On the road to DOMS

[TheAnimal]

Ok... this is the plan I want DOMS after every workout I will ensure that the elements of periodisation and variety are implemented to achieve this... It will be DOMS at all cost.
Periodisation is of my main concern within this topic.

So, the current set/rep schemes I know of and utilise are:
German Volume Training(10setsof10)
5 sets 5 reps(strength)
5 sets of 8
5 sets of 10-12

I have all the movements nailed after lots of experiance now I am trying to take the training to new levels and experiance DOMS like never before ensuring I don't adapt to one particular method. I am aware that low reps is important(for continued strength gains and test. output) and so is the pump(growth hormone output - lactic acid responses) experianced in the higher rep ranges.

My question and knowledge I wish  to derive in this thread for those of you whom experiance a lot DOMS is how often do use different routines and which routines do you use. I will continue trial and error in this periodisation program to achieve the optimum for muscle growth as we all know that the human body is extremly adaptive and simply going into the gym and doing the same rep/set scheme is not entirely effective.

Thanks, for your input.

[Princess L]

I want DOMS after every workout.  It will be DOMS at all cost

Why?

[TheAnimal]

So I can grow 

[Princess L]

So I can grow 

DOMS = Hypertrophy = Myth

[pumpster]

DOMS = Hypertrophy = Myth

Very debatable, nothing conclusive. Intuitively & from experience, I think it does matter.

[gibberj2]

i get sore the day after every workout every time no matter what. i dont understand how people don't get sore.

[pumpster]

You're the exception, and/or aren't training as often.

[JPM]

Taking the DOM's highway to muscle growth might lead to a dead end. There is no suggestion that delayed anything will increase muscle size. (but you will find some grant research papers that try to prove this point, but they offer no solid evidence of proof)  Following that thread, hitting one's arm with a 2X4, so many times a week, will create soreness (DOM, a form of) the next few following day's. Also a short pump period will follow that arm hitting. So can we expect 18" guns in three month's?

Two major factors (among other complex matters) encourage a pattern for hypertrophy in the tissue it's self; sarcoplasmic (fluid, as; blood/water ) & myofibrils (deep tissue fiber recruitment). Neither is governed by the DOM reaction.

If you workout with serious intent and a logical training plan you will make good gains, with or without ever approaching unneeded DOM. Or for that matter, even getting sore at all. Good Luck.

[gibberj2]

pumpster are you talking about me?

[pumpster]

Ya, the degree of DOMS varies; some very rarely get it no matter what, others quite the opposite, many in between. Also affected by frequency & intensity of training.

Whether DOMS makes a difference is unknown; in which case the wise path if one wants to cover all bases is to take no chances and achieve DOMS as often as possible.

Many are sure just from experience that it makes a difference, as i do. Vince Basile's one who's lifted for decades and believes strongly in the advantages in creating DOMS as often as possible.

[TheAnimal]

Taking the DOM's highway to muscle growth might lead to a dead end. There is no suggestion that delayed anything will increase muscle size. (but you will find some grant research papers that try to prove this point, but they offer no solid evidence of proof)  Following that thread, hitting one's arm with a 2X4, so many times a week, will create soreness (DOM, a form of) the next few following day's. Also a short pump period will follow that arm hitting. So can we expect 18" guns in three month's?

Two major factors (among other complex matters) encourage a pattern for hypertrophy in the tissue it's self; sarcoplasmic (fluid, as; blood/water ) & myofibrils (deep tissue fiber recruitment). Neither is governed by the DOM reaction.

If you workout with serious intent and a logical training plan you will make good gains, with or without ever approaching unneeded DOM. Or for that matter, even getting sore at all. Good Luck.

Thanks for clearing it up... I will concentrate on periodisation but with less emphasis on achieving soreness just high intensity and effort.

[JPM]

Animal: I have three major periodization cycles in my yearly training. Each will last from 6-8 weeks. Six if I feel gains are slowing down and are not what they should be for what ever reason (bored). Eight weeks is the cut off period, as a max effort, even if I'm still making some progress. After each cycle is done, I will take a week or two off of training.

One cycle is GVT.  Next is Power Rack training, including true (not breaks or burns like in BB'ing) partials, dead stops, lockouts, holds,etc (my favorite way to train). The third is general BB'ing/lifting.  Rep's are usually higher, like 12 to 15 and as high high as 20 with Squats, BB Hacks, DL's, Hi-Pulls, etc. This is volume training but not in the usual sense. More designed towards the PL'ing/Olympic lifting workout style. Trying to increase total weight (LBs/ton's) lifted each workout. I keep an exercise log and try to beat the last workout in total ton's lifted.

