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Title: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 19, 2012, 10:17:22 AM
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


This passage was written in the time when the people had several gods. So it does not surprise me that this particular anoymous author chose to use "our"... 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on November 19, 2012, 11:15:16 AM
I find it very odd that despite posting a bunch of verses with various bolded texts, not one verse contains the topic of your thread, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit."  Perhaps I prematurely assumed that the implication of a thread title is that the thread itself would discuss it or contain some support for it.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
Inn semetic languages, our/we is a plural respect.

It's like in French, when you address someone there is a generic you and a you of respect which is plural.

Likewise 'our/we' is a royal plural. Arabic, Armaic and Hebrew use this commonly.

God in hebrew is Elohim. It's Eloh = 'god' but im is plural suffix. So literally it would mean 'gods' but it is used in hebrew as God.

In Arabic Allah is singular and genderless but that's another topic.

So I am sorry but you've been misled :)

God is one, trinity is a later invention and Jesus nevr thought it :)

Jesus himself preached "Hear oh israel God is one


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 12:06:05 PM
I find it very odd that despite posting a bunch of verses with various bolded texts, not one verse contains the topic of your thread, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit."  Perhaps I prematurely assumed that the implication of a thread title is that the thread itself would discuss it or contain some support for it.

It's very obvious, but I'll play along:

Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

God talking to God, one person of the Trinity talking to another person of the Trinity.

Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

The LORD, in human form on earth, rained down burning sulfur from the LORD, in spirit form, out of the heavens.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus claims to be God.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus claims to be God, again.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Jesus claims to be God, again.

John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas calls Jesus God and worships Him, and Jesus neither stops him nor corrects him.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Jesus puts himself(The Son) and the Holy Spirit at the same level of God the Father.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on November 19, 2012, 12:57:10 PM
It's very obvious, but I'll play along:

Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

God talking to God, one person of the Trinity talking to another person of the Trinity.

Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

The LORD, in human form on earth, rained down burning sulfur from the LORD, in spirit form, out of the heavens.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus claims to be God.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus claims to be God, again.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Jesus claims to be God, again.

John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas calls Jesus God and worships Him, and Jesus neither stops him nor corrects him.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Jesus puts himself(The Son) and the Holy Spirit at the same level of God the Father.

If it really were obvious you would not be needing the green text which explains YOUR interpretation of those verses.  If there was a verse remotely similar to the text in your thread title, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit" then there would be no debate or need to try to explain certain verses to show that they can fit with what you want to believe.  The portion of your thread title which I bolded is the part that is non-scriptural and therefore the part which you cannot show.  Otherwise, yes there is lots of statements in scripture that there is only one God.

When I have more time this evening, God-willing, I will post verses that show that Jesus could not have been God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 01:08:25 PM
If it really were obvious you would not be needing the green text which explains YOUR interpretation of those verses.  If there was a verse remotely similar to the text in your thread title, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit" then there would be no debate or need to try to explain certain verses to show that they can fit with what you want to believe.  The portion of your thread title which I bolded is the part that is non-scriptural and therefore the part which you cannot show.  Otherwise, yes there is lots of statements in scripture that there is only one God.

When I have more time this evening, God-willing, I will post verses that show that Jesus could not have been God.

Then by all means, instead of posting your own Bible verses pointing to the contrary, why don't you please take each one of the verses I posted and tell me what is your own interpretation?

This thread is not an attempt to convert Muslims or atheists.  You are entitled to your beliefs and your own interpretations.  I believe in freedom of religion.

I created this thread in response to claims I read in other threads that there is absolutely no evidence of the Trinity in the Bible, and also claims that Jesus never claimed to be God.  I just showed you why I, and millions of other Christians, believe that Jesus is God and that God is one in three persons.  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 01:22:28 PM
lol you skipped me huh poor whitey ex-christian here  ;D

Did you even read what I said? In your unfortunate ignorance of semetic languages, you thought 'our' and 'we' meant the trinity.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on November 19, 2012, 01:43:56 PM
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
PREACH brother loco!

Feel blessed to read this post! 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 01:52:35 PM
lol you skipped me huh poor whitey ex-christian here  ;D

Did you even read what I said? In your unfortunate ignorance of semetic languages, you thought 'our' and 'we' meant the trinity.

Sorry, a_ahmed!  I seem to have hurt your feelings.  It seems you only addressed one of the many verses that I posted.  Will you please address all the other verses too?  Thank you!

As I told bigbobs:

This thread is not an attempt to convert Muslims or atheists.  You are entitled to your beliefs and your own interpretations.  I believe in freedom of religion.

I created this thread in response to claims I read in other threads that there is absolutely no evidence of the Trinity in the Bible, and also claims that Jesus never claimed to be God.  I just showed you why I, and millions of other Christians, believe that Jesus is God and that God is one in three persons. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
PREACH brother loco!

Feel blessed to read this post! 

God bless ya, brotha!    ;D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on November 19, 2012, 02:01:07 PM
Then by all means, instead of posting your own Bible verses pointing to the contrary, why don't you please take each one of the verses I posted and tell me what is your own interpretation?
This thread is not an attempt to convert Muslims or atheists.  You are entitled to your beliefs and your own interpretations.  I believe in freedom of religion.

I created this thread in response to claims I read in other threads that there is absolutely no evidence of the Trinity in the Bible, and also claims that Jesus never claimed to be God.  I just showed you why I, and millions of other Christians, believe that Jesus is God and that God is one in three persons.  

Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man.  Let me know.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 02:06:40 PM
Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man.  Let me know.

Thanks bigbobs!  I can't promise I'll have the time to come back any time soon to read and/or respond, but I will try my best.  I used to post a lot on this board, but life has recently gotten busier and more complicated.   :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 02:08:09 PM
lol so you admit you just made that up and that in fact it has nothing to do with the trinity? You were just not aware of semetic languages.

No hurt feelings bro, I believe in God Almighty as Jesus preached and that is without the trinity ;) After all Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time!


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 02:19:38 PM
lol so you admit you just made that up and that in fact it has nothing to do with the trinity? You were just not aware of semetic languages.

No hurt feelings bro, I believe in God Almighty as Jesus preached and that is without the trinity ;) After all Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time!

I admitted no such things, besides, all I did was post verses which speak for themselves.  You quickly lose credibility putting words in my mouth.  Don't you have any integrity?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 02:23:45 PM
No actually you lose credibility when you make a false claim about something such as that verse  8)

In your lack of understanding of semetic languages combined with your zeal in trinitarianism you assumed that those verses were talking about the trinity. The trinity did not exist until after Jesus left from this world.

The verses you spoke of and MANY other verses which speak of 'our', 'we' even have not a single time clicked with Jews to mean the trinity. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the trinity but rather the plural respect, the royal respect.

It is the same in the qur'an. Our and we are used over and over again. Hebrew, Arabic and the language of Jesus Aramaic all use this plural of respect.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
No actually you lose credibility when you portray something as something else  8)

In your lack of understanding of semetic languages combined with your zeal in trinitarianism you assumed that those verses were talking about the trinity. The trinity did not exist until after Jesus left from this world.

The verses you spoke of and MANY other verses which speak of 'our', 'we' even have not a single time clicked with Jews to mean the trinity. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the trinity but rather the plural respect, the royal respect.

It is the same in the qur'an. Our and we are used over and over again. Hebrew, Arabic and the language of Jesus Aramaic all use this plural of respect.

You talk a lot, but you don't say much.   Jesus claimed to be God many times:

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 02:25:36 PM
So I guess you won't admit that you made false claims about those verses :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 02:26:49 PM
So I guess you won't admit that you made false claims about those verses :)

I did not make false claims about those verses.  They clearly speak for themselves.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 02:34:51 PM
No actually you did. You didn't know about semetic languages and their use of plural respect. You tried to claim that was the trinity when "our" and "we" are in the verses.

I'm pretty sure you are also not aware that the english translated bible keeps saying "God" when in fact the original scriptures say "Ellohim" (gods in the literal if you were to misunderstand semetic languages).

It's not self explanatory. That's why I gave you an explanation as you lacked knowledge on the matter.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on November 19, 2012, 02:50:57 PM
No actually you did. You didn't know about semetic languages and their use of plural respect. You tried to claim that was the trinity when "our" and "we" are in the verses.

I'm pretty sure you are also not aware that the english translated bible keeps saying "God" when in fact the original scriptures say "Ellohim" (gods in the literal if you were to misunderstand semetic languages).

It's not self explanatory. That's why I gave you an explanation as you lacked knowledge on the matter.

Actually, no, I didn't.  I am aware of your argument about Genesis 1:26.  It has been plastered all over the Internet by those who do not believe in the Trinity, Muslims are not the only ones.  

But I do not subscribe to such argument because it is flawed.  God was indeed speaking to the other persons of the Trinity, which is later confirmed in John 1.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 02:57:22 PM
Okay well I guess you are going to reteach the Hebrew language to Jews then who came way before you. After all Jesus did not speak Latin either, he spoke Aramaic as was the language of Palestine at the time. In either case, none of these are ENGLISH :)

Now you, who doesn't speak any of these languages, have come to argue with the English language, English translations about semetic languages and what they 'really mean' :)

Pretty sure the Jews know more than you then and now... and it's quite unscholarly. This is the internet of course and you're welcome to believe Santa Clause is Jesus if you so chose to but it's foolishness.

I know you really really really really want the trinity to be true, so you will remake whatever you see fit anyway to fit it in your doctrine. But unfortunately you are only making yourself look foolish... by making false statements about verses and completely misrepresenting what they mean or the language they are spoken in.

Obviously in the English language now a days no one speaks in the royal plural. There is no English king that goes "we have decided" when refering to himself. Your limited understanding is skewing the truth in the matter.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on November 19, 2012, 03:09:28 PM
Here don't let this silly ex-christian now Muslim confuse you :) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural

What we really care about is the part refering to the torah:

Quote
Jewish scholars point to the majestic plural or the royal we in many verses of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh. "Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim', to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for authority figures to speak of themselves as if they were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself yet he refers to himself as 'we' (see also Ezra 4:16-19).[5]

The tradition of the royal we may also be traced to the Mughals of India and Sultans of Banu Abbas and Banu Umayyah. The royal we is used to express the dignity or highest position either understood as strictly hierarchical or as referential to an alternate "higher" than ego identity.

There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah speaks using the Arabic pronoun nahnu (meaning "we") or its associated suffix. "We" created, "we" sent down, etc.[6] It is also used in the second person in formal diplomatic language, associated with a style or honorific. For instance, the President of Egypt would be addressed as فخامتكم Fakhāmatakum, "Your (plural) Excellency" in formal diplomatic communications (e.g. diplomatic telegrams).

This usage is also popular among the speakers of the Batangan dialect of Tagalog, while some actors and politicians such as Philippine President Benigno Aquino III have been known to use the Tagalog exclusive form in giving interviews.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on November 19, 2012, 08:43:15 PM
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Ahmed already addressed this when describing the royal plural.


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord.  Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God.  The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)

See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ."  This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

If God = "I am" then Jesus' quote becomes "before Abraham was born, God!”
This definitely is far from Jesus claiming to be God.


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”.

Someitmes to show solidarity with my wife I say "My wife and I are one."  This does not mean we are literally one being.  But I'm guessing you're also thinking that the fact the opponents started throwing stones on Jesus and saying "because you, a mere man, claim to be God" is evidence.  However, you conveniently skipped the verses before and after this excerpt.  Looking before, verse 24 shows that the Jews were asking him if he is the Christ (not asking him if he was God), to which he confirmed that he is (note Christ does not equal God because the title is used for other humans (Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus of Persian is called God's Christ, just one example).  So they ask Jesus if he is Christ and he replies Yes, then they stone him and accuse him of claiming to be God.  In response (in verse 34) "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods?"  If he called them "gods" to whom the word of God came - and the scripture cannot be broken - what about one whom the Father setapart as his very own and sent into the world.  Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son?"  So here Jesus explains that even if he had said something which they misinterpreted to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God (ex. confirming that he is Christ), they should realise that some human beings were called "gods" in the Bible (ex. Psalms 82:6-8) which shows God has honoured some human beings by calling them "gods."  This is just a figurative expression, but Jesus was reminding the Jews who were stoning him so that they should understand that even if he says something that they take as him claiming to be god, they should take it as a figurative expression.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

But in John 5:37 Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time.  1 John 4:12 also says that no one has ever seen God.  If Jesus was God, then whoever has seen Jesus would have seen God.  The verses above you posted, saying "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" mean that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus taught about God.

Will respond to the others later, out of time for now.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on November 22, 2012, 01:48:38 AM
I find it very odd that despite posting a bunch of verses with various bolded texts, not one verse contains the topic of your thread, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit."  Perhaps I prematurely assumed that the implication of a thread title is that the thread itself would discuss it or contain some support for it.
VERY POOR LOGIC, The word Bible or the Bible is not mentioned or talked about in the Bible


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on November 22, 2012, 09:46:12 AM
VERY POOR LOGIC, The word Bible or the Bible is not mentioned or talked about in the Bible

lol so its "very poor logic" to expect scriptural confirmation of fundamental beliefs?

Yes the word Bible is not mentioned in the Bible, which reinforces that it's an incomplete collection of manuscripts.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 19, 2012, 10:05:09 AM
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 19, 2012, 10:35:27 AM
That's cute, however, the Jews did not smile and have a happy happy fairy tale in a barn.

The fact is, the Jews called marry a whore and all kinds of other names. This is in their writings, in the talmud, etc...

The islamic narrative of Mary was that she kept away from the people.

The fact is, she got pregnant without being married, something that outraged everyone to accuse her of adultery and other lewdness.

Your image is fancy art but not reality. The Jews rejected Jesus (peace be upon him) as the messiah.

They wanted to put Mary (peace be upon her) to death as well.

The daughter of a priest is to be put to death by fire according to Jewish law:

"'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Leviticus 21:9

She was under the care of Zacharia (peace be upon him) who served in the temple as well as Mary (pbuh) did too.

They made all kinds of accusations against both of them.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 19, 2012, 11:08:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9MvU7mNIc

Watch this, it explains it all!!

go to 5:00 if you dont want to watch the whole thing.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: B_B_C on December 19, 2012, 11:17:34 AM
so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 19, 2012, 11:29:26 AM
so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot

Allah is one.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: B_B_C on December 19, 2012, 11:49:17 AM
Allah is one.

did she tell you that?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 19, 2012, 12:03:19 PM
so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot

What's so hard to understand about God being three persons in one God?

You are three in one as well:  body, mind and soul.  God is just much more complex because he is God, but still three in one like you are.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 19, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
^It's called bipolar or in this case tripolar disorder and you making stuff up  because you have no certainty or proof. The proofs of scripture are not in your favour either. Neither is philosophical debate. Neither is rational thought. They all go against your trinitarianism. Trinity did not exist until after Jesus (pbuh). These teachings are foreign to the teachings of Jesus. It's the pagan polution of the romans, the very enemies of Jesus, the Jews and the believing people.

God is not three. God is one as Jesus said:

Hear oh Israel OUR Lord God is one

You are closer to Hindus than you are to Muslims and Jews (Jesus was a Jew).

Hindus also believe there is 'only one God', according to their scriptures, however they further invent that there are 'three main gods', and then they go further with the brahman priests saying the peasent lower castes are dumb so they need to worship many gods and idols to get 'closer to God' and thus you have 'millions of gods'... and God is 'in everything'. Dwelling in people, nature, things, idols, objects. etc...

Sounds a lot closer to what you are preaching than to what Jews and Muslims preach as far as pure monotheism is concerned.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 19, 2012, 01:24:59 PM
One example I love to cite as far as trinitarianism is concerned and this notion of God being bipolar or not knowing things is the verse about "the hour".

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

The hilarious thing is, certain christian theologians say that when Jesus 'god' was in 'flesh', he chose deliberately to be ignorant of the hour lol... UNTIL he returns for 'judgement'... no I am not joking.

Non-sense to a rational person... because this is trying to make things up to prove the trinity NOT use scripture even as evidence to do anything... the scripture as evidence goes against the trinity period.

Plain and simple rational. If Jesus is God, why does he say he doesn't know, angels don't know, no man knows. ONLY the 'father' aka God knows.

This EXACT same situation is posed in the qur'an and certain hadi'ths. Where Muhammad (pbuh) is asked about the hour, arch-angel Gabriel is asked about the hour and the SAME answer is given in the qur'an and hadi'th that NO ONE, no man, no angel, etc... knows about the hour EXCEPT God. The knowlege of the hour is with God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 19, 2012, 05:22:16 PM
these christans are not even real christans, they do not worship like Jesus did.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 20, 2012, 11:26:00 AM
JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY

By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries

"Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad"

(Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)

Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:

"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God. but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."

Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.

He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.

GOD IS A PLURALITY

The Name Elohim


It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.

Plural Verbs Used With Elohim

Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...

Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.

Plural Pronouns

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

GOD IS AT LEAST TWO

Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities


As if to make the case for plurality even stronger. there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."

The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:

"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)

GOD IS THREE

How Many Persons are There?

If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage

In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion

The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:

"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).

New Testament Light

In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.

Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.

(1) "Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" (the Name). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica, 593.

2) In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse two and he is both YHVH and God in verse four. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11,12, 20 and 21, but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.

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Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 20, 2012, 11:36:46 AM
JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY

By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries

"Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad"

(Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)

Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:

"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God. but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."

Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.

He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.

GOD IS A PLURALITY

The Name Elohim


It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.

Plural Verbs Used With Elohim

Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...

Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.

Plural Pronouns

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

GOD IS AT LEAST TWO

Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities


As if to make the case for plurality even stronger. there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."

The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:

"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)

GOD IS THREE

How Many Persons are There?

If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage

In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion

The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:

"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).

New Testament Light

In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.

Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.

(1) "Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" (the Name). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica, 593.

2) In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse two and he is both YHVH and God in verse four. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11,12, 20 and 21, but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.

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Excellent read.

Be aware that any suggestion of "Plural Pronouns" for the sake of the trinity will be hit with the ole "royal plural" pronoun usage comeback....suggesting that "royal plurals" used in hebrew don't indicate the trinity.  Most likely that logic will be applied against other sections of the article whether that defense is correct or relevant.

