Man Stabs Wife and Daughter over Plans to Leave Islam...

[Nordic Superman]

I know far more than you.  And i'm not a narrow minded alarmist.  I'm not so stupid as to label an entire faith as violent based on a extreme radicals.  You however are.  Because you scare easy................  no different than the white southerner who joins the KKK.  Very small minded.

Well, you're contradicting yourself if you say you know more than me about islam yet discredit its origins, it's murderous pedophile militant founder, it's total lack of freedom of speech under sharia law, and equal rights for men and women etc etc.

Tell me oh wise brother, do you know how hard it is for a man to be convicted of rape in a islamic state under sharia law?

[OzmO]

Well, you're contradicting yourself if you say you know more than me about islam yet discredit its origins, it's murderous pedophile militant founder, it's total lack of freedom of speech under sharia law, and equal rights for men and women etc etc.

Tell me oh wise brother, do you know how hard it is for a man to be convicted of rape in a islamic state under sharia law?

The original point of the arguement is Islam is responsible for this man killing his daughter with a minor point of Islam being responsible for this violence we hear so much of around the world.


I say no.  You say yes.

I say i know many muslims on a personal level in the west who behave like normal people and aren't prone to violence.

I also say this man's choice to kill his daughter wasn't becuase of Islam, but instead becuase of a choice he made based on passion in the heat of the moment.  You say it's becuase of Islam, i say no.

You can study the religion all you want.  You can find passage after passage to support your views.  YOu can do similar things with the BIble regarding women and slaves.   

That doesn't change the fact that this nut job is a nut job with or without Islam.


But it's ok, go ahead and get all alarmed and get on your crusade.....  becuase it only shows what a scared little boy you really are.    Do you need a hug? 

[Hedgehog]

Anyone visiting areas in England with a Muslim immigrant majority, would understand the frustration of NS. I fully understand his anger. I really do. I mean, I've seen examples of young girls getting pulled out of gym class in the name of Islam here in Sweden. Not many, but there are examples, especially in the ghetto of Malmö, southern Sweden.

But I cannot accept NS's anger and posts of hateful posts.

He has an explanation, but it's not an excuse.

We has to hold ourselves to higher standards. We treat women as equals. We believe in freedom of speech. We believe in reason and rational thinking.

However, we need to also accept the fact that we are superior to these societies. We are not racially superior. Of course not. But the single fact that women are treated more equal in Western Democracies, than in 3rd world countries, is a dead give away that we are superior, as societies.

Another fact which IMO proves that our societies are superior: Homosexuals actually has a shot at living a regular life in most Western Democracies, as opposed to in Islamic countries. What happens to gay people in Iran?

A lot of people need to realize that these countries are way behind us, and that these societies aren't exotic, they're just wrong.

To use racist remarks, and show hate, is fcuked up though.

Each and every individual has to be judged by his actions. You cannot say that someone who is a Muslim, will have a medieval view on womens rights, although if he has a modern day view on womens rights, he definitely would not be a real Muslim.

Only a Muslim "on paper".

YIP
Zack

[OzmO]

Wow so an alarmist stereo typical view is ignorant?     

[Camel Jockey]

Each and every individual has to be judged by his actions. You cannot say that someone who is a Muslim, will have a medieval view on womens rights, although if he has a modern day view on womens rights, he definitely would not be a real Muslim.

Only a Muslim "on paper".

YIP
Zack

You summed up the points that I try to get across to Nordic. I'm sorry if the muslims in your communities do stupid stuff like that and rape your women. As a muslim across the pond I've never had experiences with muslims commiting acts like that, or taking such literal interpretations of the religion. Most muslims that I've encountered are not like what Nordic describes, and you can't say I hold a bias and my opinion should be discredited. It's not like I stand alone on my points as many people of non muslim backgrounds share a similar opinion, such as Ozmo.

I'm not saying you white Europeans don't have the right to be angry or that you don't have the right to stand up to something that threatens your culture, but please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

I've had problems with interaction with people different ethnic backgrounds as well, from African Americans to whites. These were't light bad experiences, but sometimes down right violent towards my family and I, yet I don't let that control me. I don't go on a mission to paint the whole group with one brush and to discredit their culture and people. I look at the positives in them, not to be a politically correct hippy, but because I realize when I see the good in them I actually end up liking them and some aspects of their cultures. I also look to some of the friends I've made from those cultures, such as the many black friends who've I'd smoked and played soccer with.

