On the road to DOMS

[Marty Champions]

What i'm saying is, let's talk about the effect/benefit on the muscle using something different like longer rests with heavier weight, or any other variation..

more weight with more rest would cause the muscle to 'stretch' more isometrically

less weight less rest causes the fluid levels to rise in muscle and 'stretch' in a different way but in some ways similiar to using more weight. you are 'pumping' more fluids in, and your muscles are mainly water. so with a reasonable less weight less rest you are killing 'two' birds with one stone. 'stretch' of the muscle in isometric contraction and 'pumping' the 'food that we eat' IINTO our muscles which lay the 'foundation' 'framing' and 'roofing' ect that are used to build our 'tower of POWER'

[pumpster]

more weight with more rest would cause the muscle to 'stretch' more isometrically

less weight less rest causes the fluid levels to rise in muscle and 'stretch' in a different way but in some ways similiar to using more weight. you are 'pumping' more fluids in, and your muscles are mainly water. so with a reasonable less weight less rest you are killing 'two' birds with one stone. 'stretch' of the muscle in isometric contraction and 'pumping' the 'food that we eat' IINTO our muscles which lay the 'foundation' 'framing' and 'roofing' ect that are used to build our 'tower of POWER'

No offense but i'm uninterested in your theories as they're utter speculation even if you don't know it.

Much more interesting is to share actual experiences with different protocols.

[Marty Champions]

No offense but i'm uninterested in your theories as they're utter speculation even if you don't know it.

Much more interesting is to share actual experiences with different protocols.

you are hard headed, i have tried nearly all 'protocols'

[TheAnimal]

I doubt you have tried periodisation!!   
Its worth a try but its complicated in terms of bodybuilding but I am on the task!

[TheAnimal]

Im finding it really hard to find information on the subject however:

• The main concern of the program is that it will ensure continued growth as we all have this drilled in our heads by now the body is a highly adaptive organism.
• Also, primarly another interesting factor that will considered is that there are different important types of hypertrophy.Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy refers to an increase in energy substances in the muscle cell as glycogen and creatine(GVT training would involve this) Whilst also we have 'real muscle growth' as a thickening of the muscle fiber itself refered to as 'Myofibrillar hypertrophy'
• The hormonal responses will also benefit as the lower reptition with longer rest periods promote increased testosterone whilst higher repetition work with less rest will induce lactic acid consequently resulting in greater growth hormone output. All of which play vital roles in 'building muscle' as we all know.
• One of my worries of a program of such nature is that strength/myofibrillar hypertropy training phases would involve lower volume of repetitive effort therefore perhaps reducing the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy effects which is known to not last as long as 'real muscle growth'. Therefore the timing needs to be spot on, I will continue to find research into the "staying power" of the glycogen/creatine overcompensation. One source has said that after these high volume training phases the extra glycogen will be put to use in the 'real muscle growth process. "Since your body’s recuperation abilities were built up to the maximum by the previous phase and the volume has gone down dramatically, these extra recuperation abilities are used to increase strength and build more muscle mass." How great does that sound!

You guys probably all know these basics, from this we can also take that these "build your arm in a day" are not going to cause long term gains due to the predominant outcome just being extra glycogen stored in the muscles causing bigger measurement which is not bad!

NOTE: On the note of Vince B saying "everybody's an expert in the iron game" this is so true and Im just a chump trying to find some answers and realised that people who follow the same training scheme(like a religious affair ala H.I.T. and HST) are doing things right but only in a few regards when in reality all things need to be considered.

This is some further reading on hypertrophy which some of you may have come across
http://members.optusnet.com.au/theanimal1/hypertrophy_hyperplasia.pdf

[TheAnimal]

One other observation I have made is that why does it seem second nature for people to see adding variety( in the aim of creating constant progression) in their workouts only by changing  the exercise they perform?

[TheAnimal]

Sorry for all these posts but they are different topics.
I have read in Vince's topics that he negates the effectiveness of the deadlift!
Ok, for one you know this! YOU HAVE PREACHED THIS!!
That stimulating a muscle results in growth elsewhere this is  because of hormones!
What better exercise to do this than deadlifts an exercise which seemingly uses all your joints. Sure you TORE a muscle but it f'n STUPID to do an underhand grip in the first place thats ASKING to rip then bicep right of the tendon thats why straps are great.
Anyway  each to their own I suppose ,but it really is a great exercise and I am sure your views will ALWAYS be slanted as you injured yourself on it, just don't be so hard on those who do them.

[pumpster]

Thanks for the posts. Ya that's an issue, longer rests should mean less lactic acid. I'm in the process of retrying this approach though i have to admit it's hard to wait longer between sets as i feel it may increase the potential for injury. No basis for that other than the fact the cool down's more pronounced.