Also any quoting of scripture outside of the Torah will be simply deemed as "corrupted" and ignored, but even the Torah will be deemed "corrupted" if it doesn't work in the opposition's favor....cherry picking at its finest.   But of course, any verse selected by the opposition is never "corrupted" and anything used as a Christian defense is either "fully corrupted" or "highly suspect".....after all we're nothing but "Pauline Christian's" and any follower of that "liar Paul" is a glorified pagan LOL!!

In addition, Deut 6:4 is the kinda "go-to argument positioning" for those that oppose the trinity.  If all else fails hit em with Deut 6:4...it's the "knock out punch" that packs about as much whallop as a declawed, newborn kitten.  It does nothing but justify the Christian position of monotheism, but hey "it's a response".

There's a canned response for almost everything regardless of that response being invalid or "forced to fit" incorrectly.

FYI and I'll be praying for you!!


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 20, 2012, 08:11:01 PM
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 20, 2012, 10:03:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA

Watch this guys. it will do you alot of good both Muslims and non-muslims.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 21, 2012, 05:52:36 AM
Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?

No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 21, 2012, 07:10:01 AM
No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.

Agreed, you have, and God bless you for it!!   



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 21, 2012, 07:18:19 AM
No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.

I haven't read the article you pasted and I can't promise I will as I rarely read lengthy copy-pasted material unless it's something I find very intriguing. 

And I have no idea what "overwhelming amount of Biblical material supporting the deity of Jesus Christ" you're referring to, I haven't found any such evidence in this thread.  I just noticed your post with the verse from Isaiah and I responded showing that's no evidence of the Bible calling Jesus God.

And what are you waiting for me to address?  Why am I always the last to know these things lol.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 21, 2012, 07:31:55 AM
Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?
Here is the whole of Pslam 82:

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.


In John 10:34 Christ directly quotes Pslam 82:6 when discussing with the Pharisees his own claims of divinity:
John 10

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

It's that all important context that makes the difference.    ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 21, 2012, 07:36:32 AM
I haven't read the article you pasted and I can't promise I will as I rarely read lengthy copy-pasted material unless it's something I find very intriguing.  

And I have no idea what "overwhelming amount of Biblical material supporting the deity of Jesus Christ" you're referring to, I haven't found any such evidence in this thread.  I just noticed your post with the verse from Isaiah and I responded showing that's no evidence of the Bible calling Jesus God.

And what are you waiting for me to address?  Why am I always the last to know these things lol.

The article is by a Jew who knows Hebrew, to shut you guys up who keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't know Hebrew.  He addresses one of your misguided arguments about the word "LORD" in one of the verses that I posted earlier.

And here is what you said you'd do.  Your words, not mine.  I'm just waiting.  That's all.  

Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man.  Let me know.


Will respond to the others later, out of time for now.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 21, 2012, 07:43:07 AM
Here is the whole of Pslam 82:

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.


In John 10:34 Christ directly quotes Pslam 82:6 when discussing with the Pharisees his own claims of divinity:
John 10

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

It's that all important context that makes the difference.    ;)




God bless you, Man of Steel!  And Merry Christmas to you and your family!

(http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/man-of-steel-logo.jpg)

God bless you too, bigboobs!


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 21, 2012, 08:07:14 AM
The article is by a Jew who knows Hebrew, to shut you guys up who keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't know Hebrew.  He addresses one of your misguided arguments about the word "LORD" in one of the verses that I posted earlier.

And here is what you said you'd do.  Your words, not mine.  I'm just waiting.  That's all.  


Ahh, thanks for reminding me.  I haven't logged on much lately and didn't recall those posts, will try to address them during the holidays.

Still not reading your article unless you can summarize its main point in your own words.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 21, 2012, 08:29:59 AM
Ahh, thanks for reminding me.  I haven't logged on much lately and didn't recall those posts, will try to address them during the holidays.

Still not reading your article unless you can summarize its main point in your own words.

Ye ole classic sidestep....aka, the "Muslim Shuffle" LOL!!   "Hah-Cha-Cha!!  Hello my baby, hello my honey......"




Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 21, 2012, 08:52:39 AM
Ye ole classic sidestep....aka, the "Muslim Shuffle" LOL!!   "Hah-Cha-Cha!!  Hello my baby, hello my honey......"




Has nothing to do with being Muslim.  Just like you replied once to a video which Ahmed posted saying you're not going to spend the time viewing it.  Does that make it a "Christian Shuffle" lol?  I only have a given amount of time in a day for reading and posting online, so I base what I read on what interests me and the amount of time I have, so when something is condensed I'm much more inclined to read it due to the lack of time involved.

I can start posting links to lengthy pro-Islam articles and saying "aha!  Gotcha!  What's your response?!" and you and loco would likely not try to address it either.  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 21, 2012, 10:04:55 AM
Has nothing to do with being Muslim.  Just like you replied once to a video which Ahmed posted saying you're not going to spend the time viewing it.  Does that make it a "Christian Shuffle" lol?  I only have a given amount of time in a day for reading and posting online, so I base what I read on what interests me and the amount of time I have, so when something is condensed I'm much more inclined to read it due to the lack of time involved.

I can start posting links to lengthy pro-Islam articles and saying "aha!  Gotcha!  What's your response?!" and you and loco would likely not try to address it either.  

The difference was ahmed's video was a random posting, not part of a discussion....he said I needed to make time to watch it.  At that time I couldn't, but I later went back and watched it and spoke to ahmed about it.

loco's article was directly related to and complete justification for the discussion at hand.  Refusal to read copy and pasted material that fully validates a claim (because it's not in the poster's own words) has been a trademark move established by ahmed and adopted by you.....our Muslim bretheren.  Hence, the "Muslim Shuffle".  

Oh, I posted the full chapters because ahmed once accussed me of taking verses out of context.....I hadn't done anything of the sort, but agreed to post the full chapters during discussions to prevent such accusation.  I agreed to do so, ahmed did not; regardless, I'm just holding up my end of the bargain.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 21, 2012, 10:46:58 AM
The difference was ahmed's video was a random posting, not part of a discussion....he said I needed to make time to watch it.  At that time I couldn't, but I later went back and watched it and spoke to ahmed about it.

loco's article was directly related to and complete justification for the discussion at hand.  Refusal to read copy and pasted material that fully validates a claim (because it's not in the poster's own words) has been a trademark move established by ahmed and adopted by you.....our Muslim bretheren.  Hence, the "Muslim Shuffle".  

Oh, I posted the full chapters because ahmed once accussed me of taking verses out of context.....I hadn't done anything of the sort, but agreed to post the full chapters during discussions to prevent such accusation.  I agreed to do so, ahmed did not; regardless, I'm just holding up my end of the bargain.



You LIKE to call it "Muslim Shuffle" becuase it makes you feel like the article is validated, but unfortunately that's not the case.  Like I said, I don't care to read lengthy copy-pasted material, the same goes for the G&O board and others.  Doesn't make it a "shuffle" of any kind.  The questions I asked were pretty short and clear, I'm sure (if there is a valid answer) you or Loco could answer it briefly rather than pasting huge chunks of text from the internet.  That's something I don't do when making my arguments.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 21, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
Well what's funny is they found some Jew dude who speaks Hebrew and I don't get where and how they get 'validity' of any of their claims, I read the article it still does not advocate the trinity. They try to argue for 'multiplicity of God' and how even "Jehova" and Elohim are 'two personalities' so the 'possibility' of multiple 'godheads' or whatever he is not really arguing for them.

Contrary to orthodox Jewish understanding and literal hebrew understanding that the plurals are out of respect, just like in arabic and just like in aramaic.. and if i must mention just like in modern french. Royal plurals.

The bottom line is just as in deuteronomy hear oh israel your lord God is one. Jesus says in the new testatment when asked about the MOST important commandment.. hear oh israel OUR Lord God is ONE.

You seem to have found that 'lol' funny mentioning Deut.. but Jesus says the same thing.

You see... we can stick to simple facts... you on the other hand need ten million pages to justify yourself.. because no matter how much the trinity lie is repeated, it's still a lie. Saying God is ONE is the truth and far simpler, doesn't take much argumentation.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on December 21, 2012, 01:50:27 PM
Well what's funny is they found some Jew dude who speaks Hebrew and I don't get where and how they get 'validity' of any of their claims, I read the article it still does not advocate the trinity. They try to argue for 'multiplicity of God' and how even "Jehova" and Elohim are 'two personalities' so the 'possibility' of multiple 'godheads' or whatever he is not really arguing for them.

Contrary to orthodox Jewish understanding and literal hebrew understanding that the plurals are out of respect, just like in arabic and just like in aramaic.. and if i must mention just like in modern french. Royal plurals.

The bottom line is just as in deuteronomy hear oh israel your lord God is one. Jesus says in the new testatment when asked about the MOST important commandment.. hear oh israel OUR Lord God is ONE.

You seem to have found that 'lol' funny mentioning Deut.. but Jesus says the same thing.

You see... we can stick to simple facts... you on the other hand need ten million pages to justify yourself.. because no matter how much the trinity lie is repeated, it's still a lie. Saying God is ONE is the truth and far simpler, doesn't take much argumentation.

Thanks for the summary, you saved me about 10 mins or so had i read it.

The thing about your post which stuck out the most to me is how when one needs to explain that God is one, it just takes a few simple verses, but when one tries to explain that God is one in three persons, it takes huge articles with unlikely interpretations.  That's one of the reasons I'm always skeptical when I see a huge article in response to a simple question before I even read it.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 21, 2012, 03:13:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCOynC1xPAs


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 21, 2012, 03:19:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPclq5Tlgyg

I do not mean to offend any christains but please watch this vid.

many Jews know Allah is GOD. they ADMIT the muslims worship THE GOD OF ABRAHAM! and that christains do not! what people fail to understand is that ALLAH is god! jesus is a prophet. Allah is the God of Abraham.
 

this one two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrDPGypJHw


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 22, 2012, 07:00:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPclq5Tlgyg

I do not mean to offend any christains but please watch this vid.

many Jews know Allah is GOD. they ADMIT the muslims worship THE GOD OF ABRAHAM! and that christains do not! what people fail to understand is that ALLAH is god! jesus is a prophet. Allah is the God of Abraham.
 

this one two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrDPGypJHw

Still trying to bait the christians eh achmutt.

Allah is another name for satan. Its no suprise thqt allah and his ilk the muslim sheep are the most despised people on earth. Their lands are being taken. They are being rooted out if their holes like roaches exposed to the light.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 22, 2012, 09:35:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNTHms8pro


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Tyr on December 23, 2012, 03:26:11 PM
Still trying to bait the christians eh achmutt.

Allah is another name for satan. Its no suprise thqt allah and his ilk the muslim sheep are the most despised people on earth. Their lands are being taken. They are being rooted out if their holes like roaches exposed to the light.



Truebb93 is not achmed stefano. . He's pulled this crap before in his islam defense mode.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 23, 2012, 05:58:45 PM
Truebb93 is not achmed stefano.  He's pulled this crap before in his islam defense mode.

 LOL.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 23, 2012, 06:43:23 PM
It's funny they accused me of being samson/24kt/whoever else before.. i think also some 'richard' lmao...

eh.. they accused you of being me... now bobber. I've met bobber in real life btw, cool guy, and unlike some of these losers on here, he actually competed :) He is bigbobs on here. I wonder if some of these losers even work out... Anyways ignore the troll stefano and thick nick. They are sick in the head.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 24, 2012, 12:13:31 PM
cant you count?

Ahmed= Ahmed
           = Bigbobs
Truebb93=ME
Sherief=sherief
stingray=stingray
 
thats 5 DIFFRENT guys. not gimmicks.

infact YOU ARE A GIMMICK. Stefano is a gimmick of someone else whos too much of a punk to get onto their real account. for a coward gimmick Stefano aka Stephanie


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 24, 2012, 03:11:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGF1ceeM398


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 24, 2012, 03:23:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bRJfJw2WTE


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 24, 2012, 03:24:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 24, 2012, 03:39:40 PM
It's interesting as Bobber already mentioned the genealogy errors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5beZSE8gxo


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Tyr on December 24, 2012, 07:23:20 PM
cant you count?

Ahmed= Ahmed
           = Bigbobs
Truebb93=ME
Sherief=sherief
stingray=stingray
 
thats 5 DIFFRENT guys. not gimmicks.

infact YOU ARE A GIMMICK. Stefano is a gimmick of someone else whos too much of a punk to get onto their real account. for a coward gimmick Stefano aka Stephanie

Shut it bober. Remember when you pretended to be a jordanian called mamood or some shit to defend your nasser obsession? Since your real name was exposed you've resorted to a separate accounts to start attacks.
You've been playing this anti west pro west game for awhile with your muslim buddies. Did you add this truebb account to team nasser yet?

 You wanna play? lets play.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 24, 2012, 07:44:26 PM
So you're stefano ey? What a sad guy.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 24, 2012, 08:27:14 PM
tyr=stefano aka bitch boy.




Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 24, 2012, 08:38:52 PM
Shut it bober. Remember when you pretended to be a jordanian called mamood or some shit to defend your nasser obsession? Since your real name was exposed you've resorted to a separate accounts to start attacks.
You've been playing this anti west pro west game for awhile with your muslim buddies. Did you add this truebb account to team nasser yet?

 You wanna play? lets play.

I don't buy the bobber theory. Achmutt and truebb posts are very similar.

Here's what achmutt sadi about im joining getbig.


As I've already restated a few times, I was a lurker on here, registered out of curiosity to find out who this "GH15" fella was, then lurked around without posting much, then saw a bunch of ignorant posts attacking Islam and Muslims. Responded. Have been responding since.


Truebitch claims that he was a lurker and only joined because of his need to defend his religion.

Plus both have the same angle - take potshots at chritianity, post muslim vids claiming islam is superior etc its achmutt. Same guy different accounts
Maybe one account is a community account that this bobber also uses.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 24, 2012, 08:41:37 PM
So you're stefano ey? What a sad guy.

tyr=stefano aka bitch boy.


Oh oh. I've been exposed oh nooo!  . LOL.

So i gotcha so you try to connect me with some other poster. Nice try bitch boy.. yes singular not plural since you both are the same person.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 25, 2012, 06:00:08 AM
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=448596.0;attach=496743;image)

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 25, 2012, 12:22:23 PM
Okay what's the point of you copy pasting the exact same thing you already did with that ficticious non realistic photo? It's already been debated and refuted and put to rest.

Mary was chased down, accused, named names etc... for being an alleged adulteress. Jewish law condemns the daughter of a priest to be killed by burning, put to death. Etc.. As I must repeat myself, have you not read what the Talmud says about Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them both)

Do you think your fairy tale thinking has any connection to the reality of the Jews at the time? Nothing.

Just as christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and december 25th is a ficticious date that has nothin to do with when Jesus was actually burn (more likely around july-august, summer time) as according to scholars both of Christianity and Islam.

No matter how many times you repeat it does not make it true.

If you werer seeking the truth you would have watched the videos of a scholar of the bible who knows a hell of a lot more than you and actually touched and saw the actual parchments of the new testament to your displeasure and knows the fabrications and manipulations to the dot.

The trinitarianism and the worship of a human being -- Jesus the prophet of Nazareth -- came about through time, it did not originate in the teachings or sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) who like all past prophets emphasized to worship God only and that we all depend on God, that there is only one God, etc...


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 25, 2012, 12:37:48 PM
Okay what's the point of you copy pasting the exact same thing you already did with that ficticious non realistic photo? It's already been debated and refuted and put to rest.

Mary was chased down, accused, named names etc... for being an alleged adulteress. Jewish law condemns the daughter of a priest to be killed by burning, put to death. Etc.. As I must repeat myself, have you not read what the Talmud says about Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them both)

Do you think your fairy tale thinking has any connection to the reality of the Jews at the time? Nothing.

Just as christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and december 25th is a ficticious date that has nothin to do with when Jesus was actually burn (more likely around july-august, summer time) as according to scholars both of Christianity and Islam.

No matter how many times you repeat it does not make it true.

If you werer seeking the truth you would have watched the videos of a scholar of the bible who knows a hell of a lot more than you and actually touched and saw the actual parchments of the new testament to your displeasure and knows the fabrications and manipulations to the dot.

The trinitarianism and the worship of a human being -- Jesus the prophet of Nazareth -- came about through time, it did not originate in the teachings or sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) who like all past prophets emphasized to worship God only and that we all depend on God, that there is only one God, etc...

Please dispense with your meltdownachmutt. Islam rides off chrisitianity to give it legitimacy. No matter how many times you try to refute that fact you fail.


On the subject of fairy tales muhamhamed climed to have spoken to god in a cave. That should be taken as factual? The koran was cobbled together using other religions as its basis. Just becuase you are too stupid to see that is no one elses fault but your own.

All you have is your biased websites and not one iota of facts to back up your arguements.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 25, 2012, 01:35:55 PM
Please dispense with your meltdownachmutt. Islam rides off chrisitianity to give it legitimacy. No matter how many times you try to refute that fact you fail.


On the subject of fairy tales muhamhamed climed to have spoken to god in a cave. That should be taken as factual? The koran was cobbled together using other religions as its basis. Just becuase you are too stupid to see that is no one elses fault but your own.

All you have is your biased websites and not one iota of facts to back up your arguements.


You just owned yourself real bad. I am glad that your ignorance and anger is self explanatory.

Unlike yourself with YOUR biased and ignorant lack of knowledge of islam that you gather from idiot websites that slander and lie about Islam. I don't need a website. I learned about Islam from Islam.. wait what? How about reading the qur'an? Reading the original sources teaching islam?

You're a fool.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 25, 2012, 01:49:35 PM

You just owned yourself real bad. I am glad that your ignorance and anger is self explanatory.

Unlike yourself with YOUR biased and ignorant lack of knowledge of islam that you gather from idiot websites that slander and lie about Islam. I don't need a website. I learned about Islam from Islam.. wait what? How about reading the qur'an? Reading the original sources teaching islam?

You're a fool.

Owned yourself? More likely i owned you bitch boy since you beleive the dusty rantings of the thief and pedo

I'm glad you acknowldged your own biases and follishness in your many failed responses. Your understanding of islam is that of ranting lunatic hellbent on trying to convince others to join him in his delusion.

I can. Understand ypur anger though. After being exposed as a liar and a dishonest individual leeching off canada repeatedly its only natural that you would rant after being told the truth about yourself.

Maybe thats why you choose to inject yourself with drugs...to combat the depression and inner disgust you feel whenever ypu see yourself in the mirror. ;D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 25, 2012, 02:55:06 PM
lol oh the irony of owning yourself and not realizing it :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 25, 2012, 05:20:27 PM
lol oh the irony of owning yourself and not realizing it :)

Thats funny because that statement applies to you. Fits to a T.

