in steroids willy nilly and encourage other to do the same
This issue has been around for literally six decades now, yet where are the telephone thick journals listing such studies?
Outside of the undenied [albeit in most cases temporary] effects on lipids and liver enzyme levels, I'm far from convinced about a major risk of liver cancer from steroids, but nonetheless, I would enjoy reading anything you feel might be worthwhile reading, your informed opinion is welcome mate
Cheers
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Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor.
Those two conditions are not exactly mutually exclusive, are they? And I've read repeatedly that the type of brain cancer Alzado is said to have suffered from (either T-Cell Lymphoma or Kaposi Sarcoma, depending upon who you talk to) is a common cause of death in AIDS patients, but not a common affliction / cause of death among HIV negative populations. Is this correct or not?
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240,
You wrong. I attended few of the post Olympia seminars and on numerous ocassions Ronnie still claimed that he is natural. Others, like Brian Dobson did state that he is not, but Ronnie always denied it. But who really cares. We all know the truth. All I am saying that even though he is a genetic freak, he did not turn pro natural. No way.
There should be a vote or something to remove MINDSPIN from being a mod on bodybuilding board. He has no class, no respect and is an absolute hater towards all pros. We are on bodybuilding boards cause we love bodybuilding and if something as unfortunate as Anthony's death happens stupid jokes like advil pic are completely out of line.
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I would never encourage steroid use.
I am fairly certain, based on the sheer amounts of health problems and premature deaths we have been seeing, that long-term steroid use, especially at the level that most NPC and IFBB competitors use, is going to take years off your life - maybe 5, maybe 10, maybe 30 or more.
I also think simply being that large isn't healthy as it makes organs like the heart and digestive system work so much harder. Nobody was meant to carry 300 pounds at 5-10 or to eat 600 grams of protein a day.
And as far as Ronnie turning pro naturally, I do think he did but obviously I have no way of knowing for sure. I am just basing that on how much bigger he got later on and because there are some rare genetic freaks out there. We had a black kid in my high school that was about six foot, couldn't have weighed more than 190, but had these huge arms and a monster chest. He lived in the projects, so I doubt he was even using protein powders (whatever existed back then, 1985-1986), much less steroids.
He trained at the Boy's Club in Waltham, MA and I used to see him do nothing but bench presses and curls for two hours every mon-fri afternoon.
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240,
You wrong. I attended few of the post Olympia seminars and on numerous ocassions Ronnie still claimed that he is natural. Others, like Brian Dobson did state that he is not, but Ronnie always denied it. But who really cares. We all know the truth. All I am saying that even though he is a genetic freak, he did not turn pro natural. No way.
There should be a vote or something to remove MINDSPIN from being a mod on bodybuilding board. He has no class, no respect and is an absolute hater towards all pros. We are on bodybuilding boards cause we love bodybuilding and if something as unfortunate as Anthony's death happens stupid jokes like advil pic are completely out of line.
Wow, in that case Coleman is kinda a choad for continuing that charade. I remember it was aruond then that the ads stopped focusing on the natural angle. LOL @ Coleman with a sandow claiming natty status.
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I read an article in an old flex mag or muscle mag about ronnie and how hes a cop and he just turned pro and had never used any drug at all. it was written by brian dobson...im going to go dig it out.
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Gordon, you are correct. However, I am in the dark about whether Alzado had AIDS. If he did, then I apologize as that would be a very strong possibility. Peace all.
Woten, I will look on UPTODATE, which is the foremost and most comprehensive medical review site on the web. I will post back soon. Take care and I tend to agree with you that blanket statements are made all the time. However, when the American Cancer Society and MD Anderson post similar articles; I would tend to believe they have some proof. I will see if I can find it.
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Woten, UPTODATE is down but I found this really good review article. It has references to studies that it bases the reviews about. To be honest, I had forgotten about the risk of peliosis hepatis (blood filled cysts..I am not a hepatologist you know ;)). Kind of scary stuff and I am glad I never made the leap to using, although it has been tempting.
http://www.acsm-msse.org/pt/pt-core/template-journal/msse/media/0587.pdf
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Gordon, you are correct. However, I am in the dark about whether Alzado had AIDS. If he did, then I apologize as that would be a very strong possibility. Peace all.
Woten, I will look on UPTODATE, which is the foremost and most comprehensive medical review site on the web. I will post back soon. Take care and I tend to agree with you that blanket statements are made all the time. However, when the American Cancer Society and MD Anderson post similar articles; I would tend to believe they have some proof. I will see if I can find it.
No need to apologize. I'm certainly in no way sure that he had AIDS myself. I'm just connecting the dots, based upon the persistent widespread rumors of his alledged homosexuality and IV rec drug use (frequently coming from those who knew him from around the Gold's Gym / Venice bodybuilding scene), not to mention the reported nature of his illness ( and the persistent rumors of AIDS related cancer), and his personal physician stating that he found no link between Lyle's illness and steroid use.
I tend to be skeptical of heresay, but I've learned that in real life such persistent rumors (particularly with such consistent content and coming from so many different sources) more often than not have some degree of truth to them. I think it's ironic that if Alzado did in fact have AIDS, the steroids and GH that he blamed for his sickness may have actually helped prolong his life.
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Bodybuilder collapses, dies
Sunday, July 23, 2006
A Rhode Island man who was planning to make a comeback in his favorite sport of bodybuilding collapsed and died while preparing for a local competition.
Anthony D'Arezzo, 44, of Johnston, R.I., was in Pittsburgh for the weekend's NPC Teen, Collegiate and Masters National Championships bodybuilding competition when he collapsed Friday afternoon in his hotel room at Sheraton Station Square.
An autopsy yesterday ruled that Mr. D'Arezzo died of cardiomyopathy, according to the Allegheny County medical examiner's office.
Mr. D'Arezzo had long battled heart disease, said friend Dave Palumbo.
According to a resume posted on Mr. D'Arezzo's Web site, he had not participated in a major bodybuilding event since 1997.
"He was trying a comeback," said Mr. Palumbo, who spoke with Mr. D'Arezzo earlier on Friday.
Mr. D'Arezzo was a fitness trainer in Providence, R.I. The competition was taking place at the Sheraton.
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this was posted already in Anthonys thread................
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Type 2 Diabetes has an exceedingly high genetic basis; thus, if your mom had it you are at increased risk. There are genetic basis for both hypertension and diabetes. Now, you use testosterone and only test. Let us see, do you honestly think that if you run of the threadmill for thirty minutes a day it would prevent the negative cholesterol side effects. The answer is no. Also, exercise only decreases a patient's cholesterol by 15-20% max. This has been studied.
GH does cause diabetes and I gurantee that if professional BB's who abused GH took routine bloodwork; this would come out. BTW, even if an athlete has hypertension or diabetes do you really think they would let anyone but their physicians and immediate family to know. No way as they are making a living doing this stuff.
Finally, do roids cause liver cancer? Well, once again you are uninformed. Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor. Did steroids contribute to this. We will never know, although I am sure they did not exactly slow down the cancer. However, anabolics (especially oral steroids which require two passes in the liver) can cause cirrhosis and cancer. There are numerous journal articles that show your ignorance. Word of mouth from your steroid dealers and buddies is not fact. In fact, most steroid abusers are so in the dark that it is actually quite scary that they would consider injecting or ingesting this stuff without medical supervision. It is stupid and dangerous.
I know Alzado stated he died of a brain tumor. I have spoken personally to 3 men that played in the NFL, including one on the Minnesota Vikings, one on the New York Jets, and lastly, one on the Raiders that said he was bi-sexual. All 3 of these men said the NFL wanted it covered up, and his family wanted it covered up also. His own doctor, Dr. Huzingua stated that he DID NOT die from AAS !! If steroids cause brain tumors, then wouldn't the highest incidence of brain tumors be found in pro BB's ? NAME ONE !!!
You can't.
You can go back 50 years and not produce a single name !! Howcome the 1 million men in this country on hormone replacement aren't dying of brain tumors ? If they were, Doctors would not prescribe them.
If GH use caused diabetes, then wouldn't the highest incidence of diabetes be found
among the IFBB Pro's ? Then NAME ONE !! You cant..
(I know-EVERYBODY in the world is lying about it :-X)
If you re-read my post, I NEVER said that weightlifting is the save all for high Cholesterol !! In fact, I said that the AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. That was the reason LOTS of BB have heart attacks from
prolonged use...In addition to being in an insulin dominant state.
I don't know where you live & work, maybe in a galaxy far far away. Let me tell you what the diabetics in Florida say. I talk to between 5-10 diabetics EVERY DAY I work at GNC. If you do the math, that is between 5000-10,000 people over the last 4 years..
EVERY SINGLE ONE of the type 2 diabetics I have ever met REFUSES to engage in a formal resistance training program. It doesn't get any more REAL LIFE than that. How do you explain that ????
Just please explain to me why 99% of the type 2's that I speak to DON'T exercise.
Yet at the same time, all your type 2's DO exercise, but they were cursed with bad genes ?
You cannot name ONE professional athlete in the WORLD that is Type 2 diabetic !!!
I have spoke to atleast 5,000 diabetics at my job, and they ALL are COUCH POTATOES with horrible nutritional habits. What more real life evidence do you need ?? OPEN your eyes !!
The diabetics I spoke to eat fucking BAGELS by themselves for breakfast !! Because the DR. never TALKED with them. The doctor blamed it on genetics. In case you havent noticed, families usually eat very similiar, and they have similiar habits. I know entire families that are either all athletic (because the parents got them into sports), or they are all very cerebral, or they are all in jail, or they are all mechanics.
Next you will be telling me that we are all fat in this country because of genetics.
It is scary that you are an MD-and you can't produce the name of one type-2 Diabetic athlete in the WORLD. The medical community ASSERTS theories from time to time. It wasn't that long ago that doctors claimed the type-2 diabetic no longer produces unsulin !! We know now that it was untrue.
That little piece of bullshit was believed within the last 5-10 years !!
If the BB is diabetic, then how in the world do so a gargantuan amount of nutrients get into his muscle cells ? He would not need bloodwork, he would be tired & lethargic all the time, not to mention small & weak.
The reason for high cholesterol is lack of FIBER and too many processed carbs!!!
Howcome 90% of the people that go on a ketogenic diet have noted improvement in their blood lipids ?
Remember that and you will be a better doctor.
Doctors have also ASSERTED androgen receptor down-regulation, and serotonin receptor down-regulation, when it did not actually exist.
Let me see if I understand your fuckud up logic...
ALL pro BB that are diabetic lie about it.......
But Lyle Alzado would never lie about being bi-sexual !!
Now you tell me which compromising fact would a person be more likely to cover up ?
You still have a long way to go before you can start truly helping your patients.
The first step is to quit blaming everything on GENETICS..
Always blaming genetics sounds very elite when it rolls off your tounge,
but it really shows how ignorant you are that you can't make
STAGGERING & REAL LIFE observations.
None of you MD's ever cure the diabetic. It just becomes a slow death.
Just like Waylon Jennings. He would have done anything to beat it.
But his stupid fucking DR. probably just told him it was genetic.
All he had to do was lift weights...But he never knew..
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it's common knowledge what Alzado died of , just google it.
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my bad
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it's common knowledge what Alzado died of , just google it.
Why don't you google "Gullable" and see if there is a picture of you next to it
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This is kinda funny... a clerk at GNC arguing with an M.D. over a health issue. ::)
Only on Getbig, guys! ;D
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Johnny, it is funny that an uneducated misinformed individual such as yourself try to teach me, a medical professional, about type 2 DM. I have shown you literature to back up my claims. You have told me the second hand knowledge that you gain making minimum wage at GNC. Whooosh....I guess I am wrong. Read my thread and the articles cited my friend. Clearly, type 2 diabetes has a strong genetic pre-disposition. So, every type 2 diabetic is fat huh. True, being obese increases insulin resistance, but in no way is it the only risk factor. Debating with someone as misinformed as yourself is a joke. I am sure any individual on this site with a modicum of medical knowledge is laughing at your high school biology knowledge base. ::) ::) ::).
Here's a link my friend:
http://www.diabetic-lifestyle.com/articles/jul00_whats_1.htm
See, genetics do play a role. ::)
Here are some athletes in the NFL who have type 2 diabetes. Trust me, I could find hundreds of more examples if you wish. I think your contribution to this thread is officially moot. Hasta la vista my GNC hombre. ;D
http://kids.jdrf.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=44EFE15C-2A5E-7B6E-1A2A90E06812960F
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Even funnier, the dude with type 2 diabetes was a three time Pro Bowler. Guess he is not athletic enough for you, heh Johnny. :o
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Another link Johnny boy. This is kinda like the veins vs arteries thread from a couple of months ago. Bring it on big guy. This is more fun than shooting fish in a barrel. ;D
http://experts.about.com/e/l/li/List_of_celebrities_with_diabetes.htm
I guess none of those athletes have Type 2 Diabetes (considering it compromises over 90 percent of all diabetics in this country ::)). Alas, there is not a bodybuilder on there; you are validated Johnny. ;)
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And another link. He is one lazy fat arse...no physical ability at all.
http://www.sportsmedicine.upmc.com/MySportFootballDiabetes.htm
Here's a link for a book I want you to buy. I bet you every one of them is a lazy, obese do nothing. Better yet, not a one will have Type 2 Diabetes (only 90% of diabetics are type 2 and they could not possibly be athletes):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736032711/ref=ase_childrenwithdiabA/102-5804805-6588939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=childrenwithdiabA
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Johnny Johnny, you have spoken to over 5000 diabetics and they are all fat. Really, not a thin one in the bunch. Well, then the ten years that I have been practicing medicine and have treated numerous athletes with type 2 diabetes is erroneous. Now, I concur completely that obesity increases glucose intolerance. However, not all type 2 diabetics are overweight and lazy. That is a blanket statement that only a misinformed individual would make. There are no 100% validations in medicine; there are always exceptions. So yes, probably 80% of type 2 diabetics are overweight or obese; where does that leave the other ones.
By the way, I know you don't believe me when i state a lot of diabetes is genetic. Here is a link regarding the Pima Indians.
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/genetic/genetic.htm
I just put in my input when I realized that your rationalizations and blanket statements were completely false. BTW, are you sure you and Sucky are not one and the same (Related?). Oh well, hope this clears up some misconceptions for you. I am sure the fifteen "fat" people who have diabetes that whined to you at GNC completely undermine my professional opinion. Oh well, I try.
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BTW Johnny, I treat type 2 diabetics everyday. When we put them on Biguanide therapy or thiazolinedione therapy (look it up genius), we are improving insulin sensitivity and decreasing gluconeogenesis. I have patients who have exercised and lost weight. Hell, I give you that a few have gotten off all meds and are diet controlled. However, I have some African American patient's who are as lean Adonis who are diabetics. However, they have parents who were both diabetics. We control their disease with diet, exercise and oral meds (usually of the classes above). Thus, do not think that I just overlook lifestyle when it comes to diabetics. Once again, you make blanket statements about MD's without ever speaking to one. I am an athlete; I want my patient's to exercise. However, to deny the existence of type 2 diabetes in non obese individuals is fallacy.
http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD023612.html
Educate yourself my GNC spouting friend.
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Educate yourself my GNC spouting friend.
Total ownage with all of those posts. ROFL!
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this was posted already in Anthonys thread................
yes by me 8)
E
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He lived in the projects, so I doubt he was even using protein powders (whatever existed back then, 1985-1986), much less steroids.
guys that live in the projects often use other drugs, why not steroids?
E
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Johnnytosh is an uninformed clown. My dad was just diagnosed with Type II diabetes, and he's lifted weights for over 40 years. No amount of exercise and good nutrition will make you immune from diabetes.
Oh, and LOL @ the GNC clerk calling other people "lazy". You might actually have some credibility if you weren't an 80 IQ minimum wage monkey.
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If only this guy got diagnosed with cardiomyopathy earlier... he could have gone on dilatrend, aldactone, cardiverol etc... pity
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Those two conditions are not exactly mutually exclusive, are they? And I've read repeatedly that the type of brain cancer Alzado is said to have suffered from (either T-Cell Lymphoma or Kaposi Sarcoma, depending upon who you talk to) is a common cause of death in AIDS patients, but not a common affliction / cause of death among HIV negative populations. Is this correct or not?
Thank you Gordon Gekko
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Yes Johnny, I am sure Gordan wanted to validate you. Have you read any of the other posts? Are all type 2 diabetics really lazy POS's? Will you admit that your GNC gained knowledge was actually wrong and a good percentage of Type 2 Diabetics (10-20% depending on which study you cite) are not obese and lazy? Well Johnny, are you? ??? ??? BTW, those phantom pro athletes who I linked to with Type 2 Diabetes...it was all a conspiracy to derail your thread. ;D
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Here are some athletes in the NFL who have type 2 diabetes. Trust me, I could find hundreds of more examples if you wish. I think your contribution to this thread is officially moot. Hasta la vista my GNC hombre. ;D
http://kids.jdrf.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=44EFE15C-2A5E-7B6E-1A2A90E06812960F
You are wrong assclown ! The link you sent me shows 2 of the 3 NFL players DID NOT have type 2 !!!
2 of them had TYPE 1 Juvenile onset !! Whats wrong ? Cant you read ?? So in the entire NFL, you came up with 1 names that is type 2. And to show how stupid you really are-Mike Sinclair (the black guy with the bad genetics) STATED THAT HE BEAT DIABETES with NUTRITION !!!!!!!!!!!! So I guess I was correct !! The "genetically -cursed african american" :'( was able to overcome his genetically determined fate by lifestyle changes !! Exactly what I have
been saying !!
According to your genetic theory-he wouldn't have been able to overcome genetics !!! BUT HE DID !!