I'm in agreement with VC on deads. I'd say it's unwise to say that just because you haven't gotten injured that the idea holds no water. IMO the exercise by it's nature is stressful; if it has to be done better to use higher reps, or do hyperextensions instead.

you are hard headed, i have tried nearly all 'protocols'

You've done a poor job sharing your experiences here. Your posts aren't interesting.

[Marty Champions]

peoeple use far too much weight on deadlift.

people should just have 225 on the bar using short to moderate rest periods for a killer back pump

[Marty Champions]

You've done a poor job sharing your experiences here. Your posts aren't interesting.

if i want to be interesting ill give details about my weekly/monthly flings with females......

you need to think about something, if you dont see changes from month to month and perhaps week to week then you are just maintaining

[pumpster]

peoeple use far too much weight on deadlift.

people should just have 225 on the bar using short to moderate rest periods for a killer back pump

We actually agree on something.

[MidniteRambo]

Nothing to add on the topic, all I wanted to say is great title, on par with "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "The Grapes of Wrath."

[pumpster]

Yes, it's a true classic!

[Vince B]

People will post on muscle discussion boards to justify what they believe. They seldom are going to abandon any belief at all. If someone believes deadlifts are going to help them in bodybuilding what can anyone say to refute that? It then becomes a waste of time because we are not discussing any issue at all but merely posting our pet beliefs and ideas.

What is the test of the truth of factual statements? If I state that deadlifts are dangerous what is the proof of this statement? Does the fact that one of two people tear biceps count? Perhaps. Can anyone demonstrate that doing heavy deadlifts is a safe practice for everyone? I doubt it. I try to imagine what benefits doing deadlifts could have for a bodybuilder and fail to find anything convincing at all. Others think I am blind. So we both go away changing nothing at all. I post my experiences to warn others to be careful and some come here and say that is nonsense. So much for having good intentions on these sites.

Daddywaddy was onto something re pumping vs stretching. However, those words are rather undefined concepts and relate to physical processes that are probably not understood completely. Putting a muscle in a stretched position is not the same and pumping it and 'stretching' the tissue. His example shows a typical use of terms and that is probably not good enough for scientific type discussions.

For example, try to define the concept 'strength'. It is not as easy as you think. See if you can have an operational definition that can be used in testing and measuring. We all know what strength is but we cannot properly define it. Thus, such poorly defined terms can mean different things and we are at loggerheads because of our conflicting vocabularies.

[pumpster]

My view of deadlifts: heavy weight will achieve what added benefits, exactly? The development of errectors can be achieved with moderate weight. Specifically within the context of also doing other good overall movements such as squats, benches, military presses, maybe even cleans, what are the added benefits of heavy deads?

If someone can tell me i'd like to hear it but the additional benefits of heavy deads seems marginal while the downsides are pronounced.

[Vince B]

There is so much that bodybuilders believe about training and muscles just because it was passed on to them via other people. Even writers for magazines perpetuate the beliefs and information.

How many of the following statements about bodybuilding are true?

1. You need protein supplements.

2. Free weights are better than machines.

3. It is easy to overtrain.

4. There are individuals who are hardgainers.

5. If you can't make gains quickly you are a hardgainer.

6. Everyone using steroids gets big muscles.

7. Lots of people have PhD degrees in hypertrophy and bodybuilding.

8. Drugs are needed to get big.

9. All training theories work for someone out there.

10. Some people grow new muscle cells, and this is called hyperplasia.

11. If you stress a muscle it should grow.

12. Some people have more muscle fibers than others.

13. You need to let a muscle recover for it to grow.

14. Training a muscle once a week is good enough to make it grow.

15. Variety will overcome the training bout effect.

16. You need periodic lay-offs to keep growing.

17. Training a muscle daily will not allow it to grow.

18. All bodybuilders need extra vitamins and minerals via pills.

19. It takes at least 5 years to get to your maximum size.

20. You won't tear a muscle if you warmup properly.

21. If you can get your arms to 17 you should know enough to get them to 18 inches.

22. Larry Scott, Arnold S, and Mike Mentzer all did equivalent things to get big.

23. It is easy to comprehend bodybuilding research.

24. Guys who got big know how to train properly.

25. It is not possible to put 2 inches on your arms in one month training naturally.

[pumpster]

Nice list with some classics that are swallowed whole by much of the populace. There are some great ones there, including my fave the once-weekly training dogma. The ones who propose this always do so in an all-knowing, slightly condescending manner in addressing the unconverted masses.


Here are some more:

-"Their training methods only work because of drugs."

