I'm sure it's a coincidence

[OzmO]

A corporation can pump money into the economy by means other then taxes. More profits by big companies = higher spending and overall demand in the economy.

As these companies grow they hire more employees which means more tax revenue........... 


Point is, the US government benefits greatly when our economic interests  are taken care of.


...........not that there is any benefit for our comanies like Haliburton, Exxon etc...   in Iraq.

[Dos Equis]

As these companies grow they hire more employees which means more tax revenue........... 


Point is, the US government benefits greatly when our economic interests  are taken care of.


...........not that there is any benefit for our comanies like Haliburton, Exxon etc...   in Iraq.

Of course our government benefits when the tax revenue increases (by, for instance, increased revenue from additional people in the workforce), but there is a long and illogical leap from that end result to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

One other note:  the majority of the income,  earned by workers in Iraq is tax-free.  Much of the military income is tax-free too.   

[OzmO]

Of course our government benefits when the tax revenue increases (by, for instance, increased revenue from additional people in the workforce), but there is a long and illogical leap from that end result to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

One other note:  the majority of the income,  earned by workers in Iraq is tax-free.  Much of the military income is tax-free too.   

I would say then....who puts these people in power?  who helps finance their campaigns who lobbies, etc....  These companies help get people elected that will look after their interests.

And yes it's all tax free in iraq until they try and bring it into the USA.

[Dos Equis]

I would say then....who puts these people in power?  who helps finance their campaigns who lobbies, etc....  These companies help get people elected that will look after their interests.

And yes it's all tax free in iraq until they try and bring it into the USA.

I agree that money controls elections and drives policy.  Money gets you a seat at the table.  I'm sure some policy decisions are made by what the Administration AND individual members of Congress believe is in the best interest of their large donors.  Still, there is a huge leap from there to our two ongoing wars. 

[OzmO]

I agree that money controls elections and drives policy.  Money gets you a seat at the table.  I'm sure some policy decisions are made by what the Administration AND individual members of Congress believe is in the best interest of their large donors.  Still, there is a huge leap from there to our two ongoing wars. 

I've always maintain teh benefits of going into Iraq weren't direct.   Our companies are benefiting for it and inturn so is our govenrment.  I don't believe it's the entire reason, but in my gut i believe 9/11 and WMD's were used as the excuse to go invade iraq and the benefits from it economically for our country as well as the strategic benefits are the real reasons.

[Dos Equis]

I've always maintain teh benefits of going into Iraq weren't direct.   Our companies are benefiting for it and inturn so is our govenrment.  I don't believe it's the entire reason, but in my gut i believe 9/11 and WMD's were used as the excuse to go invade iraq and the benefits from it economically for our country as well as the strategic benefits are the real reasons.

I don't know man.  If we did go into Iraq to benefit the U.S. economy, we failed pretty miserably.  And I find it hard to believe they couldn't do some kind of financial analysis that would show the war would cost a great deal of money before it started.  Whatever increased profits the Halliburton shareholders made off the war is overshadowed by the billions this war has cost us. 

[OzmO]

I don't know man.  If we did go into Iraq to benefit the U.S. economy, we failed pretty miserably.  And I find it hard to believe they couldn't do some kind of financial analysis that would show the war would cost a great deal of money before it started.  Whatever increased profits the Halliburton shareholders made off the war is overshadowed by the billions this war has cost us. 

I think it isn't turning out the way they thought it would.  Imagine however if the people welcomed us with open arms and installed a democratic government with little or no insurgency?

It would have been great for everyone.

[Dos Equis]

I think it isn't turning out the way they thought it would.  Imagine however if the people welcomed us with open arms and installed a democratic government with little or no insurgency?

It would have been great for everyone.

True.  Good point.  I doubt they envisioned a morass and guerilla warfare. 

[a_joker10]

True.  Good point.  I doubt they envisioned a morass and guerilla warfare. 

Few people envisioned that Iraq would turn out like it has.

After Saddam very few people thought that Al Sadr and Iran would move so quickly to bring the Shia together.
Also most people thought that the government of Iraq would have moved quicker to end the death squads and the internal rivalries of all the groups.

Of course this overlooked on how Eastern Europe divided after Communism fell. Yugoslavia is an example. Another example is Czechoslovakia.

[tu_holmes]

I think it isn't turning out the way they thought it would.  Imagine however if the people welcomed us with open arms and installed a democratic government with little or no insurgency?

It would have been great for everyone.

It's turning out EXACTLY like Colon Powell, the former Secretary of State, and person most revered in the United States on Foreign Policy said it would turn out...

It's not like Bush and his local cohorts said it would be, but it's JUST like the guy who was the most intelligent member of the Bush Cabinet in 2002 said it would be.