Try rereading all your posts and you'll see how many times you were destroyed in every statement you made by everyone you debated with. Then again you've lied so many times in the attempt to cover up the posion your religion is that i wonder if you'd ever see the truth.  Then again your common sense guage is broken so your idiocy may not be as readily transparent to you.
Thats ok.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 25, 2012, 06:01:05 PM
lol oh the irony of owning yourself and not realizing it :)

Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 25, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
Thats funny because that statement applies to you. Fits to a T.

Try rereading all your posts and you'll see how many times you were destroyed in every statement you made by everyone you debated with. Then again you've lied so many times in the attempt to cover up the posion your religion is that i wonder if you'd ever see the truth.  Then again your common sense guage is broken so your idiocy may not be as readily transparent to you.
Thats ok.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! LOOK WHOS TALKING!

(http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.gif)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 25, 2012, 06:03:21 PM
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself

Its about time. I wondred ho long it would be before you switched accounts.

Did you hear the one about muHAMed And his pork aversion.

King pig muhahahmed in da house.
Let a jihadist play


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 25, 2012, 06:04:33 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! LOOK WHOS TALKING!

(http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.gif)

Hmm. So ypu're saying that your achmutt account is equally ludicrous as i am? Brilliant analogy einstein.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 25, 2012, 10:00:10 PM
Hmm. So ypu're saying that your achmutt account is equally ludicrous as i am? Brilliant analogy einstein.

No, thats not what I am saying. I just found it funny a person like yourself can dare say someone elses common sense gauge is broken.

your losing this battle  8) keep it up, your running out of steam  :D you cant win and you know it  ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 26, 2012, 08:04:13 AM
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=448596.0;attach=496743;image)

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God Bless!!


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 26, 2012, 08:39:05 AM
No, thats not what I am saying. I just found it funny a person like yourself can dare say someone elses common sense gauge is broken.

your losing this battle  8) keep it up, your running out of steam  :D you cant win and you know it  ;)

Poor achmutt. I se your common sene gauge remains unfixed. You posted a pick of a pot and kettl calling each other black whn BOTH are black. If you're trying to make a point at least the appropriate pics. :-\

I'm losing this battle? Thats funny because you continue to own yourself making these ridicuous statements so i don't have much work to do. You destroy yourself even more effectively achmutt with all your excuses and huff and puff rants.

They say never interupt a muslim when he's making an ass of himself so carry on. ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 26, 2012, 08:46:05 AM
I think we need some moderatoin in this section. Where are the so called mods? This tool stefano is just trolling throwing insults and ugly demeanor. He has no interest in religious discussion or anything of the sorts.

And being a gimmick this should be put to a stop. His stupendous claims of others being gimmicks/double accounts should be exposed for the fact that he is someone's gimmick on here. Mods can certainly verify IP addresses of who is who.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 26, 2012, 08:53:32 AM
I think we need some moderatoin in this section. Where are the so called mods? This tool stefano is just trolling throwing insults and ugly demeanor. He has no interest in religious discussion or anything of the sorts.

And being a gimmick this should be put to a stop. His stupendous claims of others being gimmicks/double accounts should be exposed for the fact that he is someone's gimmick on here. Mods can certainly verify IP addresses of who is who.
Oh you're right ahmed, we do need some clean up on this board.  I'll start cleaning up the threads and ugly demeanor shortly.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 26, 2012, 09:48:21 AM
I think we need some moderatoin in this section. Where are the so called mods? This tool stefano is just trolling throwing insults and ugly demeanor. He has no interest in religious discussion or anything of the sorts.

And being a gimmick this should be put to a stop. His stupendous claims of others being gimmicks/double accounts should be exposed for the fact that he is someone's gimmick on here. Mods can certainly verify IP addresses of who is who.

Stefano is someones gimmick. who then accuses me of being a gimmick because he himself is a big enough loser to go around on diffrent accounts, so he thinks everyone else is too. He claims to be atheist yet alwas defends christians. makes you go hmmmm....


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 26, 2012, 02:21:33 PM
Stefano is someones gimmick. who then accuses me of being a gimmick because he himself is a big enough loser to go around on diffrent accounts, so he thinks everyone else is too. He claims to be atheist yet alwas defends christians. makes you go hmmmm....

I defend christians because they at least conduct themselves in a civil manner. They arent trying to start shit with other religions or to claim they are superior.

Someones gimmick. Lol . Considering how many accounts you must have created to push this pro muslim angle that is laughable. Thats why you're crying foul niw once your game has been exposed. You can no longer troll unchallenged. No wonder you are begging for help. I've exposed your muslim propoganda and posted my own responses as have others. You don't want a debate. You just want to push throuh your own bigoted views unchallenged. Too bad that didnt work out the way you expected it to :D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 26, 2012, 03:25:25 PM
If I'm off from work the rest of this week and the majority of next....this board will be cleaned up a bit during that time.   ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 26, 2012, 03:40:22 PM
If I'm off from work the rest of this week and the majority of next....this board will be cleaned up a bit during that time.   ;)

Thanks. Its time to bring in a civilized debate not just one religion trying to claim superiority.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 26, 2012, 06:16:06 PM
Thanks. Its time to bring in a civilized debate not just one religion trying to claim superiority.

I am ready for a civilized debate. But your a scumbag, you go around slandering islam , the things you have said are purely disgusting and now you come here pretending like its the "muslim bullies" who are attacking you. If your ready for a CIVILIZED DEBATE then Im ready anytime  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 26, 2012, 06:33:55 PM
I am ready for a civilized debate. But your a scumbag, you go around slandering islam , the things you have said are purely disgusting and now you come here pretending like its the "muslim bullies" who are attacking you. If your ready for a CIVILIZED DEBATE then Im ready anytime  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

First start by acting civilized instead of a relgion spouting moron. You started this routine with your christianity slandering  attacks. Don't start whimpering like a beaten rat when you got exposed. Your pathetic excuses are a waste of time. Go push your pro islamic agenda elsewhere achmutt.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 27, 2012, 07:56:42 AM
Christians believe in one God.  Christians worship one God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 11:03:50 AM
Christians believe in one God.  Christians worship one God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E00kCTCQOuU

Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 11:16:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E00kCTCQOuU

Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Who are the old Christians?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 27, 2012, 11:20:21 AM
The early jews who were the followers of Jesus aka the early true christians that were killed off by the likes of the church for example because they were deemed heretics for not accepting the trinity.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
If God = "I am" then Jesus' quote becomes "before Abraham was born, God!”
This definitely is far from Jesus claiming to be God.



Jesus is claiming to be God in John 8:58, the same 'I AM' that spoke to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and the Jews understood this very well.  That is why "At this, they picked up stones to stone him" - John 8:59

John 10
New Living Translation (NLT)

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice. 5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.”

6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me[a] were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. 9 Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. 10 The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don’t belong to him and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he’s working only for the money and doesn’t really care about the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

17 “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. 18 No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

19 When he said these things, the people[c] were again divided in their opinions about him. 20 Some said, “He’s demon possessed and out of his mind. Why listen to a man like that?” 21 Others said, “This doesn’t sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Jesus Claims to Be the Son of God
22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah, the Festival of Dedication. 23 He was in the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The people surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. 26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.[d] No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

31 Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. 32 Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?”

33 They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures[e] that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’[f] 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world. 37 Don’t believe me unless I carry out my Father’s work. 38 But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.”

39 Once again they tried to arrest him, but he got away and left them. 40 He went beyond the Jordan River near the place where John was first baptizing and stayed there awhile. 41 And many followed him. “John didn’t perform miraculous signs,” they remarked to one another, “but everything he said about this man has come true.” 42 And many who were there believed in Jesus.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 11:29:03 AM
The early jews who were the followers of Jesus aka the early true christians that were killed off by the likes of the church for example because they were deemed heretics for not accepting the trinity.

They did not accept the trinity; therefore, they don't accept Jesus Christ is God, correct?  Why did these early jews follow Christ?   


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 27, 2012, 11:44:28 AM
Because they knew he was the messiah and the followed the law as Jesus commanded and did as well. Naturally they did not worship a human being but worshiped God as they were thought and as was per revelations and not what later writers, scribes and the church invented.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 27, 2012, 11:45:06 AM

Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 12:00:06 PM
Because they knew he was the messiah and the followed the law as Jesus commanded and did as well.

So they claimed him as messiah or their savior or redeemer?  What did they believe Christ was redeeming them from and how would Christ accomplish his act of redemption?

Also, did these groups of early Christians that denied Christ's divinity and the trinity have a specific group or order name(s)?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 12:06:48 PM
There are a few things people must understand before hand to understand the whole picture

the Word ALLAH means GOD. Many people think it means somthing else, its simply not true. when a Muslim person say "ya allah" it means "oh god". Only with this in mind can you move on to understand the rest. Allah simply means GOD.

I assume you guys havent read the Bibile in its orginal language? If you have you would see JESUS refers to GOD as ALLAH(in a slighty diffrent way of pronoucation, hence why I also post the video of the jewish guy explaining what ALLAH means.)  

I have to go but will be back to explain more, but i would suggest watching this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TEtGyGI78k

the word MUSLIM means subbmission to GOD, thats all it means, One who submits to GOD


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 12:18:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y

Listen to what this guy says. he says the prostration is fom early chrsitan practices


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 27, 2012, 12:29:38 PM
TrueBB93, do you have anything to offer like your own ideas, beliefs, studies, etc., or do you just post videos?  Is your knowledge and belief based on YouTube?

As you can see by all the Bible verses that I posted, your video above lied about "the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!"

Don't believe everything you see on YouTube.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 27, 2012, 12:35:40 PM
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.

^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.

Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.

The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are  trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 27, 2012, 12:39:34 PM
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.

^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.

Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.

The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are  trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.

Who cares about these councils?  How about addressing all of the Bible passages that I have posted, that support the Trinity and where Jesus claims to be God? 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 12:56:59 PM
There are a few things people must understand before hand to understand the whole picture

the Word ALLAH means GOD. Many people think it means somthing else, its simply not true. when a Muslim person say "ya allah" it means "oh god". Only with this in mind can you move on to understand the rest. Allah simply means GOD.

I assume you guys havent read the Bibile in its orginal language? If you have you would see JESUS refers to GOD as ALLAH(in a slighty diffrent way of pronoucation, hence why I also post the video of the jewish guy explaining what ALLAH means.) 

I have to go but will be back to explain more, but i would suggest watching this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TEtGyGI78k

the word MUSLIM means subbmission to GOD, thats all it means, One who submits to GOD

I find it interesting that NT scripture has no mention of Christ speaking as a newborn....pretty fantastic event noted in the Quran; yet, no mention whatsoever in the bible.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:04:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y

Listen to what this guy says. he says the prostration is fom early chrsitan practices

Within biblical scripture we find descriptions of folks kneeling, standing with hands lifted, standing without hands lifted, bowing and prostrating themselves in prayer.  Those prostrating themselves such as Abraham, Job and even Christ were doing so under extreme stress.  Christ fell prostrate in the garden due to the weight of mankind's sin upon him.  Nowhere in biblical scripture are believers commanded to remain prostrate or in any specific position while in prayer.  I see no problem in the act of prostration in prayer, but it's not commanded.  Many times I've taken a knee(s) in prayer or have had hands held high or been bent over in prayer. 

What of those believers unable to prostrate themselves in prayer, but pray earnestly nonetheless.  Are their prayers not truly prayers because of their inability to prostrate themselves?  Are honesty, humility and content less important than remaining prostrate?   


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:09:14 PM
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

A few more:

John 10:31-33
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”  33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”




Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:18:53 PM
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.

^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.

Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.

The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are  trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.

The early Christians were men and women such as Mary, Peter, James, Paul, Timothy, John, etc....these folks lived with and experienced the risen Christ for themselves.   3rd century councils with their own agenda do not represent the majority of Christians then or today....neither do today's Unitarians so often referred to.  They are fringe groups like the Carpocratians, Ebionites or Basilideans that simply do not represent Christ or the whole of his church.  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 01:22:24 PM
Within biblical scripture we find descriptions of folks kneeling, standing with hands lifted, standing without hands lifted, bowing and prostrating themselves in prayer.  Those prostrating themselves such as Abraham, Job and even Christ were doing so under extreme stress.  Christ fell prostrate in the garden due to the weight of mankind's sin upon him.  Nowhere in biblical scripture are believers commanded to remain prostrate or in any specific position while in prayer.  I see no problem in the act of prostration in prayer, but it's not commanded.  Many times I've taken a knee(s) in prayer or have had hands held high or been bent over in prayer. 

What of those believers unable to prostrate themselves in prayer, but pray earnestly nonetheless.  Are their prayers not truly prayers because of their inability to prostrate themselves?  Are honesty, humility and content less important than remaining prostrate?   

In Prayer honestly and sincerity is first, without with there is no prayer. 2nd prostrating is the most imporant part of prayer and the action which brings one closest to God, now if a man cannot prostrate he should do what he can, . if your healthy do the full prayer, if injured or sick do as much as you can sitting down or lying down, if completely unable to move, then move your eyes up and down.  do what ever you can. prostration is very important.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 01:25:51 PM
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 01:29:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA

3:39-4:47(go to 6:00 if you got the time)

take a look bro.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:34:12 PM
In Prayer honestly and sincerity is first, without with there is no prayer. 2nd prostrating is the most imporant part of prayer and the action which brings one closest to God, now if a man cannot prostrate he should do what he can, . if your healthy do the full prayer, if injured or sick do as much as you can sitting down or lying down, if completely unable to move, then move your eyes up and down.  do what ever you can. prostration is very important.

Prostration is an element of prayer in Islam, but it is not a commandment in biblical scripture.  The content of prayer is specified in scripture, but specific body positioning or gyrations are a man made convention most specifically attributed to Islam.  The description of early Jews and Christians falling prostrate in prayer was due to extreme stress or being overcome by the presence of God....it wasn't a divine mandate. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:36:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA

3:39-4:47(go to 6:00 if you got the time)

take a look bro.

Yes, I'm completely aware of Islam's position on the apostle Paul's "pagan ministry" and the denial of his revelation from Christ.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Prostration is an element of prayer in Islam, but it is not a commandment in biblical scripture.  The content of prayer is specified in scripture, but specific body positioning or gyrations are a man made convention most specifically attributed to Islam.  The description of early Jews and Christians falling prostrate in prayer was due to extreme stress or being overcome by the presence of God....it wasn't a divine mandate.  

but its like this man, the Jews were commanded to do it, muslims are commanded to do it. Chrisitans believe in Moses right? how how does the act of prostration dissapear?

Jews=prostrate
early follows of jesus=prostrate
modern christians=dont
muslims=prostrate

these religions all come from the same origin right? how did prostration become lost? also why are their so many diffrent versions of the bible? the true word of God dosent have versions I am i right?


my point is Paul came in and changed things. many things modern christians do is becuase of none-other then Paul, Jesus himself never said to do it, or other things Jesus said Do it but modern christians dont becuase of changes that happend overtime.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 01:41:28 PM
by the way i just wanted to say im glad we can have a respectful civil disscussion bro  :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?
Christ's crucifixion was outlined in OT prophecy (his death was of divine origin), the Sanhedrin claimed Christ broke Mosaic law, the Sanhedrin was afraid Christ was creating an uprising in the surrounding community (and were limiting their authority), the Sanhedrin was upset because Christ claimed to be God (blasphemy in essence). 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
but its like this man, the Jews were commanded to do it, muslims are commanded to do it. Chrisitans believe in Moses right? how how does the act of prostration dissapear?

Jews=prostrate
early follows of jesus=prostrate
modern christians=dont
muslims=prostrate

these religions all come from the same origin right? how did prostration become lost? also why are their so many diffrent versions of the bible? the true word of God dosent have versions I am i right?


my point is Paul came in and changed things. many things modern christians do is becuase of none-other then Paul, Jesus himself never said to do it, or other things Jesus said Do it but modern christians dont becuase of changes that happend overtime.



I hear you, I really do.  Again, I find nothing wrong whatsoever with prostration in prayer, but the fact remains that there is no specific biblical scripture or divine commandment that I know of that requires prostration or specific bodily gyrations while in prayer.  The jews may have prostrated themselves (and Islam since adopted that practice), but that desire to do so was based on their man made practices and not something outlined by God.  

Paul discussed lifting hands in prayer, but he did not do away with the divine commandment to prostrate oneself because that commandment did not exist....it's a man made convention.  A respectful convention, but not a requirement.  Scripture discusses the appropriate content of prayer, not body positioning.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 01:53:44 PM
by the way i just wanted to say im glad we can have a respectful civil disscussion bro  :)

It's all good, I don't hate my Muslim brothers and sisters LOL!   ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 27, 2012, 03:41:08 PM
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?
Yes, to die for our sins  ;) 8)

How dare you guys battle it out without me ;D

Hey MOS get me in this fight, lol  :D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 27, 2012, 04:25:29 PM
Very nice. The boards been cleaned up. All the rubbish threads removed. Good job mods.

Keep it respectful and sensible without this " my religion is better than yours"  crap.



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 27, 2012, 04:28:14 PM
Is this some kind of joke? You deleted the threads which were islamic lectures to teach people about islam.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 27, 2012, 04:44:14 PM
Anyone who wants to find out about other religions can do their own research.

 This is a discussion forum not video viewing site.  

 Videos don't always present the truth since the poster can selectively choose videos that represent HIS point of view which may not be THE truth but rather HIS interpretation of what the truth is.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 27, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
Is this some kind of joke? You deleted the threads which were islamic lectures to teach people about islam.

Not a thing has been deleted by me.   Educational videos on Islam were merged and stickied...did you a favor actually....now they are more visible....you're welcome.   Some video threads that had pages of discussion were left untouched (ex: the converts to Islam video thread).  All other non video, Islam related threads were left untouched.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 08:10:50 PM
Anyone who wants to find out about other religions can do their own research.

 This is a discussion forum not video viewing site.  

 Videos don't always present the truth since the poster can selectively choose videos that represent HIS point of view which may not be THE truth but rather HIS interpretation of what the truth is.