You've just been owned using your own information !!! THANK GOD he had a doctor that didn't play the genetic card.
How many college players football platers are there in this country ? 40,000+, You had a computer search the entire country of college football players, and came up with the name of 1 person that you didn't even know existed !! So at this point we are 1 out of 40,000 !!! Shouldn't there be a perfect cross-section ratio that mirrors the population in general ? But there appears to be only 1 !! If genetics were true (you pompous flunkie) then we would see the SAME PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE IN SPORTS BECOMING DIABETIC as the GENERAL POPULATION !! We don't !! Do the math, that is .000025 of the population using your college football player.
Second-I NEVER said diabetics were "fat". I said they overwhelming majority were couch potatoes.
As far as Brian X, there are occasionally (rarely) people that DO lift weights and still get type-2.
Those people are either well over 50 years old, or still do not eat a balanced low-glycemic/protein/fat diet.
His father is the exception. He is probably close to 60 years old. I guess I should have made it clear. We started talking about IFBB pro's. I am referring to people & athletes in their 30's, 40's, up until about 50 years old.. I'm not talking about people in their 60's & 70's. The body does starts to fall apart by then.
NICORULZ-You are making a complete ASS of yourself !!! You sent me a link - the MAJORITY of the athletes on that list are TYPE-1 !!!!! WAKE UP !!! The only type 2's athletes on that list are people who turned into fat bastards after they retired !! James Buster Douglas ??? He literally weighed 400 pounds a few years ago !!! Talk about shooting fish in a barrell. You send me a list of athletes with TYPE-1, and a few athletes (that are no longer athletes) that have retired and stopped exercising and gained weight !!
You have EXACTLY re-inforced my argument !!
And you CAN'T find hundreds of more examples of type 2's, so why do you lie and say you can !!
Almost ALL the examples you found were type 1, or long retired athletes !!
Now, I concur completely that obesity increases glucose intolerance. However, not all type 2 diabetics are overweight and lazy. That is a blanket statement that only a misinformed individual would make. There are no 100% validations in medicine; there are always exceptions. So yes, probably 80% of type 2 diabetics are overweight or obese; where does that leave the other ones.
So you are stating that in 80% of the cases, I AM CORRECT ! These people DID IT TO THEMSELVES by lack of formal exercise, and a diet too high in processed carbs !! YOU ARE SAYING IT YOURSELF !!!!
And you & I both know it is well over 80% !! You are estimating low.. I am happy that you agree that 80% of the time, genetics probably DID NOT play a role !!
Atleast you are honest-Props to You !!
http://experts.about.com/e/l/li/List_of_celebrities_with_diabetes.htm
I guess none of those athletes have Type 2 Diabetes (considering it compromises over 90 percent of all diabetics in this country ::)). Alas, there is not a bodybuilder on there; you are validated Johnny. ;)
This discussion started about resistance training protecting the BB from becomin type-2 diabetic !!
And even you WORLD -WIDE internet search could not come up with the name of a BB !!
And the athletes on your link above, are either gonna be TYPE 1, or they have retired, or they are in their 50's & 60's..
There may be 2 at the most that were type 2's during theire career !!
Remember (also Brian X), we are not supposed to live as long as we do.. The body starts to fall apart !!
We are kept alive by artificial means & medicine many additional years.. Brian X's father is probably close to 60. It is a function of age at that point !! NOT GENETICS !!
Your teeth dont last your whole life..
I hope you learned something today !!!
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My only problem is, whenever there is a death in the bodybuilding community, it almost seems like there is a cover up as to what happened to the deceased(s) in questions. Sometime, it's very obvious, but nobody wants to come out and say it like it is. regardless, we always gonna ask questions why such and such die at a young age, and why that person(s) which was supposed to be healthy die so young. It's time to say it like it is.
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I remember when i got cardiomyopathy back in 2001 before the Ironman.Had a virus that went to the left ventricle causing it not to contract fully.People who have enlargeed hearts(nearly all athletes in strenuous sports) have weakening of the left ventricle 50%-60% contraction is considered normal.mine resting was37%-40% but while training was normal.So yes i go every year now for ekgs,stress test,and ultra sound stress tests.Cause you never know.
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I remember when i got cardiomyopathy back in 2001 before the Ironman.Had a virus that went to the left ventricle causing it not to contract fully.People who have enlargeed hearts(nearly all athletes in strenuous sports) have weakening of the left ventricle 50%-60% contraction is considered normal.mine resting was37%-40% but while training was normal.So yes i go every year now for ekgs,stress test,and ultra sound stress tests.Cause you never know.
Lee,
Is this why you no longer Mass Bulk?
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Lee,
Is this why you no longer Mass Bulk?
Pleeeease Adonis. You know you can't gain muscle w/o putting on 90lbs of fat baby!
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Pleeeease Adonis. You know you can't gain muscle w/o putting on 90lbs of fat baby!
You stupid bitch! You've unleashed the fuckin fury!
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ALSO BRIAN X
This minimum wage monkey is also a real estate agent since 1989. I just closed on a condo on Friday and pocketed a check for $3,500. I also own 8 homes on the Tampa area, and I have a net worth of well over a million dollars thanks to my realty investments.. I bet that hurts to hear Brian X.. Thants a far cry from minimum wage, You should think before you run your mouth.
then why are you working at GNC?
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Long Post = Meltd0wn.....
Johnny Tosh = Long Post
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ALSO BRIAN X
This minimum wage monkey is also a real estate agent since 1989. I just closed on a condo on Friday and pocketed a check for $3,500. I also own 8 homes on the Tampa area, and I have a net worth of well over a million dollars thanks to my realty investments.. I bet that hurts to hear Brian X.. Thants a far cry from minimum wage, You should think before you run your mouth.
Cool what is your website. My mom is looking to purchase a place in Tampa, she wants to retire there.
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then why are you working at GNC?
ROFL
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then why are you working at GNC?
Lolololoz! ;D
(Working at GNC is something most millionaires like to do for fun! ;D)
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There are several different types of cardiomyopathy. Some are genetic but others have environmental causese...ie, alcohol, drugs, infections. Anyone with this condition should be following with a cardiologist. Excessive bodyweight, supplements, and contest prep are all major stressors on the cardiovascular system...no matter what the initial cause.
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Cardiomyopathy refers to diseases of the heart muscle. These diseases have a variety of causes, symptoms, and treatments. In cardiomyopathy, the heart muscle becomes enlarged or abnormally thick or rigid. In rare cases, the muscle tissue in the heart is replaced with scar tissue.
As cardiomyopathy progresses, the heart becomes weaker and less able to pump blood through the body. This can lead to heart failure, arrhythmias (abnormal heart rhythms), fluid buildup in the lungs or legs, and, more rarely, endocarditis (a bacterial infection of the lining of the heart). The weakening of the heart also can lead to other severe complications.
The four main types of cardiomyopathy are:
Dilated cardiomyopathy
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy
Restrictive cardiomyopathy
Arrhythmogenic right ventricular dysplasia (ARVD)
Cardiomyopathy can have a specific cause, such as damage to the heart from a heart attack, high blood pressure, or a viral infection. Some types of cardiomyopathy are caused by a gene mutation and run in families. In many cases, the cause is unknown.
Cardiomyopathy can affect people of all ages, from babies to older adults. However, certain age groups are more likely to have certain types of cardiomyopathy. Treatment may involve medicines, surgery, nonsurgical procedures, and lifestyle changes.
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BTW Johnny, I treat type 2 diabetics everyday. When we put them on Biguanide therapy or thiazolinedione therapy (look it up genius), we are improving insulin sensitivity and decreasing gluconeogenesis. I have patients who have exercised and lost weight. Hell, I give you that a few have gotten off all meds and are diet controlled. However, I have some African American patient's who are as lean Adonis who are diabetics. However, they have parents who were both diabetics. We control their disease with diet, exercise and oral meds (usually of the classes above). Thus, do not think that I just overlook lifestyle when it comes to diabetics. Once again, you make blanket statements about MD's without ever speaking to one. I am an athlete; I want my patient's to exercise. However, to deny the existence of type 2 diabetes in non obese individuals is fallacy.
http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD023612.html
Educate yourself my GNC spouting friend.
You're AWESOME Nicole!
Way to go online, and DESTROY people with your knowledge! Then, when you bashed him with the GNC reference.....it was just dead on perfect.
You're a physician, you should be embarassed with your attitude here. How long have you been a physician? I would bet that you're still in your fellowship. You're an ER doc, right? Do you bring that same attitude to the needy patients you see? I bet you "own" every mother who incorrectly diagnoses her son, right? How DARE they try to talk to a medical doctor about medicine?
"If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot."
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I must admit, that the issue of case numbers (or more pertinently the lack thereof) does pose somewhat of a bugbear for myself
When we navigate around the piss weak 'oh, trust me, in 20 years time you will see thousands of dead guys' canard so oft employed by the anti steroid brigade, there really isnt much to see
Sensible steroid use isnt dangerous
GH? well, that has been commonplace for at least 20 years
Insulin/IGF, 10+ years
Where are the MOUNTAINS of dead guys?
I think the anti gang really do need to bring the real world case studies to the table, rather than the stock in trade scaremongering that has been the main tool for the last six decades
Christ, it wouldnt even be so bad if they had the honour to admit they were wrong about steroids, much less sweeping that defeat under the carpet and moving onto [with the same old 'wait and see' canard] GH and IGF/Insulin
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You're AWESOME Nicole!
Way to go online, and DESTROY people with your knowledge! Then, when you bashed him with the GNC reference.....it was just dead on perfect.
You're a physician, you should be embarassed with your attitude here. How long have you been a physician? I would bet that you're still in your fellowship. You're an ER doc, right? Do you bring that same attitude to the needy patients you see? I bet you "own" every mother who incorrectly diagnoses her son, right? How DARE they try to talk to a medical doctor about medicine?
"If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot."
Wrong again my friend. I am double board certified and have been out for some time. Moreover I am a nephrologist and when people like Johnny make blanket statements that are false or wrong, I need to correct him. Certainly, I have openly admitted that obesity is a risk factor, but he totally ignores genetics. Never once did he acknowledge the Pima Indian's and their genetic risk. He makes a blanket statement that they would not be diabetic if they lifted weights; that is completely asinine and false. They will always be diabetic; they may be able to control it with diet and exercise but as soon as they slip they will need meds again. Thus, I had to correct him because his pompousness and bashing of all Type 2 diabetics (read his posts bud and you will see his arrogant attitude) is appalling.
BTW Johnny, there are multiple college athletes with type 2 diabetes. Whether they control it with exercise, diet or meds is individual to individual. I literally can find hundreds of instances where athletes were type 2. For instance, renal or heart transplant patients can become diabetic from the immunosuppressive meds they are on. Think it is only because they are lazy. ::) You make false blanket statements that are erroneous. Your complete and utter disrespect to all diabetics is appalling.
PI, why do you have to stick your nose in this thread. You are uninformed and clueless as Johnny. If you are an engineer, I would not sit here debating architectural design with you. Thus, for Johnny to debate me is like a one legged man entering an arse kicking contest; he is going to lose as he is totally uninformed. BTW, I correct soccer moms all the time when they are wrong and off base. ;D
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Finally Johnny and ETA PI, some more info for both of you. As I said before, 80-90% of type 2 diabetes have a weight problem and this, along with their genetic pre-disposition, cause them to become diabetic. You make the point that only 1 in 40000 college have type 2 diabetes. I counter that there are probably many more than that statistically speaking (and remember, not everyone publishes their health info online). I have never doubted that weight loss and exercise will help and possibly keep a patient off of meds. However, for you to state that type 2 diabetics are lazy and slothful 100% of the time is an issue I have. That is not true and I believe you at least owe an apology to approximately 1 million type 2 diabetics that are not obese and slothful. The reason, there are over 15 million type 2 diabetics in this country. If 90 percent are obese or overweight, that means 10 percent or so are not.
Also, if over 50 percent of American or overweight or obese, we would have over 150 million diabetics going by your reasoning. So, although I agree to a point to what you are stating, you have completely disregarded the genetic component of this disease. Now, as above, I concur if you exercise and lose weight the long term side effects will be markedly diminished. However, being overweight and slothful are not the main risk factors.
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then why are you working at GNC?
haahahahahahahah He sold a Gold Card and now he thinks he is Ronnie Coleman.
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So anyway....someone measured jim quinns bodyfat at 0.0% .......flex wheeler, right??
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Very cool avatar Adonis. ;D
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Wrong again my friend. I am double board certified and have been out for some time. Moreover I am a nephrologist and when people like Johnny make blanket statements that are false or wrong, I need to correct him. Certainly, I have openly admitted that obesity is a risk factor, but he totally ignores genetics. Never once did he acknowledge the Pima Indian's and their genetic risk. He makes a blanket statement that they would not be diabetic if they lifted weights; that is completely asinine and false. They will always be diabetic; they may be able to control it with diet and exercise but as soon as they slip they will need meds again. Thus, I had to correct him because his pompousness and bashing of all Type 2 diabetics (read his posts bud and you will see his arrogant attitude) is appalling.
BTW Johnny, there are multiple college athletes with type 2 diabetes. Whether they control it with exercise, diet or meds is individual to individual. I literally can find hundreds of instances where athletes were type 2. For instance, renal or heart transplant patients can become diabetic from the immunosuppressive meds they are on. Think it is only because they are lazy. ::) You make false blanket statements that are erroneous. Your complete and utter disrespect to all diabetics is appalling.
PI, why do you have to stick your nose in this thread. You are uninformed and clueless as Johnny. If you are an engineer, I would not sit here debating architectural design with you. Thus, for Johnny to debate me is like a one legged man entering an arse kicking contest; he is going to lose as he is totally uninformed. BTW, I correct soccer moms all the time when they are wrong and off base. ;D
I never debated you. I just stated that you should be embarassed for grandstanding here on a bodybuilding board. Give yourself a big pat on the back for dueling with non-physicians. Do you brag to other doctors about your ability to "own" people who aren't doctors on medical knowledge? Or would you feel silly in doing that? If the latter is true, then perhaps you should tone it down a notch.....
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Very cool avatar Adonis. ;D
The Squad needs a medical doctor.
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I concur with nicorulez on many points. However, we do need to keep focus on the obesity epidemic and its relation to the rising # of type II diabetics...especially the rising # of juvenille type II diabetics. Obesity is the single largest risk factor for diabetes and over 90% of type II diabetics are overweight/obese. 30% of the U.S. population is now obese.
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I concur with nicorulez on many points. However, we do need to keep focus on the obesity epidemic and its relation to the rising # of type II diabetics...especially the rising # of juvenille type II diabetics. Obesity is the single largest risk factor for diabetes and over 90% of type II diabetics are overweight/obese. 30% of the U.S. population is now obese.
John,
If I am correct, you too are a medical doctor. How do you feel about someone from your profession looking down upon, and mocking people here on this board in a debate over a serious issue? Would it not be better for all individuals for those with greater education on a subject attempt to help those with less education, rather than try to prove just how much more educated they are?
The elitism from many doctors is embarassing to me.
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By the way, I appreciate your ability to post with insight, void of the grandstanding others would apply.
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I mean really....was jim quinn that ripped???
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Ba ha h ha!!!! Yeah buddy! One Advil jpg and more than a handful of you meltdown…LOL!
For the record, it was not intended at Anthony, may he rest in peace. As others who “get it” have already explained, it was a simple metaphor for the denial/”cover up” that was sure to come, after yet one more gear related death. ::)
how would you have felt if somebody posted this in a Billy Carp thread?
you have no class
E
I could give a rat’s ass what anyone says about Billy on this forum, where it is mandatory to say shit just to get a rise out of people. You come to expect it. I know why Billy passed away. I know what type of person he was. Nothing an anonymous person on this board says, can change that.
The biggest asshole on the board posts this shit upon someones passing. Fucken asshole.
I think I'll save this jpg and hope I see a day ( very soon ) when I will have a chance to post it in a thread for Scott's boy.
The Beef
Ha ha ha ha…I own you so bad it’s comical. Newsflash…when I die, there will surely be a long line of happy people. That means nothing to me as long as I have the love of my friends and family.
Mindspin, you are a little homo. What do you expect from a guy who never won a title to speak of who thinks he is better than Steve Reeves was.
Well, it’s the 2nd time you’ve made that accusation, and I will again correct you. Never once have I compared myself to the legendary Steve Reeves (where are you getting this ??? ). At my best, I never came close to achieving anything resembling his amazing physique.
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I cant believe you guys went nuts over the advil thing. We all know what that means around here..........spin could beat reeves tho. ;D
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If I die cause I was drinking and got behind the wheel of my car and crashed ..please someone put up an Advil pic!!!
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Ba ha h ha!!!! Yeah buddy! One Advil jpg and more than a handful of you meltdown…LOL!
For the record, it was not intended at Anthony, may he rest in peace. As others who “get it” have already explained, it was a simple metaphor for the denial/”cover up” that was sure to come, after yet one more gear related death. ::)
I could give a rat’s ass what anyone says about Billy on this forum, where it is mandatory to say shit just to get a rise out of people. You come to expect it. I know why Billy passed away. I know what type of person he was. Nothing an anonymous person on this board says, can change that.
Ha ha ha ha…I own you so bad it’s comical. Newsflash…when I die, there will surely be a long line of happy people. That means nothing to me as long as I have the love of my friends and family.
Well, it’s the 2nd time you’ve made that accusation, and I will again correct you. Never once have I compared myself to the legendary Steve Reeves (where are you getting this ??? ). At my best, I never came close to achieving anything resembling his amazing physique.
If you're daughter died of an Advil overdose would you mind if someone posted that Advil pic? You crossed the line - you know you did. Don't try and weasel out of it now.