-"Close-grip benches are the best for triceps size, because you can use more weight." This is a favorite. Sometimes dips are substituted for close-grips on this one.

-"Compounds are better than isolations for size."

-"Cables are only for toning." Another great one. This statement is usually followed by: "Cables and machines are for pussies." and/or "Free weights are the only way to get big because of stablizer muscles."

-"Pros know how to train better than anyone else." and the corollary: "He's not big so he doesn't know how to train."

-"Strict form is essential." and the corollary: "Full range ROMs are essential."

[Hedgehog]

There is so much that bodybuilders believe about training and muscles just because it was passed on to them via other people. Even writers for magazines perpetuate the beliefs and information.

How many of the following statements about bodybuilding are true?

1. You need protein supplements.

2. Free weights are better than machines.

3. It is easy to overtrain.

4. There are individuals who are hardgainers.

5. If you can't make gains quickly you are a hardgainer.

6. Everyone using steroids gets big muscles.

7. Lots of people have PhD degrees in hypertrophy and bodybuilding.

8. Drugs are needed to get big.

9. All training theories work for someone out there.

10. Some people grow new muscle cells, and this is called hyperplasia.

11. If you stress a muscle it should grow.

12. Some people have more muscle fibers than others.

13. You need to let a muscle recover for it to grow.

14. Training a muscle once a week is good enough to make it grow.

15. Variety will overcome the training bout effect.

16. You need periodic lay-offs to keep growing.

17. Training a muscle daily will not allow it to grow.

18. All bodybuilders need extra vitamins and minerals via pills.

19. It takes at least 5 years to get to your maximum size.

20. You won't tear a muscle if you warmup properly.

21. If you can get your arms to 17 you should know enough to get them to 18 inches.

22. Larry Scott, Arnold S, and Mike Mentzer all did equivalent things to get big.

23. It is easy to comprehend bodybuilding research.

24. Guys who got big know how to train properly.

25. It is not possible to put 2 inches on your arms in one month training naturally.

How many of these things are actually taught in bodybuilding magazines?

YIP
Zack

[TheAnimal]

How many of these things are actually taught in bodybuilding magazines?

YIP
Zack

owned.
Just a friendly request is that this thread steers clear of the "im a non-conformist"  and "pushing my own thoughts" undertones which seemingly have plagued all intelligent discussion regarding building muscle  on getbig.

[Vince B]

I have read most of the bodybuilding magazines dating from the mid 1940s. The theories that various writers have do not constitute much at all. Sure they mean well but most perpetuate theories and few seldom originate anything at all. Thus, when those people write articles their prejudices, misinformation, and false theories get published. They unwittingly pass on a lot of the rubbish that everyone ends up believing. That is how insidious this is.

Take one concept. Overtraining. What the hell is that? Show me any studies defining that concept or demonstrating what it is. In the absence of any such definition we find all manner of explanations and theories that show nothing at all. It has yet to be established there is any such thing. Yet just about everyone believes there is such a thing. There are so many charlatans in bodybuilding that it is embarrassing. We, as a group, are almost devoid of any intellectual rigour about hypertrophy. It is any wonder, then, that there is so much confusion in bodybuilding?

[MidniteRambo]

Take one concept. Overtraining. What the hell is that? Show me any studies defining that concept or demonstrating what it is. In the absence of any such definition we find all manner of explanations and theories that show nothing at all. It has yet to be established there is any such thing.

I agree with you that many myths are propogated and spread in the muscle mags. I disagree that overtraining is such a concept. Overtraining is well-documented in the literature and is generally defined as "Untreated overreaching that results in chronic decreases in performance and impaired ability to train. Other problems may result and may require medical attention."

The sources are too numerous to mention here but include:

Costill, D.L., Flynn, M.G., Kirwan, J.P., Houmard, J.A., Mitchell, J.B., Thomas, R. & Park, S.H. (1988). Effect of repeated days of intensified training on muscle glycogen and swimming performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 20, 249-254.

Davis, J.M. & Hertler-Colbert, L. (1997). The athlete's immune system, intense exercise, and overtraining. In: Lamb, D.R. & Murray, R. (Eds.). Optimizing Sport Performance: Perspectives in Exercise Science and Sports Medicine. Vol. 10, (pp.269-311).

Fry, R.W., Morton, A.R. & Keast, D. (1991). Overtraining in athletes: an update. Sports Medicine, 12, 32-65.

Krieder, R.B., Fry, A.C. & O'Toole, M.L. (1998). Overtraining in Sport. Human Kinetics: Champaign, IL.

Kuipers, H. (1998). Training and overtraining: an introduction. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 30, 1137-1139.

Kuipers, H. & Keizer, H.A. (1988). Overtraining in elite athletes: review and future directions. Sports Medicine, 6, 79-920.