No. These men in the videos have been studying Islam, Judism and Christianity for 10,20,30 even 40 years! Some of these men have been every religion known to man! they have seen, heard, read it all! they are the most qulified to talk about them.

also its much eaiser to get your point across using videos, If i want to describe you the story of jesus is it eaiser for me to write and essay on here? that would take 20 minutes? or just link a vid an say "skip to 4:00-6:30"?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 08:12:42 PM
Is this some kind of joke? You deleted the threads which were islamic lectures to teach people about islam.

Ahmed, as much as their ton of ignorant,disrespectful anti-islamic idiots on here, Man Of Steel dosent seem to be one of them, Im sure he wouldnt worng us by deleteing all of the islamic stuff.

man of steel seems like a good guy.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
Yes, to die for our sins  ;) 8)

How dare you guys battle it out without me ;D

Hey MOS get me in this fight, lol  :D

haha, good to have you Onetime, grab a sword and shield and jump into the arena, lol this section really has been a battle zone!

but all jokes aside, respectful civil debate is alwas good.

and I strongly disagree with the underlined  :D but im sure you expected that  ;)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Stefano on December 27, 2012, 08:46:17 PM
No. These men in the videos have been studying Islam, Judism and Christianity for 10,20,30 even 40 years! Some of these men have been every religion known to man! they have seen, heard, read it all! they are the most qulified to talk about them.

also its much eaiser to get your point across using videos, If i want to describe you the story of jesus is it eaiser for me to write and essay on here? that would take 20 minutes? or just link a vid an say "skip to 4:00-6:30"?

They belong to one specific religion so clearly they wouldnt be biased right? Seen, heard and read it all?   ::)


The point is this is a discussion forum so you should be able to summarize the key points not ramble on or use slanted vids to make your point. Maybe you lack the intelligence to put it in your words. That would make sense.

now there is a separste section where you can post all your isamic propaganda and slanted views without littering the entire board with this rubbbish.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 09:44:59 PM
They belong to one specific religion so clearly they wouldnt be biased right? Seen, heard and read it all?   ::)


The point is this is a discussion forum so you should be able to summarize the key points not ramble on or use slanted vids to make your point. Maybe you lack the intelligence to put it in your words. That would make sense.

now there is a separste section where you can post all your isamic propaganda and slanted views without littering the entire board with this rubbbish.

yes, those men are WAY smarter then me, Allah has given them much more knowledge then me Mashallah. why are you so against using videos?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 27, 2012, 09:50:46 PM
TrueBB93, do you have anything to offer like your own ideas, beliefs, studies, etc., or do you just post videos?  Is your knowledge and belief based on YouTube?
As you can see by all the Bible verses that I posted, your video above lied about "the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!"

Don't believe everything you see on YouTube.

again you fail to understand the point of the videos my friend. these videos are lectures from famous scholars of islam/other religions.

what sounds more credible? Me(truebb93) say somthing or a famous scholar who studied all religions for decades? if i said "early christians pray like muslims" you would say "ahh hes lying" but if i post a vid of christian monks praying like muslims and jews then the evidence is more soild...see what i mean?

btw i have a question for you bro, why are there so many diffrent versions of the bible?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 28, 2012, 05:11:06 AM
haha, good to have you Onetime, grab a sword and shield and jump into the arena, lol this section really has been a battle zone!

but all jokes aside, respectful civil debate is alwas good.

and I strongly disagree with the underlined  :D but im sure you expected that  ;)
;D

Of course, I enjoy the debates, but when the name calling starts I am out, lol. Let me review the thread first to see what has been discussed and see everyone's position.

 In the mean time keep this in mind; One billion people are interpreting the scriptures as Jesus is the son of God and is part of the Holy trinity, on the other hand we have a billion Muslims who are not interpreting the scripture in that manner.

 Also keep in mind there are millions of Christians who are university scholars who are far smarter then you and Ahmed in the English, Hebrew and Greek language who interpret the scripture as Jesus being the son of God and part of the Holy trinity

and also millions of Muslims who are also university scholars that are a lot smarter then myself and MOS in the English, Greek and Hebrew language that do not interpret the scriptures in this manner.

Why I point this out? cause I am seeing a lot of this;.... "see this verse, well this what this means and see this verse this is what this means" and the rebuttals, 'well no, it does not mean that, it means this", Now with a millions scholars on both sides of the fence backing them up no one can expect anything out of this type of argument, we would simply be going in circles, but nevertheless I will review the thread and offer my 4 cents.

My words are worth double yours  :P


Just kidding bro  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 05:42:22 AM
Hi TrueBB93!  Care to address this, without posting videos or articles you did not write?  Thank you!


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 05:46:28 AM


Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


Ahmed already addressed this when describing the royal plural.

Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

The very word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) used of the true God in Genesis 1:26 is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language.

So not only does Genesis 1:26 offer support for the Trinity, but also the name Elohim itself in its singularity offers support for One True God, yet at the same time in its plurality offers support for three persons in the one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are mentioned later in the Bible:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 05:46:58 AM


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.

Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.


Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord.  Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God.  The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)

See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ."  This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.


"LORD" in Genesis 18 and 19 refers to God:

Genesis 18:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.

Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 05:47:54 AM


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


If God = "I am" then Jesus' quote becomes "before Abraham was born, God!”
This definitely is far from Jesus claiming to be God.


Jesus is claiming to be God in John 8:58, the same 'I AM' that spoke to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and the Jews understood this very well.  That is why "At this, they picked up stones to stone him" - John 8:59


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 09:40:54 AM


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


Someitmes to show solidarity with my wife I say "My wife and I are one."  This does not mean we are literally one being.  But I'm guessing you're also thinking that the fact the opponents started throwing stones on Jesus and saying "because you, a mere man, claim to be God" is evidence.  However, you conveniently skipped the verses before and after this excerpt.  Looking before, verse 24 shows that the Jews were asking him if he is the Christ (not asking him if he was God), to which he confirmed that he is (note Christ does not equal God because the title is used for other humans (Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus of Persian is called God's Christ, just one example).  So they ask Jesus if he is Christ and he replies Yes, then they stone him and accuse him of claiming to be God.  In response (in verse 34) "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods?"  If he called them "gods" to whom the word of God came - and the scripture cannot be broken - what about one whom the Father setapart as his very own and sent into the world.  Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son?"  So here Jesus explains that even if he had said something which they misinterpreted to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God (ex. confirming that he is Christ), they should realise that some human beings were called "gods" in the Bible (ex. Psalms 82:6-8) which shows God has honoured some human beings by calling them "gods."  This is just a figurative expression, but Jesus was reminding the Jews who were stoning him so that they should understand that even if he says something that they take as him claiming to be god, they should take it as a figurative expression.


In his own words, Jesus claimed that he and God the Father are one and the same:

John 10:30-33
"I and the Father are one."

If there were any doubts that Jesus is claiming here to be God,

John 10:30-33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

The rest of your argument does not make any sense.  The Jews already knew that Christ(Messiah) does not equal God, yet they were stoning Jesus for claiming to be God.  They said so themselves.

And in John 10:34-39, which you quoted in your argument, Jesus claims to be "the one whom the Father set apart as his very own" and in the same passage Jesus also claims to be "God’s Son."  So Jesus is clearly above those whom God called "gods" in Psalm 82:6.  So your argument and Bible passages actually work against you.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 10:17:53 AM


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


But in John 5:37 Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time.  1 John 4:12 also says that no one has ever seen God.  If Jesus was God, then whoever has seen Jesus would have seen God.  The verses above you posted, saying "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" mean that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus taught about God.


I actually agree with you here, but only because your argument actually supports the Trinity and also supports that Jesus is God the Son.

There are many verses in the Old Testament that say that no one has seen God, yet there are also many verses that talk about people having seen God, like Abraham and Moses for example.

If the people of the Old Testament were seeing God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Though Jesus is not God the Father, Jesus is God the Son.  Seeing Jesus is the closest thing to seeing God the Father, because Jesus and the Father are one God.

John 10:30-33
I and the Father are one.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 28, 2012, 10:33:42 AM
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?

I am not Man of Steel, but I'll answer your question.

If you are asking why God the Father sent his Son Jesus to be put upon the cross, and why Jesus allowed himself to be put upon the cross, then the answer is

To Die For Our Sins.

If you are asking why the people put Jesus upon the cross, then the answer is

Because Jesus Claimed To Be God.

John 19:6-7
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”  But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:11;16-18
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 28, 2012, 11:48:11 AM
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 28, 2012, 11:55:18 AM
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?
YES. KJV

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 2 Timothy 3:16




Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 28, 2012, 01:34:50 PM
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?

I believe the bible is absolutely inspired by God.....the bible is the living word of God.  Is it word-for-word from God?  No, that's too strong a statement to claim.  That would mean that every word was written by God and handed to man in some type of permanent, printed form by God with no intermediaries or helpers involved whatsoever in the collecting, communicating, documenting or transcribing process.  In essence, a final work would have to be handed by God to man with no intervention on part of man for it to be considered word-for-word from God thereby containing no other possible influence.  I simply can't make that claim.  The bible had multiple authors, all fully inspired by God which allowed them to breathe divine life into the scriptures despite each author writing in their own style yet creating a harmonious collection of books.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 28, 2012, 01:40:47 PM
I believe the bible is absolutely inspired by God.....the bible is the living word of God.  Is it word-for-word from God?  No, that's too strong a statement to claim.  That would mean that every word was written by God and handed to man in some type of permanent, printed form by God with no intermediaries or helpers involved whatsoever in the collecting, communicating, documenting or transcribing process.  In essence, a final work would have to be handed by God to man with no intervention on part of man for it to be considered word-for-word from God thereby containing no other possible influence.  I simply can't make that claim.  The bible had multiple authors, all fully inspired by God which allowed them to breathe divine life into the scriptures despite each author writing in their own style yet creating a harmonious collection of books.
I could be wrong but I don`t think that is what he meant but if he did, just to clarify my post, I hold the same view MOS does. Now the bottom line is; sense it is inspired by God, it has no errors. Everything written within is the truth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 28, 2012, 01:50:49 PM
I could be wrong but I don`t think that is what he meant but if he did, just to clarify my post, I hold the same view MOS does. Now the bottom line is; sense it is inspired by God, it has no errors. Everything written within is the truth.

Yeah, I had to make an inference based on the question because I wasn't certain. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: tbombz on December 28, 2012, 06:40:13 PM
everything is inspired by god, if god exists.

so obviously the bible is" inspired" by god.

so was the koran, scientology, darwins the origin of species. and mein kampf too. 

but the bible contains wisdom! the bible makes yoru heart set on fire and eyes open wide! surely this means it is divine and to be taken as the word of god.


but the thing is..   alot of stuff can set your heart on fire and make your eyes open wide. lots of things can bring you closer to god.

a touching movie, a beautiful sunset, the hug of a loved one. etc.

so some dudes from way back in the day (a time when people were more in touch with nature) wrote some fables, tried their best to make them wise and feel like truth so that when people would read them they would come closer to god, and then they went and actually told people that their fables were sent from god and passed them off as 'the bible".   

and now billions of people have spent their life thinking that because the bible has wisdom and sets their heart on fire and helps bring them closer to god, that its really sent directly from god and to be taken literally as "his" word.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 28, 2012, 08:13:01 PM
just wondering have any of you ever listend to a Quran recitation before?

also can you tell me why the bible has so many diffrent versions?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 28, 2012, 10:55:05 PM
everything is inspired by god, if god exists.

so obviously the bible is" inspired" by god.

so was the koran, scientology, darwins the origin of species. and mein kampf too. 

but the bible contains wisdom! the bible makes yoru heart set on fire and eyes open wide! surely this means it is divine and to be taken as the word of god.


but the thing is..   alot of stuff can set your heart on fire and make your eyes open wide. lots of things can bring you closer to god.

a touching movie, a beautiful sunset, the hug of a loved one. etc.

so some dudes from way back in the day (a time when people were more in touch with nature) wrote some fables, tried their best to make them wise and feel like truth so that when people would read them they would come closer to god, and then they went and actually told people that their fables were sent from god and passed them off as 'the bible".   

and now billions of people have spent their life thinking that because the bible has wisdom and sets their heart on fire and helps bring them closer to god, that its really sent directly from god and to be taken literally as "his" word.
Bro that is not what is meant by ``inspired by God``. The author that wrote that verse above in second Timothy did not intend that verse to mean what you wrote. The discussion at hand has nothing to do with what is written in your post.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 29, 2012, 11:41:26 AM
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?

I will gladly answer your question, after you address this, in your own words.   


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 30, 2012, 09:00:29 AM
^You can only fool other ignorant and uneducated people by repeating the same non-sense over and over again.

Historical facts prove that the trinity is a made up belief after Jesus (pbuh). You just don't want your audience to know that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbfKMLIhOdw


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 30, 2012, 12:07:06 PM
^You can only fool other ignorant and uneducated people by repeating the same non-sense over and over again.

Historical facts prove that the trinity is a made up belief after Jesus (pbuh). You just don't want your audience to know that.



How about addressing the Bible instead of posting videos?

Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 30, 2012, 12:17:14 PM
I already tore apart your selective quotations and posted totally opposing verses that destroy the trinity in every shape and form. I just stopped caring of doing it over and over again since you are just copy pasting the exact same thing yourself thinking some other people will not know what those verses are or what those opposing verses that I posted were, etc... etc... It gets lame.

Why post videos? Because they get the point across as well. People who just might be more qualified than you or I, might know more than you or I, might have qualifications more than you and I. Just as truebb93 said, scholars of islam and christianity who have touched, smelt and felt the actual parchments, speak konic greek, hebrew, arabic, latin, etc... amongst various other qualifications. Who know the history intimately; such as in the case of the development and formation of trinitarianism.

The fact is. The trinity did not exist, was not thought by Jesus, it was something formulated and codified hundreds of years after Jesus. It is not the revealed word of God. This is the fact you will not accept as it ruins any of your man worshipping.

Likewise with the bible, the very same story you may or might quote, will be contradicted in other book of the bible. It has little to no credibility thus and the stories are combined to get things across.

That scholar of the bible knows how the bible was formed, changed, manipulated and that's why i posted his videos as he illustrates the various contradictions and manipulations dead on. To showcase as well how the belief in the trinity was developed over time and how ideas were implemented over time to justify this new found doctrine.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 30, 2012, 01:51:32 PM
I already tore apart your selective quotations and posted totally opposing verses that destroy the trinity in every shape and form. I just stopped caring of doing it over and over again since you are just copy pasting the exact same thing yourself thinking some other people will not know what those verses are or what those opposing verses that I posted were, etc... etc... It gets lame.

Why post videos? Because they get the point across as well. People who just might be more qualified than you or I, might know more than you or I, might have qualifications more than you and I. Just as truebb93 said, scholars of islam and christianity who have touched, smelt and felt the actual parchments, speak konic greek, hebrew, arabic, latin, etc... amongst various other qualifications. Who know the history intimately; such as in the case of the development and formation of trinitarianism.

The fact is. The trinity did not exist, was not thought by Jesus, it was something formulated and codified hundreds of years after Jesus. It is not the revealed word of God. This is the fact you will not accept as it ruins any of your man worshipping.

Likewise with the bible, the very same story you may or might quote, will be contradicted in other book of the bible. It has little to no credibility thus and the stories are combined to get things across.

That scholar of the bible knows how the bible was formed, changed, manipulated and that's why i posted his videos as he illustrates the various contradictions and manipulations dead on. To showcase as well how the belief in the trinity was developed over time and how ideas were implemented over time to justify this new found doctrine.

I am sorry, a_ahmed, but I really do not see where you "tore apart" the multitude of Bible passages that I posted supporting the Trinity and Jesus Christ's deity.  All I remember you saying was something about a royal plurality or something like that.  That hardly tares apart the multitude of Bible passages supporting the Trinity both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, and supporting Jesus Christ's deity.  And I am not even done.  I have got many more yet to post.

As for your scholar of the Bible, this Jewish Bible scholar, who was raised in a Orthodox Jewish home, believes in the Trinity:

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum
Upon graduating from high school, Arnold was forced by his father to leave home because of his faith. In 1962, he began undergraduate education at Shelton College in New Jersey. Transferring to Ohio's Cedarville College, he graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Hebrew and Greek in 1966. He then moved to Israel, where he studied archaeology, ancient history, historical geography, and Hebrew at the American Institute of Holy Land Studies and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. During this time, he witnessed the historic Six-Day War in 1967. Later that year, Arnold returned to the U.S. and entered Dallas Theological Seminary for studies in Hebrew and Old Testament. He also began working as a missionary with ABMJ (today, Chosen People Ministries).

http://www.ariel.org/ariel-fruchtenbaum.htm


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 30, 2012, 05:49:50 PM
Yes I have actually but you're being arrogant in acknowledging your failures and your desperation to want to believe something that is untrue.

Some of the verses you quote can't even begin to imagine to forge the trinity in the slightest. What does the destruction of sodom and gomorrah have to do with the trinity? Do you not see that you are SEEING what you WANT to see in EVERYTHING the bible just because you so blindly believe in the trinitarianism.

Just like your opening post in this section about "we", "our" etc.. and ignorantly believing that refers to God being plural lol.. when in fact is is as understood in Hebrew and by orthodox Jews the royal plural.

We need to go back to the basics, you are not willing to acknowledge the HISTORICAL reality that the trinity was NOT thought by Jesus and was not even codified or enforced until hundreds of years later. It is a belief that all historians, christian and otherwise acknowledge as being created way after Jesus. Except the most blind of fundamentalist Christians who also believe the bible is literally the world of God.

This is where the dilemma is, you blindly believe that this 'trinity' is real, ignoring the historical reality and thus... you will try to SEE what you want to see in the bible or elsewhere to justify tens of thousands of pages to yourself that it is true.

Far easier to say God is one as Jesus said so, as Moses said so peace be upon both of them. No arguments, ifs or buts.