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Sarcasms posted lots of pic's of cucumbers in his ass......Im sure someones died of cucumberitis and took it personal. We dont walk on eggshells around here.
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If you're daughter died of an Advil overdose would you mind if someone posted that Advil pic? You crossed the line - you know you did. Don't try and weasel out of it now.
Weasel out of it... ::) I've made no apologies and stand by my post. Bodybuilding is on par with any other type of dangerous "sport". If a mountain climber slips and falls to his death, it's the risk he took. Only difference is, it won't be blamed on "pre existing conditions".
Oh, and if anyone in my family decides to pump mass quantities of male hormones into their body, to the point where is causes a major organ shut down, trust me, I won't be blaming it on "pre existing conditions". So, there would be no need for the Advil jpg...
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John,
If I am correct, you too are a medical doctor. How do you feel about someone from your profession looking down upon, and mocking people here on this board in a debate over a serious issue? Would it not be better for all individuals for those with greater education on a subject attempt to help those with less education, rather than try to prove just how much more educated they are?
The elitism from many doctors is embarassing to me.
I am only making a point that I am very passionate about. 47% of all dialysis patients in this country are there because of diabetes. Yes, shootfighter is correct that 90% are overweight, however I have over 200 dialysis patients (about 100 with diabetes). I would say quite confidently that at least 10-15 of these patients are not your typical overweight slots. In fact, one was an ex-college football star and is in no way overweight. I have chronic kidney disease patient's with diabetes; many are not grossly overweight. Some in fact are quite thin. Johnny gets on this board and essentially bashes anybody who is a type 2 diabetic. He calls them lazy, slothful and obese. His arrogance and attitude are astonishing. I tried to point out initially that genetics were a major cause also. He essentially shot me down without even addressing the issue. Thus, I had to call him out and show him the truth. PI, sometimes when you make a point you have to drive it home. Most of my colleagues could give a rat's ass that I post on GetBig. The majority of physicians I work with do not even practice what they preach. Thus, it is not an issue. I don't go about ragging on individuals on this board. I try to educate to the best of my ability. The arrogance of this schmoe, however, pissed me off. Thus, I essentialy emasculated him on a message board. Sorry that I was not overly professional, but even our Senators and Congressman go off at times. I apologize if I offended you. However, what I stated was the truth. I never denied the fact that obesity is rampant. Look at my previous post about how 50% if Americans are overweight. I just tried to educate the masses that being fat and lazy is not the only risk factor.
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Johnny, yes I am a physician and I do work out. In fact, I stress diet, exercise and weight loss to all of my patients. However, I agree with you that most physicians do not practice what they preach; it does piss me off to see a physician smoke for instance. However, I believe you are mistaking something grossly; medical science does not make blanket statements without scientific proof. For instance, over 50% if Pima Indians are diabetic; this has been proven over and over again. There is a known genetic basis for this. Type 2 Diabetes has an exceedingly high genetic basis; thus, if your mom had it you are at increased risk. Blacks are known to be at increased risk to be hypertensive; this has nothing to do with their conditioning. There are genetic basis for both hypertension and diabetes. Now, you use testosterone and only test. Let us see, do you honestly think that if you run of the threadmill for thirty minutes a day it would prevent the negative cholesterol side effects. The answer is no. Also, exercise only decreases a patient's cholesterol by 15-20% max. This has been studied. Even world class athletes are on lipitor or zocor. There is definitely a genetic basis. Here is a linky for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9537421
Now, let us say you dabble in GH. You don't believe that an adult male with normal GH levels who takes in far more than is physiologically necessary will have side effects. Yes, long term studies are few and far between, but when kids who take just a enough GH to boost growth (miniscule compared to pro BB) have an increased risk for diabetes that should raise your eyebrows. GH does cause diabetes and I gurantee that if professional BB's who abused GH took routine bloodwork; this would come out. BTW, even if an athlete has hypertension or diabetes do you really think they would let anyone but their physicians and immediate family to know. No way as they are making a living doing this stuff.
Finally, do roids cause liver cancer? Well, once again you are uninformed. Alzado did not die of AIDS. He had a brain tumor. Did steroids contribute to this. We will never know, although I am sure they did not exactly slow down the cancer. However, anabolics (especially oral steroids which require two passes in the liver) can cause cirrhosis and cancer. Don't believe me, check out some links or just google it. There are numerous journal articles that show your ignorance. Word of mouth from your steroid dealers and buddies is not fact. In fact, most steroid abusers are so in the dark that it is actually quite scary that they would consider injecting or ingesting this stuff without medical supervision. It is stupid and dangerous. At least if you use, get a qualified physician who is not judgemental to test you. It is pretty easy. Well, here is the last link. Hope this clears up some of your misconceptions.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html
PI, here was my initial post to Johnny. I was anything but sarcastic. I made some valid points which he shot down without any insight. He essentially bashed all doctors as being ignorant. Thus, I had to respond.
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My only problem is, whenever there is a death in the bodybuilding community, it almost seems like there is a cover up as to what happened to the deceased(s) in questions. Sometime, it's very obvious, but nobody wants to come out and say it like it is. regardless, we always gonna ask questions why such and such die at a young age, and why that person(s) which was supposed to be healthy die so young. It's time to say it like it is.
I agree man. Thing is, not very many people want to speak out about it. They don't want to be called assholes for it.
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PI, here was my initial post to Johnny. I was anything but sarcastic. I made some valid points which he shot down without any insight. He essentially bashed all doctors as being ignorant. Thus, I had to respond.
Fair enough.
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I must admit, that the issue of case numbers (or more pertinently the lack thereof) does pose somewhat of a bugbear for myself
When we navigate around the piss weak 'oh, trust me, in 20 years time you will see thousands of dead guys' canard so oft employed by the anti steroid brigade, there really isnt much to see
Sensible steroid use isnt dangerous
GH? well, that has been commonplace for at least 20 years
Insulin/IGF, 10+ years
Where are the MOUNTAINS of dead guys?
I think the anti gang really do need to bring the real world case studies to the table, rather than the stock in trade scaremongering that has been the main tool for the last six decades
Christ, it wouldnt even be so bad if they had the honour to admit they were wrong about steroids, much less sweeping that defeat under the carpet and moving onto [with the same old 'wait and see' canard] GH and IGF/Insulin
Exactly, those are the real facts.. produce names nicorulz, you can't !!
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John,
If I am correct, you too are a medical doctor. How do you feel about someone from your profession looking down upon, and mocking people here on this board in a debate over a serious issue? Would it not be better for all individuals for those with greater education on a subject attempt to help those with less education, rather than try to prove just how much more educated they are?
The elitism from many doctors is embarassing to me.
Thats correct, skip the elitism...and PRODUCE NAMES !!
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This is getbig. Were not here to be educated. Throw your opinions out on this board, and wait for the attacks. ;D
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Johnny, now I know that you are espousing the use of AAS. While I cannot in good conscious agree with you, I will provide with a review article that compared weightlifters who used steroids vs those who did not. The steroid abusers had increased left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). If you know anything about cardiovascular risk profiles, LVH is considered a fairly strong risk factor for acute myocardial infarcts. I am not stating that all bodybuilders who use get LVH or heart disease. I just believe that the cavalier attitude that some of you have is irresponsible and plain foolish. Thus, if you continue to inject unknown substances (yes, the steroids from Mexico are not always legit), at least get tested to make sure your system is doing alright. I am not denouncing steroids; they are a drug that has clinical uses in the right setting. However, the amount that national level and professional bodybuilders is akin to the five hundred pound junk food junkie in a candy shop; she can't eat only one (she probably also has type 2 diabetes ;D). Thus, I honestly believe that a controlled cycle with medical supervision is probably much less dangerous than smoking or drinking heavily daily. However, I fear that young athletes and pro bb do not always exercise such caution and abuse the drug. Any drug, even Advil ;) is very dangerous when used inappropriately. So, I am not necessarily arguing with you, I am just advocating caution and the need to educate ones self about the potential risks.
http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/90/5/473
http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/anabolicsteroids3.html
This last article although not definitive is interesting; look at what the medical examiner had to say. All I can say is to be careful if you use. If you refuse to believe me and something bad happens, do not say you had no idea.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2004-03-12-wrestling-list_x.htm
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Eh Johnny, I guess I produced a couple of names. Why would a twenty something die of a heart attack otherwise. Oh well, you will continue to believe what you want. Take care my friend and get your liver enzymes checked.
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I just want to point out that GH has NOT been common place for 20 + years. Yes it was being used by few...very few compared to the majority of BB's. Around 86 or so a kid I knew had been prescribed Genentec gh for growth...somewhere around 87 he began selling it to SOME BB's in the NY area....they would use a very small amount compared to today....It was so uncommon in NY gyms at that time.and very difficult to get...Very few insurance co would pay for it and many pharms didn't even hold it. Then the russian gh got a bit popular and then gh started popping up all over. When a person uses so much that acromegaly begins that's very unhealthy. The skeletal changes are not the only thing going on...the heart is growing abnormally large and the chamber size decreases with increased thickness of the walls. Anyway, I would say that GH has been a normal part of a competitors program for the past 15 years, but the doses got way way out of hand maybe the past 10 for most people....Around the time "wasting and aids " studies with 18 iu became popular. Don Cotler at St.Lukes is the doc that lead most GH and wasting studies.
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Interesting article from a world expert. It is interesting that when you slammed Adam Empire about his point that steroids could worsen glucose tolerance, you were wrong. It does increase glucose intolerance. Believe it or not Johnny, you and your steroid abusing friends who refuse to at least admit the risk are wrong. Whether there are more deaths that can be directly related, don't you at least admit that taking a hormone, any hormone, in quantities far in excess of what your body produces naturally is not healthy. Have you ever heard of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. It is easily shut down by external hormones.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Dermatology/Steroids/tb/729
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Now granted, this is from an anti-steroid website, but it is run by people who are athletes. Believe what you will Johnny. Woten, i agree that a lot of things are overblown, but you seem to be disregarding the mountain of clinical evidence that points to the dangers of steroids/GH etc. Granted, there are few if any clinical studies as anabolic steroids as used by athletes are illegal. Thus, it is mostly case reports. However, why else would seemingly healthy twenty and thirty year old individuals die of cardiovascular failure. I put two and two together and assume the juice at least played a part.
http://www.athletesagainststeroids.org/pgs/steroiddeaths.shtml
While I completely disagree with Munzer and Momo (they died of diuretics), what I found most interesting is that some of these athletes committed suicide. Anabolics are associated not only with roid rage but depression. Thus, maybe we should not only consider physiological adverse effects but emotional/psychiatric ones also.
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I am only making a point that I am very passionate about. 47% of all dialysis patients in this country are there because of diabetes. Yes, shootfighter is correct that 90% are overweight, however I have over 200 dialysis patients (about 100 with diabetes). I would say quite confidently that at least 10-15 of these patients are not your typical overweight slots. In fact, one was an ex-college football star and is in no way overweight. I have chronic kidney disease patient's with diabetes; many are not grossly overweight. Some in fact are quite thin. Johnny gets on this board and essentially bashes anybody who is a type 2 diabetic. He calls them lazy, slothful and obese. His arrogance and attitude are astonishing. I tried to point out initially that genetics were a major cause also. He essentially shot me down without even addressing the issue. Thus, I had to call him out and show him the truth. PI, sometimes when you make a point you have to drive it home. Most of my colleagues could give a rat's ass that I post on GetBig. The majority of physicians I work with do not even practice what they preach. Thus, it is not an issue. I don't go about ragging on individuals on this board. I try to educate to the best of my ability. The arrogance of this schmoe, however, pissed me off. Thus, I essentialy emasculated him on a message board. Sorry that I was not overly professional, but even our Senators and Congressman go off at times. I apologize if I offended you. However, what I stated was the truth. I never denied the fact that obesity is rampant. Look at my previous post about how 50% if Americans are overweight. I just tried to educate the masses that being fat and lazy is not the only risk factor.
I NEVER used the words LAZY-SLOTHFUL-OBESE !! SO dont say I did.. This whole discussion started because I stated that BB's enjoy freedom from type-2 diabetes because of resistance training.. So what do you do ? You send me a fucking link that talks about children using GH, !! And the link says that the risks are very low anyway !!(DUH)... THen you send me a few links of athletes with TYPE 1, (are you retarded ?) which has nothing to do with what we were talking about !! and you act like you owned me.
Then you call me "Stud" "Big-Boy" etc. All I asked for was the name of ONE (1) ACTUAL BB that is
TYPE 2 !!
ANd you sat there MUTE !!!! Like Helen Keller !! RESISTANCE TRAINING outweighs GH as far as insulin sensitivity !!
As far as the PIMA indians, I conceed that point to you, but what the f**k does that have to do with BB in the United States ?? Nothing !!
Your'e the assclown that seems to want to put all your patients on pharmaceuticals, while I want them to exercise & eat right. But you simultaneously attack me for being "PRO-DRUGS", simply because I stated that the risks of AAS as it realtes to Type-2 diabetes are overstated.. You have no idea where I stand on the drug issue, and it shows in your comments. YOU are the person that is "PRO-DRUGS" and you can't even see it
I NEVER said diabetics were LAZY-OBESE-SLOTHFUL (SLOTHFUL ?_ did you just get done watching the movie "7" or something ?) WHat the typical diabetic's problem is a lack of knowledge, and a feeling of defeat, because you guys keep telling them it's NOT their fault, it's GENETICS !!
You have got to hit them with the TRUTH !! Or they will NEVER beat their DIABETES,
it just becomes a slow death..
I don't care if you're an MD or not !! The TRUTH is that If both you & I were given 10 patients with the chronic illnesses, I would cure more of them than you would !! Because the medical community AINT CURING ANYBODY of the chronics !!
10 years from now your 10 patients would still be coming to you for Fosamax, Lipitor, Insulin, Glucophage !
As far as me being arrogant...You are CORRECT !! I AM !!
When it comed to LIFE & FUCKING DEATH of an idividual, the TRUTH must be told.
I know you are not used to people "talking back" to you, being that you are an MD.
But when you bump up against someone that has an equal understanding of the disease & cure,
you are no longer a sacred cow.. So get used to it.
RESISTANCE TRAING CURES TYPE 2 !!!
You do have alot of good information, I appreciate your knowledge...I TRULY DO !!
NOBODY KNOWS IT ALL !!
The bottom line, and final statement I will make on this subject is that all your talk about BB becoming diabetic was HORSESHIT !! Because you haven't produced a single name..
I am done with this because we are just going in circles..
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Nicorulez....the second article (the one that states that some users use because of a past history of sexaul abuse) is f--- ridiculous...and the next one (mentioning the wreslers) is just pathetic and sensationalism at it's best. I wrestle, know the industry very well and can tell you that what is killing pro wrestlers is PAIN KILLERS!!!! That's it...the bottom line...those guys, bless them, have incredibly addictive personalities. The drugs commonly prescribed at ER every day are more dangorous then a couple cc of testosterone or deca durabolin can ever be. My wife went to the ER the other day for what she believd was an allergic reaction....after figuring out it was simply some abdominal pain from a period they prescribed her pain drugs, hahah, what a joke. Now I respect doctors 100%, but the drugs that are ruining society are the ones prescribed everyday such as depression, anxiety and pain drugs and the whole world is getting addicted. I have friends that are so addicted to these things and walk around LEGALLY high every hour of the day. They are no different than the guy on the corner looking for a fix, but they got a few dollars in their pocket and a job so no one notices. With that said I DO know for a fact that steroids and gh and all other BB drugs are potentially dangerous and are hurting many uneducated people and young kids today. Abuse is out of hand. As a docter, however, I think you should look more carefully to the articles you use as an example and perhaps look to studies with normal amounts of testosterone in the New England Journal Of Medicine or a Dr.Rudman (sp) on gh (normal amounts) studies. A book was written over 25 years ago by Dr. Golman and Dr. Rudman called "Death in the locker room" speaking from a one sided view on the dangers of steroids and GH. Wouldn't you know it that Dr. Rudman would go on to co author a book called "grow young with HGH" 20 years later speaking of the benifits of gh use. Research my doctor friend, research.
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Legbreaker, I could care less about the reason why people use steroids, the initial author succinctly summarizes the known risks about anabolic steroids. Whether you wish to believe them is your deal. All I know, if you abuse and get liver failure, liver cysts or cardiovascular disease; don't blame the messenger. I am just pointing out the physiological facts. However, the psychological effects of steroids are also well known. As for the anti-aging, you need to read as it refers to the elderly who have lost their natural GH. I am talking about twenty and thirty year old BB who are taking super-physiological doses to improve athletic performance. Big difference. Trust me legbreaker, I read a lot and know this issue well. In no way would a legitimate doctor of medicine endorse young men taking Gh to improve performance; not an ethical doc anyway.
Now Johnny, you get a fight for nothing. I never once stated that the BB lifestyle makes you diabetic. I stated that a bodybuilder who abused GH (as Anthony may have well done), would have put himself at risk for diabetes. It has nothing to do with weightlifting and exercise; it is the drug that has that known side effect. That is all. I concur with you 100% that weight loss and exercise are vitally important. At least read my threads before thinking I am a pill dispenser. The first thing I tell all my patient's to do with glucose intolerance is go on a low glycemic diet with lots of fiber, low cholesterol and saturated fat. I then tell them to start walking (you have to see my patients and understand that running is not feasible) 3 times a week initially and gradually increase to daily exercise of 30-60 minutes daily.
