ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!

[Jr. Yates]

But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.

exactly.

[pumpster]

But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.

That's an extremely defensive position. No one's gotten more praise than Schwarzenegger. Understand that the no. 1 Weider guy was immediately going to "accomplish more" in Weider's commercial BB world, just as Pumping Iron the movie embraced a Weider perspective that varied from the more balanced book presentation. There wasn't room for more than one star.

Disappointing the paucity of independant thought on getbig; most here have been brainwashed by years of Weider mags and Pumping Iron reruns, weren't there to see more balanced perspectives & refuse to wide the perspectives.

[Cap]

That's an extremely defensive position. Understand that the no. 1 Weider guy was immediately going to "accomplish more" in Weider's BB world, just as Pumping Iron the movie embraced a Weider perspective that varied from the more accurate book presentation. There wasn't room for more than one star.

Disappointing the paucity of independant thought on getbig; most here have been brainwashed by years of Weider mags and Pumping Iron reruns, weren't there to see more balanced perspectives & refuse to wide the perspectives.

But then despite all the wins by Yates, Haney and Coleman that Arnold will forever be the most reknowned BBer?  Fans follow the sport and make up thier own minds IMO.

[pumpster]

But then despite all the wins by Yates, Haney and Coleman that Arnold will forever be the most reknowned BBer?  Fans follow the sport and make up thier own minds IMO.

Being renowned and being one of the top BBs ever are two different things that are confused. Years of Weider mags including yet another Schwarzenegger cover tend to distort realities, for some.

[natural al]

But when the man accomplished more than Oliva and Viator and Mentzer, his methods should be deserving of some praise and not just be sluffed aside as a Weider lap dog.

I would never say arnolds methods don't have merrit....what I say is if you train like him today and that's all you do you limit yourself, there's always new stuff to try, some works some does not but don't be close minded especially if your a natural guy cause all the rules change once you decide to train without enhancements.

[Bluto]

you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?

[pumpster]

you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?

Anyone with time can expend the effort to try to explain something to this troll, who will then dismiss it inside of 5 minutes without ever trying it.

Can anyone confirm that this dweeb has ever worked out?

[natural al]

you both keep saying there's new things to try, why not tell us a little bit of these new things that you discovered and these new methods that didnt exist before?

there's literally tons of stuff to try.  Will it all work?  Nope but it all has merit.  Pre-exhaust, double pre exhaust, super slow negatives, negative only training, rest pause training....

I've done tons of things over the last 10 years, some for extended periods of time some for only a few weeks some I only did a couple of times.  I did tons of reading while I was in school.

I experimented with traditional rest pause methods as described by metzer but I found that it was extremely taxing on the CNS and the joints in general.  I got stronger but I found that some movements just didn't work using this method, it's catered more towards machine training-which I dont' have a problem with today but did at the time.

what do you want to know about specifically?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Anyone with time can expend the effort to try to explain something to this troll, who will then dismiss it inside of 5 minutes without ever trying it.

Can anyone confirm that this dweeb has ever worked out?

pumpster is backed into a corner and has no way out and we've confirmed you ' work-out ' lmfao if thats what you wanna call it ! then again you can bench 410 power rods pounds for 15 full consectutive reps lol

[Bluto]

there's literally tons of stuff to try.  Will it all work?  Nope but it all has merit.  Pre-exhaust, double pre exhaust, super slow negatives, negative only training, rest pause training....

I've done tons of things over the last 10 years, some for extended periods of time some for only a few weeks some I only did a couple of times.  I did tons of reading while I was in school.

I experimented with traditional rest pause methods as described by metzer but I found that it was extremely taxing on the CNS and the joints in general.  I got stronger but I found that some movements just didn't work using this method, it's catered more towards machine training-which I dont' have a problem with today but did at the time.

what do you want to know about specifically?

So why do you experience so much? Unhappy with your progress? I can't think of a reason why I would start doing super slow negative or any of that stuff.

[natural al]

So why do you experience so much? Unhappy with your progress? I can't think of a reason why I would start doing super slow negative or any of that stuff.

when I went back to school about 8 years ago I decided I wasn't gonna put training first but what I did do was read about everything I could get my hands on and try tons of different stuff.  So I'd go to the gym when I could and try things and record my initial thoughts and if I stuck with it I monitored my progress on that specific program for howeveer long I used it.  I tried to figure out what allowed me to recover the fastest and what made sense and what didn't. 

I did some negative only training for a short period of time, I still put alot of emphasis on the negative portion of the movement but it's more centered around controlling the movement...basically if I want to stop the nagative at any point I can.  I also played around last year with a technique that metzer used...I dont' remember what it was called but you stop the weight 3 times during the negative phase of the movement...I called them triple stops but I dont' remember what he called them.  This really upped the intesity and stopped any momentum from coming into play at any point in the movement but since I was training using DC's methods I didn't feel that it fit that protocol well cause my weights in some movements were stagnating.

[natural al]

I did max-ot for awhile and thought it was really good.  A very well thought out program with lots of benefit to the average trainer.  I didn't modify a thing, did it almost to the letter.  Very heavy compound movements following thier descriptions of the execution of each movement.  I had no problem for a few months then my right arm began to hurt in a way that I have not felt since, my bicep tendon was killing me, to the point where I couldn't straighten out my arm.  I got a brace and did alot of movements using that but no direct work for my bi's for a few months.  I eventually worked through it but that really made me think about the program, I started getting to the point where I was moving some really heavy ass weights for 4-8 reps but I started having more and more problems with my joints..shoulders, knees...

I guess if I was gonna use this type of training again I'd modify a few things and try cycling in and out a little more...kinda like blasting and cruising in DC. 