It's also rather interesting to see all the hatred of certain islamophobes who are christian to say "we worship a different God, mozzlemz don't worship the God of Abraham"... yet the Jews definetely know and acknowledge that we Muslims worship the God of Abraham, as they do. It is only Christians who have this problem because you have changed the word of God, changed the revelations and changed what Jesus was and thought and instead follow man made laws, man made doctrine and man made beliefs, ultimately leading you to worship of a human being and not God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 31, 2012, 03:45:59 AM
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 31, 2012, 09:46:12 AM
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


 If you want I can get you verses from the Quran that completely destroy the idea of Jesus beingthe son of  God, do you want that? Im sure you dont becuase you say "i believe in the Bibile not the Quran", now flip that arugment backwards, and your posting verses from a book, which has been historically documented to be edited, isnt going to do anything except weaken your aruguement and show your weakness.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 31, 2012, 09:53:06 AM

 If you want I can get you verses from the Quran that completely destroy the idea of Jesus beingthe son of  God, do you want that? Im sure you dont becuase you say "i believe in the Bibile not the Quran", now flip that arugment backwards, and your posting verses from a book, which has been historically documented to be edited, isnt going to do anything except weaken your aruguement and show your weakness.
Well if you believe in your book and he believes in his then really there is absolutely no point to even debating this issue because to be convinced of anything is admit that your book is wrong and no is going to do that.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 31, 2012, 09:54:41 AM
So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah(charity) as long as I remain alive
And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."
That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 31, 2012, 09:55:21 AM
Well if you believe in your book and he believes in his then really there is absolutely no point to even debating this issue because to be convinced of anything is admit that your book is wrong and no is going to do that.

you mean exactly what i said in the other thread  :D?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 31, 2012, 10:07:59 AM
by the way this is why  I didnt post Quran qoutes earlier becuase i KNEW you wouldnt believe what the Quran says, just as I dont believe the modern version of the Bibile that you Believe in.

Hence I decided to go with  unbiased HISTORICAL evidence that Jesus never claimed to be God, nor did the early follows of Jesus worship him and associte him with being Gods son! History is history.

unfortunately Historically speaking there isnt one soild proof supporting your arugments, but theres PLENTLY supporting ours(muslims) arugment.

sorry if I offended you, just as you and MOS were doing your duty as a  christian in the other thread, im doing my duty as a MUSLIM in this one  :D ;) :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 31, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?

TrueBB93,

I will gladly answer your question, after you address this, in your own words.  


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on December 31, 2012, 10:33:47 AM
you mean exactly what i said in the other thread  :D?
Hey, what a miracle we agree on something  :D



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 12:34:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILp4WFQG6M


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on December 31, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on December 31, 2012, 01:39:13 PM

 If you want I can get you verses from the Quran that completely destroy the idea of Jesus beingthe son of  God, do you want that? Im sure you dont becuase you say "i believe in the Bibile not the Quran", now flip that arugment backwards, and your posting verses from a book, which has been historically documented to be edited, isnt going to do anything except weaken your aruguement and show your weakness.

If biblical scripture in anyway related to or supported the theology of Islam I would agree that the Quran would be an effective reference in denying Christ; although, the theology of Islam stands diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ and all tenets of Christianity including concepts of salvation, the resurrection, the divinity of Jesus Christ and the ministry and missionary work of the disciples and apostles. 



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on December 31, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
One of the more common and easily understood ways of explaining this is to use the sun.  It is a heavenly body that we can see.  It produces light.  And it produces heat.
Three distinct traits from one source.

Personally I don't worry about it.   



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:21:20 PM
One of the more common and easily understood ways of explaining this is to use the sun.  It is a heavenly body that we can see.  It produces light.  And it produces heat.
Three distinct traits from one source.

Personally I don't worry about it.   



lol i've heard every innovated explanation of christians referencing to the innovated false belief and doctrine of the trinity?

You heard the gas, liquid and solid one? Egg white and yolk? Family? Father, mother, child? Lmao.

Yet in the first two commandments what does God say through Moses?

Nothing resembles God in the heavens, in the water, in the earth?

Yet here you are foolishly comparing GOD THE ALMIGHTY, our CREATOR, to the creation.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on December 31, 2012, 07:46:09 PM
lol i've heard every innovated explanation of christians referencing to the innovated false belief and doctrine of the trinity?

You heard the gas, liquid and solid one? Egg white and yolk? Family? Father, mother, child? Lmao.

Yet in the first two commandments what does God say through Moses?

Nothing resembles God in the heavens, in the water, in the earth?

Yet here you are foolishly comparing GOD THE ALMIGHTY, our CREATOR, to the creation.

Riiiiiight...


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:49:12 PM
Oh I don't know somewhere in Exodus:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Yet here you are making an idol of a human being.. or simply put, you are comparing all sorts of creation to God the creator.

Water molecules? lol.. the sun? Eggs? Family unit? Eh... I forget the other creative examples.

No matter how many ways you spin this trinity lie that was created hundreds of years after Jesus, it still remains a lie thousands of years later.

Yet what remains is:

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on December 31, 2012, 07:50:02 PM
Oh I don't know somewhere in Exodus:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Yet here you are making an idol of a human being.. or simply put, you are comparing all sorts of creation to God the creator.

Water molecules? lol.. the sun? Eggs? Family unit? Eh... I forget the other creative examples.

English is not your first language, is it? 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:51:14 PM
So now you're a sun worshipper?

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmgY1Hi8q52k1fo6WQaKLwq8NCYXqkqlOG0czteuSzdqp0MHFyhWVRvCiU)

Or are you an egg worshipper?

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-KHlKwek2H4ysCHkko4XHsuy9EnEF5lh9hywlfUj9TEwEj6uESnwt1idm5g)

Or how about an apple?

(http://catholicicing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/how-is-an-apple-like-the-trinity-w.jpg)

Are you an apple worshipper? What if we got more seeds in that apple lol


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:53:38 PM
This one will blow your mind  ;D

(http://thatfaith.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/trinity.png)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:54:17 PM
lmao:

(http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:55:15 PM
Blasphemy at it's finest:

(http://fullhomelydivinity.org/images/retablos/trinity%20otero%20a.jpg)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:56:18 PM
The coolest trinity moment ever:

DODGE THIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFKLxAQBbc


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on December 31, 2012, 07:57:39 PM
So now you're a sun worshipper?

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmgY1Hi8q52k1fo6WQaKLwq8NCYXqkqlOG0czteuSzdqp0MHFyhWVRvCiU)

Or are you an egg worshipper?

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-KHlKwek2H4ysCHkko4XHsuy9EnEF5lh9hywlfUj9TEwEj6uESnwt1idm5g)

Or how about an apple?

(http://catholicicing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/how-is-an-apple-like-the-trinity-w.jpg)

Are you an apple worshipper? What if we got more seeds in that apple lol

Hi stupid.  I am not here to be your friend.  Long have I read your filth and only now have I decided to chastize you for it.  You deserve it.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 07:57:45 PM
I am actually laughing really hard looking at this...

(http://www.harvestwaterlooregion.ca/Content/10327/trinity.png)

Seriously.. with all due respect you have to be demented to believe in this... Which is it?

I like to stick to the historical facts which is... well guess what? The trinity was invented hundreds of years after Jesus. And since it's man made non-sense from a pagan period in roman times, it totally makes sense that it makes no sense.

God does not confuse, stupid men who lie against God do. Satan's goal is to mislead and misguide people away from God's simple truth. This is satan's handy work at it's finest.

God=God=1

End of story.

You guys said the 'councils dont matter' but yes they do matter, because they are the ones that decided what it IS to be a christian WHO Jesus was, who God is, etc... based on their whims.

As a result for CENTURIES non trinitiarians were hunted down and persecuted, considered heretics for not worshipping the trinity and worshipping God alone.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on December 31, 2012, 08:05:14 PM
I am actually laughing really hard looking at this...

(http://www.harvestwaterlooregion.ca/Content/10327/trinity.png)

Seriously.. with all due respect you have to be demented to believe in this... Which is it?

I like to stick to the historical facts which is... well guess what? The trinity was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

You guys said the 'councils dont matter' but yes they do matter, because they are the ones that decided what it IS to be a christian WHO Jesus was, who God is, etc... based on their whims.

Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on December 31, 2012, 08:53:15 PM
Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 


HAHAHA!!! scott is pissed! the truth hurts him like a punch to the nose!



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 10:23:40 PM
Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).

(http://www.yrm.org/441px-Egypte_louvre_066.jpg)

(http://www.yrm.org/460px-Fridolin_Leiber_-_Holy_Trinity2.jpg)

(http://jobryantnz.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/batmantext.jpg)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 10:25:14 PM
(http://www.vaticanassassins.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/All-Seeing-Eye-Church-of-Mission-San-Miguel-Arcangel-San-Miguel-California.jpg)

(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/church-all_seeing_eye2.jpg)

(http://www.markdgljmci.com.jm/i/kinchurch/big/TriEye.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8B46m0Q7bv0/TvZPZKYkWyI/AAAAAAAAAEA/dqgSMWei3Is/s1600/Allsehendes_Auge_am_Tor_des_Aachener_Dom.JPG)


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Kpxya5JyZPo/TEFxsUJLXsI/AAAAAAAADes/_yDAtgvkKM8/s1600/church_eye_w.jpg)

The seed planters of the anti-christ.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on December 31, 2012, 10:32:10 PM
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/pavel-house_of_lies.jpg)

(http://www.whale.to/b/eye_s.36.jpg)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: King Shizzo on January 01, 2013, 09:45:34 AM
Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 
So you belive in Islam right?  I find the story of Muhammad just as laughable.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 01, 2013, 10:33:57 AM

HAHAHA!!! scott is pissed! the truth hurts him like a punch to the nose!



TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 01, 2013, 11:37:09 AM
Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).

This authority is not alone in its insight. Another explains that the whole notion of a Trinity emerged from heated disagreement and dispute: "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Trinity).




How reliable can anything you say be?



The trinity is a false doctrine that was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

Even stories like the prostitute and casting of the sin and man without sin, that was added in around 4th century as well. It's not a true story, Jesus did not say that.

Why? To reinforce this whole non-sense about abandoning God's law, that you can do whatever you want and still be 'saved', etc...


Lastly all the stories in the NT are so non-credible when it comes to consistency. I already posted a video by a Christian scholar addressing these issues. How the stories don't add up, contradict each other, the accounts contradict each other.

Jesus and the other characters are claimed to say one thing or another in one place but contradict themselves in another.

How can one argue on the basis of anything with such inconsistencies, fabrications and manipulations?


What we need to tackle is the root cause of the problem and that is the false invented belief in the trinity which was forged 400 years after Jesus (pbuh). People were killed to enforce this false belief for centuries.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 02, 2013, 10:20:50 AM
Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).

This authority is not alone in its insight. Another explains that the whole notion of a Trinity emerged from heated disagreement and dispute: "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Trinity).




How reliable can anything you say be?



The trinity is a false doctrine that was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

Even stories like the prostitute and casting of the sin and man without sin, that was added in around 4th century as well. It's not a true story, Jesus did not say that.

Why? To reinforce this whole non-sense about abandoning God's law, that you can do whatever you want and still be 'saved', etc...


Lastly all the stories in the NT are so non-credible when it comes to consistency. I already posted a video by a Christian scholar addressing these issues. How the stories don't add up, contradict each other, the accounts contradict each other.

Jesus and the other characters are claimed to say one thing or another in one place but contradict themselves in another.

How can one argue on the basis of anything with such inconsistencies, fabrications and manipulations?


What we need to tackle is the root cause of the problem and that is the false invented belief in the trinity which was forged 400 years after Jesus (pbuh). People were killed to enforce this false belief for centuries.
Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts).  The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit has been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.  The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.  

Again, Islam must deny the trinity, the resurrection of Christ and salvation through Christ or Islam crumbles....it can't stand on it's own!!  If Christianity is not somehow denied and beaten down then Islam is wrong.  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 02, 2013, 10:28:28 AM
Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts).  The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit had been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.  The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.  

Again, Islam must deny the trinity, the resurrection of Christ and salvation through Christ or Islam crumbles....it can't stand on it's own!!  If Christianity is not somehow denied and beaten down Islam is wrong.  


the whole idea and purpose of islam- worship ONE GOD and give God no partners(like a son) or rivals/associates. remember islam dosent deny the teachings of jesus! only the idea he is a "son" and that he died for YOUR sins.

its our duty as muslims to deny not just Trinity but anyone who is a polyhthiest or says God has kids, family ...ect.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
Are you blind in what I copy pasted from the two encyclopedias?

The trinity doctrine in its full form was not even finalized until around 400 years after. The first time it was even debated and finalized was ultimately in the council of nicea and at that time the holy spirit was not a discussion point much it was about who is jesus and who is God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 02, 2013, 12:12:56 PM
the whole idea and purpose of islam- worship ONE GOD and give God no partners(like a son) or rivals/associates. remember islam dosent deny the teachings of jesus! only the idea he is a "son" and that he died for YOUR sins.

its our duty as muslims to deny not just Trinity but anyone who is a polyhthiest or says God has kids, family ...ect.

TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 02, 2013, 01:17:47 PM
TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

sure but before I do I must add somthing important: In the other thread I asked you guys whiter you thought the Bible is "word for word" the word of God, you guys answered No, but inspired by God.

the reason I point this out is very important. I(and all other muslims) believe in ALL the books, hence why the Quran refers to you guys(christians) as "people of the book"(people who have been revealed the truth), except we believe in the original version(which contained 100% truth), not the modern day bible( a blend of truth and falsehoods)

the Bible that people read today seeing as there many many diffrent versions, with certain verses being taken out, and others put in(go to a christian scholar and ask him, if you dont believe me). So the Bible is no longer 100% the word of God it once was. hence a verse will hints at the idea of Jesus(pbuh) dying for you sins or being the son of God is somthing added later.

So the statement I said "the orignal followers of jesus didnt say jesus died for there sins" is somthing which can be proved through history  (how the follows of jesus prayed like jews at syangoues 300 years AFTER jesus left this world and considerd jesuses departure from earth nothing like you guys do in the sense of him being sacrificed). and the opposite(your side of the arugment of him dying for you sins) cannot be proven any other way except using the modern day bible, the same bible why was edited and isnt 100% word of God which even chrisitans admit(hence why they say inspired by God rather then "word for word the word" of God). So  verses which say things like " died for us" is somthing put into the bible many many years later and nothing somthing original.

hope I answered you question Loco, and sorry if I offended you in anyway.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on January 02, 2013, 02:21:24 PM
You say ask scholars if we do not believe you that the Bible has been changed.,

OK now let me explain something to you and remember I have studied history at the university level and everything I say here is 100% right.

Every theologian on the planet presented this argument that you are presenting and everyone believed it including Christians even Pastors and priests. OK then boooooom the dead sea scrolls where discover in 1948 in Qumran a then region of Palestine now known as the west bank.  Most scrolls where written on papyrus, now these scroll contained half of the old Testament and extra Biblical works as well, unfortunately nothing from the new Testament was there but that is because they date back Before Christ.

Now my point is that half the old Testament books that were found where identical with our modern Bible with the exception 2 or 3 books and they are just very ,minor differences but nothing conflicting. Then something else happened, more discoveries were found in the following 8 years and the rest of the old Testament books were also found except the book of Esther. Anyhow these too where identical copies of the KJ version Bible that is circulating today but of course not written in English but Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and even several other languages.

Now take the Minority and the majority text from all manuscript that were used to translate The Bible from Hebrew-Greek to English and the words are identical to those of the dead sea scroll.

So this is what we know for certain is that the Old Testament has not been changed at all in the last 2000 years and scholars have all agreed but people do not know this so they continue to claim falsely that the word in the text have changed through time as you just did but nothing can be further from the truth and university theologians have already accepted this as fact concerning the old Testament.

Now of course since we have not found the new Testament work from that time period we have nothing to compare the writtings in modern day Bibles (New Testament) to anything old so of course it is convenient for someone like you to claim that the words have been changed but in reality since there is no real work to compare it too then it is just speculation on your part in the same manner that it was with theologians prior to the findings of the dead sea scrolls.

But here is what I predict that one day we will find 2nd century manuscripts from the New Testament and the same outcome that took place with dead sea scrolls will take place and this argument you are suggestting will be put to rest once and for all.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 02:32:47 PM
We are talking about the new testament. Christian scholars not Muslim scholars are the ones pointing out how the words of Jesus were manipulated, how stories were added and removed to amplify the trinitarian doctrine, etc... How as the books were written and rewritten the stories were amplified and as can be seen in different accounts of the books representing supposedly same events.

And lastly don't forget how long ago was Moses (pbuh)? Further than any of these written works, but that's another topic of it's own. We are talking about the new testament, Jesus (pbuh) and the manipulations that have occured. Don't forget the Jews were held by Nebuchadnezzar and that they even lost their language, way of life, etc... up to a point amongst other things.

Much of the "jewish magic", kabala etc... it has no orgins in the original revelations and message but things they picked up from the Babylonians for instance. Again another discussion all together but just making a point.

In particular when dealing with the invented trinitarian doctrine, it was formulated ultimately 400 years after Jesus... and first began to take shape from the point of the council of nicea where the 'debate' of who is Jesus and who is God started. Not even a discussion on the holy spirit yet.

The disciples of Jesus didn't accept Paul and differed with him. Everyone differed with Paul. That's why the majority of Paul's books and letters in the new testament (not God's word) are about arguing, boasting, talking about himself, ranting, etc... He was bringing about new ideas that conflicted with the revealed word of God, Jesus' original way and teachings, the disciples' teachings, etc... etc... He was trying really hard to convince everyone that he was not a fraud.

Paul not Jesus was the one that said the atonement of sin is death.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 02:45:51 PM
Another interesting point is that another of the topics of discussions in the council of nicea was whether to worship/celebrate the day of Easter. Which was pagan. It has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh), it has to do with the goddess of fertility Ishtar:
Quote
Another result of the council was an agreement on when to celebrate Easter, the most important feast of the ecclesiastical calendar, decreed in an epistle to the Church of Alexandria in which is simply stated

We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you.[The Seven Ecumenical Councils:114]

So easter, a pagan practice over takes passover. That's what 'pasch' referers to and when they say 'jewish practice'.

Easter eggs, bunnies, have nothing to do with jesus (pbuh). They just happened to almost always coincide.

Quote
The word Easter appears once in the King James version of the Bible.Herod has put Peter in prison, "intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:4). Yet in the original Greek text the word is not Easter, but Pesach, that is Passover. So why was the name changed? Please read on, and remember Exodus 34:14; For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d.