I once again tell all of my obese patient's who are obese that it is worsening their diabetes without a doubt. My issue with you is that you characterized all type 2 diabetics as such. You are plain wrong. Understand this. Go read a medical journal or research it on Google. Ninety percent are indeed overweight or obese but 10 percent (over 1000000 type 2 diabetics) are not obese. Thus, this puts the genetics issue into play. Once again, if being fat and eating high glycemic foods was the only risk, then over 150 million Americans would be diabetic as that is the percentage who are overweight. Obviously, there is something more to it than just obesity. I feel that you have a genetic predisposition and if you do not exercise and gain weight, you are more likely to manifest the disease. Is that simple enough for you? Also, resistance training does not cure diabetes; nothing does. Diabetes can be controlled; it can be controlled so well you do not need meds. However, if that same person stopped, he would become glucose intolerant and diabetic again.
Here is a synopsis of the Human genome project and their work with diabetes;
http://darwin.nmsu.edu/~molbio/diabetes/disease.html
You may dismiss it but a lot of scientist much brighter than you and I are working on it actively. So, although you think you are an expert, you are actually very misinformed. However, I am sure the hundreds of testimonials that you have heard at GNC supplant all of the clinical evidence that has been compiled.
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Legbreaker, your good Dr. Rudman was summarily dismissed by researchers at UCSF (one of the finest medical institutions in the world). Guess for the elderly, GH is not the fountain of youth. Not surprising.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990DE2D81139F936A25757C0A960958260
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The number one factor to longevity (aging only) is genetics. I do not believe that Gh would increase the number of years a person lives, but maintaining normal physiological levels along with lifestyle modifications will make one live a life with more quality. Their are many many other factors that lend itself to ones health and longevity; diet, lifestyle, stress, illness, etc. As a doc, what do ya gotta say about the number of pain drugs prescribed today, the number of pain managment clinics popping up all over the place to provide atticks a way to continue use and their association with addiction and death? What about the enormously increasing supply of behavior drugs and their addiction rate.
Steroids are a problem among youth and abused in BB...but this is a pharmaceutical society we live in from adolesence on....I think doctors got to stop prescribing these drugs so easily and maybe the addictive personality's will decline with new generations.
While your finding research papers look up Bob Delmonteque......He's spoken many times on GH, aging, hormones and quality of live issues. He's around 84 and looks better than most 22 year olds. Reasonable use and health....NOT abuse.
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Legbreaker, your good Dr. Rudman was summarily dismissed by researchers at UCSF (one of the finest medical institutions in the world). Guess for the elderly, GH is not the fountain of youth. Not surprising.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990DE2D81139F936A25757C0A960958260
I need to correct the man involved with both books...Ronald Klatz (Death in the Locker room and grow young with hgh...I just looked at them and realized my error.
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I could give a rat’s ass what anyone says about Billy on this forum, where it is mandatory to say shit just to get a rise out of people. You come to expect it. I know why Billy passed away. I know what type of person he was. Nothing an anonymous person on this board says, can change that.
sure you wouldn't have cared it's probably easier to say that now after he's been dead for a while and you've accepted he's gone
it would've bothered you if somebody posted a comment like that the day of his death don't deny it
what was the official cause of death anyways?
E
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Legbreaker, I am a nephrologist. I don't advocate NSAID abuse at all for any of my patient's. First, I tell them that the reason a lot of them have knee and back pain is their obesity. Thus, if they diet and exercise, they would do better. Moreover, chronic NSAIDs kill the kidney; look at Tom Prince. BTW, I agree that one article about the wrestlers is sensationalistic, but NSAIDS did not cause early cardiovascular disease You can be guaranteed three things. The patient was genetically pre-disposed (I know Johnny hates that word). His diet was probably not the healthiest. Finally, the abuse of steroids is associated with dyslipidemia, liver disease, and early atherogenesis. Thus, they were walking cardiovascular risk takers and their time came early.
My biggest fault with the logic of some on this board is that they think doctors prescribe way to many pills. In a sense, I agree and try to minimize or compartmentalize their medical regimen. However, these same people who state that all you need is diet and exercise are willing to stick a black-market non-pharmeceutical grade hormone (usually vet grade) into their ass. This is twisted logic to the nth degree. Moreover, they don't even get their liver enzymes or cholesterol while cycling. Thus, my beef. ;)
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Eh Johnny, I guess I produced a couple of names. Why would a twenty something die of a heart attack otherwise. Oh well, you will continue to believe what you want. Take care my friend and get your liver enzymes checked.
I asked you to PRODUCE THE NAME of a BB that is Type-2 diabetic !!!!
And you mail me a link that talks about HEART ATTACKS !!
Should you & I split the cost of a translator ??
I NEVER said steroids were safe !! IN fact-The VERY FIRST POST I Made on this thread STARTED off by presenting the PARADOX of BB getting heart attack-but practically NEVER becoming TYPE-2 Diabetic !!
BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat. It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.
2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.
As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit. BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin.. Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.
You KNow, BOTH of us have mis-read each others posts. AND . BOTH of us have made unfair assumptions about each other. (without really knowing anything about each other). NOBODY knows it all !!
If we were in the same room discussing this-We probably wouldn't dis-agree very much at all !
ON ALL of these topics- We probably are alot closer than what appears to be.
I do respect you, because you actually CARE !!
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Steroids work and they work well, which is why they are so widespread in bodybuilding and so many other sports.
The trouble is, it is becoming increasingly apparent that long-term use seems to be a risk factor for several major and potentially fatal medical conditions.
Everybody thinks they will do 'just one cycle' or 'just a few,' but 90% of the people I have known that went in with those intentions wound up cycling on and off for anywhere from five to twenty years.
And without a wife and kids to give you a compelling reason to stay healthy and live to a ripe old age, it's easy to ignore the risks and just keep juicing for years and years.
This is so true. When you're on you don't want to loose that look, even though you know it's artificial. Long time ago I said just 1 cycle. Good thing I got married, had a family and started a business because the mental addiction is as strong as anything I've ever encountered and I've tried it all. You can never keep all you made while on, but you can train your ass off, eat clean and supplement wisely. That's the only way I can ever do it now. I know if I go back to the "dark side" I might never want to return.
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sure you wouldn't have cared it's probably easier to say that now after he's been dead for a while and you've accepted he's gone
it would've bothered you if somebody posted a comment like that the day of his death don't deny it
what was the official cause of death anyways?
E
You must have missed the negative posts on his RIP thread. It did not bother me one bit. And, although I could have deleted them, chose not to. As I said, I know what type of person Billy was...
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Johnny, now I know that you are espousing the use of AAS. While I cannot in good conscious agree with you, I will provide with a review article that compared weightlifters who used steroids vs those who did not. The steroid abusers had increased left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). If you know anything about cardiovascular risk profiles, LVH is considered a fairly strong risk factor for acute myocardial infarcts. I
Nicole,
Don't group LVH with Cardiomyopathy. You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's. The only link between LVH (which is what AAS would cause, I think we can agree that LVH from androgen usage is entirely different than a cardiomyopathic HOCM or IHSS) and increased incident of MI's is the increased need for coronary blood flow to feed the increased LV thickness. This would more than likely be offset by the increased funcional capacity of the heart from the increased exercise patterns of the AAS user.
You have the ability to educate the readers here, as well as yourself with the information at your fingertips.
Keep the focus on the real risks. Dyslipidemia being one that actually is a potentially serious risk of AAS usage.
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RIP
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rip
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Nicole,
Don't group LVH with Cardiomyopathy. You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's. The only link between LVH (which is what AAS would cause, I think we can agree that LVH from androgen usage is entirely different than a cardiomyopathic HOCM or IHSS) and increased incident of MI's is the increased need for coronary blood flow to feed the increased LV thickness. This would more than likely be offset by the increased funcional capacity of the heart from the increased exercise patterns of the AAS user.
You have the ability to educate the readers here, as well as yourself with the information at your fingertips.
Keep the focus on the real risks. Dyslipidemia being one that actually is a potentially serious risk of AAS usage.
Dude, you are officially a dipshit. LVH is most certainly a risk for cardiovascular events. This has been well established by numerous medical literature. Obviously, you are clueless; you are certainly not a medical specialist (MD, nurse, PA etc). At least Johnny has a very good understanding of the workings of Type 2 diabetes. You have not been doing your reading. Moreover, Dr. PI, a bodybuilder would be at markedly increased risk because the calibur of his coronary arteries would be narrowed from the marked dyslipidemia and pro-atherogenic nature of anaolics. Do some reading before you make false blanket statement. BTW, cardiomyopathy and LVH are mutually exclusive; they are in no way related unless you are talking Hypertrophic Obstructive CM which is associated with septal wall thickness which is different from usual LVH.
http://www.who.int/cardiovascular_diseases/en/cvd_atlas_03_risk_factors.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1838817&dopt=Abstract
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/heartbk/3.pdf
Dumbass, by the way when did I ever equate LVH with cardiomyopathy. You are a complete and utter fool. My article noted by assoication that steroid users had unexplained LVH. Where the hell does cardiomyopathy come out of that. For you, I will be totally arrogant as I am obviously talking to a high schooler with at best a grade school education. Get out of this thread unless you have something useful to add.
Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts. We are cool. Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes. We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight. Peace.
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Here is another link for you genius. ::) ::) ::)
http://cordis.europa.eu/data/PROJ_BIOMED/ACTIONeqDndSESSIONeq12805200595ndDOCeq5ndTBLeqEN_PROJ.htm
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Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts. We are cool. Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes. We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight. Peace.
COOL ! Let me ask you a question. I met a very smart nutritional research doctor at you know where (GNC) a few months ago. I wish I could remember his name. I was frustrated that HBP patients don't seem to told about "arginine" by their MD's. So I took him by the hand and walked him to the arginine on the shelf and said to him "Tell me, is this (arginine) not the BEST stuff out for HBP ?" He thought aminute and said "Yes, Yes it is". I asked him why more Doctors don't recommend it. He told me that their hands are tied on sometning like that. He told me that some doctors use supplemements that they are NOT able to actually recommend.
He even went on to tell me he was involved in the original arginine / nitric oxide studies about 10 years ago.
Is that because if the MD recommends "Arginine", and Not meds, and the patient has a stroke, it is an easy lawsuit against the doctor. I wondered what your experience or thoughts on this matter.
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Johnny, good point. There has recently been some news about L-Arginine in the medical literature. Now you are correct, L-Arginine is supposedly a pre-cursor to increased NO levels, which would supposedly relax the vasculature (thus decreasing blood pressure). However, a study done in patients who took the supplement after a heart attack actually did worse. The reason is not really known. I would think if you are a healthy individual, it would not hurt. However, Dr. Katz from Yale University admitted you have to take like 40 capsules to get the desired effect. In theory it should work; I wonder if we are just not getting the greatest benefit because of the high dose needed to make a perceptible difference.
Linky:
http://www.henryfordhealth.org/148209.cfm
I think your friend is smart. If a doctor gave a patient L-Arginine instead of a proven med like a Beta Blocker or ACE inhibitor which has been studied up the Yahoo, if there were an adverse outcome he would likely lose his license and maybe even shirt (malpractice sucks).
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The best thing for a non medicated person to use nutritionally is Hawthorn Berry...works just like ace inhibitors....very safe, no sides, no long term risks, just benifits.
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Dude, you are officially a dipshit. LVH is most certainly a risk for cardiovascular events. This has been well established by numerous medical literature. Obviously, you are clueless; you are certainly not a medical specialist (MD, nurse, PA etc). At least Johnny has a very good understanding of the workings of Type 2 diabetes. You have not been doing your reading. Moreover, Dr. PI, a bodybuilder would be at markedly increased risk because the calibur of his coronary arteries would be narrowed from the marked dyslipidemia and pro-atherogenic nature of anaolics. Do some reading before you make false blanket statement. BTW, cardiomyopathy and LVH are mutually exclusive; they are in no way related unless you are talking Hypertrophic Obstructive CM which is associated with septal wall thickness which is different from usual LVH.
http://www.who.int/cardiovascular_diseases/en/cvd_atlas_03_risk_factors.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1838817&dopt=Abstract
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/heartbk/3.pdf
Dumbass, by the way when did I ever equate LVH with cardiomyopathy. You are a complete and utter fool. My article noted by assoication that steroid users had unexplained LVH. Where the hell does cardiomyopathy come out of that. For you, I will be totally arrogant as I am obviously talking to a high schooler with at best a grade school education. Get out of this thread unless you have something useful to add.
Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts. We are cool. Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes. We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight. Peace.
Can you post anything on your own knowlege, or do you have to post links to abstracts for everything you post?
YOU said that LVH is a risk factor for Atherosclerotic heart disease. YOU posed the link between LVH caused in part due to AAS usage as a strong risk factor. This LVH is NOT a strong risk for heart disease. This LVH is relatively benign.
I said that cardiomyopathy is a risk factor for heart disease, which is entirely different from LVH. You are grasping at straws trying to find a relation between AAS and heart disease in any avenue possible.
Obviously HOCM is different from LVH, as I WAS THE ONE MAKING THIS STATEMENT.
You are a nephrologist. Stick to that. Keep the cardiovascular system to those who know it.
Please, continue your arrogance, I'm having a good laugh.
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Here is another link for you genius. ::) ::) ::)
http://cordis.europa.eu/data/PROJ_BIOMED/ACTIONeqDndSESSIONeq12805200595ndDOCeq5ndTBLeqEN_PROJ.htm
HA HA HA!!!
You're own post contradicts your statements!
As quoted from YOUR LINK: "This is a central question, since to date there is no proof that LVH reduction is favorable, although many physicians and scientists accept this as a scientifically validated fact."
So, just like the study states, YOU accept the need to reduce LVH for the reduction of heart disease potential, despite there being NO PROOF TO DATE FOR THIS FACT!
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The fun continues!
Once again YOUR link proves your point moot! Here is another quote from your Pub-med "abstract" contradicting your points, and proving MY points.
"These results show that hypertensive patients with LVH, as a group, have others factors of risk, DIFFERENT FROM VENTRICULAR HYPERTROPHY, which favour the high cardiovascular morbidity-mortality of LVH group."
(the CAPS were my addition)
So......it's NOT the LVH that is a strong prognosticator of heart disease. LVH in the absence of other risk factors is a VERY MILD prognosticator of heart disease. The only real risk is increased oxygen consumption of the myocardium. But, in NORMAL coronary arteries, this is no risk at all, as there is plenty of blood flow available for LVH at any levels below severe.
Like I've been saying all along Nicole....AAS IS DANGEROUS. But, quit grasping at straws and trying to point out EVERY possiblity of it's misuse. Focus on the risk factors it creates that really DO have a strong potential for problems.
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Good discussion (even with the aggressive edge). Some of those article were very good, others sensational and more propagandaish. Education and knowledge is good for all here. Having a physician here giving info is a real plus. Yes, Pi, your correct.
What is the actual risk of liver cancer and liver cysts with AAS. I remember reading somewhere it was extremely low...yet it is cited in every article explaining major risks.
As far as GH REPLACEMENT (not pro BBer doses), the studies I have seen show an elevation in blood glucose in approx 15-20% of people, via insulin resistance. Only a fraction of those actually qualify for DM based on fasting glucose readings. Also, most studies don't examine long enough but that effect is often temporary. Many anti-aging docs have stated a large % of the patients who experience the elevated glucose only do so for several weeks to a couple months, then the levels regress. I have not heard GH replacement causing perminent diabetes in many people treated...if the elevation is severe or longstanding, the physician would certainly stop the drug. I imagine most of these cases would return to normal blood levels.
In the 5 people I have observed with Gh replacement, all have done exceptionally well. These are all individuals in their mid 40s and 50s.
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Good discussion (even with the aggressive edge). Some of those article were very good, others sensational and more propagandaish. Education and knowledge is good for all here. Having a physician here giving info is a real plus. Yes, Pi, your correct.
What is the actual risk of liver cancer and liver cysts with AAS. I remember reading somewhere it was extremely low...yet it is cited in every article explaining major risks.
As far as GH REPLACEMENT (not pro BBer doses), the studies I have seen show an elevation in blood glucose in approx 15-20% of people, via insulin resistance. Only a fraction of those actually qualify for DM based on fasting glucose readings. Also, most studies don't examine long enough but that effect is often temporary. Many anti-aging docs have stated a large % of the patients who experience the elevated glucose only do so for several weeks to a couple months, then the levels regress. I have not heard GH replacement causing perminent diabetes in many people treated...if the elevation is severe or longstanding, the physician would certainly stop the drug. I imagine most of these cases would return to normal blood levels.
In the 5 people I have observed with Gh replacement, all have done exceptionally well. These are all individuals in their mid 40s and 50s.
How supraphysiological are the doses with GH replacement?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11502767&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum
This study shows that in physiological doses of GH, insulin sensitivity improved after an initial decrease. Supraphysiological doses showed hyperglycemia though.
"In contrast, physiologic doses of GH ( approximately 1 mg/d) in HIV-negative men reduced visceral adiposity and eventually improved insulin sensitivity, despite initially causing insulin resistance."
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Great find. Exactly what the anti-aging docs were seeing.
What is 3mg/d? Thats a concentration but how does that convert to units?
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Great find. Exactly what the anti-aging docs were seeing.
What is 3mg/d? Thats a concentration but how does that convert to units?
I believe 6mg is roughly 18ius of GH. So, I guess 1mg is roughly 3ius, probably in the range of GH replacement therapy.
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Can you post anything on your own knowlege, or do you have to post links to abstracts for everything you post?
YOU said that LVH is a risk factor for Atherosclerotic heart disease. YOU posed the link between LVH caused in part due to AAS usage as a strong risk factor. This LVH is NOT a strong risk for heart disease. This LVH is relatively benign.
I said that cardiomyopathy is a risk factor for heart disease, which is entirely different from LVH. You are grasping at straws trying to find a relation between AAS and heart disease in any avenue possible.
Obviously HOCM is different from LVH, as I WAS THE ONE MAKING THIS STATEMENT.