When beginning to work into each new cycle I may be a little sore after the first workout or two, but nothing outstanding. When increasing the focus and weight during each workout I really don't feel any discomfort from training. I actually feel very hyped and on top of the world. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Thanks for clearing it up... I will concentrate on periodisation but with less emphasis on achieving soreness just high intensity and effort.

It's not clear at all; I call BS on anyone who claims to know conclusively. Some of the top BBs and trainers believe DOMS is vital. Here's a recent thread:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=101846.275

In the absence of conclusive evidence, it's smarter to cover all bases by going for it. DOMS as often as possible, through any number of training approaches, using moderate reps, reasonably short rests and progressive resistance.

Personally it's fairly obvious to me from experimentation that intensity + trial & error to find the most effective exercises = superior mind-muscle connections = more intense muscle stimulation + consequent increase in DOMS frequency. While it's possible to grow without it, DOMS is anecdotally a vital ingredient.DOMS provides concrete evidence that the muscle's been effectively worked; an absence of DOMS does not provide that.

[candidate2025]

if i workout easy i am sore the day after. but if i give it 100% percent i am not sore untill two days after. its weird...sort of like the muscle is to fatigued to be sore untill it gets at leats a full day of rest.

[xpac2]

DOMS = Hypertrophy = Myth

Do you have any EXPERIENCE with training or do you just regurgitate the "studies" and crap articles you read off the web? Training is done in the gym not from a book or the internet. Years of lifting the iron make you an expert.

[gibberj2]

so because i get sore very easily what does that make me?

[pumpster]

so because i get sore very easily what does that make me?

Who knows.

[TheAnimal]

It is hard to dissmiss the fact that when we change around exercises, routines or experiance higher intensity that increased DOMS is a direct correlation to this with a few exceptions. Instinctively many of us whom have trained from advanced to beginners see this connection I do still see it as an indication of a training session succession or failure.

[pumpster]

Then why did you so readily say this after asking the question in detailed fashion?

Thanks for clearing it up... I will concentrate on periodisation but with less emphasis on achieving soreness just high intensity and effort.

The points in your first post are intriguing; periodization's not highly studied & should be explored, just as you've outlined. Many of the programs that are supposed to work may work only for the short-term:

Ok... this is the plan I want DOMS after every workout I will ensure that the elements of periodisation and variety are implemented to achieve this... It will be DOMS at all cost.
Periodisation is of my main concern within this topic.

My question and knowledge I wish  to derive in this thread for those of you whom experiance a lot DOMS is how often do use different routines and which routines do you use. I will continue trial and error in this periodisation program to achieve the optimum for muscle growth as we all know that the human body is extremly adaptive and simply going into the gym and doing the same rep/set scheme is not entirely effective.

[JPM]

Actually years of lifting the iron does not always make one an expert. Wish it were so. If your one of those people who have been lifting for 15- 20 year's and pretty much look about the same as the average construction worker, I wouldn't think you had reached any were near true potential. Twenty years experience, yes. But experience does not always mean workable knowledge when it comes to developing body muscle mass, power and being a BB'ing success. Sad part is is that a lot of these 15-20 year vet's, not gaining near the muscle size they always wanted, will diet down, looking like a skinned rabbit, and proclaim themselves as successful BB'ers.  But 3% body fat does not mean a muscular and impressive body. It just means your skinny.

I read the thread that The Pumpster kindly offered. I do respect Basile and his personal experience. But will have to agree with CT (read his interesting stuff at T-nation from time to time) and the degree, or lack of, DOM would have on obtaining progressive muscular growth. I find that highly trained PL'ers and Olympic lifters (as well as heavy duty, serious BB'ers) rarely get sore from the huge weight's used. Because they have superior conditioning, the body/CNS is adjusted to these higher levels of stress. Micro-Trauma (recovery and the repair of) tissue/cell rupture will not need to send out a three alarm siren that they have been worked hard, by indicating soreness. Good Luck.

[Princess L]

Do you have any EXPERIENCE with training
Years of lifting the iron make you an expert.

I guess that makes me an expert 

[Princess L]

I was merely trying to make the point that DOMS has no per se link with growth.
Often times people who get sore all the time (due to low training frequency) grow poorly, people who don't get sore (they train more often) grow better. Add to the vast differences in who gets sore and who doesn't. People usually get the most sore at the beginning of a training cycle, and grow best at the end (when DOMS is less). Many people never get sore but the muscle grows just fine.  Contrarily, some people always get sore, and don’t grow (take calves for example)

The point was simply that DOMS doesn't tell you jack about growth.  Growth tells you if you're growing, not DOMS.