If you think for a second that Nordic's views are based entirely on his dislike of Islam, then you are mistaken and delusional. It's obvious that Islam is not the only thing he hates. I think it's safe to say that his opinions are racially motivated. I don't have a problem if he's like that because I believe in free speech and freedom, but he denies racial hate and claims his views are to discredit Islam only and nothing else. Why cannot he just be honest and say that he dislikes South Asians? Is that so hard?

[Hedgehog]

You summed up the points that I try to get across to Nordic. I'm sorry if the muslims in your communities do stupid stuff like that and rape your women. As a muslim across the pond I've never had experiences with muslims commiting acts like that, or taking such literal interpretations of the religion. Most muslims that I've encountered are not like what Nordic describes, and you can't say I hold a bias and my opinion should be discredited. It's not like I stand alone on my points as many people of non muslim backgrounds share a similar opinion, such as Ozmo.

I'm not saying you white Europeans don't have the right to be angry or that you don't have the right to stand up to something that threatens your culture, but please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

I've had problems with interaction with people different ethnic backgrounds as well, from African Americans to whites. These were't light bad experiences, but sometimes down right violent towards my family and I, yet I don't let that control me. I don't go on a mission to paint the whole group with one brush and to discredit their culture and people. I look at the positives in them, not to be a politically correct hippy, but because I realize when I see the good in them I actually end up liking them and some aspects of their cultures. I also look to some of the friends I've made from those cultures, such as the many black friends who've I'd smoked and played soccer with.

If you think for a second that Nordic's views are based entirely on his dislike of Islam, then you are mistaken and delusional. It's obvious that Islam is not the only thing he hates. I think it's safe to say that his opinions are racially motivated. I don't have a problem if he's like that because I believe in free speech and freedom, but he denies racial hate and claims his views are to discredit Islam only and nothing else. Why cannot he just be honest and say that he dislikes South Asians? Is that so hard?

I was pretty clear about pointing out that I don't think it's okay to lash out against Muslims.

Don't for a moment think that I am of the opinion that anyone ever is entitled to acts of hate or racism towards Muslims.

I can understand why someone would hate Muslims, because I've seen terrible acts committed in the name of Islam, but I could never tolerate it.

YIP
Zack

[Slippedisc]

didn't read the trhead



all i have to say is....



fuccking raghead pigs

[Tesla]

Very untrue.   Do you base this upon practical first hand experince or the stream of tainted media you watch every night?  There are large groups of radical muslims in these middle eastern countries who are barbaric, mostly in or from the very impoverished areas or the country.  But as a whole, they are not that way.  And in the western world, muslims, of which i know or have been in contact with in the hundreds over the last 20 years, are no different the average american chasing tail, partying, raising families and accumilating wealth.

You know these Jihadists would decapitate your liberal head if they got the chance.  Why stick up for them? 

[Al-Gebra]

as soon as the opportunity presents itself, i'm going to start dating hot middle eastern chicks from conservative moslem families . . . I'm going to show them the good life. 

[Slippedisc]

raghead is arabic for guy



that's right

[OzmO]

You know these Jihadists would decapitate your liberal head if they got the chance.  Why stick up for them? 

Can you read?  I'm not sticking up for a radical extremists with a track record of chopoing heads off. 

All i'm saying is that it's ignorant and false to stereo type all muslims in that light or Islam also.  and that guy who tried to kill his daughter for switching to christianity is a nut job with or with out Islam and although he may point to Islamic law as the reason for his actions it's no differnet than death row immates justifying their actions, becuase in the end they are responsible for the choices they make.

The following is NOT directed at you Tesla.

It's such a claissic neo-con thing to be such a scared pussy alarmist and catagorically  condem and stereotype whole groups of people.  Grow some fucking balls and stop being scared little bitch brainwashed pawns.  Maybe if you take your pillow sheets off your heads you could see the world a little better. 

Or maybe you are just too intellectually ignorant and have the mental agility of a small discarded soap dish and can't comprehend ideas more complex then violence to solve problems which in my opinion puts you on the same level as those islamic extremists. Seems you learn your social skills from the WWF

[Tesla]

Can you read?  I'm not sticking up for a radical extremists with a track record of chopoing heads off. 