You are a nephrologist. Stick to that. Keep the cardiovascular system to those who know it.
Please, continue your arrogance, I'm having a good laugh.
Moron, you talk out of your ass. I showed this thread to a cardiology friend and mine and laughed at your ignorance. LVH is a known risk for cardiovascular events including Myocardial infarctions. The last link I posted shows this. This is not some "out of I ETA Pi's" ass opinion; this is the opinion of the WHO. Now, you obviously have no medical background, except what you read on the internet. God forbid if you are a doctor, as you are more clueless than laymen. For one think LVH is completely different from cardiomyopathy. Cardiomyopathy is usually a pathologic condition. LVH can be a manifestation of chronic HTN. However, it is well established that LVH increases your risk for heart attacks, arrhythmias, etc. Now genius, follow with me. I will go very slowly for you so as not to confuse your easily distracted little mind.
If Anabolic steroids are a risk for LVH, it could be surmised as some scientists who study the matter that they may be a risk for early cardiovascular risk. Also, since it is well established that anabolic steroids cause dyslipidemia and are pro-atherogenic (that means they increase the atherosclerotic plaques on coronary arteries...if you need info on what coronary arteries are...it is easily found on the internest Ms. PTA). Thus, you have LVH which is associated with decreased venticular relaxation (diastole), increased blood requirements to feed the hypertrophied myocardium and smaller diameter coronaries because of the above increased atherogenesis. It does not take a hemodynamic expert to see that this would put your heart at risk for a heart attack, arrhythmia or even sudden death. Now, why don't you go back and read my links. Only clueless steroid abusing idiots like yourself cannot appreciate the facts.
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Dipshit, here is the whole article for your reading pleasure. I will outline some pertinent facts.
The Cardiac Hypertrophy Regression in Europe - effect on cardiovascular Risk : a surrogate outcome evaluation study and placebo-controlled prevention trial
General Project Information
Objectives: The CAHRE-Risk trial is designed to demonstrate that the reduction of left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) by a simple-to-use treatment which does not alter quality of life, offers a better control of cardiovascular future in high risk subjects, thus that electrocardiographically (ECG) defined LVH is a suitable surrogate endpoint.
General Information: Cardiovascular risk remains an important health public issue in developed countries, despite of the advancement of therapeutics. It is well established that (i) left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a risk factor for cardiovascular morbi-mortality (including myocardial infarction and stroke) and (ii) LVH is common, especially in hypertensive subjects. The predictive value of LVH for cardiovascular risk remains even after allowance for the other risk factors (including blood pressure), and also in treated hypertensives.
ACE decrease blood pressure, but how they affect cardiovascular risk associated with hypertension is not yet known. Some experimental data suggest that, in animal and in human, low-dose ACE inhibitors reduce LVH, independently of any effect on blood pressure. Thus, it is the choice treatment to test if LVH is a suitable surrogate end-point for reduced cadiovascular risk, i.e. if the control of LVH decreases cardiovascular risk. This is a central question, since to date there is no proof that LVH reduction is favorable, although many physicians and scientists accept this as a scientifically validated fact. A large randomized placebo-controlled clinical trial is the only way to test this assumption. The CAHRE-Risk trial will include 3200 controlled treated hypertensive subjects, with electrocardiography evidence of LVH, with wide inclusion criteria to ensure as much as possible the generalisability of the results. This is a randomized, placebo controlled, in parallel group trial, where patients will be included for a follow-up of five years. The main outcome combines cardiovascular morbi-mortality criteria, which expected incidence is 15% in the control group. The tested treatment is an angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor given at low-dose, to obtain a LVH regression irrespective of any antihypertensive effect. The expected relative risk reduction is of 25%, for a risk alpha of 5% and a power of 90%.
If you notice, even when they remove other risk factors for heart disease, LVH is still a an established risk factor. The quote you take is only stated, because a large randomized placebo controlled trial for at least five years has not been done. However, when leading cardiologists and hypertensive experts note its importance, the value of reducing LVH to minimize your cardiovascular risk is taken. Now you, master of steroids himself, and a completely non-medical person with the knowledge of a chimp refuses to admit this. The only people who will give you and credence are those dolts who are actively sticking a needle into their rump haphazardly and hope that all the medical naysayers are wrong. ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Mrs. PTA, here is a link from UPTODATE, the most widely respected and most clinically up to date (duh) web resource for medical professionals. Here is a snippet, if you want the who article, I will be happy to email you a word copy:
Norman M Kaplan, MD
Pamela S Douglas, MD
Burton D Rose, MD
UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 350 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 14.2 is current through April 2006; this topic was last changed on April 17, 2006. The next version of UpToDate (14.3) will be released in October 2006.
INTRODUCTION — Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a common finding in patients with fixed or borderline hypertension and can be diagnosed either by ECG or by echocardiography [1,2]. The latter is the procedure of choice, since the sensitivity of the different ECG criteria may be as low as 7 to 35 percent with mild LVH and only 10 to 50 percent with moderate to severe disease [3]. Nevertheless, if echocardiography is unavailable or too expensive, appropriate ECG criteria can be used to detect increased LV mass [4].
The clinical implications and therapy of LVH in hypertension will be reviewed here. The definition and pathogenesis of this complication in hypertensive patients are discussed separately. (See "Definition and pathogenesis of left ventricular hypertrophy in hypertension").
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS — The presence of LVH (on ECG or echocardiography) is important clinically because it is associated with increases in the incidence of heart failure, ventricular arrhythmias, death following myocardial infarction, decreased LV ejection fraction, sudden cardiac death, aortic root dilation, and a cerebrovascular event (show figure 1) [2,5-13]. One report, for example, compared 131 hypertensive patients without prior clinical evidence of heart disease who had experienced a cardiac arrest with 562 randomly selected hypertensives who served as controls [8]. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of sudden death was increased 40 percent by the presence of LVH (using electrocardiographic criteria), 70 percent by ischemic myocardial injury, and 80 percent by QT interval prolongation.
LVH diagnosed by echocardiography, which is much more sensitive than the ECG [14], also carries an increased risk for cardiac events (angina and myocardial infarction, heart failure, and serious ventricular arrhythmia) and cardiovascular deaths [7,10,12,15,16]. The range of findings is illustrated by the following observations:
Just from the intro, it is apparent that LVH (not cardiomyopathy which you are so completely confused about) is a significant risk for cardiovascular events (almost all of them). If you want the full article, I would gladly email it to you.
Here is some more:
Mechanisms for increased risk — The increased cardiac risk associated with LVH is probably due in part to myocardial ischemia that can be induced by a variety of factors. In hypertrophied myocardium, there is a reduced density of capillaries. Furthermore, the enlarged muscle mass limits the ability of the coronary arteries to dilate in response to decreased perfusion or during vasodilatory stress [9,17-19]; it may also directly compress the endocardial capillaries. Both of these factors can decrease coronary reserve and can have a number of important clinical implications.
* Coronary occlusion is associated with a greater degree of infarction and a higher mortality rate than seen in the absence of LVH [20,21]. The increased mortality associated with LVH is also seen in patients receiving thrombolytic therapy [22].
* The hypertrophied myocardium may be more susceptible than normal myocardium to the effects of ischemia. In a study of patients with sudden cardiac death, the patients with hypertension who died suddenly had less extensive coronary disease and were less likely to have thrombi in the coronary vessels than normotensives who died suddenly [23].
The development of heart failure with LVH results from depressed left ventricular systolic function and/or diastolic dysfunction. (See "Pathophysiology of diastolic heart failure"). The deleterious effect of left ventricular remodeling may be an important determinant of progression to overt heart failure [24]. (See "Cardiac remodeling: Basic aspects").
LVH also causes several electrophysiologic changes or electrical remodeling, including nonuniform action potential prolongation, altered repolarization and increased dispersion of recovery, and the easily provocable early afterpotentials, which are associated with an increased vulnerability to ventricular arrhythmias, especially torsade de pointes, and sudden death [25-28].
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Trust me, a nephrologist is intimately aware of the risk factors of all cardiac events as they are closely tied to renal function. Anybody in the medical profession knows that the heart and kidneys are inexorably linked. That is why one of my main jobs is blood pressure management of very difficult to control patients. What you have read about I have seen. I do not need an internet junkie who has a little info, but not the whole enchilada to belabor a point that is known fact. Believe what you want, you can shoot up as much testosterone as you want. I want to educate the other GetBiggers who are undecided about the risk. My point being that there is a lot more info (sometimes inferred) than you want to believe. At least if you use, do it wisely and get someone to monitor you. Is that such an absurd suggestion.
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More on Anthony
http://www.ergogenics.org/425.html
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Trust me, a nephrologist is intimately aware of the risk factors of all cardiac events as they are closely tied to renal function. Anybody in the medical profession knows that the heart and kidneys are inexorably linked. That is why one of my main jobs is blood pressure management of very difficult to control patients. What you have read about I have seen. I do not need an internet junkie who has a little info, but not the whole enchilada to belabor a point that is known fact. Believe what you want, you can shoot up as much testosterone as you want. I want to educate the other GetBiggers who are undecided about the risk. My point being that there is a lot more info (sometimes inferred) than you want to believe. At least if you use, do it wisely and get someone to monitor you. Is that such an absurd suggestion.
You just keep coming back for more, don't you.
The funniest thing is that you "showed this to a cardiology friend, and had a good laugh." I can just picture you showing your internet battle to a colleague! HA HA! I'm sure he wasn't embarassed for you at all.
You just keep using the same lines. I WAS THE ONE WHO SAID THAT CARDIOMYOPATHY WAS DIFFERENT. You said that LVH was a strong risk factor for heart disease. It is clearly not, as is evidenced by the articles YOU POSTED. Is LVH a risk factor? Of course. That is not up for debate. (Although you want to think that is still part of the debate, as that is all you can talk about). I'm asking you to focus on the real risks. You want to try to show some "nobodies" on the internet how much info you have been force fed. So, while the REAL risk factors of AAS use could be put out in the open, and discussed by some individuals in the medical field, you choose to cling to the hope that a few people won't be able to prove you wrong on a minor point.
Here are the facts as they stand. You are welcome to show this to all your cadiologist friends as well. (Please be sure to use the words "owned" and "flame war," I'm sure it will bring them closer to the heat of the battle)
LVH is a MILD risk factor for heart disease. Bring any patient to a cardiologist with LVH "caused" by AAS usage (so we're looking at roughly a 12mm myocardial thickness level), and see how concerned the cardiologist is of them having an MI.
Dyslipidemia, high BMI, high triglycerides, hyperhomocystemia, Diabetes, and OTHER risk factors that can arise from AAS use are a much more STRONG risk factor for heart disease.
Careful of that pebble in the road.....you don't want to wreck your car, dipshit.
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LVH is a significant risk factor for heart disease. Even knowing this previously, I looked up several additional studies and resources on how cardiac risk factors are weighed. One calculation put more weight on LVH than diabetes or smoking. However, I believe HTN is still the largest risk factor.
ventricular hypertrophy is good to increase heart function and cardiac output if its mild (many athletes) but as the wall size continues to increase past a certain point, more problems develop. Additionally, if the hypertrophy is asymmetric, there is more risk.
Besides the name calling, this is a very imformative thread that I hope more people on this board are reading. Abuse of AAS has major health effects...and some people here who think they are using mild amounts (therefore less risk) are probably not.
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LVH is a significant risk factor for heart disease. Even knowing this previously, I looked up several additional studies and resources on how cardiac risk factors are weighed. One calculation put more weight on LVH than diabetes or smoking. However, I believe HTN is still the largest risk factor.
ventricular hypertrophy is good to increase heart function and cardiac output if its mild (many athletes) but as the wall size continues to increase past a certain point, more problems develop. Additionally, if the hypertrophy is asymmetric, there is more risk.
Besides the name calling, this is a very imformative thread that I hope more people on this board are reading. Abuse of AAS has major health effects...and some people here who think they are using mild amounts (therefore less risk) are probably not.
I agree 100% regarding the health effects of AAS. That's why I think it's good to have physicians talking about this in this particular thread.
I think everyone is missing my point though. HTN is definitely a risk factor for heart disease. HTN puts an individual at risk for a myriad of health problems. But, the point was made that LVH essentially "created" from AAS use was a MAJOR risk factor. I think everyone should be able to agree that if a patient came to you with mild LVH (I used the myocardial thickness of 1.2cm earlier), and this patient was void of other risk factors, you would NOT consider the patient a serious risk for heart disease.
Please don't argue that fact.
You would only consider the patient a risk for heart disease in the presence of OTHER risk factors with that LVH. If the patient came to you in a hypertensive state, with dyslipidemia, and the appearance of developing DM, you would begin to consider the patient at a fairly high level of risk.
Even if the patient came in with HTN, and no other symptoms, you would probably mention the risk to them, and would certainly treat the HTN. But, in the case of LVH, you would do nothing, unless OTHER factors were involved.
In fact, you would probably comment that the person looked to be in good physical shape, and that the exercise they do is very good for them.
Nicorulz is acting as though she would send every patient with LVH to Cleveland for a myoectomy, or ETOH ablation!
If Nicorulz could see through the red in her eyes, she would focus on presenting the REAL risk factors of AAS abuse from a "professional" perspective.
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Dumbass, why are you so damn ignorant. Obviously, LVH is a major risk factor for cardiovascular events. Does it really matter if it is secondary to HTN vs steroids; it is present. LVH, beyond HTN and dyslipidemia and diabetes, has certain clinical implications completely separate from those diseases. You are so dense that you keep on harping about HTN only. First, you have absolutely not medical training and couldn't treat a common cold if it hit you in nose. Your logic and deductions are skewed at best and asinine at worst. You don't believe that AAS are a major cardiovascular risk. Unfortunately, there are not many clinical trials comparing placebo to anadrol as it is an unethical and illegal study. What has been deduced from indvidual case studies is that AAS are associatied with LVH. LVH is known to cause heart disease. Ergo, a chimp (which you obviously are not) can deduce that maybe AAS increase your risk for cardiovascular events. Tell you what Ms. PTA, show me an article that shows me the benefit of AAS on cardiovascular funcitoning when used in the manner that bodybuilders use them. You are making a major mistake in assuming that LVH without risks means nothing. Oh no, LVH without hypertension usually means something else is going on that is not very good. For instance, the following:
* obesity [52, 53],
* age,
* dietary sodium intake [54],
* volume load [55],
* diabetes [56],
* arterial hypertrophy and stiffening [57],
* insulin resistance [58], and
* neurohumoral factors (e.g., adrenergic factors and the renin-angiotensin system) [59, 60].
Here is a link of the full article. It does not discuss the dangers of LVH in detail; I have already done that on my own and given references (for which you have none). Regardless, a person does not have LVH for no reason. That is fallacy and if a reason is not found, I can gurantee you that a good physician will do the appropriate work up and refer to a cardiologist. Once again Ms PTA, your logic and reasoning are skewed beyond belief. I know you are a fan of androgenic steroids, and that is fine with me. However, you are a purveyor of falso information. Knowledge is power and you have a paucity of it. Learn to read and understand from those far brighter and knowledgeable than you. ;)
http://www.sph.uth.tmc.edu/hgc/fbpp/techSigLVH.htm
Here's one that separates LVH out from arterial hypertension in hemodialysis patients with cardiac death.
http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/7/1829
Read this article below that I have reprinted and thank Heart Online (and acknowledge): PS...read the bold print please which I have highlighted.
Heart Online access for your BMJ subscription
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Right arrow Drugs: cardiovascular system
Heart 2004;90:473-475
© 2004 by BMJ Publishing Group & British Cardiac Society
EDITORIAL
Cardiac effects of anabolic steroids
J R Payne, P J Kotwinski and H E Montgomery
Centre for Cardiovascular Genetics, British Heart Foundation Laboratories, London, UK
Correspondence to:
Dr H E Montgomery
British Heart Foundation Laboratories, Royal Free & University College Medical School, Rayne Building, 5 University Street, London WC1E 6JF, UK; h.montgomery@ucl.ac.uk
ABSTRACT
Anabolic steroid abuse in athletes has been associated with a wide range of adverse conditions, including hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance. But what effect does steroid abuse have on the cardiovascular system?
Keywords: steroid; hypertrophy; exercise; anabolic steroids
Abbreviations: AAS, anabolic/androgenic steroids; AR, androgen receptor; ExU, ex-users of anabolic steroids; hCG, human chorionic gonadotrophin; hGH, human growth hormone; LVH, left ventricular hypertrophy; LVMM, left ventricular muscle mass; RAS, renin-angiotensin system; RT, resistance training; U, users of anabolic steroids; WL, weightlifters
Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) independently predicts cardiovascular mortality and morbidity across diverse disease states.1 While cardiac diastolic or contractile failure might result directly from structural change within the ventricle (such as altered capillary density or matrix deposition), the association of LVH with cardiovascular disease is more likely dependent upon the increased activity of shared physiological pathways driving both processes. The nature of these underlying mechanisms remains poorly understood. In this regard, escalating attention has focused on the potential role of steroid hormones on LV growth responses.
Whether of local or systemic origin, endogenous steroid hormones appear to drive LV growth. Systemic glucocorticoid excess is associated with significant hypertrophy. This action is more likely to be direct, rather than mediated through an elevated pressor burden,2 with aldosterone having similar effects.3 Local myocardial renin-angiotensin systems (RAS) play a role in regulating LV growth,4 and at least part of the hypertrophic responses to steroid hormones may be mediated through upregulation of local RAS expression.5 Anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS—primarily comprising testosterone and its synthetic derivatives) are likely to share such influences on the LV hypertrophic response through actions on the androgen receptor (AR), a transcriptional regulator.6,7 Indeed, ARs are almost ubiquitously expressed, being found not only in skeletal muscle cells, but also on cardiac myocytes. Several lines of evidence also implicate endogenous androgenic pathways in the development of cardiac hypertrophy, including the demonstration of raised 5{alpha} reductase, aromatase, and AR expression in hypertrophic hearts of both humans and mice.6
EXOGENOUSLY ADMINISTERED STEROIDS
Given these putative effects of steroid hormones (and AAS in particular) on LV growth, we might expect exposure to exogenously administered steroid hormones to be associated with an exaggerated LV hypertrophic response to any other hypertrophic stimulus.