"Asherah" the Greek form of this word from the Septuagint is "Astarte", who is the Babylonian goddess of the sea, sea being symbolic of people, and consort of the god El. She was the mother of several gods, including Ba'al, the Babylonian god of the sun. These deities were soon adopted by the Canaanites when they named these female deities the Asherah or Asherim. These deities were made of wood carved from a type of evergreen tree, or often they were set up in Canaanite homes as full trees cut down from a forest. The Asherim normally were highly acknowledged during two specific occasions. First and foremost, they were the fertility gods of the spring equinox, when the days and nights were approximately the same in length, signifying the beginning of living things growing for the summer season. A very common practice in the Canaanite religion was performed on the first Sunday of the equinox. The families would face east to await the rising of the sun, which was the chief symbol of the sun god, Ba'al. Later on during the day, the children of the Canaanite parents would often go and hunt for eggs, which were symbolic of sex, fertility and new life. It was believed that these eggs came from rabbits, which in the pagan world were symbolic of lust, sexual prowess and reproduction. The Canaanites, however, were not the only ones who worshiped rabbits as deities. The Egyptians and the Persians (Babylon) also held rabbits in high esteem because they believed that rabbits first came from the divine Phoenix birds, who once ruled the ancient skies until they were attacked by other gods in a power struggle. When they were struck down, they reincarnated into rabbits, but kept the ability to produce eggs like the ancient birds to show their origins.

Other stories concerning the egg rose later in the Middle Ages by the Anglo-Saxons, where they believed the origin of the Universe had the earth being hatched out of an enormous egg. Decorating eggs came about to honor their pagan gods and were often presented as gifts to other families to bring them fertility and sexual success during the coming year. And secondly, they were highly worshiped and celebrated during the winter solstice. As according to Jer. 10:1-5; Is. 40:19-20; 41:7 and 44:9-20, the pagans would go out into the forest and do one of two things. Either they chopped down a tree and carved a female deity out of it, or they would simply bring the tree into the house and decorate it with gold and silver ornaments symbolizing the sun and the moon while nailing a stand on the bottom so it would not totter or tip over.

Out of this practice came many other variations of these pagan festivals until the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Asherah worship and named it EASTER around 155 A.D. According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, Easter was named after a pagan goddess of the Anglo-Saxons named Eostre, the goddess of the dawn. A great controversy arose between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church in 325 A.D. on whether to celebrate Easter on Sundays or on whatever day the Jewish Passover fell upon. Unfortunately, the Greeks lost a lot of followers and the Catholics contended that keeping Easter on Sundays would stimulate the practices of both the Christian world and the pagan worshipers. Note that the word CATHOLIC means "universal" or "one world" in thought, concept and practice. Hence, since the original practice of Asherah worship we now have in our time the celebration of Easter, a counterfeit holiday to the true Christian festival of the Passover which was instituted in the Bible and completed in the New Testament when Christ died on the cross as our Passover Lamb.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on January 02, 2013, 03:04:05 PM
Yes but my point is that there are no manuscripts available from the second century to compare todays work too, there simply is not, such manuscript would fetch 20 billion dollars or even mor, people have been looking but have not found any original text from the New T, so saying so is speculation at most. I mean I can speculate that the Koran has been changed as well since the work written in the 7th century does not exist today and as truebb said that it might have said this, well I can say the same about the Koran but saying and proving are two different things and it can not be proven that these words have been changed unless you have the original work to compare it to.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on January 02, 2013, 03:25:12 PM
Gerd R Puin and many other theologians and universities scholars all think that the manuscripts from the Koran are complete contradictions of the original and has been changed and altrered through transaltion and I can also find you lots of Muslims who agree that it has been changed.

See, no different then what you guys are claiming about Christianity is also applicable to you as well at the university scholarly level.

here is just one quote.


My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.[1]
The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,' but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on






Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on January 02, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdvsLh128Q


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 03:36:13 PM
That's in their ignorance of the qur'an ironically. As it was revealed in a living language and a language that is still spoken today by billions. It's also amusing to compare the bible and qur'an as they are nothing alike. Nothing. The qur'an merely re-affirms what was, does not 'copy'. As again, the style of the bible's many books and the qur'an are NOTHING alike. The eloquence and simplicity of the qur'an is incomparable to the bible. Especially if we look at something like paul's writings which are literally his rants.

The qur'an also speaks very little about Muhammad (pbuh), unlike Paul's writings which speak all about him him him.

There is no confusion or contradiction in it's writing as it is consistent.

What I was referring to with the NT is that what we have of the oldest manuscripts and parchments illustrates that later and deliberate manipulations were created. We can see and KNOW when even these manipulations were made and often times very much so why.

One rather significant fraud is the story of the prostitute and stoning her. This was not in the oldest manuscripts. The church tried to say that some 'unholy people', "erased" the story from the earlier manuscripts. This makes no sense at all. It is a clear coy story to denounce the law and enforce trinitarian doctrine. As is attested to, NOT a story of Jesus, NOT what Jesus spoke, yet it is included. As such revised bibles indicate this is not found in the original manuscripts but it is kept for "tradition's" sake.

Likewise with translations, there were deliberate mistranslations of words.

As far as the qur'an is concerned, it was revealed in the qureishi dialect and it was recorded as such. The difference of the other dialects occured when people from other regions speaking arabic diferently started pronouncing words differently. As such Uthman (ra) the caliphate made it his mandate to officiate and compile the qur'an in the original standard as instructed by Muhammad (pbuh) and it is what we have up to this day.

The only addition was the accents for non-arab speakers.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: OTHstrong on January 02, 2013, 03:42:30 PM
That's in their ignorance of the qur'an ironically. As it was revealed in a living language and a language that is still spoken today by billions. It's also amusing to compare the bible and qur'an as they are nothing alike. Nothing. The qur'an merely re-affirms what was, does not 'copy'. As again, the style of the bible's many books and the qur'an are NOTHING alike. The eloquence and simplicity of the qur'an is incomparable to the bible. Especially if we look at something like paul's writings which are literally his rants.

The qur'an also speaks very little about Muhammad (pbuh), unlike Paul's writings which speak all about him him him.

There is no confusion or contradiction in it's writing as it is consistent.

What I was referring to with the NT is that what we have of the oldest manuscripts and parchments illustrates that later and deliberate manipulations were created. We can see and KNOW when even these manipulations were made and often times very much so why.

One rather significant fraud is the story of the prostitute and stoning her. This was not in the oldest manuscripts. The church tried to say that some 'unholy people', "erased" the story from the earlier manuscripts. This makes no sense at all. It is a clear coy story to denounce the law and enforce trinitarian doctrine. As is attested to, NOT a story of Jesus, NOT what Jesus spoke, yet it is included. As such revised bibles indicate this is not found in the original manuscripts but it is kept for "tradition's" sake.

Likewise with translations, there were deliberate mistranslations of words.

As far as the qur'an is concerned, it was revealed in the qureishi dialect and it was recorded as such. The difference of the other dialects occured when people from other regions speaking arabic diferently started pronouncing words differently. As such Uthman (ra) the caliphate made it his mandate to officiate and compile the qur'an in the original standard as instructed by Muhammad (pbuh) and it is what we have up to this day.

The only addition was the accents for non-arab speakers.
Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 03:43:22 PM
Well show me an example.

While I can show you in the bible contradictions left and right, story based, account based and even numerical based contradictions. In the very same books, paragraphs even one after the other. That's how riddled it is with errors.

Shortly after embracing Islam I took it upon myself to go through certain books in the bible to look for numerical errors and miscalculations. It blew my mind as God would not make simple arithmetic errors. Just one case. Then of course the story and accounts especially in the new testament. Especially when it comes to Jesus what he said, did, and his followers. The narrations are not consistent in their message across the books.

Every single one of the qur'ans in existence are exactly the same in the original Arabic. Hundreds of millions of people literally have memorized the qur'an word for word. There are even 4 year old children that have memorized the qur'an word for word.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 03:59:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLYSVFt2MY


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 02, 2013, 04:03:28 PM
This was a very sad story.... I heard this, this year actually:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHDE8V--KOo
Quote
Published on 14 Apr 2012
*** Update: Young Bara'ah has passed away. May Allah SWTA join her with her mother and father in the highest levels of Jannah. Ameen.

This is the recitation of Bara'ah, a 10 year old girl diagnosed with Cancer. She is reciting from Surah Saffaat, Ayahs 83-102.

Here is her story:

Bara'ah is a 10 year old who finished memorizing the whole Qur'an with Tajweed. Her parents were doctors who moved to Saudi Arabia in search of better life. Bara'ah was very intelligent. Her teacher used to tell her that she should be in middle school not primary school.

Her family was small and committed to Islam and its teachings. One day, her mother began experiencing severe abdominal pain. After going to the hospital and diagnostics tests and imaging performed, it was discovered that she had cancer, but in its late stages.

The mother thought she should tell her daughter, especially if she wakes up one day and didn't find her mother beside her. Being at the young tender age of 10, her mother told her: "Bara`ah, I will go to paradise ahead of you, but I want you to read the Quran you memorized every day since it will protect you in this life."

The little girl didn't really understand what her mother was trying to tell her, but she began feeling the change in her mother's status. Soon, her mother was was transferred to stay in the hospital on a permanent basis. Bara'ah used to come to the hospital after school and recite the Quran for her mother until the evening when her father would take her home.

One day the hospital called the husband and informed him that the his wife's condition had deteriorated and that it would be advisable to come to the hospital immediately. The father picked up Bara`ah from school and headed to the hospital. When they arrived, he asked her to stay in the car so he could first see what the condition of his wife was.

The father got out of the car with tears filled in his eyes. While crossing the road to enter the hospital, he was hit by a speeding car and died in front of his daughter who came crying to her father.

The tragedy of Bar`ah is not over yet. The news of her father's death was hidden from the mother. Her condition steadily worsened, and 5 days later, she passed away leaving Bar`ah alone without her parents. Her parents' friends decided to find her relatives in Egypt so that they could take care of her.

Soon thereafter, Bara`ah began having severe pain, similar to what her mother experienced. At the hospital, she too was diagnosed with cancer. At the surprise of everyone she said, "Alhamdulillah, now I will meet my parents."

All of the family friends were shocked at her response. This little girl, being faced with calamity after calamity, yet she remained patient and satisfied with what Allah ordained for her!

The news of Bara'ah and her story spread. One Saudi heard of her story and decided to take care of her. He sent her to the UK to receive the appropriate treatment for her condition.

In the UK, her condition worsened and the cancer spread throughout her body with metastasis in multiple organs. The doctors had to amputate her legs, yet she still remained patient. Soon, the cancer spread to her brain the doctors had to do brain surgery. Bara'ah went into a full coma.

Before she went into coma, one of the Islamic channels (Al Hafiz - The protector) got in contact with this little girl and asked her to recite the Qur'an. This video is of her beautiful recitation of Surah Saffaat.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 02, 2013, 04:50:22 PM
Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.

you in your heart know there isnt. if you really do go find one! dont just say "lots of people believe there is".

Step 1. Find contradiction
Step 2. give us the verse before and after it.
Step 3. give us the chapter name which you found this contradiction

http://quran.com

^^^^ if you find a verse check this website to make sure it really is in the Quran and not somthing a non-muslim has added to forward their arugement(yes there have been people stupid enough and shameless enough to make things up!)




Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 02, 2013, 06:48:09 PM
Are you blind in what I copy pasted from the two encyclopedias?

The trinity doctrine in its full form was not even finalized until around 400 years after. The first time it was even debated and finalized was ultimately in the council of nicea and at that time the holy spirit was not a discussion point much it was about who is jesus and who is God.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to note that the encyclopedia reference is just flat out wrong about the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit not being preached...it's all their in scripture and completely affirmed by God, the disciples, the apostles and millions of believers worldwide.  So, it's all good.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 02, 2013, 09:29:17 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to note that the encyclopedia reference is just flat out wrong about the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit not being preached...it's all their in scripture and completely affirmed by God, the disciples, the apostles and millions of believers worldwide.  So, it's all good.

give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: The Scott on January 02, 2013, 09:57:39 PM
give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins

*SNICKER*

That book, the New Testament, the one  you so despise and ignore is all that those who follow the Christ need.  It is the source of their spiritual nourishment, if you will. You already know this and yet in your pathetic attempts to belittle their faith you make idiotic statements such as the one quoted above. 

You really are stupid.  How goes that myth about your foundling father, Mohammed and  his flying horse?  I think it should be called something other than

"My little pony".  How about, ""My little phony"?  Yes, that would aptly describe your pathetic leader and his wife beating followers.

Gutless pedophiles, the lot of you.  Mistreaters of women and sodomizers of boys, this is the heritage of Islam.  That and murder.    No better than the Popes of Catholicism.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 05:14:59 AM
sure but before I do I must add somthing important: In the other thread I asked you guys whiter you thought the Bible is "word for word" the word of God, you guys answered No, but inspired by God.

the reason I point this out is very important. I(and all other muslims) believe in ALL the books, hence why the Quran refers to you guys(christians) as "people of the book"(people who have been revealed the truth), except we believe in the original version(which contained 100% truth), not the modern day bible( a blend of truth and falsehoods)

the Bible that people read today seeing as there many many diffrent versions, with certain verses being taken out, and others put in(go to a christian scholar and ask him, if you dont believe me). So the Bible is no longer 100% the word of God it once was. hence a verse will hints at the idea of Jesus(pbuh) dying for you sins or being the son of God is somthing added later.

So the statement I said "the orignal followers of jesus didnt say jesus died for there sins" is somthing which can be proved through history  (how the follows of jesus prayed like jews at syangoues 300 years AFTER jesus left this world and considerd jesuses departure from earth nothing like you guys do in the sense of him being sacrificed). and the opposite(your side of the arugment of him dying for you sins) cannot be proven any other way except using the modern day bible, the same bible why was edited and isnt 100% word of God which even chrisitans admit(hence why they say inspired by God rather then "word for word the word" of God). So  verses which say things like " died for us" is somthing put into the bible many many years later and nothing somthing original.

hope I answered you question Loco, and sorry if I offended you in anyway.

Thank you for addressing this, finally.  Nice conspiracy theory you got going there.  So some guy said this on a YouTube video and you believe it?

There are an abundance of Bible scholars, past and present, who will disagree with you.  I have studied the Bible, Bible History, and Archeology myself.  My father was a Bible scholar.  I have known Bible scholars.  And we all know what you say is not true and you have not an ounce of evidence to back it up.

With your conspiracy theory, you can conveniently add to or remove from the Bible anything that you want to fit your beliefs.  You could say that the original Bible never mentioned Jesus, that Jesus was added later.  You could even say that the original Bible never mentioned God, that God was added later.

New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing.  Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.

There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.  If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

Just one example:

Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years.  We have only 49 copies.

Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years.  We have only 10 copies.

The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.).  The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.).  The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years.  We have 5,686 copies.


I'll tell you what, prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 09:48:01 AM
Thank you for addressing this, finally.  Nice conspiracy theory you got going there.  So some guy said this on a YouTube video and you believe it?
There are an abundance of Bible scholars, past and present, who will disagree with you.  I have studied the Bible, Bible History, and Archeology myself.  My father was a Bible scholar.  I have known Bible scholars.  And we all know what you say is not true and you have not an ounce of evidence to back it up.

With your conspiracy theory, you can conveniently add to or remove from the Bible anything that you want to fit your beliefs.  You could say that the original Bible never mentioned Jesus, that Jesus was added later.  You could even say that the original Bible never mentioned God, that God was added later.
New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing.  Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.

There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.  If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

Just one example:

Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years.  We have only 49 copies.

Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years.  We have only 10 copies.

The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.).  The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.).  The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years.  We have 5,686 copies.


I'll tell you what, prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  

alright  ::) you want to open this can of worms huh?

so since you claim to have studied the Bibile, you father has too and you claim to know Bibile Scholars, then I am assuming you know who Bart D. Ehrman is? he is a New testament scholar. lets take a look at a few of the things he said in his books shall we?

"In his book Forged which was released in 2011, he asserts that 11 or more books of the Christian New Testament were essentially politically expeditious forgeries, intended to advance various theological positions and were in fact not written by the authors traditionally ascribed to them"

He also said  in misqouting jesus we dont even have a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY or anything original from the bible!!!!!!!!! thats 5!!!!!

AND THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS!!!!  ALMOST ALL OF MY INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLES FAULTS HAVE BEEN FROM CHRISITANS!! PEOPLE WHO ARE SCHOLARS! THIS ISNT A YOUTUBE-ILLUMANTI TYPE GIMMICK VIDEO! THESE ARE EDUCATED BIBLE SCHOLARS COMMING OUT AND SAYING SOMTHING THINGS ABOUT THEIR OWN FAITH IS JUST PLAIN WORNG!

If you consider youself to have strong faith then watch this(if you dont, it means you belief is weak, since you rather not hear the truth and stay in your own bubble)

here is ANOTHER bible scholar Yusuf estes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kX72KvnMmI


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
alright  ::) you want to open this can of worms huh?

so since you claim to have studied the Bibile, you father has too and you claim to know Bibile Scholars, then I am assuming you know who Bart D. Ehrman is? he is a New testament scholar. lets take a look at a few of the things he said in his books shall we?

"In his book Forged which was released in 2011, he asserts that 11 or more books of the Christian New Testament were essentially politically expeditious forgeries, intended to advance various theological positions and were in fact not written by the authors traditionally ascribed to them"

He also said  in misqouting jesus we dont even have a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY or anything original from the bible!!!!!!!!! thats 5!!!!!

AND THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS!!!!  ALMOST ALL OF MY INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLES FAULTS HAVE BEEN FROM CHRISITANS!! PEOPLE WHO ARE SCHOLARS! THIS ISNT A YOUTUBE-ILLUMANTI TYPE GIMMICK VIDEO! THESE ARE EDUCATED BIBLE SCHOLARS COMMING OUT AND SAYING SOMTHING THINGS ABOUT THEIR OWN FAITH IS JUST PLAIN WORNG!

If you consider youself to have strong faith then watch this(if you dont, it means you belief is weak, since you rather not hear the truth and stay in your own bubble)

here is ANOTHER bible scholar Yusuf estes!


TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 09:58:39 AM
TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  

let me guess you didnt watch the vid i posted becuase of your weak faith you were afriad rigth?  :-* how do you sleep at night know the truth is there but you skip over it?

I asked you FIRST to prove jesus died for your sins without using the bible, you werent man enough to do that, now you come and ask me the same question? You first buddy, then I will go  :-* :-* :-*


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 10:14:43 AM
let me guess you didnt watch the vid i posted becuase of your weak faith you were afriad rigth?  :-* how do you sleep at night know the truth is there but you skip over it?

