DISGUSTED: Bodybuilding Guru?

[The True Adonis]

Your posts were spot on and there is a reason they were not debated...they are undeniable facts as we currently understand the body. The only reply he can give is "I don't agree".

The problem even with Adonis' case study or any study involving the weight loss of an individual is that it's a one time deal and you don't get a do-over. What I mean is let's say TA's subject comes in ripped eventually...which I believe he actually will if he continues. How would we know what he would have looked like had he followed a more conventional diet? We can't know; only theorize. Similarly if someone uses a conventional diet there's no telling what they would have looked like eating in a caloric deficit of only donuts.

So how do you prove the most efficient method of fat loss/muscle sparing? You can't use two different people since their metabolisms will differ. You possibly could use the same person using a TA diet during one period and a convential diet on another but even then how do you keep a control on other factors such as activity level or a change in their own metabolism? You can't in the practical world.

Therefore, I believe the only thing that TA's case study may prove is you can get lean eating a non traditional diet. What it will fail to prove because it's nearly impossible to prove is if it is better than a traditional diet and that he retained as much or more muscle than if he dieted traditionally.

I`ve done both.

You can see my log on www.musclemayhem.com

[The True Adonis]

Thanks. 
I think everyone could agree that WEIGHT loss is inevitable when less calories are taken in than are being burned.  That should be obvious.  But, that should be the extent at which that tool is marketed. 
Optimizing body fat loss, while simultaneously minimizing muscle mass loss requires more planning than that. 

What is important is basic understanding of human physiology and nutrition.  The better you understand the processes that are going on when nutrients are utilized by the body, the better you can potentially be at maximizing fat loss, while minimizing muscle loss.

Don`t be stubborn.

Go look at my posts at MD in the Natural section.
There is way more to this than you even know.

[troponin]

Isn't there some insulin in the body constantly? A basal level? So if you have a whey shake before cardio, which stimulates insulin release and which has been shown not to inhibit fat burning how is that possible... please explain what you mean by "in the presence of insulin", is it a certain level it has to reah or what?

Yes, whey protein will raise insulin. 
The "presence of insulin" isn't omnipotent and all encompassing, when insulin is present, it will exert its actions on Acetyl CoA.  The more insulin, the larger the scale of its actions. 

So, there isn't a specific level, but the lower the level of insulin, the less ACC2 will be stimulated, and the lower the blunting of fatty acid oxidation in the mitochondria will be. 

it's like 4am traffic, compared to rush hour.   At 4am, there is still some cars, but if the cops aren't looking, you have a pretty good shot of seeing what your new car "can do." 
At rush hour, you're stuck going 20mph....switching lanes....after which the lane you were in begins moving, etc., etc.

[Stavios]

holly shit my head hurts

[Mr. Intenseone]

I hope your not just talking about the top two abs mr intenseone..Cause some dudes can show those with upwards of  25% which is pretty fucking fat..

No, all my abs. If I compete, I'll either be at the low end of the heavy wt class (205 or so) or right at the top of the Lt hvy (198 1/4)!

[Van_Bilderass]

Yes, whey protein will raise insulin. 
The "presence of insulin" isn't omnipotent and all encompassing, when insulin is present, it will exert its actions on Acetyl CoA.  The more insulin, the larger the scale of its actions. 

So, there isn't a specific level, but the lower the level of insulin, the less ACC2 will be stimulated, and the lower the blunting of fatty acid oxidation in the mitochondria will be. 

it's like 4am traffic, compared to rush hour.   At 4am, there is still some cars, but if the cops aren't looking, you have a pretty good shot of seeing what your new car "can do." 
At rush hour, you're stuck going 20mph....switching lanes....after which the lane you were in begins moving, etc., etc.

Ok, thanks. Still confused though about the "impossible in the presence of insulin" LOL. Maybe you are talking on a cell by cell basis? I'll try to figure it out LOL

[The True Adonis]

Ok, thanks. Still confused though about the "impossible in the presence of insulin" LOL. Maybe you are talking on a cell by cell basis? I'll try to figure it out LOL

I`m still trying to figure it out.

[Van_Bilderass]

I`m still trying to figure it out.

Hmm... maybe he is talking about lipolysis when he says "fat burning"? I know lipolysis is inhibited by insulin but doesn't the body use a certain percentage of fatty acids for energy at all times regardless of insulin conc.? As I understand it fat is constantly released and reabsorbed into cells, and even if lipolysis is inhibited, burning off the circulating fats would ultimately make you lose fat (I mean especially in a hypocaloric state)? I have seen some state that lipolysis is not THAT important of a fat loss pathway. LOL, ahh, it doesn't matter ultimately anyway.

[beatmaster]

 
 

huh

[DOGGCRAPP]

The thing with posts like this, is they end up becoming entirely self serving.  I doubt anyone has actually read my posts on how insulin actually blunts fat loss......and to be honest, I probably wouldn't have read them either.  So, things like this become a debate on nothing.  
After a well designed post defining exactly how a calorie is not a calorie, all Adonis has to say is "I disagree," even when the point is not debatable.  

Actually I have and couldnt agree more with every single thing youve said on this thread so far already. Where you are 100% wrong though is that your arguing with someone whose whole schtick is to say outrageous crazy things and go against the grain with everything (all with the hopes of publicizing/promoting himself).

The problem is your basically stating a fact such as "the human body needs H20 to survive" and his reply is "I disagree"

Maybe thats the new internet....if you say "you really dont need the heart as an organ" enough times over and over....some people will believe it.

You have better things to do Trop........this is truly a waste of your time.