Exercise is just such a potent cardiac hypertrophic stimulus.4,8,9 Meanwhile, athletes are increasingly exposing themselves to supra-physiological doses of AAS. These are known to increase skeletal muscle mass and strength7—effects which form the basis for their administration to enhance athletic performance. A variety of AAS are often taken simultaneously (so called "stacking"), and in doses which result in 10–100 fold increases in androgen concentrations.7 Administration regimens usually involve a 6–12 week cycle and are often administered in a "pyramidal" fashion, with doses tapering from low to high to low.10 Abused substances include testosterone, its 17-ß esters, and those based on modified steroid rings (including 17-{alpha} derivatives).7
The largest group to make such use of AAS are the very group whose LVH response to exercise is likely to be the greatest—the strength or resistance training (RT) athletes. One study from 1995 suggested that two thirds of elite US powerlifters have self reported use of AAS to enhance performance11; even "dope testing" may be underestimating the true extent of such use.12 What evidence is there that AAS administration enhances the LV hypertrophic response to resistance exercise?
In this issue of Heart, Urhausen and colleagues report the results of a cross sectional study of cardiac morphology in relation to AAS use.13 Male bodybuilders/powerlifters currently using AAS or ex-users who had abstained from AAS exposure for over 12 months (U and ExU, n = 17 and 15, respectively) were compared to 15 weightlifters who denied current or past use of AAS (WL). Left ventricular wall thickness and cavity dimensions were assessed using echocardiography, and muscle mass (LVMM) calculated using the Devereux equation. Absolute LVMM measures (mean (SD)) were significantly greater for U than ExU or WL (281 (54) g v 232 (42) g v 204 (44) g for U v ExU v WL, respectively), with differences between ExU and WL only reaching significance after adjustment for body surface area or fat-free mass. These results suggest that AAS use increases the LV hypertrophic response to exercise, an effect which might last for well over a year.
CAUTION NEEDED
Such data must nonetheless be treated with caution. We know, for example, that the magnitude and pattern of hypertrophy is dependent on the nature, duration, and intensity of exercise undertaken.8,9,14 Thus, strength trained athletes (such as weightlifters, powerlifters, bodybuilders, and throwers) develop a greater increase in wall thickness, a more concentric pattern of LV growth, and a lesser increase in LV chamber internal dimensions8 in comparison to those undergoing predominantly aerobic/endurance exercise. In the study under discussion, training patterns will have varied. One might suspect that subjects taking AAS were also the most motivated to train (whether by initial predisposition, or psychological impact of the steroid use itself). However, this does not seem to be the case as the authors report that the magnitude of training did not differ between U, ExU, and WL groups. Even so, more subtle differences in training pattern may have existed between bodybuilders, powerlifters, and weightlifters. Although all groups lift exceptionally heavy weights, the total load and training pattern are likely to differ.
Other factors may also have been of influence. Diet (including the use of supplements) may have differed between groups, as might the use of other agents. Abusers of AAS frequently also self administer other drugs including stimulants, antioestrogens, human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG), and human growth hormone (hGH).10 It is unclear to what extent these and other drugs might have driven LV growth, and whether the ExU group were still taking any of these. Neither can mechanistic inferences be drawn from the data: the putative effects of AAS on LV growth may have been mediated directly, or through secondary phenotypes such as alterations in circulating volume or blood pressure. Certainly, resting systolic blood pressure is higher in the U v ExU group, a difference which persists as a trend for exercising blood pressure. The use of such drugs (as well as differences in patterns of training) may also have influenced fat-free mass and body surface area. The adjustment for such anthropometric measures may have contributed to the significance of the comparison between ExU and WL.
Finally, it is noticeable that the ExU group were younger than the U group, and it may be that LV growth responses differ with subject age. Nonetheless, these data are consistent with existing data. Over a decade ago, De Piccoli demonstrated that LV mass among bodybuilders who used AAS was greater than that in non-users, and did not regress over a nine week period of abstinence.15
HEALTH IMPLICATIONS
If AAS use is associated with an exaggerated LV hypertrophic response to training, what are the likely health implications? They may be profound. In terms of non-cardiac morbidity, AAS use is associated with hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, baldness, acne, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance. Such drugs also have toxic effects on metabolic profile and hepatic structure and function,10 as well as potentially promoting neoplastic growth.10 Indeed, Parsinnen reported the 12 year mortality to be 12.9% among 62 male powerlifters suspected of AAS use, compared to 3.1% in a control population.16
LVH is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular mortality and (through whatever mechanism) one might anticipate an excess cardiovascular mortality among AAS users in whom LVH occurs. In addition, the recognised association of AAS use with hypertension and dislipidaemia (raised low density lipoprotein and reduced high density lipoprotein cholesterol, and raised triglycerides),10 as well as influences on coagulation and platelet aggregation,10 might increase such risk. While it is debatable whether ASS use is indeed associated with an increased risk of premature cardiovascular death, 38% of the deaths in Parssinen’s powerlifting group were attributed to "myocardial infarction",16 while several case reports have attributed myocardial infarction in athletes to ASS abuse.
In some cases, infarction has occurred without evident coronary thrombosis or atherosclerosis, leading to the hypothesis that ASS may induce coronary vasospasm in susceptible individuals.10 Similarly there are several case reports of increased thromboembolic risk.10 In a recent postmortem series of 34 AAS abusers aged 20–45 years (comprising 12 homicides, 11 suicides, 12 "accidental" deaths, and two of indeterminate cause), 12 of the deceased showed cardiac pathology. Findings included hypertrophy (7 cases), myocardial or endocardial fibrosis (5), cardiac steatosis (1), myocardial coagulation necrosis (2), and coronary atheroma (4). Cardiac changes were adjudged to have contributed to death by poisoning in two cases.17 However mediated, such a morbid burden is likely to rise with time. The US National Institute on Drug Abuse reported in 1999 that between 2.7–2.9% of year 8–12 high school teenagers had experimented at least once with AAS, representing a 38–50% rise since 1991.18
The influence of steroid hormones on the heart thus warrants further study. Evidently, the potential impact of steroid abuse on public health is a matter of concern. Perhaps more importantly, however, such studies might lead to a greater understanding of the shared mechanisms through which cardiac growth and cardiovascular disease are mediated. Such issues are increasingly exciting as the identification of local myocardial steroid synthesis (and its potential pathogenicity19) is paralleled by the demonstrated efficacy of steroid antagonists in cardiac disease.20 We might yet see a role for steroid antagonists such as aldosterone in the primary or secondary prevention of LVH, and its associated cardiovascular sequelae.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
JRP is funded by the British Heart Foundation (PG/02/021), who also provide core funding for the Centre for Cardiovascular Genetics. PJK and HEM are funded by the Portex Endowment. HEM is a Portex Senior Lecturer in Cardiovascular Genetics.
REFERENCES
1. Levy D, Garrison R, Savage D, et al. Prognostic implications of echocardiographically determined left ventricular mass in the Framingham heart study. N Engl J Med 1990;322:1561–6.[Abstract]
2. Fallo F, Budano S, Sonino N, et al. Left ventricular structural characteristics in Cushing’s syndrome. J Hum Hypertens 1994;8:509–13.[Medline]
3. Delles C, Schmidt BM, Muller HJ, et al. Functional relevance of aldosterone for the determination of left ventricular mass. Am J Cardiol 2003;91:297–301.[CrossRef][Medline]
4. Montgomery HE, Clarkson P, Dollery CM, et al. Association of angiotensin-converting enzyme gene I/D polymorphism with change in left ventricular mass in response to physical training. Circulation 1997;96:741–7.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
5. Dostal DE, Booz GW, Baker KM. Regulation of angiotensinogen gene expression and protein in neonatal rat cardiac fibroblasts by glucocorticoid and beta-adrenergic stimulation. Basic Res Cardiol 2000;95:485–90.[CrossRef][Medline]
6. Liu PY, Death AK, Handelsman DJ. Androgens and cardiovascular disease. Endocr Rev 2003;24:313–40.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
7. Kuhn CM. Anabolic steroids. Recent Prog Horm Res 2002;57:411–34.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
8. Pluim BM, Zwinderman AH, van der Laarse A, et al. The athlete’s heart. A meta-analysis of cardiac structure and function. Circulation 2000;101:336–44.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
9. Haykowsky MJ, Dressendorfer R, Taylor D, et al. Resistance training and cardiac hypertrophy: unravelling the training effect. Sports Med 2002;32:837–49.[Medline]
10. Parssinen M, Seppala T. Steroid use and long-term health risks in former athletes. Sports Med 2002;32:83–94.[Medline]
11. Wagman DF, Curry LA, Cook DL. An investigation into the annabolic androgenic steroid use by elite U.S. powerlifters. J Strength Cond Res 1995;9:149–54.
12. Curry LA, Wagman DF. Qualitative description of the prevalence and use of anabolic androgenic steroids by United States powerlifters. Percept Mot Skills 1999;88:224–33.[Medline]
13. Urhausen A, Albers T, Kindermann W. Are the cardiac effects of anabolic steroid abuse in strength athletes reversible? Heart 2004;90:496–501.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
14. Urhausen A, Kindermann W. Sports-specific adaptations and differentiation of the athlete’s heart. Sports Med 1999;28:237–44.[Medline]
15. De Piccoli B, Giada F, Benettin A, et al. Anabolic steroid use in body builders: an echocardiographic study of left ventricle morphology and function. Int J Sports Med 1991;12:408–12.[Medline]
16. Parssinen M, Kujala U, Vartiainen E, et al. Increased premature mortality of competitive powerlifters suspected to have used anabolic agents. Int J Sports Med 2000;21:225–7.[CrossRef][Medline]
17. Thiblin I, Lindquist O, Rajs J. Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids. J Forensic Sci 2000;45:16–23.[Medline]
18. NIDA. NIDA Community Drug Alert Bulletin - Anabolic Steroids. National Institute on Drug Abuse; http://165.112.78.61/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html (accessed 22 September 2003).
19. Rocha R, Funder JW. The pathophysiology of aldosterone in the cardiovascular system. Ann N Y Acad Sci 2002;970:89–100.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
20. RALES Investigators. Effectiveness of spironolactone added to an angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor and a loop diuretic for severe chronic congestive heart failure (the randomized aldactone evaluation study [RALES]). Am J Cardiol 1996;78:902–7.[CrossRef][Medline]
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Mrs. PTA, here is a link from UPTODATE, the most widely respected and most clinically up to date (duh) web resource for medical professionals. Here is a snippet, if you want the who article, I will be happy to email you a word copy:
Norman M Kaplan, MD
Pamela S Douglas, MD
Burton D Rose, MD
UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 350 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 14.2 is current through April 2006; this topic was last changed on April 17, 2006. The next version of UpToDate (14.3) will be released in October 2006.
INTRODUCTION — Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a common finding in patients with fixed or borderline hypertension and can be diagnosed either by ECG or by echocardiography [1,2]. The latter is the procedure of choice, since the sensitivity of the different ECG criteria may be as low as 7 to 35 percent with mild LVH and only 10 to 50 percent with moderate to severe disease [3]. Nevertheless, if echocardiography is unavailable or too expensive, appropriate ECG criteria can be used to detect increased LV mass [4].
The clinical implications and therapy of LVH in hypertension will be reviewed here. The definition and pathogenesis of this complication in hypertensive patients are discussed separately. (See "Definition and pathogenesis of left ventricular hypertrophy in hypertension").
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS — The presence of LVH (on ECG or echocardiography) is important clinically because it is associated with increases in the incidence of heart failure, ventricular arrhythmias, death following myocardial infarction, decreased LV ejection fraction, sudden cardiac death, aortic root dilation, and a cerebrovascular event (show figure 1) [2,5-13]. One report, for example, compared 131 hypertensive patients without prior clinical evidence of heart disease who had experienced a cardiac arrest with 562 randomly selected hypertensives who served as controls [8]. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of sudden death was increased 40 percent by the presence of LVH (using electrocardiographic criteria), 70 percent by ischemic myocardial injury, and 80 percent by QT interval prolongation.
LVH diagnosed by echocardiography, which is much more sensitive than the ECG [14], also carries an increased risk for cardiac events (angina and myocardial infarction, heart failure, and serious ventricular arrhythmia) and cardiovascular deaths [7,10,12,15,16]. The range of findings is illustrated by the following observations:
Just from the intro, it is apparent that LVH (not cardiomyopathy which you are so completely confused about) is a significant risk for cardiovascular events (almost all of them). If you want the full article, I would gladly email it to you.
Here is some more:
Mechanisms for increased risk — The increased cardiac risk associated with LVH is probably due in part to myocardial ischemia that can be induced by a variety of factors. In hypertrophied myocardium, there is a reduced density of capillaries. Furthermore, the enlarged muscle mass limits the ability of the coronary arteries to dilate in response to decreased perfusion or during vasodilatory stress [9,17-19]; it may also directly compress the endocardial capillaries. Both of these factors can decrease coronary reserve and can have a number of important clinical implications.
* Coronary occlusion is associated with a greater degree of infarction and a higher mortality rate than seen in the absence of LVH [20,21]. The increased mortality associated with LVH is also seen in patients receiving thrombolytic therapy [22].
* The hypertrophied myocardium may be more susceptible than normal myocardium to the effects of ischemia. In a study of patients with sudden cardiac death, the patients with hypertension who died suddenly had less extensive coronary disease and were less likely to have thrombi in the coronary vessels than normotensives who died suddenly [23].
The development of heart failure with LVH results from depressed left ventricular systolic function and/or diastolic dysfunction. (See "Pathophysiology of diastolic heart failure"). The deleterious effect of left ventricular remodeling may be an important determinant of progression to overt heart failure [24]. (See "Cardiac remodeling: Basic aspects").
LVH also causes several electrophysiologic changes or electrical remodeling, including nonuniform action potential prolongation, altered repolarization and increased dispersion of recovery, and the easily provocable early afterpotentials, which are associated with an increased vulnerability to ventricular arrhythmias, especially torsade de pointes, and sudden death [25-28].
HA HA HA!!! Another link to a study!! HA HA!!
Do you have any knowledge of your own? Do you just do a quick google search for all your info??? I'm getting embarassed for you now.
Where in the hell do you see me saying AAS aren't a major cardiovascular risk? PLEASE tell me where I ever said that.
In fact, I've said MANY times that the ARE a risk. Read that again.....I can slow it down for you, and put it in caps. THEY ARE A RISK. I've said this in every post of mine! This proves you're not reading my posts, and just furiously typing on the keyboard with rage in your heart as soon as you see my screen name. LOL!
I'm saying that you should PERHAPS focus on the bigger risk factors.
It's obvious that you don't have the ability to understand my sentence about you smashing your car on a pebble.
Maybe if I had a link to it, you would be able to understand it! LOL
I'm saying QUIT MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL! Focus on the REAL risk factors of heart disease that come from AAS use.
Here, I'll make a little bet with you.
I have LVH. My septal wall has been measured at approximately 1.2-1.3 cm via echo. My posterior wall is 1.2cm.
I have no other risk factors for heart disease. NONE.
NOW, if you can find me ONE doctor (a cardiologist, not a nephrologist...) that will tell me I'm at a high risk for heart disease SOLELY because of my LVH (I'm not hypertensive either), I will never make you look stupid on a thread again.
Deal?
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You are clueless. You are at risk and don't even know it. LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below). If you are male, that is an independent risk factor. If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor. If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor. I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below). Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies). If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article. Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication. Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot. What is your cholesterol. What is you BP. Are you diabetic. Are you a smoker. All of these are risk factors. Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath. It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event. Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors. You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).
Let me put it to you this way. There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber. This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients. Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber. This is seen in athlete's heart. If this is what you have, it is benign. If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign. I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.
http://www.cvphysiology.com/Heart%20Failure/HF009.htm
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I've been attending The New England's for years. Have also competed in 04 and 05. I never formally was introduced to anthony. But spoke breifly with him once. He came across very sincere and seemed to have a true passion for our sport. i remember so well because eveywhere i seemed to look, this gigantic man always seemed to be........would have gueessed him around 250/75 every year i saw him.....R.I.P. big man
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WRONG, they give them cortico- steroids (not the same thing) and in fact that was years ago. Stop posting shit you know nothing about.
Thank you.........unless you fact please do not post here !!!!!
Their are 3 classes of steriod's
a) Anabolic
b)Cortico/ anti-anabolic
c) now let's see who is quilified to answer these types of questions
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You are clueless. You are at risk and don't even know it. LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below). If you are male, that is an independent risk factor. If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor. If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor. I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below). Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies). If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article. Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication. Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot. What is your cholesterol. What is you BP. Are you diabetic. Are you a smoker. All of these are risk factors. Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath. It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event. Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors. You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).
Let me put it to you this way. There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber. This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients. Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber. This is seen in athlete's heart. If this is what you have, it is benign. If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign. I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.
http://www.cvphysiology.com/Heart%20Failure/HF009.htm
Avoiding the question again?
I said that if you could show me one cardiologist that would put me at high risk for an MI based solely on my LVH, I would quit making you look stupid on this site.
I have LVH. I don't have diastolic dysfunction, I don't have dyslipidemia (in fact, my HDL is over 70), I don't use AAS, I don't have diabetes, I don't have elevated triglycerides, I don't have hypertension, I'm not obese, I exercise regularly (even completed the 2002 Chicago marathon).
