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Author Topic: Overtraining: bodybuilding's biggest myth ?  (Read 9175 times)
Stavios
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« on: November 12, 2006, 08:17:33 AM »

What do you guys think about overtraining ?
it seems like everybody nowadays is scared of overtraining, ence the popular way of training 1 bodypart once a week.

now, have you ever seen someone with a bodypart who is totally overpowering his body cause he is training it almost everyday ? I think the answer is yes !
For an example:
-JOJ said he got his traps got huge because he did shrugs at the end of every workout to show off his strenght when he was younger.
if he was training them everyday, he was clearly overtraining them. yet, they got fucking huge

-Weightlifters squat everyday and I have heard that in some countries where the sport is really popular, they train 2 or 3 times a day !
their legs and back are very thick too

IMO, overtraining is the biggest lie ever cause if it was so bad to train a bodypart more than twice a week, those guys would be tiny

discuss
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 08:20:35 AM »

What do you guys think about overtraining ?
it seems like everybody nowadays is scared of overtraining, ence the popular way of training 1 bodypart once a week.

now, have you ever seen someone with a bodypart who is totally overpowering his body cause he is training it almost everyday ? I think the answer is yes !
For an example:
-JOJ said he got his traps got huge because he did shrugs at the end of every workout to show off his strenght when he was younger.
if he was training them everyday, he was clearly overtraining them. yet, they got fucking huge

-Weightlifters squat everyday and I have heard that in some countries where the sport is really popular, they train 2 or 3 times a day !
their legs and back are very thick too

IMO, overtraining is the biggest lie ever cause if it was so bad to train a bodypart more than twice a week, those guys would be tiny

discuss
Olympic lifters do train some lifts everyday but they do only singles, doubles or triples so they're not taking the muscle to failure and breaking down the fibers the same way that a bb'er is.
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Stavios
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 08:24:14 AM »

Olympic lifters do train some lifts everyday but they do only singles, doubles or triples so they're not taking the muscle to failure and breaking down the fibers the same way that a bb'er is.

very true sarcasm
good point
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 08:29:34 AM »

there's need for recovery and then eventually growth...that's why we don't train that often...my oppinion.
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2006, 08:32:27 AM »

for weight lifters, getting the technique, speed and neurological pathways is much more important than mass.

in fact they would be actively trying to avoid excessive mass.
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2006, 08:37:35 AM »

for weight lifters, getting the technique, speed and neurological pathways is much more important than mass.

in fact they would be actively trying to avoid excessive mass.

As well as their target weightclass bodyweight.
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2006, 08:46:42 AM »

Depends on what type of training you mean. If it's 2 hour long sessions for a natural more than 4 or 5 times a week, that's probably overtraining.
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Stavios
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 08:47:03 AM »

for weight lifters, getting the technique, speed and neurological pathways is much more important than mass.

in fact they would be actively trying to avoid excessive mass.
yeah I know their goal isn't really to gain mass but the point is, they do !
even with training the same bodypart 5 times a week and sometimes more !
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 08:51:36 AM »

So, you're saying that training a bodypart every day (5+times a week) will stimulate growth? Or you asking?
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Stavios
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 08:53:39 AM »

So, you're saying that training a bodypart every day (5+times a week) will stimulate growth? Or you asking?
simply asking
I am no expert but it makes me wondering.

if training 5 times a week is so bad, those guys shouldn't be able to gain mass yet they have incredible tighs and back devolopement
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 09:03:53 AM »

simply asking
I am no expert but it makes me wondering.

if training 5 times a week is so bad, those guys shouldn't be able to gain mass yet they have incredible tighs and back devolopement

I'm no expert neither, but like Sarcasm said, their type of training is specific to their sport and involves low reps as well as concentraing on speed and form, not hypertrophy, so its not as taxing.
If one was to attempt hypertrophy inducing training at such high frequency, the nervous system would not handle it.
Much like gymnasts and swimmers, their muscles used for their sports-delts and pecs for swimmers, delts arms, pecs for gymnasts- development does take place after a while, but not anywhere near the rate which bbers experience, assisted or not.
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 09:33:18 AM »

 overtraining is a big problem....the negative aspects of overtraining have been well documented.

its not about training 5 times a week...i think thats fine as long as you break down your bodyparts correctly...its more about giving each bodypart enough time to recover between workouts...of course larger bodyparts take longer to recover than smaller bodyparts.