[The True Adonis]

Actually I have and couldnt agree more with every single thing youve said on this thread so far already. Where you are 100% wrong though is that your arguing with someone whose whole schtick is to say outrageous crazy things and go against the grain with everything (all with the hopes of publicizing/promoting himself).

The problem is your basically stating a fact such as "the human body needs H20 to survive" and his reply is "I disagree"

Maybe thats the new internet....if you say "you really dont need the heart as an organ" enough times over and over....some people will believe it.

You have better things to do Trop........this is truly a waste of your time.

I agree it is a waste of time to distort Science and cite snippets of unproven theoretical nonsense that you would need a decoder ring from Kellogg`s in order to  decipher the point and question.  Troponin should know better than that.
It has been a waste of time for all of us.

[The True Adonis]

A joule is a joule.

Does that make it easier.


hahahaha

[UK Gold]

'Adonos', some of us arn't members of MD, so post 'Chaseinaters' new pics.

[Fletch]

wow adonis, do you come up with your "scientific" theories while in your jammies and your mommy cuts the crust off your pbj sandwich?

I dont listen to any theories from anybody who lives with mom and dad. Go get a life and a degree and come tell us something then.
You aint the revolution fool. Theres nothing new under the sun. Go work on your "gravity suit". Fool

[Cleanest Natural]

wow adonis, do you come up with your "scientific" theories while in your jammies and your mommy cuts the crust off your pbj sandwich?

I dont listen to any theories from anybody who lives with mom and dad. Go get a life and a degree and come tell us something then.
You aint the revolution fool. Theres nothing new under the sun. Go work on your "gravity suit". Fool

well put.I second that.

[natural al]

No such thing as an Ectomorph.

c'mon now.  what proof could you posssibly have to back that statement up?  It's been accepted for years, there are different bone structure's different muscle compositions...

[GoneAway]

c'mon now.  what proof could you posssibly have to back that statement up?  It's been accepted for years, there are different bone structure's different muscle compositions...

I'm a true ectomorph, so I believe there is such a thing as that bodytype. That's not to say one can't change their appearance to seem like another type.

[natural al]

I'm a true ectomorph, so I believe there is such a thing as that bodytype. That's not to say one can't change their appearance to seem like another type.

If I remember right there are bone structure issues, a ecto tends to have a rather long thorax and lighter bone structure.  I dont' know how much you could do naturally to put on alot of muscle.  Like I said earlier I'm not a dieting expert but previous experience with ecto's leads me to believe that most guys who are ecto's think they are eating alot but in reality are under eating and very frustrated that they can't put on weight.  I used to work with a guy that was a classic ecto.  One day he comes into work with 2 huge jugs of creatine and tells me he's gonna use them to start putting on weight.  I said well, you kinda have to have muscle 1st or your wasting your time but he didn't listen.  At lunch that day look over and he's eating a whopping ham and cheese sandwich and having a glass of milk and that's all he ate all day buthe was gonna do at least 3 glasses of creatine that day

[SteelePegasus]

I'll stay here.  You've given no truthful answer yet, so I feel no need to post a question.

You can stay here and tell my how you can control the enzymatic reactions to nutrient ingestion if you want though.

bump

[troponin]

Ok, thanks. Still confused though about the "impossible in the presence of insulin" LOL. Maybe you are talking on a cell by cell basis? I'll try to figure it out LOL

Where insulin is present, it will exert its effects on ACC2, which will blunt the transfer of fatty acids to the mitochondria, resulting in fatty acids not used for energy.  The larger amount of insulin that is present, the larger amount of mitochondria will be effected. 

You have more than one mitochondria in your body....and you have more than one insulin receptor.  The scale of the fatty acid blunting will be proportional to the scale of insulin present.  The more amount of insulin, the more amount of ACC2.  The less insulin, the less ACC2. 

[SteelePegasus]

c'mon now.  what proof could you posssibly have to back that statement up?  It's been accepted for years, there are different bone structure's different muscle compositions...

as dogcrapp pointed out adonis just goes against the grain for the sakes of making a scene

men and women who have spent more years in school studying this topic than he has been alive. And his response to their information is "I Disagree"

he has no formal education on these matters yet he quotes scientific works from google.

Trop has explained why a calorie is not a calorie and what was adonis's response.."I disgaree"

this guy is piece of work.

[Moen]

LOL

I was just thinking the other day, this is a thread where I can learn something, ON GETBIG !

Was to be expected it would end up in a useless debate which most of us have no interest nor use in whatsoever 

[SteelePegasus]

Adonis, just to clear up the record.

1. What, when and where is your formal training in these matters? school and degree

fine, no degree..we well then
2. How many years of practical application have you had on these matters on other people?

0 + 0 = 0

[SteelePegasus]

LOL

I was just thinking the other day, this is a thread where I can learn something, ON GETBIG !

Was to be expected it would end up in a useless debate which most of us have no interest nor use in whatsoever 

fucker..eat 5 small/moderate meals per day (minimize carbs intake), lift heavy and mix in cardio (but don't over do it)

now get lost.

[Palpatine Q]

Actually I have and couldnt agree more with every single thing youve said on this thread so far already. Where you are 100% wrong though is that your arguing with someone whose whole schtick is to say outrageous crazy things and go against the grain with everything (all with the hopes of publicizing/promoting himself).

The problem is your basically stating a fact such as "the human body needs H20 to survive" and his reply is "I disagree"

Maybe thats the new internet....if you say "you really dont need the heart as an organ" enough times over and over....some people will believe it.

You have better things to do Trop........this is truly a waste of your time.

Completely off topic but I'm bored with my routine and I'm gonna DC it for a while, dead of winter seems like a good time. Anybody got any links to DC's stuff. i lost mine.