All i'm saying is that it's ignorant and false to stereo type all muslims in that light or Islam also.  and that guy who tried to kill his daughter for switching to christianity is a nut job with or with out Islam and although he may point to Islamic law as the reason for his actions it's no differnet than death row immates justifying their actions, becuase in the end they are responsible for the choices they make.

The following is NOT directed at you Tesla.

It's such a claissic neo-con thing to be such a scared pussy alarmist and catagorically  condem and stereotype whole groups of people.  Grow some fucking balls and stop being scared little bitch brainwashed pawns.  Maybe if you take your pillow sheets off your heads you could see the world a little better. 

Or maybe you are just too intellectually ignorant and have the mental agility of a small discarded soap dish and can't comprehend ideas more complex then violence to solve problems which in my opinion puts you on the same level as those islamic extremists. Seems you learn your social skills from the WWF

I'm not stereotyping all individual Muslims.  I'm talking about the culture, and the culture is backwards.  Suicide bombers who blow up buses of Israeli children are held to be heroes.  If that's not backwards and barbaric, then I don't know what is.  In the Middle Ages crusaders who slaughtered Muslim women and children in the name of Christianity were praised as heroes back in their French and German hometowns.  How is this any different from Islam today?  The Islamic world, by and large, is stuck in the Middle Ages. 

The problem with Islam is not that some of its adherents are radical extremists.  The problem is that Islam promotes and praises these types of people.

[OzmO]

I'm not stereotyping all individual Muslims.  I'm talking about the culture, and the culture is backwards.  Suicide bombers who blow up buses of Israeli children are held to be heroes.  If that's not backwards and barbaric, then I don't know what is.  In the Middle Ages crusaders who slaughtered Muslim women and children in the name of Christianity were praised as heroes back in their French and German hometowns.  How is this any different from Islam today?  The Islamic world, by and large, is stuck in the Middle Ages. 

The problem with Islam is not that some of its adherents are radical extremists.  The problem is that Islam promotes and praises these types of people.

No, absolutely not.  YOu have 2 things here:  Palistinians and Al queda...2 different things.  That is not the culture that you are seeing.  What you are seeing in regards to suicide bombers is Palistinians who have had their land taken away by the jews, who have been oppressed, murdered, economically kept down etc...  by the israelis who have had the military machine to accomplish these ends......If you are getting oppressed like this and can't do anything about it what are you to do to fight back?  So children or fathers whose family have been killed over the years by the israelis areeasy to want to be suicide bombers.  And when this happens..... a small part of these people rejoice when a suicide bomber is successful.  The main stream palistinians just want peace and their land back.  What you see on the news, when people are rejoicing not representative of every palistinian. 

Just recently think about all the lebonese Israel killed in their over reaction to 2 kidnapped soilders by Hez for the purpose of prisoner exchange (something the sides have been doing for years).  Think about the billions in damge they did to the country of lebanon.  Think about the million cluster bombs they dropped there.  If that was done here i'd want to do what was in my power to get back at them amd so would you.  And if My family or daughter was killed becuase she srepped ona cluster bomb, or was killed by a Israeli tank,  i would dress myself in TNT and walk into a crowded Jewish Temple and kill all those fuckers.

Now thats one thing...  The other thing is Al Queda Taliban etc.......They are not representative of the Islamic faith.  They Barbaric extremist.  They are terrorists,  and our media (much of which is heaviliy influenced by Jews through owership and political lobby), has no problem  subtley lumping everyone together.  So you easily make the connected of be-headed kidnapp victims with all of Islam.  Very much far from truth.  And the majority of these people don't praise this behavior....what you see is only news coverage of the small groups who do.  Don't confuse, for example Martin Luther King's message and publisized followin g with Black extremist groups in the 1960' who advocated violence.  Same thing here when you see a huge protest against ameircan policy versus and a bunch of insurgents jumping up and don't in their masks.

[Deedee]

What does any of this have to do with the fact that in tribal cultures (any tribal culture) male lineage is the priority, women are property/chattel destined to preserve the purity of the lineage. The incident illustrated in this thread is one form of honor killings, which are routine, or at least accepted, in such cultures.

[Nordic Superman]

Fagmo, muhammad was THE representative of islam, he was a militant, ordered and commit murder, molested a child and supressed freedoms.