I asked you FIRST to prove jesus died for your sins without using the bible, you werent man enough to do that, now you come and ask me the same question? You first buddy, then I will go  :-* :-* :-*

Why are you trying to change the subject now?  Now you want me to prove what?  I cannot, and no one can, prove that Jesus died for our sins.  All I did was show you, using the Bible, that you are mistaken when you said that

the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

To which you replied that Jesus dying for our sins was not in the original Bible, but that it was added later.

TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.

You won't because you can't.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 10:39:13 AM
give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins

I need a source other than God?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 10:47:39 AM
Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  :-*

"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  ;)

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery :-*) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)

Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 10:49:20 AM
I need a source other than God?

In the Quran God says who ever gives him partners and is a poltheist will burn in Hell forever. He also says jesus was a prophet and NOT a son.

Do I need a source other then God?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 10:58:05 AM
Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  :-*

"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  ;)

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery :-*) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)

Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.

So what?  I could cut and paste quotes from thousands of Bible scholars who do believe the entire Bible supports the Trinity.  And I have already posted an abundance of Bible passages showing why we believe this.

TrueBB93,

Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 11:12:22 AM
So what?  I could cut and paste quotes from thousands of Bible scholars who do believe the entire Bible supports the Trinity.  And I have already posted an abundance of Bible passages showing why we believe this.

TrueBB93,

Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.

you really are loco arent you? can your read english? THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF ANYTHING LEFT! its ALL alterd.

I just proved to you the idea of the trinity is nothing but nonsense! the only verse which even comes close was a FORGERY!!! just like many other things in chrisitany that innocent and good people fall pray into.
 

lets do this:

I will keep giving charity, fasting and praying 5 times a day the same way Jesus did. I will continue to Pray to GOD alone and ask GOD for forgivness and ask GOD for help. and continue to priase God the almighty, not his creation.

you can continue with your beleifs and tell people 3=1 and 1=3? sound good? tell people jesus loves you, yet you dont pray like Jeusus did. jesus when to synagouges to worship God, you go to chruch to worship jesus.

 the only reason you christian is becuase you were brought up that way, you never gave religion of life in genral a second thought. Open you eye buddy, open you eyes. theres a reason why people who are searching for religion alwas come to islam, no ones holdin a sword to their neck.

Im done with this debate


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 11:35:36 AM
TrueBB93,

All I did was show you, using the Bible, that you are mistaken when you said that

the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

To which you replied that Jesus dying for our sins was not in the original Bible, but that it was added later.

So I asked you to prove your conspiracy theory by producing, NOT an ORIGINAL, but an EARLIER copy that doesn't mention Jesus dying for our sins.

To which your reply

THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF ANYTHING LEFT! its ALL alterd.

Nice conspiracy theory you got there.

TrueBB93,

I respect your faith and I am not here to try to convert you, though I do wish you'd see the light and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior because I believe that is the truth.

I am here to set the record straight about what the Bible says.

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 12:12:25 PM
Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  :-*

"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  ;)

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery :-*) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)

Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.

Yes, I am very familiar with Dr. Craig, Dr. White and Dr. Ehrman.  Again, the term trinity was later coined by the church (ahmed has confirmed this), but scripture already contained the unnamed concept.  God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are fully represented in biblical scripture.  Dr. Craig also has fully validated that over 99% of the NT is completely accurate and intact from the earliest, most reliable forms....for what it's worth.  Although, your posting doesn't express it, Craig and White also fully support, preach, lecture and debate (in defense of) the trinity.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 03, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
99% accurate? No he hasn't lol, he has in fact proven what we've been repeating over and over again. Not our words, but words of Christians who know the scriptures and not just fundamentalist evangelists who are all blinded by blind faith... and who even go as far as saying the bible is the word of God.

He was in fact a fundamentalist evangelist and studied under them as well but the more knowledge he received, the more he studied, the more he realized that these are lies he's been fed.

He has had a chance to look at the actual parchments and can attest that there are millions of errors, manipulations, forgeries, etc...


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 12:45:37 PM
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 12:54:43 PM
99% accurate? No he hasn't lol, he has in fact proven what we've been repeating over and over again. Not our words, but words of Christians who know the scriptures and not just fundamentalist evangelists who are all blinded by blind faith... and who even go as far as saying the bible is the word of God.

He was in fact a fundamentalist evangelist and studied under them as well but the more knowledge he received, the more he studied, the more he realized that these are lies he's been fed.

He has had a chance to look at the actual parchments and can attest that there are millions of errors, manipulations, forgeries, etc...

No, millions is a word used by anti-Christian extremists for the sake of impact, but minor variations in the minutia of scripture have been estimated at say 300,000 to 400,000.  You do realize how these amounts are calculated?  Let's say there are 5000 manuscripts that are identical and each contains 20 words and 25 letters that vary from an earlier document they were sourced from - keeping in mind that the message and content are completely intact and accurate despite the variation in minutia.  Those 20 word variations and 25 letter differences are then multiplied by the 5000 total, identical manuscripts.  Presto, there are at least 225,000 errors in the bible!!  When in actually there were about 50 minute variances.  Then factor in that scribes misspelled something, omitted a word accidentally, accidentally deleted a line, repeated "thee" or "thou" twice.   Take those 5000 manuscripts and factor in 20 of those types of errors for all 5000 and you have another 100,000 errors.  Now we have a total of 325,000 errors in the bible!!  


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 12:57:47 PM
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.

You know what, you are absolutely correct.  I was thinking of Dr. Paul Copan.  That was my mistake.  Dr. Ehrman has debated Dr. Craig in the past.  I've modified my post above because of my mistake.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 03, 2013, 01:16:05 PM
You know what, you are absolutely correct.  I was thinking of Dr. Paul Copan.  That was my mistake.  Dr. Ehrman has debated Dr. Craig in the past.  I've modified my post above because of my mistake.

And you sir are correct in that William Lane Craig fully supports the Trinity and fervently debates in favor of the Trinity. 

An interesting fact too is that William Lane Craig graduated from and later taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.   ;D


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 01:26:24 PM
And you sir are correct in that William Lane Craig fully supports the Trinity and fervently debates in favor of the Trinity. 

An interesting fact too is that William Lane Craig graduated from and later taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.   ;D

I've been watching his debates for a couple of years now and I'm the middle of his book "Reasonable Faith".  It's a bit heady, but still interesting.  He has to be the foremost expert on the Kalam Cosmological Argument that I know of.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 03, 2013, 02:05:35 PM
You haven't obviously watched any of his lectures or read any of his books. That's just silly.

He outlines some pretty radical manipulations and forgeries it's not 'minute changes'. He points to those being tens upon tens of thousands indeed. He also talks about the manipulations and foregeries.

Some of those 'minute changes' as you like to call them are significant enough as well as changing a word can change the whole meaning of something dramatically. For example to allure to the trinity or to have absolutely nothing to do with the trinity.

He points to fabricated stories, where lines were added, moved or removed throughout parchments in the books how stories moved around and where placed in different locations to add flavour or distinct manipulated meaning. Intended meaning vs actual meaning. etc...

One big forgery is the story of the prostitute. Why? Because it allures to doctrine. Disobeying the law (which Jesus would have not done) and coming up with a clever line to showcase 'mercy' of sorts. He talks about this deliberate development and forgery as one such example to reinforce the church doctrine that was developing.

As we all know 300-400 years after in particular.

These 'minute' changes as you call them are big changes in the long run as we can see today.

That's why in islam we say:

The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).

And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).


Point a flash light at a wall straight, it will be a straight line. Make a 1* change at the starting point of the flash light and that change at the wall will be far more than just 1*. It will be way off course.

That's why God sent prophets and messengers repeatedly to bring people back to the truth once they've swerved off the true and straight path.

The Prophet   said, "Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."Hadith - Bukhari 9:391, Narrated Abu Huraira 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 02:17:46 PM
You haven't obviously watched any of his lectures or read any of his books. That's just silly.

He outlines some pretty radical manipulations and forgeries it's not 'minute changes'. He points to those being tens upon tens of thousands indeed. He also talks about the manipulations and foregeries.

Some of those 'minute changes' as you like to call them are significant enough as well as changing a word can change the whole meaning of something dramatically. For example to allure to the trinity or to have absolutely nothing to do with the trinity.

He points to fabricated stories, where lines were added, moved or removed throughout parchments in the books how stories moved around and where placed in different locations to add flavour or distinct manipulated meaning. Intended meaning vs actual meaning. etc...

One big forgery is the story of the prostitute. Why? Because it allures to doctrine. Disobeying the law (which Jesus would have not done) and coming up with a clever line to showcase 'mercy' of sorts. He talks about this deliberate development and forgery as one such example to reinforce the church doctrine that was developing.

As we all know 300-400 years after in particular.

These 'minute' changes as you call them are big changes in the long run as we can see today.

That's why in islam we say:

The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).

And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).


Point a flash light at a wall straight, it will be a straight line. Make a 1* change at the starting point of the flash light and that change at the wall will be far more than just 1*. It will be way off course.

That's why God sent prophets and messengers repeatedly to bring people back to the truth once they've swerved off the true and straight path.

The Prophet   said, "Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."Hadith - Bukhari 9:391, Narrated Abu Huraira 


No I don't own a copy of "Jesus Misquoted" and have not read it. 

I have watched him debate and wasn't particularly impressed or disappointed....was more left with a feeling of "meh".


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 02:20:42 PM
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.

he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 03, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
And he was hanging around fundamentalist evangelists. The hardcore ones. Studying with them and seeing outright lies being passed off as ok. I posted a video where he specifically talks about this history of his and dealing with them and studying with them. He was outraged to find out in their seminaries outright manipulations being passed as A-OKAY just because.

Kind of just like that other guy I posted in the people who have become Muslim thread who studied the original scriptures and in his words as he said saw how they were literally manipulated, when they were manipulated and for what reason they were even manipulated.

Fascinating indeed.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 03, 2013, 02:32:00 PM
This guy to went to seminaries, studied the NT parchments in their original form, etc... etc... and comes to the exact same conclusions because he wanted to be closer to God, yet the more he learned about the lies of the church the further he fell away from it... yet he still had strong conviction and faith in God, believed in Jesus, etc... but no longer the trinity or all the other lies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_m9mXm6sw8

It's in many parts, but worth watching. Basically the only reason he even learned about Islam is that him and his wife had a hobby of studying arab horses and as such travelled to arab countries and had some arab friends. Funny how many ways God has to guide someone through life.

Kind of how living amongst arabs as a christian also left me a lasting impression even though at the time my family and I thought little of it and ironically we became Muslim in the west after trying to be better christians.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 02:38:55 PM
^^^^^ prime example! i've seen this vid before.

MOS and Loco take a look. Dont ignore the vids. If you really think your faith is strong then take a look


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 03, 2013, 02:39:30 PM
No I don't own a copy of "Jesus Misquoted" and have not read it.  

I have watched him debate and wasn't particularly impressed or disappointed....was more left with a feeling of "meh".

So you feel 'meh' when a whole story is just put in what you claim is God's inspired word. A story that misrepresents Jesus as its a lie and not what Jesus said/did/etc...

I would feel an outright outrage and that's exactly what I felt as a Christian trying to be a better Christian and learning about the many lies of the chuch and christianity. It did not weaken my faith, it strengthened it, but it kept me looking for God's truth which ultimately I found in islam.

It's the same with the trinity. I kept reading the bible, I kept reading the history and I did not accept the 'blind faith' that my priests/teachers/etc... encouraged. "Have faith", "it's a mystery". Wait no... I have faith.... but I also have a brain.. and its not a 'mystery' when its a fabrication, a concotion, a lie, a forgery that can be traced historically and not out of the mouth of Jesus (pbuh) but out of the mouth of so called convert pagan romans, the church, and others in their ranks.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 03, 2013, 02:50:27 PM
^^^^^ prime example! i've seen this vid before.

MOS and Loco take a look. Dont ignore the vids. If you really think your faith is strong then take a look

I've also seen this video before, but I'm listening to it again now while I type this.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 03, 2013, 03:18:26 PM
I've also seen this video before, but I'm listening to it again now while I type this.

In that case, Thanks for taking the time to watch.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 04, 2013, 06:49:03 AM
he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?

TrueBB93,

I thought you were done with this debate and decided to continue to be Muslim and let Christians be Christians.  

Anyway, it is highly doubtful that Bart Ehrman became an agnostic just because of his study of the Bible, no matter what he or what you might say.  There are many other reasons why a person might become agnostic or atheist.  

By your logic, most if not all Jewish and Christian Bible scholars would have become agnostic by now.  And I know of many Muslims, agnostics and atheists who became Christians by studying the Bible.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 04, 2013, 07:30:57 AM
he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?

Did a bit of reading last night after we disussed Bart Ehrman and his book "Misquoting Jesus" that references all of the primary "errors" in the bible.  That lead me to pull a book of my shelf entitled "The Case for the Real Jesus" in which Daniel Wallace (considered to be the only other textual critic matching Bart Ehrman's credentials) who wrote "Reinventing Jesus" (a refutation of Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus").  Currently Ehrman and Wallace are the fields top textual critics and experts in NT manuscripts.  Ehrman was a Christian that became an agnostic because of his study, but Wallace is a Christian who's similar study increased his faith.  Within the interview in "The Case for the Real Jesus" Wallace indicates that Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" was actually dedicated to his mentor Bruce Metzger (arguably this centuries greatest textual critic....who passed several years ago).   This then reminded me of Bruce Metzger's interview from years earlier in "The Case for Christ" (that I also pulled off my shelf and reread).   Like Wallace's interview, Metzger concludes with an indication that his faith has only been strengthened by his research in textual variances and manuscript comparisons.  Wallace indicated that although Ehrman brings to light a number of biblical issues (that were old news in the field, but foreign to common readers) that none of them sacrifce one bit of the Christian theology whatsover (as I stated yesterday).  Ironically enough, Metzger's interview from years earlier indicates exactly the same thing.  After re-reading all the interviews I ordered Wallace's book and will be reading that in the coming weeks.  I hope to follow it up with Ehrman's book shortly thereafter.

That said, among textual critics, Ehrman's position does not represent the majority in the field as indicated by Wallace and Ehrman's mentor Metzger.  



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 29, 2013, 09:19:17 AM


Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.

Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.


Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord.  Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God.  The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)

See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ."  This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.


"LORD" in Genesis 18 and 19 refers to God:

Genesis 18:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.

Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 29, 2013, 10:06:56 AM
Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord.  Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God.  The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)

See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ."  This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.



"LORD" in Genesis 18 and 19 refers to God:

Genesis 18:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.

Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

lol, there is nothing at all "clear" about a "God person and a second God person."  This is something which only makes sense to you because you want to believe it.  It is also both non-scriptural and unreasonable.  

And typing "Adonai" instead of "Lord" does not at all affect my earlier argument that Peter is called Lord, therefore Lord does not mean God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 29, 2013, 10:37:40 AM
lol, there is nothing at all "clear" about a "God person and a second God person."  This is something which only makes sense to you because you want to believe it.  It is also both non-scriptural and unreasonable.  

And typing "Adonai" instead of "Lord" does not at all affect my earlier argument that Peter is called Lord, therefore Lord does not mean God.

Sarah also referred to her husband Abraham as lord....a common practice among the Jews.  Within three verses we see Abraham referred to as lord of his wife and Abraham referring to the Lord God.

Genesis 18
King James Version (KJV)

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.


15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.



Here Abraham referred to the Lord his God:

Genesis 24:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again.

7 The Lord God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.


Just homonyms...two words spelled the same, but meaning something different.    


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 29, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
lol, there is nothing at all "clear" about a "God person and a second God person."  This is something which only makes sense to you because you want to believe it.  It is also both non-scriptural and unreasonable.  

And typing "Adonai" instead of "Lord" does not at all affect my earlier argument that Peter is called Lord, therefore Lord does not mean God.

I did not just type "Adonai" instead of "LORD."  That's how the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) translated it from Hebrew.  Look it up if you don't believe me.  When God's Hebrew names "YHWH" or "Adonai" are used in the Old Testament, English translations usually use "LORD" instead.  These English translations explain this in their introduction.  I have known this since I was a child.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 29, 2013, 12:57:07 PM
I did not just type "Adonai" instead of "LORD."  That's how the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) translated it from Hebrew.  Look it up if you don't believe me.  When God's Hebrew names "YHWH" or "Adonai" are used in the Old Testament, English translations usually use "LORD" instead.  These English translations explain this in their introduction.  I have known this since I was a child.

I didn't doubt that Adonai is the Hebrew word that is translated as Lord, so there isn't anything to "look up" lol.  My whole point, which I think you've forgotten, is that Jesus being called "Lord" does not serve as evidence that he is in fact God.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 29, 2013, 12:58:02 PM
Sarah also referred to her husband Abraham as lord....a common practice among the Jews.  Within three verses we see Abraham referred to as lord of his wife and Abraham referring to the Lord God.


Thank you.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 29, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
I didn't doubt that Adonai is the Hebrew word that is translated as Lord, so there isn't anything to "look up" lol.  My whole point, which I think you've forgotten, is that Jesus being called "Lord" does not serve as evidence that he is in fact God.

Well, I think we've clearly established that there isn't a verse of scripture you or ahmed or true would accept that validates that Jesus Christ is God.  

When Thomas sees the resurrected Christ and exclaims, "My Lord and my God!"
When Christ said to Phillip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
When Christ said, "I and the Father are one."
When Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Or John's opening discourse in his gospel about the Word becoming flesh in Jesus Christ....Chapter 1 verses 1-18 is an absolute revelation.
Or the Sanhedrin trying Jesus for blasphemy for claiming to be God.

I've heard all your objections before on these verses so no need to rehash them here.

These verses alone are sufficient, but they aren't....nothing is sufficient.  At this point, the burden no longer rests on me, loco, onetimehard, butterbean, etc....it's on you.  It's your life and you're free to live it however.  I would love for you to become a believer in Christ, but that simply isn't up to me; although, I will always be willing to discuss it with you.  I wish you could understand the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  It's so much more than ahmed's casual "emotional rhetoric" handwaving coupled with his mandatory, dismissive, mocking laughter.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 29, 2013, 01:47:46 PM
Well, I think we've clearly established that there isn't a verse of scripture you or ahmed or true would accept that validates that Jesus Christ is God.  

Totally correct, as I've always stated there is no clear scripture teaching that Jesus is God.  There is however lots of scripture which suggests he is man.