SO....I have mild LVH, diffusely measured at 1.2cm.
Do you HONESTLY believe I'm at high risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you?
And, just because I know you won't focus on the info I've given you, I'll also include that I have no family history of CAD, or any related risk factors.
I'm also a white male, late 20's.
If you need info on my SES, I can give you that via PM.
Again, I'll ask you to PLEASE stop making a mountain out of a mole hill, and focus on the REAL risk factors for heart disease that come from AAS use.
If you do, however, honestly believe that I'm at a strong risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you (again), I'll just let you go on treating kidney disease, and thank god that you're not a cardiologist telling every athletic person that they're going to die of heart disease because their (totally normal functioning left ventricle) is borderline hypertrophied.
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I am not a cardiologist but mild LVH induced by exercise is not a risk factor for cardiac disease. It is defined as athlete's heart and the risk if different than HOCM or pathologic perminant hypertrophy (ie caused by HTN or End stage renal disease). Its an adaptive hypertrophy. In most of the studies I looked at, they classified LVH as a wall thickness of 1.5 cm or greater but they also concidered filling patterns, LV mass, and LV cavity dimension and systolic function. If your measurement was 1.2 and your a well conditioned athlete, the results of these studies may not apply to your risk. Athletic hearts with wall thickness > 1.5 are uncommon. Hypertrophy in athletic heart regresses with deconditioning, pathologic hypertrophy doesn't (without medicine). Serial echocardiograms are warranted to look at patterns of progression.
"In the case of the heart, hypertrophy of the left ventricle is defined as a wall thickness greater than 1.5 cm with an increased heart weight". Measurements of 1.2-1.5 are boarderline enlargement and can have multiple causes with varied risks. LVH is better defined as "LV mass index exceeding 131 g/m2 in men (110 g/m2 in women)"
In differentiating the wall hypertrophy in athlete's heart vs. pathologic hypertrophy the size of the left ventricular cavity dimension, when either < 45 or > 55 mm is important. An Echocardiogram would measure this. Fibrosis occurs in the pathologic hypertrophied heart but does not in the athlete's heart.
Not all LVH has the same risk factors. There are many more variables than wall size alone to define pathologic LVH.
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I am not a cardiologist but mild LVH induced by exercise is not a risk factor for cardiac disease. It is defined as athlete's heart and the risk if different than HOCM or pathologic perminant hypertrophy (ie caused by HTN or End stage renal disease). Its an adaptive hypertrophy. In most of the studies I looked at, they classified LVH as a wall thickness of 1.5 cm or greater but they also concidered filling patterns, LV mass, and LV cavity dimension and systolic function. If your measurement was 1.2 and your a well conditioned athlete, the results of these studies may not apply to your risk. Athletic hearts with wall thickness > 1.5 are uncommon. Hypertrophy in athletic heart regresses with deconditioning, pathologic hypertrophy doesn't (without medicine). Serial echocardiograms are warranted to look at patterns of progression.
"In the case of the heart, hypertrophy of the left ventricle is defined as a wall thickness greater than 1.5 cm with an increased heart weight". Measurements of 1.2-1.5 are boarderline enlargement and can have multiple causes with varied risks. LVH is better defined as "LV mass index exceeding 131 g/m2 in men (110 g/m2 in women)"
In differentiating the wall hypertrophy in athlete's heart vs. pathologic hypertrophy the size of the left ventricular cavity dimension, when either < 45 or > 55 mm is important. An Echocardiogram would measure this. Fibrosis occurs in the pathologic hypertrophied heart but does not in the athlete's heart.
Not all LVH has the same risk factors. There are many more variables than wall size alone to define pathologic LVH.
Shootfighter1,
what is your opinion on beta agonists, and their effect on the heart? Do you feel that excessive use of clen, ephedrine, and other beta agonists is at part a cause of the "appearant" high incident of CHF in bodybuilders. This being not necessarily from diastolic dysfunction, but actually decreased contractile ability of the LV.
Do you think this would have any similarity to the way that cocaine attacks the cells of the myocardium?
I'm just guessing that there is a high incident rate of CHF in bodybuilders, but given there size, it has to be a consideration. I'm also assuming that Anthony's cardiomyopathy was of the ischemic sort, and not a hypertophic cardiomyopathy. I'm just speculating, so no disrespect.
In school, I actually got to do a research lab project on the effects of ephedrine and caffeine consumption on rating of percieved exertion with exercise. We used the Bruce protocol on the treadmill. (don't ask me how we got that approved. lol)
Some of the readings were pretty interesting. RPE was actually quite a bit lower at any given heart rate with the ECA. Even at peak exercise, when the subjects could go no longer, their RPE never reached above about 17 on a 6-20 scale.
But, their heart rate, and blood pressure response was quite a bit more wild than we predicted. Obviously, peak heart rate was pretty much unchanged, but at any given intensity, their heart rates were MUCH higher than without the ECA.
Their blood pressure responses were even worse.
This was before I followed bodybuilding, and before I knew anyone who used AAS.
It's too bad there will never be any real research studies done on top level athletes (of all professions) using the enhancment techniques they will use regardless of their legal status.
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Avoiding the question again?
I said that if you could show me one cardiologist that would put me at high risk for an MI based solely on my LVH, I would quit making you look stupid on this site.
I have LVH. I don't have diastolic dysfunction, I don't have dyslipidemia (in fact, my HDL is over 70), I don't use AAS, I don't have diabetes, I don't have elevated triglycerides, I don't have hypertension, I'm not obese, I exercise regularly (even completed the 2002 Chicago marathon).
SO....I have mild LVH, diffusely measured at 1.2cm.
Do you HONESTLY believe I'm at high risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you?
And, just because I know you won't focus on the info I've given you, I'll also include that I have no family history of CAD, or any related risk factors.
I'm also a white male, late 20's.
If you need info on my SES, I can give you that via PM.
Again, I'll ask you to PLEASE stop making a mountain out of a mole hill, and focus on the REAL risk factors for heart disease that come from AAS use.
If you do, however, honestly believe that I'm at a strong risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you (again), I'll just let you go on treating kidney disease, and thank god that you're not a cardiologist telling every athletic person that they're going to die of heart disease because their (totally normal functioning left ventricle) is borderline hypertrophied.
You are truly a dipshit. I specifically mentioned in my last post about the different types of LVH. You did not give me one iota of fact about what type of LVH you had. I specifically mentioned athlete's heart was not a risk factor (which is what you have). However, you in all of your infinite wisdom appear to believe that AAS give the same type of LVH as a runner. That is where you are dead wrong. If you learned to read, you would specifically see that AAS cause concentric hypertrophy of ventricle. Read any of my posts; concentric hypertrophy (such as what AAS and HTN give you) is a high risk for cardiovascular events. If you had one iota of medical training, you would know that what I was referring to is completely different than your conditon. All you harped on was the LVH you had. You gave me no insight into your medical condition, but you were defending steroids so I figured you were juicing. Thus my posts to put you in your place. If you would have told me you were an athlete who ran and had mild hypertrophy, I would have spared you the diatribe. You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor. Thus, it was you were being coy and acting self righteous. You have been disproven many times in this thread. It is getting rather embarassing for you.
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You are clueless. You are at risk and don't even know it. LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below). If you are male, that is an independent risk factor. If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor. If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor. I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below). Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies). If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article. Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication. Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot. What is your cholesterol. What is you BP. Are you diabetic. Are you a smoker. All of these are risk factors. Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath. It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event. Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors. You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).
Let me put it to you this way. There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber. This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients. Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber. This is seen in athlete's heart. If this is what you have, it is benign. If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign. I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.
My quote above. Read it Ms PTA. It clearly talks about eccentric hypertrophy and the fact that athlete's heart is a benign condition.
Shootfighter, I am done responding to Ms PTA, but I am curious of what type of physician you are. You appear to be quite knowledgeable about hemodynamics and physiology. Are you internal medicine, pulmonary/critical care? Just curious. If you are not a physician, I assume you are a PhD.
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You are truly a dipshit. I specifically mentioned in my last post about the different types of LVH. You did not give me one iota of fact about what type of LVH you had. I specifically mentioned athlete's heart was not a risk factor (which is what you have). However, you in all of your infinite wisdom appear to believe that AAS give the same type of LVH as a runner. That is where you are dead wrong. If you learned to read, you would specifically see that AAS cause concentric hypertrophy of ventricle. Read any of my posts; concentric hypertrophy (such as what AAS and HTN give you) is a high risk for cardiovascular events. If you had one iota of medical training, you would know that what I was referring to is completely different than your conditon. All you harped on was the LVH you had. You gave me no insight into your medical condition, but you were defending steroids so I figured you were juicing. Thus my posts to put you in your place. If you would have told me you were an athlete who ran and had mild hypertrophy, I would have spared you the diatribe. You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor. Thus, it was you were being coy and acting self righteous. You have been disproven many times in this thread. It is getting rather embarassing for you.
Glad to see you finally admitting you were wrong, as per your quote "You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor."
But, you're yesterday's news. We're on to new topics here. You were getting boring anyway.
Also, for your information, (since with your infinite wisdom, you couldn't have been more wrong about me), I AM in the medical profession.
Specifically, I have my bachelor's in Exercise Physiology, and my Master's in Kinesiology. I am currently running the Phase III cardiac Rehab program at a top 15 Cardiology hospital. I am involved in all phases of the cardiac rehab program as well. I am cross trained as an echocardiographer, and am in fact one of two people in the entire nation qualified for the REVIVAL percutaneous Aortic Valve replacement research study echocardiographic measurement protocol.
I was co-author of the nutrition and training section of a top selling cardiology book (aimed at the general public).
My wife is a D.D.S
My mother was an RN (now is C.O.O of her hospital)
My grandmother was an RN, My aunt is an RN
My good friend since grade school is chief fellow of his cardiology program at the hospital I work at.
Another good friend is an anesthesiologist
My mother's best friend is a CRNA
So....I am not a doctor, but I have been involved in the medical profession my whole life.
I know many people who do choose to use AAS, but sadly, we'll never be able to do any research into how it's use effects the body. This is in large part to douche bag arrogant docs like you, who are more set in trying to prove to others that they know more, than actually finding the risks involved with what they're talking about.
I'm sure your bedside manner is as lovely as you show here, especially from your statement about telling "soccer moms" how dumb they are for trying to help you find out what is wrong with their kids. (I'm sure you're thinking, how DARE they attempt to be a D O C T O R!!!??? That is MY job.)
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Nicorulz,
Also, please realize that there is VAST differences between LVH in runners, strength athletes, and HTN patients.
The heart adapts to stresses in many ways. The first way a heart adapts to extra "work" is to hypertrophy. The second is the frank-starling method of increasing pre-load, to increase output. Finally, there are changes to the mico level of the myocardium. The final stage is what causes the problems with LVH. This is what is seen in HTN patients.
Take Lance Armstrong for example. I guarantee that his echo would be fairly ugly. He probably has some level of LVH, and probably even more dilation. In fact, many top endurance athletes almost appear to have ischemic cardiomyopathies with basic cardiac testing.
Even there EF's will appear quite low, and at the ischemic level.
But, what isn't always understood by the doctor is that these hearts are functioning normally. There is no need for a high ejection fraction when your LV size is nearing 6cm. The heart does what is necessary for the workload put on it.
Many strength athletes will appear to have a HOCM type appearance to their heart. You can occasionally hear s3 and S4 sounds. Their echo will appear to be cardiomyopathic in etiology as well. They will have very clear echo windows. They will appear to have low EF.
But, this is very different than LVH that comes from a HTN patient with years of continues increased back loads on the LV.
With exercise, even the most intense, and long duration exercise, you're looking at abnormal loads being placed on the heart for a matter of just minutes a day.
Compare this to a patient with HTN, who's heart is under increased loads for every single hour of the day, for years on end. You can see how quickly those hearts will power through the 3 mechanisms for adaption MUCH faster than an athletes heart.
The thing with medicine is, you're dealing with minor standard deviations from the norm in every patient. It is VERY rare to see a patient at an extreme end of the bell curve in a given area.
AAS patients can probably be considered at a far end of that curve.
Since you're so big on links, and abstracts, look up some stuff on Blase Carabello, one of the top cardiologists in the world. His ideas on athlete's hearts, and various forms of LVH are pretty interesting.
Sometimes you have to think beyond the basics in treating your patients.
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ETA, you never once said you were an athlete. You just stated point of fact I have LVH. What the fuck does that mean. The way you were posting, I assumed you were a AAS user. I admit nothing wrong. You are the dipshit who has not an iota of medical background behind you. ::) ::) I pointed the significant side effect of concentric LVH (the type that is associated with hypertension and AAS). Please, spare me any didactic teaching from an individual who obviously has the medical background of the average tenth grader in high school. ::) ::) I have repeatedly pointed out your inaccurate assertions from the get go. You never once even mentioned athlete's heart. To be honest, I doubt you even had a clue of what it was until I pointed it out. Regardless, you are about as intelligent as the average chimp. Just because you know somebody in medicine hardly makes you an expert. I know a professional tennis; I couldn't play to save my life. Move on and ask some intelligent questions. Most of your quetions and response are very banal. ;)
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ETA, you never once said you were an athlete. You just stated point of fact I have LVH. What the f**k does that mean. The way you were posting, I assumed you were a AAS user. I admit nothing wrong. You are the dipshit who has not an iota of medical background behind you. ::) ::) I pointed the significant side effect of concentric LVH (the type that is associated with hypertension and AAS). Please, spare me any didactic teaching from an individual who obviously has the medical background of the average tenth grader in high school. ::) ::) I have repeatedly pointed out your inaccurate assertions from the get go. You never once even mentioned athlete's heart. To be honest, I doubt you even had a clue of what it was until I pointed it out. Regardless, you are about as intelligent as the average chimp. Just because you know somebody in medicine hardly makes you an expert. I know a professional tennis; I couldn't play to save my life. Move on and ask some intelligent questions. Most of your quetions and response are very banal. ;)
I thought I told you that you were yesterday's news.
You've made assumptions all along. None of them have been right. I'm sure that resonates throughout your life.
Please attempt to puke your knowldege on another thread now. You have no purpose here.
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Glad to see you finally admitting you were wrong, as per your quote "You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor."
But, you're yesterday's news. We're on to new topics here. You were getting boring anyway.
Also, for your information, (since with your infinite wisdom, you couldn't have been more wrong about me), I AM in the medical profession.
Specifically, I have my bachelor's in Exercise Physiology, and my Master's in Kinesiology. I am currently running the Phase III cardiac Rehab program at a top 15 Cardiology hospital. I am involved in all phases of the cardiac rehab program as well. I am cross trained as an echocardiographer, and am in fact one of two people in the entire nation qualified for the REVIVAL percutaneous Aortic Valve replacement research study echocardiographic measurement protocol.
I was co-author of the nutrition and training section of a top selling cardiology book (aimed at the general public).
My wife is a D.D.S
My mother was an RN (now is C.O.O of her hospital)
My grandmother was an RN, My aunt is an RN
My good friend since grade school is chief fellow of his cardiology program at the hospital I work at.
Another good friend is an anesthesiologist
My mother's best friend is a CRNA
So....I am not a doctor, but I have been involved in the medical profession my whole life.
I know many people who do choose to use AAS, but sadly, we'll never be able to do any research into how it's use effects the body. This is in large part to douche bag arrogant docs like you, who are more set in trying to prove to others that they know more, than actually finding the risks involved with what they're talking about.
I'm sure your bedside manner is as lovely as you show here, especially from your statement about telling "soccer moms" how dumb they are for trying to help you find out what is wrong with their kids. (I'm sure you're thinking, how DARE they attempt to be a D O C T O R!!!??? That is MY job.)
Your wife a dentist, really. Now I suppose you are an expert in teeth. BTW, moron, please show me in your original quote about LVH that you were talking about athletes. You can't. I will show the original post below, so that others can really see what an idiot you are. You never once made the supposition that you were a runner. I am amazed that anybody would allow such an ignorant fool to work in their lab.
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Your wife a dentist, really. Now I suppose you are an expert in teeth. BTW, moron, please show me in your original quote about LVH that you were talking about athletes. You can't. I will show the original post below, so that others can really see what an idiot you are. You never once made the supposition that you were a runner. I am amazed that anybody would allow such an ignorant fool to work in their lab.
Yes, my wife is a dentist. And no, I know nothing about teeth.
Just like you aren a nephrologist, and know nothing about the heart.
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Nicole,
Don't group LVH with Cardiomyopathy. You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's. The only link between LVH (which is what AAS would cause, I think we can agree that LVH from androgen usage is entirely different than a cardiomyopathic HOCM or IHSS) and increased incident of MI's is the increased need for coronary blood flow to feed the increased LV thickness. This would more than likely be offset by the increased funcional capacity of the heart from the increased exercise patterns of the AAS user.
You have the ability to educate the readers here, as well as yourself with the information at your fingertips.
Keep the focus on the real risks. Dyslipidemia being one that actually is a potentially serious risk of AAS usage.
Moron, once again, this was your original post. You have no idea that LVH and cardiomyopathy are two completely separate entities. You have no clue that concentric LVH (I was talking about anabolic steroid users...not runners) is a very strong risk factor for cardiovascular events. You have got to be either the stupidest or most stubborn individual on this board. Your one quote "You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's" is absolutely laughable. You have no knowledge on the subject. The breadth of your knowledge is equal to that of the average layman trying to understand particle physics. It is not going to happen. To make matters worst, you are trying to debate me. LOL This is classic. Stick with running or advertising or whatever the hell you do; you have no leg to stand on debating me about medical illness. Go back to sleep Mrs. PTA.