He he was muslims believe a great framework for leading your life. The problem is embedded on islam. Accept it, deal with it and acknoledge it before it is too late.

[OzmO]

Fagmo, muhammad was THE representative of islam, he was a militant, ordered and commit murder, molested a child and supressed freedoms.

He he was muslims believe a great framework for leading your life. The problem is embedded on islam. Accept it, deal with it and acknoledge it before it is too late.

I apoligize for your premature alarmist views.


Moses ordered the death of 3000 men, women and children.  Ever read ALL of moses law?  My point with this is, Mohamad is not the current leader of islam becuase he dead and lived in 600 AD.  Nor is the religious extemist you see running Iran or the Taliban.    That is far removed the average muslim in Tehran who owns a gas station and wants to get more western DVDs for his collection.  Or the 4th grade teacher in Berut who just wants to hangout at the local pub or club on fridays with his friends.

[Nordic Superman]

I apoligize for your premature alarmist views.


Moses ordered the death of 3000 men, women and children.  Ever read ALL of moses law?  My point with this is, Mohamad is not the current leader of islam becuase he dead and lived in 600 AD.  Nor is the religious extemist you see running Iran or the Taliban.    That is far removed the average muslim in Tehran who owns a gas station and wants to get more western DVDs for his collection.  Or the 4th grade teacher in Berut who just wants to hangout at the local pub or club on fridays with his friends.

Have you ever been outside of the US brother?

[Deedee]

I apoligize for your premature alarmist views.


Moses ordered the death of 3000 men, women and children.  Ever read ALL of moses law?  My point with this is, Mohamad is not the current leader of islam becuase he dead and lived in 600 AD.  Nor is the religious extemist you see running Iran or the Taliban.    That is far removed the average muslim in Tehran who owns a gas station and wants to get more western DVDs for his collection.  Or the 4th grade teacher in Berut who just wants to hangout at the local pub or club on fridays with his friends.

The average 4th grade teacher wouldn't be drinking in a pub on a friday night, since alcohol consumption is forbidden and punishable. People living in the US and Canada don't understand the frustrations of the Europeans because, first of all, our countries are vast and large influxes of immigrants more easily mix with the greater populations. Secondly, the immigrants coming to our countries tend to be of a certain class, to borrow a word. The europeans on the other hand, have had to make room for a great many uneducated, backwards thinking immigrants who have no desire to assimilate in any way, as well as make room for them in much more cramped communities.  (You've obviously never taken a wrong turn in Brussels and found yourself face to face with a street full of hostile, disdainful male faces and found yourself practically having to run the gauntlet because you weren't wearing a head dress.)

[OzmO]

The average 4th grade teacher wouldn't be drinking in a pub on a friday night, since alcohol consumption is forbidden and punishable. People living in the US and Canada don't understand the frustrations of the Europeans because, first of all, our countries are vast and large influxes of immigrants more easily mix with the greater populations. Secondly, the immigrants coming to our countries tend to be of a certain class, to borrow a word. The europeans on the other hand, have had to make room for a great many uneducated, backwards thinking immigrants who have no desire to assimilate in any way, as well as make room for them in much more cramped communities.  (You've obviously never taken a wrong turn in Brussels and found yourself face to face with a street full of hostile, disdainful male faces and found yourself practically having to run the gauntlet because you weren't wearing a head dress.)

I obviously haven't taken a wrong turn in Brussels, But my experience with muslims is mostly in the USA, where that kind of shit isn't tolerated.  THese people have integrated themselves into our society much much more i guess then where you are from.   Ever think those backward thinking immagrats are just that?  Nut jobs no matter where they are?  I'm mean hell, take a drive down 66th avenue at night in Oakland, or Hunters point in San Francisco or walk into the wrong trailer park in montana with the wrong skin color.

so let me ask you:  Do you think these unruley musims are representative of all muslims?

BTW, the 4th grade treacher example in Lebanon who has to watch where walks now becuase of the fucking cluster bombs.........it doesn't matter if there are pubs or not in Lebanon, i can find out, i have friends who's family still live there, but the point is he just wants to live his life free of oppression just like anyone else.

[Deedee]

Exactly. Your interaction has mostly been with people you've met in the US and mine has been mostly my experiences in Canada. Not the same kettle of fish at all. I travel alot, and quite frankly it's occasionally disconcerting.