Morgan, W.P., Brown, D.R., Raglin, J.S., O'Connor, P.J. & Ellickson, K. A. (1987). Psychological monitoring of overtraining and staleness. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 21, 107-113.

O'Connor, P.J. (1997). Overtraining and staleness. In: W.P. Morgan (Ed.). Physical Activity & Mental Health. (pp. 145-160). Taylor & Francis, Washington, D.C.

Raglin, J.S. Overtraining and staleness: Psychometric monitoring of endurance athletes. (1993). In R.N. Singer, M. Murphey & L.K. Tennet (Eds), Handbook of Research in Sport Psychology. (pp. 840-850), Macmillan: New York.

Raglin, J.S., & Wilson, G.S. (In press). Overtraining in athletes: In Emotion in Sports. Y.L.Hanin, (Ed.). Human Kinetics.

Urhausen, A., Gabriel, H.H.W., Weiler, B. & Kindermann, W. (1998). Ergometric and psychological findings during overtraining: a long-term follow-up study in endurance athletes. International Journal of Sports Medicine.19, 114-120.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

     
 
 
 

[Marty Champions]

I agree with you that many myths are propogated and spread in the muscle mags. I disagree that overtraining is such a concept. Overtraining is well-documented in the literature and is generally defined as "Untreated overreaching that results in chronic decreases in performance and impaired ability to train. Other problems may result and may require medical attention."

The sources are too numerous to mention here but include:

Costill, D.L., Flynn, M.G., Kirwan, J.P., Houmard, J.A., Mitchell, J.B., Thomas, R. & Park, S.H. (1988). Effect of repeated days of intensified training on muscle glycogen and swimming performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 20, 249-254.

Davis, J.M. & Hertler-Colbert, L. (1997). The athlete's immune system, intense exercise, and overtraining. In: Lamb, D.R. & Murray, R. (Eds.). Optimizing Sport Performance: Perspectives in Exercise Science and Sports Medicine. Vol. 10, (pp.269-311).

Fry, R.W., Morton, A.R. & Keast, D. (1991). Overtraining in athletes: an update. Sports Medicine, 12, 32-65.

Krieder, R.B., Fry, A.C. & O'Toole, M.L. (1998). Overtraining in Sport. Human Kinetics: Champaign, IL.

Kuipers, H. (1998). Training and overtraining: an introduction. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 30, 1137-1139.

Kuipers, H. & Keizer, H.A. (1988). Overtraining in elite athletes: review and future directions. Sports Medicine, 6, 79-920.

Morgan, W.P., Brown, D.R., Raglin, J.S., O'Connor, P.J. & Ellickson, K. A. (1987). Psychological monitoring of overtraining and staleness. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 21, 107-113.

O'Connor, P.J. (1997). Overtraining and staleness. In: W.P. Morgan (Ed.). Physical Activity & Mental Health. (pp. 145-160). Taylor & Francis, Washington, D.C.

Raglin, J.S. Overtraining and staleness: Psychometric monitoring of endurance athletes. (1993). In R.N. Singer, M. Murphey & L.K. Tennet (Eds), Handbook of Research in Sport Psychology. (pp. 840-850), Macmillan: New York.

Raglin, J.S., & Wilson, G.S. (In press). Overtraining in athletes: In Emotion in Sports. Y.L.Hanin, (Ed.). Human Kinetics.

Urhausen, A., Gabriel, H.H.W., Weiler, B. & Kindermann, W. (1998). Ergometric and psychological findings during overtraining: a long-term follow-up study in endurance athletes. International Journal of Sports Medicine.19, 114-120.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

     
 
 
 

untreated is a key word you can 'treat' overtraining with FOOD therefore, there really is no such thing as overtraining because we dont have to worry about not eating, food is plentiful

[gibberj2]

does that mean you can train unlimited if you eat unlimited?

[pumpster]

untreated is a key word you can 'treat' overtraining with FOOD therefore, there really is no such thing as overtraining because we dont have to worry about not eating, food is plentiful

Absurd as well as poorly-worded. Food is very important but not to the extent he's describing.

[Vince B]

Reply to MidniteRambo. I acknowledge that there is plenty of research re overtraining and sports performance but show me any re hypertrophy training. The researchers are not interested in hypertrophy or at least maximum hypertrophy in humans and that is why we see very little pertinent research that is important to bodybuilding.

Here is the problem presented by animal research and hypertrophy. How did the fowl gain up to 300% in a muscle in one month? Is this phenomenon applicable to humans? If so, then overtraining as we know it does not exist. Perhaps instead of 'training' we should be talking about length of time under tension and whether there are limits for growth in humans.