According to a relatively recent (and thorough) study, DOMS is more associated with the connective tissue surrounding the muscle than muscle fibers, and highly associated with the inflammation response in the connective tissue. Diet also greatly influences immune function (such as immune cells and the chemicals that they release), so diet (especially carbs) can play a role in DOMS.

Malm C, Sjodin TL, Sjoberg B, Lenkei R, et. al. Leukocytes, cytokines, growth factors and hormones in human skeletal muscle and blood after uphill or downhill running. J Physiol. 2004 May 1;556(Pt 3):983-1000. Epub 2004 Feb 6. (a very extensive study).

Exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation: fact or fiction? Acta Physiol Scand. 2001 Mar;171(3):233-9.

[Vince B]

Pumpster suggested I look at this thread.

Well, hypertrophy is a physical process and opinions might be right or wrong but have nothing to do with reality. What I mean is that just because you strongly believe something doesn't mean that it is true. Some are lucky to discover the truth but most will believe what they know from personal anecdotal experience.

What is known about DOMS? Lots of irrelevant stuff as far as hypertrophy is concerned. They, the scientists, are more interested in helping athletes overcome the soreness! That shows that the scientists are mostly university staff who have typical anti-bodybuilding attitudes. When scientists ask the right questions they might design research to know more about DOMS and hypertrophy.

The test for the truth of hypertrophy theories is measured growth. This is not as easy as it seems because muscles can increase in size because of various responses.

What do I believe from my experience, reading and observations? DOMS is associated with rapid growth. Get a muscle very sore and then keep it sore. Eat enough so you are gaining weight and you should grow rapidly. 1/10 inch per workout for arms and calves is achievable and perhaps more than this can be produced. There is hardly any research on maximum hypertrophy except in animal studies. Such research suggests that humans have way more hypertrophy capacity if they can trigger it.

What usually occurs in bodybuilding is that most people who have some success with training will stick with what they know and believe and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with them. I find posting on bodybuilding sites to be almost worthless. Occasionally, there are individuals with capable minds who can process information in a sensible and rational manner. Clearly, all theories cannot be true. Some theories are closer to the truth than others. Who is to judge this and by what method? There are no univerally accepted experts in human hypertrophy. Therefore, arguing on discussion boards is frustrating and time-consuming. I persist but it is not at all a fruitful enterprise. People make too many general statements and soon enough things degenerate into some sort of quagmire instead of a sensible discussion. Instead of contibuting to a process towards the truth, what happens is that most bodybuilders go away unenlightened while retaining their pet beliefs and theories.

[gibberj2]

You say keeping it sore Vince? Do you suggest working a muscle before you recover from the soreness? whenever i do that i can hardly lift.

[Vince B]

The essence of bodybuilding is about three things. Stimulus, frequency and nutrition. If you don't have each of these ingredients optimal you are unlikely to grow much at all. Most people equate bodybuilding with a mysterious process that takes time. That is nonsense. Growth should be rapid and measurable after each effective workout. We need to find out what exactly is necessary and how much training is sufficient for hypertrophy. Ditto for nutrition.

Science tells us what we anecdotally know. Trained muscles are hard to keep growing. What happens is that muscles adapt and when they do the resistance to growth prevents further hypertrophy. You have to avoid triggering the RBE or repeated bout effect. The way to do this is to get the target muscle very sore and then retrain it before that soreness goes away. How often? Not sure. Perhaps every 3rd day might be the best compromise. Even with sore muscles you can still train them heavy. What you need to do is warm up doing many, many lighter sets while adding resistance after every set. I recommend starting out with 40 to 50 reps for the first set and adding resistance and dropping reps until you get to around 12 to 15 reps. Then do sets every 3 minutes or so with the maximum resistance. Don't let the reps drop below about 8 reps or you won't get much benefit. If you do 5 reps you will also grow but are courting injuries and your form might deteriorate. It is crucial that you actually put severe tension on target muscles and not those assisting you to move that muscle. I am not sure how many maximum sets are necessary but at least 5 might be sufficient to induce some hypertrophy. It is unknown or established if many more sets will contribute any more to growth. There is speculation that training from 4 to 8 hours on a muscle might induce maximum hypertrophy for that day. Can you imagine any university endorsing such research protocols?

If you don't gain weight you are probably not growing. Supplements, I believe, are probably not required. Too much suspect research and too much BS from supplement companies and magazine writers who are not authorities in hypertrophy.