Author Topic: They really never learn  (Read 6111 times)

ribonucleic

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They really never learn
« on: February 06, 2007, 12:33:54 PM »
Video of U.S. friendly fire unleashes storm in UK

LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. and British officials denied trying to bury details of a "friendly fire" incident on Tuesday when a cockpit video was leaked in which U.S. pilots are heard weeping after mistakenly killing a British soldier in Iraq.

A British coroner's inquest into the death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull has reignited questions over whether the allies did enough to shield troops from friendly fire -- and whether both countries wanted to keep the details hidden.

"I'm going to be sick," one pilot in an A-10 attack jet can be heard saying when he realizes he has opened fire on a friendly convoy. "We're in jail, dude."

Another pilot is later heard weeping: "I'm dead."

Hull was killed when his convoy of light British tanks was strafed by American A-10 attack jets during the second week of the 2003 invasion that toppled
Saddam Hussein.

Coroner Andrew Walker suspended his probe last week after he learned that there was a cockpit video which he had not been allowed to use or to show the family.

Washington had given the video to British authorities but refused to allow it to be shown to the coroner, saying it might contain security secrets. The British government denied hiding it but said it could not release it without U.S. permission.

After the video was shown all day on UK television, a U.S. defense official said it could now form part of the inquest.

"We have authorized the UK Ministry of Defense to display the full video in camera to the coroner and the family in the presence of a Ministry of Defense authority," a
Pentagon official said on condition of anonymity.

Washington said its own investigation exonerated the pilots.

"The investigators determined that the pilots followed the procedures and processes for engaging targets," Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

But U.S. officials have refused British requests to send the pilots to travel to Britain to testify in the inquest.

Hull's widow said she was glad the video was now public.

"I would have preferred to hear the evidence from the U.S. pilots themselves. However, they cannot be compelled to come and they have not come voluntarily. The video is therefore vital evidence and must be shown," Susan Hull said in a statement.

"After years of being told that it did not exist or was secret I feel that it was right not to give up hope."

Friendly fire has been a burning issue for both countries since the first
Gulf War in 1991, when nine British servicemen were killed in a mistaken attack by U.S. aircraft.

Precautions have since been taken -- orange panels were fitted to allied vehicles to alert pilots during the 2003 invasion. The pilots on the tape can be heard concluding the panels were "orange rocket launchers" before opening fire.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said reports of the transcripts of the incident showed a "clear expression of remorse" from those involved.

"These people immediately understood that this just was a terrible, terrible mistake and that they felt an immediate remorse for what happened," McCormack told reporters.

(Additional reporting by Sophie Walker in Jerusalem, Kate Kelland in London and Andrew Gray and Sue Pleming in Washington)

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 01:10:55 PM »
Friendly fire is a unfortunate fact of war.

No matter how many mechanisms are in place it will always happen.

A war like this shuold have never happened in the first place anyway.

Unfortunate.


BTW,  Rib,  just to get an idea of where you stand on issues simlar to these did you support a the war in afghanistan after 9/11?

ribonucleic

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 01:23:00 PM »
Friendly fire is a unfortunate fact of war.

No matter how many mechanisms are in place it will always happen.

A war like this shuold have never happened in the first place anyway.

Unfortunate.


BTW,  Rib,  just to get an idea of where you stand on issues simlar to these did you support a the war in afghanistan after 9/11?

The "never learn" part was referring to the cover-up - not the friendly fire. You'd think after the Pat Tillman fiasco blew up in their faces... ah, who am I kidding? Cover-ups are intrinsic to their institutional culture.

I was reflexively skeptical about Afghanistan. But I figured if it put the Taliban out of business and nabbed bin Laden [I accepted the standard line on 9/11 back then], it might actually be the lesser of two evils.

Now at this late date in history, I feel justified in considering any deployment of US troops overseas as guilty until proven innocent.

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 01:25:31 PM »
oh ok,

You know that cover up actually had value......  imagine if it was reported when it happened.

24KT

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 01:27:42 PM »
God forbid people actually hear the truth.  ::)
w

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 01:29:50 PM »
If all poeple knew the truth of war, there would never be any wars.

240 is Back

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 01:39:16 PM »
If all poeple knew the truth of war, there would never be any wars.

yeah.  That'd be terrible.

Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 01:40:43 PM »
yeah.  That'd be terrible.

Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.

did you just insult me?   ;D  ???


I figure i should give you the benefit of the doubt before jump to conclusions and unload a little.

Dos Equis

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 01:42:55 PM »
LOL

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 01:43:35 PM »
did you just insult me?   ;D  ???

You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war.  It's incredibly clear.  If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.

Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.

Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value.  

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 01:44:19 PM »
Not an insult at all - you said something very insightful! 

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 01:53:38 PM »
You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war.  It's incredibly clear.  If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.

Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.

Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value. 

Ok,  i thought the part of:

Quote
ahd have no clue.

was me telling i had no clue.

BTW:


I firmly believe what you wrote about the horrors of war.

Oddly enough, without actually being in a war, i think the first 30 mintues of "Saving Private Ryan" delivers that message very well.

240 is Back

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 01:57:23 PM »
no - i meant that it sounded like you casually wrote that comment.  when i read it, it summarized precisely what the internet is doing - spreading the horrors of war reality.

good stuff.

ieffinhatecardio

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 01:58:14 PM »
You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war.  It's incredibly clear.  If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.

Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.

Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value. 

I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 02:00:03 PM »
I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.

I don't think, and i'm speaking from a complete lack of experience, that there is any way to relate the true horror of war without being in one.

Saving Private Ryan did a good job however.

240 is Back

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2007, 02:05:10 PM »
I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.

For every 30 seconds of file footage of missiles launching, they should show 30 seconds of what happens when they land.  Even if only 30 seconds a night, Americans had to think about that, war support might not be there.  I remember how clear and vivid the coverage was of Shock and Awe.  The next day though, they didn't cover the hospitals that well.

ieffinhatecardio

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2007, 02:06:17 PM »
I don't think, and i'm speaking from a complete lack of experience, that there is any way to relate the true horror of war without being in one.

Saving Private Ryan did a good job however.

I agree it would be nearly impossible to convey the horror without actually being in the middle of it because the viewers life isn't on the line and because the sites and smells and sounds are distant and sheltered via the TV. Also because any fatalities or casualties aren't people the viewers would know or have any relationship to.

I agree, Saving Private Ryan was excellent and incredibly moving. It took me a few days to get over it.

ieffinhatecardio

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2007, 02:10:51 PM »
For every 30 seconds of file footage of missiles launching, they should show 30 seconds of what happens when they land.  Even if only 30 seconds a night, Americans had to think about that, war support might not be there.  I remember how clear and vivid the coverage was of Shock and Awe.  The next day though, they didn't cover the hospitals that well.

This is true but do you think showing the true savagery of war to the general public would serve any real purpose? There are times when War is inevitable and needed. I'm not saying this war is don't get me wrong but I believe we were justified in going into Afghanistan.

Would it have served any purpose for us to see pictures of blown apart bodies and leveled buildings and smoking buildings with body parts and blood staining the rubble?

I actually think it would be counterproductive.

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 02:13:17 PM »
if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.

Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?

ieffinhatecardio

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2007, 02:20:43 PM »
if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.

Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?

How do you know that knowledge wouldn't desensitize children to the violence and gore? I see it with my nephews, the things they see don't shock them anymore.

My opinion is that War was the point in Iraq, diplomacy wasn't. I'm sure there are people that will argue that we exhausted all diplomatic avenues but who really knows? In essence it's all conjecture at this point unless we have the testimony of someone that was in the inner circle during that period.

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 02:21:35 PM »
How do you know that knowledge wouldn't desensitize children to the violence and gore? I see it with my nephews, the things they see don't shock them anymore.

My opinion is that War was the point in Iraq, diplomacy wasn't. I'm sure there are people that will argue that we exhausted all diplomatic avenues but who really knows? In essence it's all conjecture at this point unless we have the testimony of someone that was in the inner circle during that period.

Sadaadm surrendered with 24 hours on the clock, on that 48-hour deadline.  We responded by dropping  aJDAM into that building.  Remember that one shot before the shock/awe started? ;)

ieffinhatecardio

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 02:25:04 PM »
Sadaadm surrendered with 24 hours on the clock, on that 48-hour deadline.  We responded by dropping  aJDAM into that building.  Remember that one shot before the shock/awe started? ;)

Yes, I remember that he surrendered before the deadline. As I said, I think War was the point or perhaps Military Action is a better way to word it. Military Action was the point.

militarymuscle69

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 03:10:25 PM »
yeah.  That'd be terrible.

Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.

you really think if there had never been any wars the world would be better off? no WWI, WWII, Korea, Civil etc...
gotta love life

militarymuscle69

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 03:12:54 PM »
if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.

Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?

Their second action would be learning the muslim religion
gotta love life

OzmO

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Re: They really never learn
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2007, 03:18:45 PM »
you really think if there had never been any wars the world would be better off? no WWI, WWII, Korea, Civil etc...

I actually do.  The abillity for a world not to have wars would also come with the ability not to allow evil dictators to come into power. 

How many wars have been started based on fear or war?