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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 09:40:35 AM »

Sure, but he's talking of training the SAME bodypart 5 times a week.
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2006, 09:47:22 AM »

I'm no expert neither, but like Sarcasm said, their type of training is specific to their sport and involves low reps as well as concentraing on speed and form, not hypertrophy, so its not as taxing.
If one was to attempt hypertrophy inducing training at such high frequency, the nervous system would not handle it.
Much like gymnasts and swimmers, their muscles used for their sports-delts and pecs for swimmers, delts arms, pecs for gymnasts- development does take place after a while, but not anywhere near the rate which bbers experience, assisted or not.
I've noticed the muscles of athletes whose sport of choice focuses more on a continued resistance rather than the repetition of weightlifting seem to take a different shape. Particularly in gymnasts and wrestlers. It could of course be genetic, coincidence, or completely in my head, so *shrugs*.
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2006, 10:33:14 AM »

I'm no expert neither, but like Sarcasm said, their type of training is specific to their sport and involves low reps as well as concentraing on speed and form, not hypertrophy, so its not as taxing.
If one was to attempt hypertrophy inducing training at such high frequency, the nervous system would not handle it.
Much like gymnasts and swimmers, their muscles used for their sports-delts and pecs for swimmers, delts arms, pecs for gymnasts- development does take place after a while, but not anywhere near the rate which bbers experience, assisted or not.

^Correct.

This why Powerlifters train differently than Bodybuilders.

Different focus and goals.



DIV
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2006, 10:44:24 AM »

It largely depends on the amount of drugs you take then there is no overtraining. Using moderate weights with medium-high reps in a good and controlled form allows you to train more often and grow better. Heavy ass weights just mess with your nervous system and create a CNS overtraining syndrome.
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2006, 10:48:51 AM »

It largely depends on the amount of drugs you take then there is no overtraining. Using moderate weights with medium-high reps in a good and controlled form allows you to train more often and grow better. Heavy ass weights just mess with your nervous system and create a CNS overtraining syndrome.

Well, it depends on the goals of the individual.

Powerlifters need that CNS stimulation....whereas bodybuilders are working through a different mechanism.

Certain bodytypes do better with higher reps and others respond favorably to lower reps......

Fast twitch, slow twitch....



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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2006, 10:56:15 AM »

Overtraining is just an excuse for not training hard nowadays. Some guys actually overtrain on a 3 days a week program. How can the body give up training three times a week? Well the answer lies in your head and heart!
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2006, 11:00:07 AM »

Here's a different, scientific approach to overtraining.

Volume training is not only a waste of time and effort, but is actually counterproductive. You draw from your energy reserves during training. And it doesn't take 5 minutes after your workout to restore the energy that was used up. It takes days. And It's far more important for your body to restore it's energy reserves than it is to use energy for building new muscle tissue because those energy reserves are necessary for survival, while building a 20 inch arm is not.

Imagine each set performed is like digging a hole into your energy reserves. The more sets performed, the deeper the hole and the longer that hole takes to fill up during rest. The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. And so because it takes several days before that hole is filled up, it takes even longer to start building the mountain.

With that in mind, we're able to see just how and why HIT is as effective as it is. When volume is lowered, and energy reserves are spared, we are able to restore our energy reserves faster and enter the muscle building process sooner. Not only do we enter the muscle process sooner, but we also have a greater amount of energy which can be used to build new muscles.

Then there's the issue of intensity. The relationship of training intensity and duration exist on an inverse ratio. You can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. Honestly, I think people on high volume programs simply can't push themselves to the extent of absolute failure. I really do. If you did that, your body would force you to lower volume. And arguments like this is just for people to falsely reassure themselves that their lack of efforts in the gym is working. HA!

HIT is a workout program that was the result of one man's use of of a specific method of thought. One of logic and reasoning. Mike Mentzer was perhaps the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And that he did. It's called HIT. And I strongly suggest it.
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2006, 11:07:06 AM »


Volume training is not only a waste of time and effort, but is actually counterproductive. You draw from your energy reserves during training. And it doesn't take 5 minutes after your workout to restore the energy that was used up. It takes days. And It's far more important for your body to restore it's energy reserves than it is to use energy for building new muscle tissue because those energy reserves are necessary for survival, while building a 20 inch arm is not.

Imagine each set performed is like digging a hole into your energy reserves. The more sets performed, the deeper the hole and the longer that hole takes to fill up during rest. The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. And so because it takes several days before that hole is filled up, it takes even longer to start building the mountain.

With that in mind, we're able to see just how and why HIT is as effective as it is. When volume is lowered, and energy reserves are spared, we are able to restore our energy reserves faster and enter the muscle building process sooner. Not only do we enter the muscle process sooner, but we also have a greater amount of energy which can be used to build new muscles.

Then there's the issue of intensity. The relationship of training intensity and duration exist on an inverse ratio. You can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. Honestly, I think people on high volume programs simply can't push themselves to the extent of absolute failure. I really do. If you did that, your body would force you to lower volume. And arguments like this is just for people to falsely reassure themselves that their lack of efforts in the gym is working. HA!