When Thomas sees the resurrected Christ and exclaims, "My Lord and my God!"
When Christ said to Phillip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
When Christ said, "I and the Father are one."
When Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Or John's opening discourse in his gospel about the Word becoming flesh in Jesus Christ....Chapter 1 verses 1-18 is an absolute revelation.
Or the Sanhedrin trying Jesus for blasphemy for claiming to be God.

I've heard all your objections before on these verses so no need to rehash them here.

Like I posted before to loco, the strongest evidence of Jesus' divinity is Thomas called him "My God!" and we have no documentation of Jesus denying it in response.  In the thousands of verses and quotes from Jesus in the Bible this is the strongest evidence?  That's very weak IMO. 


These verses alone are sufficient, but they aren't....nothing is sufficient.  

Very wrong for you to say "nothing is sufficient" because surely a quote where Jesus called himself God (if one existed which we've established does not) would be sufficient.  So yes, the verses which exist are not sufficient.  However, it's incorrect to say that nothing would be sufficient.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 29, 2013, 01:53:02 PM
The fact that trinitarian christians struggle to provide evidenes and we have to debate and debate and debate with elusive weak verses that can be intereprted eve so many ways shows that you have no evidence.

If it was true in effect, perhaps the bible would keep talking and talking and talking AND TALKING about the TRINITY and over and over and over again emphasizing how Jesus is literally God, and Jesus talks about being God, and so on and so on.

Instead we have a Jesus who keeps talking ABOUT God, and differentiating himself from God. Not knowing what God knows. Doing things on God's behalf, serving God, praying to God, the list goes on.

Being called prophet far more than 'god', being called MAN far more than 'god'. If we are to even accept your verses as even agreeable.

"MY GOD! MOS!" You shocked me... wait are you going to interpret that as God?

You remember when I told you about the dream about Jesus I had before becoming Muslim? I said Jesus told me 'there is only one God', as I was thinking about the trinity and it's non-sense. YOU interpret that as "oh that naturally means Jesus is God"

So if I tell you "THere is only one God", that means I am teling you I am God.

You see how silly all that is?

You are fighting a losing battle with straws. Trinity is a lie as we know it historically to be forged. End of thread.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 29, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Totally correct, as I've always stated there is no clear scripture teaching that Jesus is God.  There is however lots of scripture which suggests he is man.

Like I posted before to loco, the strongest evidence of Jesus' divinity is Thomas called him "My God!" and we have no documentation of Jesus denying it in response.  In the thousands of verses and quotes from Jesus in the Bible this is the strongest evidence?  That's very weak IMO. 

Very wrong for you to say "nothing is sufficient" because surely a quote where Jesus called himself God (if one existed which we've established does not) would be sufficient.  So yes, the verses which exist are not sufficient.  However, it's incorrect to say that nothing would be sufficient.

yep


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 29, 2013, 01:54:20 PM
The fact that trinitarian christians struggle to provide evidenes and we have to debate and debate and debate with elusive weak verses that can be intereprted eve so many ways shows that you have no evidence.

If it was true in effect, perhaps the bible would keep talking and talking and talking AND TALKING about the TRINITY and over and over and over again emphasizing how Jesus is literally God, and Jesus talks about being God, and so on and so on.

Instead we have a Jesus who keeps talking ABOUT God, and differentiating himself from God. Not knowing what God knows. Doing things on God's behalf, serving God, praying to God, the list goes on.

Being called prophet far more than 'god', being called MAN far more than 'god'. If we are to even accept your verses as even agreeable.

"MY GOD! MOS!" You shocked me... wait are you going to interpret that as God?

You remember when I told you about the dream about Jesus I had before becoming Muslim? I said Jesus told me 'there is only one God', as I was thinking about the trinity and it's non-sense. YOU interpret that as "oh that naturally means Jesus is God"

So if I tell you "THere is only one God", that means I am teling you I am God.

You see how silly all that is?

You are fighting a losing battle with straws. Trinity is a lie as we know it historically to be forged. End of thread.
yep


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 30, 2013, 06:47:28 AM
I didn't doubt that Adonai is the Hebrew word that is translated as Lord, so there isn't anything to "look up" lol.  My whole point, which I think you've forgotten, is that Jesus being called "Lord" does not serve as evidence that he is in fact God.

Who said anything here about Jesus being called "Lord"?  We are discussing Genesis 19:24.

Genesis 19:24
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 30, 2013, 08:26:13 AM
Who said anything here about Jesus being called "Lord"?  We are discussing Genesis 19:24.

Genesis 19:24
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

Because you don't link your quotes to arguments as usual I assumed your use of Genesis 19:24 was somehow a continuation of our discussion where I showed that Jesus being called "Lord" is not indicative of being "God."

Anyhow since you've clarified that you are simply discussing Genesis 19:24 in isolation, I fail to see how you can gather from that verse that there are two God persons.  It's just another example of forcing an interpretation of a verse to match what you want to believe.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 30, 2013, 01:32:15 PM
Because you don't link your quotes to arguments as usual I assumed your use of Genesis 19:24 was somehow a continuation of our discussion where I showed that Jesus being called "Lord" is not indicative of being "God."

Anyhow since you've clarified that you are simply discussing Genesis 19:24 in isolation, I fail to see how you can gather from that verse that there are two God persons.  It's just another example of forcing an interpretation of a verse to match what you want to believe.

I did link my quote to your argument.  What are you talking about?

Okay bigbobs, you are familiar with the Biblical account in Genesis 18 and 19 about God visiting Abraham, eating with Abraham, walking with Abraham shortly before God destroyed Sodom an Gomorrah, right?  Are you familiar with this?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: King Shizzo on January 30, 2013, 01:49:39 PM
So who goes to Heaven/Paradise?  We have been programmed that there is only one right religion.  Everyone else will be left behind.  Why can't you religious people explain that?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 30, 2013, 02:28:54 PM
So who goes to Heaven/Paradise?  We have been programmed that there is only one right religion.  Everyone else will be left behind.  Why can't you religious people explain that?

We're all uneducated, weak-willed, brainwashed morons that are scared of dying so we invent fantasies and flying spaghetti monsters to make us feel better about our inevitable cosmic fate.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: King Shizzo on January 30, 2013, 02:33:52 PM
We're all uneducated, weak-willed, brainwashed morons that are scared of dying.
I sense sarcasm  :D  Do you believe Christianity is the only way to salvation?



Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: Man of Steel on January 30, 2013, 02:37:30 PM
I sense sarcasm  :D  Do you believe Christianity is the only way to salvation?



I'll ask that you allow me ample time to complete my sarcasm before quoting me:

We're all uneducated, weak-willed, brainwashed morons that are scared of dying so we invent fantasies and flying spaghetti monsters to make us feel better about our inevitable cosmic fate.

That said, yes, 100%.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: King Shizzo on January 30, 2013, 02:42:31 PM
I'll ask that you allow me ample time to complete my sarcasm before quoting me:

That said, yes, 100%.
That is why I have a problem with religion.  You don't think a muslim would feel the same about the Prophet? Someone who believes in Buddha?  I would be far more interested in a religion that practiced a way of life, devoid of being forced to pick sides.  My heaven would include all faiths.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 30, 2013, 11:38:38 PM
I did link my quote to your argument.  What are you talking about?

Okay bigbobs, you are familiar with the Biblical account in Genesis 18 and 19 about God visiting Abraham, eating with Abraham, walking with Abraham shortly before God destroyed Sodom an Gomorrah, right?  Are you familiar with this?

I am somewhat familiar with Genesis 18 and 19.  What's your point?  That's also where it's quoted that Lot's two daughters each got their father drunk and had sex with him on two separate nights while he did not even know what happened right?  ::)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 30, 2013, 11:43:11 PM
That is why I have a problem with religion.  You don't think a muslim would feel the same about the Prophet? Someone who believes in Buddha?  I would be far more interested in a religion that practiced a way of life, devoid of being forced to pick sides.  My heaven would include all faiths.

Some Muslims would disagree with me, but from my understanding we cannot predict who will go to heaven or hell, and while He has given us rules to live by, it is ultimately up to God to judge.  We do know that he is Just and Merciful.  For that reason I will never accept the Christan perspective like MOS stated that he is 100% certain that he will go to heaven and equally certain that all non-Christians will go to hell.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 02:05:38 AM
I am somewhat familiar with Genesis 18 and 19.  What's your point?  That's also where it's quoted that Lot's two daughters each got their father drunk and had sex with him on two separate nights while he did not even know what happened right?  ::)

You are "somewhat" familiar with Genesis 18 and 19?  Somewhat familiar?  You have not yet read the entire Bible?  Yet you dare claim there is no Biblical support for the trinity and for the deity of Jesus Christ?    ::)

How do you interpret Genesis 18:1 through Genesis 19:24?  Take your time and read the entire account if you want to.  Who is this God person standing next to Abraham on earth while at the same time there is another God person in Heaven?

Genesis 18:1-5
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

1 Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.
2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground,
3 and said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don’t leave your servant.
4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree,
5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.” “Very well,” they replied, “do what you have said.”

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.

Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 08:49:59 AM
You are "somewhat" familiar with Genesis 18 and 19?  Somewhat familiar?  You have not yet read the entire Bible?  Yet you dare claim there is no Biblical support for the trinity and for the deity of Jesus Christ?    ::)

How do you interpret Genesis 18:1 through Genesis 19:24?  Take your time and read the entire account if you want to.  Who is this God person standing next to Abraham on earth while at the same time there is another God person in Heaven?

Genesis 18:1-5
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

1 Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.
2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground,
3 and said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don’t leave your servant.
4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree,
5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.” “Very well,” they replied, “do what you have said.”

Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.

Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.

I am familiar enough to know about the incestuous claim within those verses, which I noticed you didn't comment on.

God being in more than one place or committing actions in more than one place does not necessitate more than one "God person" as God is not limited to only being one place at one time like us.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 09:17:35 AM
I am familiar enough to know about the incestuous claim within those verses, which I noticed you didn't comment on.

God being in more than one place or committing actions in more than one place does not necessitate more than one "God person" as God is not limited to only being one place at one time like us.

There is no "incestuous claim" within those verses.  The story you refer to about Lot and his daughters doesn't start until Genesis 19:30, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.  I have no problems discussing that story if you want to start another thread, but in this thread it is irrelevant and you are only bringing it up to distract from the real discussion and avoid my questions.

bigbobs, you did not answer my question.  You and your Muslim brothers on the board keep questioning Jesus(God the Son) praying to himself(God the Father).  Yet in Genesis 19:24 there is a God person on earth raining down sulfur and fire from another God person up in Heaven.  

How do you interpret Genesis 19:24?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 09:37:48 AM
There is no "incestuous claim" within those verses.  The story you refer to about Lot and his daughters doesn't start until Genesis 19:30, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.  I have no problems discussing that story if you want to start another thread, but in this thread it is irrelevant and you are only bringing it up to distract from the real discussion and avoid my questions.

bigbobs, you did not answer my question.  You and your Muslim brothers on the board keep questioning Jesus(God the Son) praying to himself(God the Father).  Yet in Genesis 19:24 there is a God person on earth raining down sulfur and fire from another God person up in Heaven.  

How do you interpret Genesis 19:24?

I do not interpet Genesis 19:24 as though there is one "God person" on earth and another "God person" in Heaven, like I said God can be in all places at all times, and can rain down sulfur from earth and fire from heaven without necessitating two "God persons."  I put that term in quotations because I find it so incomprehensible.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
I do not interpet Genesis 19:24 as though there is not one "God person" on earth and another "God person" in Heaven, like I said God can be in all places at all times, and can rain down sulfur from earth and fire from heaven without necessitating two "God persons."  I put that term in quotations because I find it so incomprehensible.

Thank you! 

Do you believe that God really did appear on earth in human form to Abraham, or do you see this as yet another Bible corruption?


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 10:03:52 AM
Thank you!  

Do you believe that God really did appear on earth in human form to Abraham, or do you see this as yet another Bible corruption?

No I don't believe Abraham saw God, and neither should you, if you believe in John 4:12 ""No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us."


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 31, 2013, 10:14:22 AM
Oooh bigbobs laying down the smackdown.

Wait, in before more contradicting verses posted to say indeed God was seen, etc...

 ;D

Meh... loco is indeed 'loco'. In his epic failure to prove the trinity, he has resorted to creating threads about 'mozzlems' and honor killings.

Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
 
"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)"
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)"

Oh I know but they don't follow this part of the bible.

Honor killings are a part of the bible but not a part of the qur'an, islam, the sunnah, etc...

Ah what can one do but just sit there and sigh at all this :)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 10:21:59 AM
No I don't believe Abraham saw God, and neither should you, if you believe in John 4:12 ""No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us."

There are many verses in the Old Testament that say that no one has seen God, yet there are also many verses that talk about people having seen God, like Abraham and Moses for example.

If the people of the Old Testament were seeing God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Though Jesus is not God the Father, Jesus is God the Son.  Seeing Jesus is the closest thing to seeing God the Father, because Jesus and the Father are one God.

John 10:30-33
I and the Father are one.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: a_ahmed on January 31, 2013, 10:26:32 AM
hahhaha he did post contradicting verses again. At least if we are to interpret them the way he does.

It's amazing how the bible can contradict itself in the same 'book'/'chapter' and often times the same paragraph lol. Oh well at least we got loco to entertain us with it all. He is trying to prove to us that we should worship a human being even if it makes absolutely no sense, and we are just not buying into his non-sense.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 10:32:27 AM
There are many verses in the Old Testament that say that no one has seen God, yet there are also many verses that talk about people having seen God, like Abraham and Moses for example.

If the people of the Old Testament were seeing God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Though Jesus is not God the Father, Jesus is God the Son.  Seeing Jesus is the closest thing to seeing God the Father, because Jesus and the Father are one God.

John 10:30-33
I and the Father are one.

No, if the people of the Old Testament are said to have seen God, and Jesus said no one has ever seen God, then there are two implications:

a)  The old Testament contradicts Jesus' teachings (if you believe Jesus taught that he is God), and
 
b)  Jesus himself is not God because why would God say "no one has seen God" to a group
of people if He was indeed standing before them and visible to them.

Instead of admitting the obvious contradiction in a) and the dismissal of Jesus' divinity in b), you come up with ideas that dont make sense such as there being more than one "God person" yet still one God or that people in the Old Testament were seeing Jesus (Jews would not agree with this either), and that Jesus and the Fater are both God but one bipolar entity.  

Like I've said many times before, ignoring these evidences of Jesus not being God is  simply forcing an implausible interpretation just to cling to what you want to believe.  You can believe your obscure explanations, but you won't be fooling me or any other unbiased reader here.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 10:34:01 AM
hahhaha he did post contradicting verses again. At least if we are to interpret them the way he does.

It's amazing how the bible can contradict itself in the same 'book'/'chapter' and often times the same paragraph lol. Oh well at least we got loco to entertain us with it all. He is trying to prove to us that we should worship a human being even if it makes absolutely no sense, and we are just not buying into his non-sense.

LOL, and because he cannot plausibly support his beliefs from his own book he gets irritated and resorts to posting random acts of violence committed by Muslims which don't prove anything, knowing full well that such acts are committed by people of his faith as well.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 10:41:42 AM
No, if the people of the Old Testament are said to have seen God, and Jesus said no one has ever seen God, then there are two implications:

a)  The old Testament contradicts Jesus' teachings (if you believe Jesus taught that he is God), and
 
b)  Jesus himself is not God because why would God say "no one has seen God" to a group
of people if He was indeed standing before them and visible to them.

Instead of admitting the obvious contradiction in a) and the dismissal of Jesus' divinity in b), you come up with ideas that dont make sense such as there being more than one "God person" yet still one God or that people in the Old Testament were seeing Jesus (Jews would not agree with this either), and that Jesus and the Fater are both God but one bipolar entity.  

Like I've said many times before, ignoring these evidences of Jesus not being God is  simply forcing an implausible interpretation just to cling to what you want to believe.  You can believe your obscure explanations, but you won't be fooling me or any other unbiased reader here.

Why should there be only two implications?  I could turn the tables on you and say exactly the same thing about your interpretation.

They were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.

See?  That another implication.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 10:42:59 AM
Why should there be only two implications?  I could turn the tables on you and say exactly the same thing about your interpretation.

They were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.

See?  That another implication.

lol so everything has numerous implications and interpretaitons of equal plausibility therefore we don't know what to believe.  Great defence  ::)


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 10:47:38 AM
lol so everything has numerous implications and interpretaitons of equal plausibility therefore we don't know what to believe.  Great defence  ::)

No, I believe there is only one implication:

"Anyone who has seen me[Jesus] has seen the Father."  John 14:9

But you believe otherwise. 


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 10:50:26 AM
No, I believe there is only one implication:

"Anyone who has seen me[Jesus] has seen the Father."  John 14:9

But you believe otherwise. 

Based on weak arguments you have made you can't blame me for belieiving otherwise


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 10:59:03 AM
Based on weak arguments you have made you can't blame me for belieiving otherwise

As stated before, I am not here to try to convert you.  I believe in freedom of religion.

If you were wondering why so many Christians believe in one God in three persons, and why so many Christians believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, I have given you and our readers some of the Bible verses that we see as Biblical basis for these.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: bigbobs on January 31, 2013, 12:19:22 PM
As stated before, I am not here to try to convert you.  I believe in freedom of religion.

If you were wondering why so many Christians believe in one God in three persons, and why so many Christians believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, I have given you and our readers some of the Bible verses that we see as Biblical basis for these.

Yup and after reading the verses you gave me I still wonder why so many Christians believe in the Trinity or divinity of Jesus.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 05:52:39 PM
Yup and after reading the verses you gave me I still wonder why so many Christians believe in the Trinity or divinity of Jesus.

Okay.  Moving on.


Title: Re: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 05:55:19 PM
John 8:24
New International Version (NIV)

24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.


Yochanan 8:24
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

24 I said, therefore, to you that you will go to your mavet in your averos (sins), for if you do not have emunah (faith) that Ani Hu [YESHAYAH 41:4; SHEMOT 3:14-16], you will die in your chatta’im.

Shemot 3:14-16
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

14 And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH-YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you.

15 And Elohim said moreover unto Moshe, Thus shalt thou say unto Bnei Yisroel: Hashem, Elohei Avoteichem, Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, and Elohei Ya’akov, hath sent me unto you: this is Shemi l’olam, and this is My remembrance unto all generations.

16 Go, and gather the Ziknei Yisroel together, and say unto them, Hashem Elohei Avoteichem, Elohei Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya’akov, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Mitzrayim;