[Bluto]

or you could stop 4-8 reps alltogether.

[natural al]

or you could stop 4-8 reps alltogether.

well...that's kinda what the whole routine is based around so that would kinda defeat the purpose of doing "max-ot" wouldn't it?

[Bluto]

well...that's kinda what the whole routine is based around so that would kinda defeat the purpose of doing "max-ot" wouldn't it?

yup
 

[natural al]

yup
 

bluto, I'm a little disapointed in you.  Seems you only came into this thread to be a troll and argue, I thought the discussion was fine...I don't really get what your motives are.  I wasn't being a dick to anybody, I never put down arnolds way of training, I never said a bad word to anybody.  If you want to be a dick that's fine but I've been pretty nice so far....if you are trying to be a smart ass it ain't working, you're just kinda looking ignorant at this point.

[Bluto]

bluto, I'm a little disapointed in you.  Seems you only came into this thread to be a troll and argue, I thought the discussion was fine...I don't really get what your motives are.  I wasn't being a dick to anybody, I never put down arnolds way of training, I never said a bad word to anybody.  If you want to be a dick that's fine but I've been pretty nice so far....if you are trying to be a smart ass it ain't working, you're just kinda looking ignorant at this point.

or maybe im having different opinions that dont go along with yours and pumpsters.

if you injured yourself doing 4-6 reps then dont do 4-6 reps.

that's a pretty good advice.

arnold, serge, haney, coleman etc did fine without doing 4-6 reps.

[natural al]

or maybe im having different opinions that dont go along with yours and pumpsters.

if you injured yourself doing 4-6 reps then dont do 4-6 reps.

that's a pretty good advice.

arnold, serge, haney, coleman etc did fine without doing 4-6 reps.

seems like no matter what anybody says you come back with the same answer time and time again.  Bottom line is I think max-ot is a very good and well thought out routine, it's far and away from what I do right now but I still think it's a good routine and I don't see the problem with looking at it and trying it out.  Like I said it might not have been the rep range that caused me problems it could have been something simple that I was doing that I didn't realize, maybe I needed to warm up a little better or maybe I could have cycled my intesity a little better.  I'm not perfect, coulda been alot of things.

if you wanna do volume more power to ya, I'm not putting down volume at all, I was just having fun with talking about different concepts and my experiences with them and trying to give a little advice.

what types of training have you tried?  Have you even considered any other options or are you just locked into volume for the sake of volume?

[Bluto]

im leaning towards that fewer reps and sets can be beneficial for strength and for mass you need more volume

yeah buddy

[natural al]

im leaning towards that fewer reps and sets can be beneficial for strength and for mass you need more volume

yeah buddy

see I dont' have a problem with that.  I think you got me wrong.  I dont' think volume training is a waste, it like anything has it's merit.  For along time everybody I knew did medium wieght, medieum reps and pretty high volume, it wasn't until I started looking into and trying different things did I stop thinking volume was the be all end all in training. 

I would say this if I was gonna do any type of volume training....first, I'd stick with a push pull set up-back, bi's and forearms on one day, legs on another and chest, shoulders and tri's-second I'd do about 10-16 sets depending on the size of the bodypart and third, I'd really, really monitor my recovery, first sign of overtraining I'd cut back a little. 

I don't believe a persons recovery ability changes very dramatically, in other words I don't think you can build it up so the stronger you get or the more work you do the closer you have to watch things.

[TheEgoCrusher]

Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT?  At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED?  The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy.  Period.

[SteelePegasus]

Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT?  At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED?  The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy.  Period.

to some extent I agree, I don't think that over training should even be entering his mind.

LOL, The guys does 10 hard reps and worries about over training....oh my god, what would happen if he did 15 reps?

Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.

[natural al]

Once again, WHY would you even THINK about risking UNDER-TRAINING by using HIT?  At the end of the day, would you have less respect for yourself if you'd UNDER-TRAINED or OVER-TRAINED?  The "over-training" crutch the HIT people use is a BULLSHIT excuse for being lazy.  Period.

first of all if you know what your doing and you're using the proper techniques you can work very hard while utilizing low volume.  Do I think the whole 1 set per bodypart done in conventional fashion will work?  Nope, that's not really what HIT in it's purest sense is all about and most things that have evolved from HIT don't really take that stance.

When you say HIT what is your definition? 

[natural al]

to some extent I agree, I don't think that over training should even be entering his mind.

LOL, The guys does 10 hard reps and worries about over training....oh my god, what would happen if he did 15 reps?

Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.

if your talking about me, for the most part when I train I don't worry about overtraining, I know what I'm capable of and I would never do one set of 10 reps and call it a day...and yes I do some crazy shit when I train but with the things I have going on in life I have to train on my lunch hour these days so I work as hard as humanly possible in the hour I have.  I've learned what works for me and I am as efficiant as hell in the gym.

[TheEgoCrusher]

Unless someone is doing some crazy way out shit I don't believe in that over training is possible.

Thank GOD someone here has some SENSE.

Over-training is NOT POSSIBLE for 95% of the people who EVER enter into the realm of bodybuilding.  Why?  Because they don't combine INTENSITY with VOLUME.  Dumbasses on here who do HIT (a couple "warm-up" sets followed by one to failure...no more than an hour per workout..etc.) are just flat out LAZY. 

I ask ALL of you HIT idiots this, again:

WHY would you take ANY ANGLE IN LIFE that consists of you taking the RISK of accomplishing MORE by doing LESS rather than pushing your body to the max and encompassing VOLUME in your workouts?  You do realize that any-and-everyone that you talk to about your "HIT-training" knows that you are just lazy, correct?