No I don't think the nut case illustrated at the beginning of this thread is your average wacko. I think his actions were a result of his upbringing in a culture that condones that kind of treatment of women, because in essence they are viewed as possessions without rights. One of the problems in Europe is that these backwards immigrants are bringing their cultural values with them which of course clashes with our westernized world acceptance of women as equals.

This is a big problem in countries such as UK, France, probably the Netherlands has seen their share of them too.  But getting away from the female issue for a moment, although it's really the eye of the storm IMO, when was the last time a Hollywood documentary producer stabbed to death in the street for making a critical film about Islam? You say it wouldn't tolerated, but since we don't have those problems to begin with, how can we criticize those who live in countries where these issues are faced every day?

[OzmO]

Exactly. Your interaction has mostly been with people you've met in the US and mine has been mostly my experiences in Canada. Not the same kettle of fish at all. I travel alot, and quite frankly it's occasionally disconcerting.

No I don't think the nut case illustrated at the beginning of this thread is your average wacko. I think his actions were a result of his upbringing in a culture that condones that kind of treatment of women, because in essence they are viewed as possessions without rights. One of the problems in Europe is that these backwards immigrants are bringing their cultural values with them which of course clashes with our westernized world acceptance of women as equals.

This is a big problem in countries such as UK, France, probably the Netherlands has seen their share of them too.  But getting away from the female issue for a moment, although it's really the eye of the storm IMO, when was the last time a Hollywood documentary producer stabbed to death in the street for making a critical film about Islam? You say it wouldn't tolerated, but since we don't have those problems to begin with, how can we criticize those who live in countries where these issues are faced every day?

I can understand where you are coming from DD.  But we are talking about a person killing his daughter.  Not the oppression of women.  Regardless of religion think about what kind of mental state you'd have to be in to seriously attempt to kill you daughter....  Abraham even had issue with it and GOD was directly talking to him.

[Camel Jockey]

This is a big problem in countries such as UK, France, probably the Netherlands has seen their share of them too.  But getting away from the female issue for a moment, although it's really the eye of the storm IMO, when was the last time a Hollywood documentary producer stabbed to death in the street for making a critical film about Islam? You say it wouldn't tolerated, but since we don't have those problems to begin with, how can we criticize those who live in countries where these issues are faced every day?

You think that Dutch film producer actually gave a shit about the rights of muslim women, or opressed muslim people in general? His documentary was produced exclusively to discredit a people, all of whom he thinks are inferior.
That man refered to all muslims "goat fuckers", yeah I'm sure he had great intentions when he made that film. 

[Deedee]

You think that Dutch film producer actually gave a shit about the rights of muslim women, or opressed muslim people in general? His documentary was produced exclusively to discredit a people, all of whom he thinks are inferior.
That man refered to all muslims "goat fuckers", yeah I'm sure he had great intentions when he made that film. 

Yes, well, he didn't have a good word to say about anyone.  Good thing he was murdered in the street for invoking his right to free speech. Btw... your opinion here is exactly why people have an issue with Islam.

[Deedee]

I can understand where you are coming from DD.  But we are talking about a person killing his daughter.  Not the oppression of women.  Regardless of religion think about what kind of mental state you'd have to be in to seriously attempt to kill you daughter....  Abraham even had issue with it and GOD was directly talking to him.

You don't know what kind of mental state he was in... do you think the reason was something other    than that his patriarchal honor regarding his religion was being compromised? Perhaps you're just projecting your own westernized abhorence for the idea of killing a daughter and can't believe any sane person could so easily take a life. Very often these kinds of killings follow a clan meeting to decide the fate of the girl. Yes, I would say this comes under the heading of oppression of women.

[Camel Jockey]

Yes, well, he didn't have a good word to say about anyone.  Good thing he was murdered in the street for invoking his right to free speech. Btw... your opinion here is exactly why people have an issue with Islam.

And your post shows how westerners love to jump to conclusions. All I said is that his film didn't have the best of interests and it's misleading how people thought he made the film to benedit opressed muslim women. I didn't say that he didn't have the right to make the film, nor did I say that he should have been murdered in such a brutal way.

And you automatically started whining about free speech, you assumed that's what I took issue with.