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Dumbass, cardiologist consult me for hypertensive management. I am a certified hypertensive specialist. I service a county of over 120000 people. There are only three of us in the whole county. I have forgotten more info than you have ever accumulated. My knowledge on this matter absolutely destroys yours. I don't have to go look up facts in my high school biology book as you do.
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Puke my knowledge on this thread. HAHAHAHA. It is funny because I have gotten PM's from countless readers who understand I know my shit. You have no clue. I am always available to lend my assistance to fellow GetBiggers. Your knowledge base lends you to questions from your five year old kid.
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Puke my knowledge on this thread. HAHAHAHA. It is funny because I have gotten PM's from countless readers who understand I know my shit. You have no clue. I am always available to lend my assistance to fellow GetBiggers. Your knowledge base lends you to questions from your five year old kid.
You sure let yourself get worked up over this, huh?
Also, if you look at my original post, you'll see that I explain to YOU that LVH is different from cardiomyopathy.
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What you didn't understand is the difference of athlete's heart (eccentric LVH) (also harmless) vs concentric LVH (HTN, AAS) (far from benign as you surmised). If you were not such a tool and calling me Nicole, I would have gladly pointed out your lack of understanding in a kinder, gentler fashion. ::) ::) However, you were an ass and love pummelling idiots like you who know nothing, yet think they are informed. Read my posts; nothing in any of my posts is not factual. Everything I have stated is backed up one hundred fold by medical literature and studies. You make blanket statements with no understanding of the issue whatsoever. Move on and let me debate you on any medical point. It will be interesting.
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Have you looked up Dr. Carabello yet?
You can't just do a google search for his info on LVH and athletes. You'll actually have to dig a bit.
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My friend, I have know about the risk of concentric LVH and heart disease since fellowship and residency training. I trained with one of the hemodynamic experts in the world; LVH is a real conumdrum that is a very serious risk for heart disease. If you think all I did was google, you are completely mistaken. I have intimate knowledge of the disease process and cardiovascular risks in general. I can go above and beyond this and bring in the Metabolic Syndrome but I will not. Now, looking up Dr. Carabello is not something I have done as it is the first time I am aware that you mentioned it. If not, I apologize, but I do work on general 12 hour days. Since I have not done a search on him or her, please enlighten me. I have already stated to you on numerous posts that athlete's heart is not a serious risk. i mentioned this very early in our discussions. Also, don't try to deflect the obvious sarcasm of your posts. ::) ::) Thus, Ms PTA enlighten me for once.
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Girls look good ::)
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My friend, I have know about the risk of concentric LVH and heart disease since fellowship and residency training. I trained with one of the hemodynamic experts in the world; LVH is a real conumdrum that is a very serious risk for heart disease. If you think all I did was google, you are completely mistaken. I have intimate knowledge of the disease process and cardiovascular risks in general. I can go above and beyond this and bring in the Metabolic Syndrome but I will not. Now, looking up Dr. Carabello is not something I have done as it is the first time I am aware that you mentioned it. If not, I apologize, but I do work on general 12 hour days. Since I have not done a search on him or her, please enlighten me. I have already stated to you on numerous posts that athlete's heart is not a serious risk. i mentioned this very early in our discussions. Also, don't try to deflect the obvious sarcasm of your posts. ::) ::) Thus, Ms PTA enlighten me for once.
He's done some interesting research on LVH, and why and how LVH is a risk. His theories are pretty interesting, and point out why LVH isn't necessarily a risk. But, that it must have a few prerequisites for it to officially be a risk.
I understand metabolic syndrome, so don't act like it would be dropping some kind of nuclear bomb on the subject.
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One contrarian that refutes what 100's of the worlds most respected cardiology researchers and numerous health organizations claim is true. ::) ::) You have to do better than that. Refer me to an article in NEJM or Lancet or Science. Until then, he has no more credibility than Duchaine and his endless loyalty to anabolics.
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One contrarian that refutes what 100's of the worlds most respected cardiology researchers and numerous health organizations claim is true. ::) ::) You have to do better than that. Refer me to an article in NEJM or Lancet or Science. Until then, he has no more credibility than Duchaine and his endless loyalty to anabolics.
HA HA HA!!!
He's one of the TOP cardiologists in the WORLD! He is without a doubt one of the most respected cardiologists across the globe. You still haven't looked him up, huh?
Check out his credentials. He's LEADING the quest for knowledge on LVH.
"Dr. Blase Carabello, chief of medicine at the Houston Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Texas"
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/heart/9907/14/heart.abnormality/index.html
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/citation/113/14/1721
http://www.houston.med.va.gov/HOUSTON/pressreleases/news_20020314.asp
I could post links for days, as there is literally thousands of them.
But, a simple search will tell you that he was selected as best in his field in 2003. (his field is cardiology)
http://www.houston.med.va.gov/HOUSTON/pressreleases/news_20040108.asp
Blase A. Carabello, M.D.
Medical Care Line
Specialty: Cardiovascular Disease
Title: Medical Care Line Executive
He is potentially the TOP cardiologist in the nation, and one of the best in the world. Hardly "duchaine" level.
But of course, I'm sure you believe that you're more knowledgable regarding LVH than the leading LVH physician in the entire country.
Can I see some of your cutting edge research into LVH and it's relation to heart disease?
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Now I remember the guy. Funny thing is, he is one of the most famous hemodynamic experts in the world. I didn't make the link..my bad. Interestingly, one of the local cardiologists who trained at Texas Heart (where Carabello is located) is going to work at the Houston VA. He is the head cardiologist of all VA's in the country. I will look up his work. Peace.
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Cool.
I actually couldn't find any of his info on LVH online. Most of it was his work on valvular issues. We had some stuff at the hospital laying around with LVH stuff. That's where I got his stuff about LVH, and the various etiologies.
I think a lot will come out in the future regarding the actual micro-damage to the heart as risk factor. Things like Echo, and ECG are really so large scale and crude. There is much more going on at a cellular level than is shown with most of today's diagnostic testing.
But, such is medicine. Just a few years ago, MVP was diagnosed with a stethescope. How many thousands of people are taking antibiotics before dental appointments for no reason?
That's like trying to find a stud in the wall by pounding your fist against the drywall!
Now I remember the guy. Funny thing is, he is one of the most famous hemodynamic experts in the world. I didn't make the link..my bad. Interestingly, one of the local cardiologists who trained at Texas Heart (where Carabello is located) is going to work at the Houston VA. He is the head cardiologist of all VA's in the country. I will look up his work. Peace.
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HA HA HA!!!
He's one of the TOP cardiologists in the WORLD! He is without a doubt one of the most respected cardiologists across the globe. You still haven't looked him up, huh?
Check out his credentials. He's LEADING the quest for knowledge on LVH.
"Dr. Blase Carabello, chief of medicine at the Houston Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Texas"
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/heart/9907/14/heart.abnormality/index.html
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/citation/113/14/1721
http://www.houston.med.va.gov/HOUSTON/pressreleases/news_20020314.asp
I could post links for days, as there is literally thousands of them.
But, a simple search will tell you that he was selected as best in his field in 2003. (his field is cardiology)
http://www.houston.med.va.gov/HOUSTON/pressreleases/news_20040108.asp
Blase A. Carabello, M.D.
Medical Care Line
Specialty: Cardiovascular Disease
Title: Medical Care Line Executive
He is potentially the TOP cardiologist in the nation, and one of the best in the world. Hardly "duchaine" level.
But of course, I'm sure you believe that you're more knowledgable regarding LVH than the leading LVH physician in the entire country.
Can I see some of your cutting edge research into LVH and it's relation to heart disease?
Alright, i did some research on Dr. Carabello. He basically opines the same thing I have been saying. LVH is independently a risk factor of cardiovascular events. Look at page 3 of the following article penned by none other. I admit, at the end, he does state that after a significant MI, some concentric remodeling if done in a certain way may be more beneficial. However, the majority of the article was promoting ways to treat LVH and even induce regression. Read page 3 and the "Prognostic indicator" part.
http://ahavj.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/circulationaha;102/4/470.pdf
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My man, I guess in the end there is a lot about medicine that needs to be learned. BTW, if you work in a hospital, what do you do. I admit, I was being a smart ass when I referred to you as a chimp ;) (getting back at the Nicole bit). Regardless, you do have some good insight. I want to read more of his stuff. It seems like he is the world expert on aortic stenosis. In a nutshell, AS is usually not a good thing. ;)
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I'm primarily an exercise physiologist. I have my bachelor's in Exercise physiology, and my master's in Kinesiology.
I'm also cross trained as an echocardiographer. If you've ever heard of Dr. William O'neill and his REVIVAL percutaneous aortic valve replacement research, I'm one of two echocardiographers in the country trained for that protocol. I also run our Phase III cardiac rehab program at the hospital.
It's boring though. I'm debating going back for my PhD in nutrition. I think I would really like that.
As much as I loved the schooling for Ex. Phys.....staring at an ECG screen and taking blood pressures all day is not exactly as fun as I had hoped.
My man, I guess in the end there is a lot about medicine that needs to be learned. BTW, if you work in a hospital, what do you do. I admit, I was being a smart ass when I referred to you as a chimp ;) (getting back at the Nicole bit). Regardless, you do have some good insight. I want to read more of his stuff. It seems like he is the world expert on aortic stenosis. In a nutshell, AS is usually not a good thing. ;)
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Very cool. Are you out of Houston or by chance Michigan, where O'Neill was from. Apparently, he is moving to the fun and sun of Miami to the University of Miami School of Medicine...my alma mater. Good move and a pretty cool city. Get your PhD and then you can go on the lecture circuit to all the academic institutions. Regardless, since you are an exercise physiologist, have you personally done any echos on athletes who were obviously juiced to the gills.
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Yeah, he's moving to Miami. I would be doing the same thing if I were him.
I've done a few echos on fully juiced guys. It's kind of surprising how some of them look. Many of them have echos that would look like they belonged to a renal patient. Renal patients tend to have VERY clear echo pictures. I'm assuming due to subcutaneous water retention speeding up the sound waves. AAS abusers seem to have the same view quality (even when their renal panel is 100% normal)
They also appear to have diastolic dysfunction, even though the measurements don't show it. Many of them have decreased ejection fractions, that would appear to be below normal for an athlete. This is where I was introduced to Dr. Carabello's work on the subject. I talked to our chief cardiology fellow, who I've been friends with since we were kids. Appearantly Dr. Carabello is finding things with athletes hearts that don't fit the mold at all. Things like low EF, appearant Dilation, to the point of wanting to diagnose ischemic cardiomyopathy, etc.
This is where I was talking about the tri-level adaptation to increased workload. It starts with LVH, then moves to a dilated ventrical through the frank-starling mechanism, then finally moves to cellular level trauma. With LVH caused by HTN, there is more cellular damage to the myocardium. The heart muscle becomes "sick," and there is increase fibrosis, etc. But, with the athlete, it never reaches this point. So, with the LVH, and even the dilation (this is really only relative to endurance athletes) what would otherwise appear in every way to be problematic, is 100% normal for what that heart has to accomplish.
He could get into it MUCH better, as I'm just a hack, but it was very interesting. I would really be interested to see what kind of results could come out of research studies on the topic. The problem is, as I stated before, we only really see a very small deviation of the norm with patients. In the bell shaped curve of patients, we only see right in the middle. Athletes are obviously on one end of the curve, but the medical profession doesn't really deal with them. So, I think there is much to be learned still as to how the body adapts to exercise. Especially the heart.
Very cool. Are you out of Houston or by chance Michigan, where O'Neill was from. Apparently, he is moving to the fun and sun of Miami to the University of Miami School of Medicine...my alma mater. Good move and a pretty cool city. Get your PhD and then you can go on the lecture circuit to all the academic institutions. Regardless, since you are an exercise physiologist, have you personally done any echos on athletes who were obviously juiced to the gills.
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Very interesting. This is where I believe the eccentric LVH you see with athletes (especially endurance athletes such as yourself) differ from the LVH seen in hypertensives (and apparently AAS abusers). The articles I read seem to indicate that AAS abuse is associated with concentric hypertrophy. Thus, I believe you will get diastolic dysfunction (not the case with endurance athletes) which actually impedes coronary blood flow. One of the theories about why LVH is an intrinsic risk factor is since the coronaries perfuse during diastole, there is an impedence to this flow from LVH. Also, it is safe to surmise that the more mucle you have to perfuse puts you at relative risk for cardiovascular events (once again, athletes are a no go here as they do not generally have diastolic dysfunction).
It is interesting that you speak of renal patients. Interestingly, for their age groups, a 25-30 year old renal patient has almost a one hundred times increased risk for cardiovascular events. Amazingly, the number one reason why renal patients die is associated with the heart. On average, a renal patient has a 20-25% mortality a year. That is horrible and unchanged despite advances in science. It may also have something to do with the fact that we are initiating older people on dialysis (For instance, I have a ninety year old who wants to be plugged up to the machine ::)). More interesting is the fact that when they get a functioning renal transplant, their risk goes down fairly dramatically. I suspect that uremic (the bad toxins that build up in dialysis patients) toxins may have something to do with this fact along with dialysis itself. Have a great day. I guess you live up north then. Enjoy the heat as it is going to get cold soon. ;D
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BTW Johnny, I treat type 2 diabetics everyday. When we put them on Biguanide therapy or thiazolinedione therapy (look it up genius), we are improving insulin sensitivity and decreasing gluconeogenesis. I have patients who have exercised and lost weight. Hell, I give you that a few have gotten off all meds and are diet controlled. However, I have some African American patient's who are as lean Adonis who are diabetics. However, they have parents who were both diabetics. We control their disease with diet, exercise and oral meds (usually of the classes above). Thus, do not think that I just overlook lifestyle when it comes to diabetics. Once again, you make blanket statements about MD's without ever speaking to one. I am an athlete; I want my patient's to exercise. However, to deny the existence of type 2 diabetes in non obese individuals is fallacy.
http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD023612.html
Educate yourself my GNC spouting friend.
Meltdown :-\
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LuciousFox, what meltdown. That is fact. Moreover, me and Johnny are cool now. We both made some generalizations that were not quite true. Thus, no meltdown.
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Anthony D'Arezzo was given an autopsy. He died from complications related to a cardiomyopathy, not a minor heart problem! The etiology of the cardiomyopathy was not discussed, but one common cause of cardiomyopathy is longstanding untreated malignant hypertension. Various supplements can cause hypertension, so anyone on supplements might want to periodically check blood pressure at the local pharmacy, or better yet, buy a blood pressure cuff for $25.00. Powerlifters and bodybuilders are prone to pulmonary hypertension; perhaps because of prolonged valsalva when getting out those last few reps. So, it's important to breath properly during excercise and not to hold one's breath and turn shades of purple.
(Note: I didn't write this; it came over the Yahoo masters bodybuilding group.)
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/
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Anthony D'Arezzo was given an autopsy. He died from complications related to a cardiomyopathy, not a minor heart problem! The etiology of the cardiomyopathy was not discussed, but one common cause of cardiomyopathy is longstanding untreated malignant hypertension. Various supplements can cause hypertension, so anyone on supplements might want to periodically check blood pressure at the local pharmacy, or better yet, buy a blood pressure cuff for $25.00. Powerlifters and bodybuilders are prone to pulmonary hypertension; perhaps because of prolonged valsalva when getting out those last few reps. So, it's important to breath properly during excercise and not to hold one's breath and turn shades of purple.
(Note: I didn't write this; it came over the Yahoo masters bodybuilding group.)
http://www.anthonydarezzo.com/
Are you trying to tell me it wasn't Advil ???
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His education:
B.S. of Health Science, August 1995
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Anthony was a great guy and will be so greatly missed. Everyday I thank God for sending Ant into my life and being able to love him and share so much with him. Ant was an inspiration to so many not only in the sport of b-building but in life. If I could say the one thing I loved most about Ant it would have to be his smile. Ant's smile brightened the worst of my days and made me feel the most loved. Not only was Ant my best friend, dinner date, ice cream buddy, adnd number one cook he was my soul mate.
Forever he will remain in my heart and forever I will be proud of the bodybuilder, inspiration, hero, boyfriend, man he was and man he was becoming. Ant - your always a champion and forever I will love and be proud of you.
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Anthony was a great guy and will be so greatly missed. Everyday I thank God for sending Ant into my life and being able to love him and share so much with him. Ant was an inspiration to so many not only in the sport of b-building but in life. If I could say the one thing I loved most about Ant it would have to be his smile. Ant's smile brightened the worst of my days and made me feel the most loved. Not only was Ant my best friend, dinner date, ice cream buddy, adnd number one cook he was my soul mate.
Forever he will remain in my heart and forever I will be proud of the bodybuilder, inspiration, hero, boyfriend, man he was and man he was becoming. Ant - your always a champion and forever I will love and be proud of you.
Sorry for your loss.
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Anthony was a great guy and will be so greatly missed. Everyday I thank God for sending Ant into my life and being able to love him and share so much with him. Ant was an inspiration to so many not only in the sport of b-building but in life. If I could say the one thing I loved most about Ant it would have to be his smile. Ant's smile brightened the worst of my days and made me feel the most loved. Not only was Ant my best friend, dinner date, ice cream buddy, adnd number one cook he was my soul mate.
Forever he will remain in my heart and forever I will be proud of the bodybuilder, inspiration, hero, boyfriend, man he was and man he was becoming. Ant - your always a champion and forever I will love and be proud of you.
What happened?
YIP
Zack
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RIP Big Ant...... Gold's Gym(Pawt, RI) is an empty place with out the Big Ant..... god bless the entire D'Arezzo family and all his friends....
www.anthonydarezzo.com (http://www.anthonydarezzo.com)