HIT is a workout program that was the result of one man's use of of a specific method of thought. One of logic and reasoning. Mike Mentzer was perhaps the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And that he did. It's called HIT. And I strongly suggest it.

i totally agree with that.
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2006, 11:12:25 AM »

Here's a different, scientific approach to overtraining.

Volume training is not only a waste of time and effort, but is actually counterproductive. You draw from your energy reserves during training. And it doesn't take 5 minutes after your workout to restore the energy that was used up. It takes days. And It's far more important for your body to restore it's energy reserves than it is to use energy for building new muscle tissue because those energy reserves are necessary for survival, while building a 20 inch arm is not.

Imagine each set performed is like digging a hole into your energy reserves. The more sets performed, the deeper the hole and the longer that hole takes to fill up during rest. The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. And so because it takes several days before that hole is filled up, it takes even longer to start building the mountain.

With that in mind, we're able to see just how and why HIT is as effective as it is. When volume is lowered, and energy reserves are spared, we are able to restore our energy reserves faster and enter the muscle building process sooner. Not only do we enter the muscle process sooner, but we also have a greater amount of energy which can be used to build new muscles.

Then there's the issue of intensity. The relationship of training intensity and duration exist on an inverse ratio. You can either train hard or long, but you can't do both. Honestly, I think people on high volume programs simply can't push themselves to the extent of absolute failure. I really do. If you did that, your body would force you to lower volume. And arguments like this is just for people to falsely reassure themselves that their lack of efforts in the gym is working. HA!

HIT is a workout program that was the result of one man's use of of a specific method of thought. One of logic and reasoning. Mike Mentzer was perhaps the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He dedicated his life to making a science out of bodybuilding. And that he did. It's called HIT. And I strongly suggest it.
While i agree to a degree, I think that it is very individual what kind of exercise works best. I resond well to HIT style workouts for most of my bodyparts, but it was something that I had to learn after training with lots of volume and really figuring out how to get more and more intensity out of a set. As i learned to bring more intensity on individual sets I did less sets per workout as I just could not continue an exercise after a high intensity set. On the other hand, my workout partner responds best to volume. He's a tall guy with long limbs, so it's a lot harder for him to use enough weight with good form to be able to generate the intenisty necessary for a hit style workout. But if he uses a lower weight that allows him good form with higher reps he responds much more. I think that it's a combination of genetics and structural differences. Look at Mentzer compared to say Lou Ferrigno. I don't think that Lou, with his long frame would have been able to respond well on a HIT program. Also, in his later years I think Mentzer's ideas moved out of the realm of what could be applied in reality and were purely theoretical.
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2006, 11:14:17 AM »

Overtraining is just an excuse for not training hard nowadays. Some guys actually overtrain on a 3 days a week program. How can the body give up training three times a week? Well the answer lies in your head and heart!

more like overtraining is an exuse for some wannabe bodybuilders to spend 2 hours a day in the gym lifting light weights for 100s of reps because they dont know what intensity is and have know idea what training to failure means.
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2006, 11:17:56 AM »

more like overtraining is an exuse for some wannabe bodybuilders to spend 2 hours a day in the gym lifting light weights for 100s of reps because they dont know what intensity is and have know idea what training to failure means.

True their are lots of guys that on volume training look like nothing. Just like on HIT training. Same guys that come in day in day out looking the same. A real bodybuilder will succeed
ed with and training protocol and would be wise to experiment with all varieties.
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2006, 11:27:02 AM »

True their are lots of guys that on volume training look like nothing. Just like on HIT training. Same guys that come in day in day out looking the same. A real bodybuilder will succeed
ed with and training protocol and would be wise to experiment with all varieties.
Werd
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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2006, 11:27:37 AM »

Their are so many ratios to this equation, basically it comes down to knowing your body. u have to put in diet, if u dont have enough fuel (carbs&fats,etc) u will burn out earlier and recover slower. Then theirs the intensity and duration aspect. If your trying to build muscle whats the point of training to failure every set for an hour or more, your only taxing your own body and immune system. Your body's not going to be able to build rock hard muscle if its having a hard enough time  simply recovering. Drugs are a huge aspect as well, u can throw all this out the window if your juicing through the gills. Its all about balance theirs some days where i simply just go through the motions of a work out because i know if i were to go balls to the wall it would actually do more harm to my goals than help. figure out what works for you not some dude on the internet that says "this is scientifically proven" their are way to many factors that play into building muscle and i can tell you now none of us are the exact same infact far from it, AGE,RACE(genetics), diet,rest,living style, metabolism. i believe in overtraining because i know how it feels and its not healthy.
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