We can't forget that the real brains in that organization said it was BAD.

[OzmO]

It's turning out EXACTLY like Colon Powell, the former Secretary of State, and person most revered in the United States on Foreign Policy said it would turn out...

It's not like Bush and his local cohorts said it would be, but it's JUST like the guy who was the most intelligent member of the Bush Cabinet in 2002 said it would be.

We can't forget that the real brains in that organization said it was BAD.

I agree.

[a_joker10]

I would like to see exxon's profits during the war, vs. in times of peace.  anyone have that laid out from 90 to 2007 handy?

Oil was higher in both 1974 and 1979 than it is now.

Usage in the 80's was low because of the recession in the early 80's, a lower national speed limit and fuel efficiency standards that were tougher. That meant lower oil prices.

By the way the difference in the amount Exxon makes and the government makes is based on profit vs tax revenue at the pump. Not from development. Also these oil companies are multinational and as usage increases so does profits, because oi production has a base level before a development breaks even and after that it is all profit. That is why oil fields will be taken in and out of development.

The government in the US is using the oil development profit it is making from oil development in the US to help rebuild and increase the Strategic Reserve. http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/reserves/

[a_joker10]

It's turning out EXACTLY like Colon Powell, the former Secretary of State, and person most revered in the United States on Foreign Policy said it would turn out...

It's not like Bush and his local cohorts said it would be, but it's JUST like the guy who was the most intelligent member of the Bush Cabinet in 2002 said it would be.

We can't forget that the real brains in that organization said it was BAD.

Powell didn't give out any warnings about insurgent involvement until 2005 or that is what he said in his Biography.
Another book with some interesting commentary
http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/10/timeline_of_den.php

[BRUCE]

Thanks for the posts, Joker.  Has anyone else stopped to consider the positive effects large private enterprise has for the standard of living in a country's economy?  This is basic economics; something that should not be lost on the entrepreneurial minds of this board.

[tu_holmes]

Powell didn't give out any warnings about insurgent involvement until 2005 or that is what he said in his Biography.
Another book with some interesting commentary
http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/10/timeline_of_den.php

That's not true... he said in front a panel in 2002 that going into Iraq was a mistake... That's not at all accurate.

I watched the panel myself in front of a congressional committee.

[tu_holmes]

Thanks for the posts, Joker.  Has anyone else stopped to consider the positive effects large private enterprise has for the standard of living in a country's economy?  This is basic economics; something that should not be lost on the entrepreneurial minds of this board.

I've thought about it, but I'd rather get our economy on track  before I start worrying about a bunch of people who I could care less about...

[a_joker10]

That's not true... he said in front a panel in 2002 that going into Iraq was a mistake... That's not at all accurate.

I watched the panel myself in front of a congressional committee.

Post a link all committee minutes are on record and on the net.

I am only going from what he said in his biography.
Sound bits from Co-operative research
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=colin_powell

Prove me wrong.

[tu_holmes]

Post a link all committee minutes are on record and on the net.

I am only going from what he said in his biography.
Sound bits from Co-operative research
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=colin_powell

Prove me wrong.

I'm simply going to say that I watched it... I'm not here to prove anyone wrong... I'm simply relating what I remember....

If you think he didn't tell anyone, then fine, but I've found links from sources like the Washington Post stating that in 2001 he did say these things...

I don't need to post them, anyone can find them.

Powell did tell those guys not to go into Iraq perhaps even as early as 2001 (as some articles state)... believe what you will, or try googling "2002 colin powell says don't go to iraq" and look for some articles.

Have fun.

[a_joker10]

I'm simply going to say that I watched it... I'm not here to prove anyone wrong... I'm simply relating what I remember....

If you think he didn't tell anyone, then fine, but I've found links from sources like the Washington Post stating that in 2001 he did say these things...

I don't need to post them, anyone can find them.

Powell did tell those guys not to go into Iraq perhaps even as early as 2001 (as some articles state)... believe what you will, or try googling "2002 colin powell says don't go to iraq" and look for some articles.

Have fun.

Powell's warning was "you break it you own it." and then Powell spoke to he UN about WMDs not before.

No where does he mention the insurgency that was about to happen, or the poor planning.
Others mentioned some of this after the invasion. But a national uprising against America was not foreseen.

[tu_holmes]

Powell's warning was "you break it you own it." and then Powell spoke to he UN about WMDs not before.

No where does he mention the insurgency that was about to happen, or the poor planning.
Others mentioned some of this after the invasion. But a national uprising against America was not foreseen.

What do you think you break it, you own it means? It means if the nation crumbles, it's our fault... he said it was a bad idea.

So now we're specifically talking about "insurgents"? Ok, fine... Powell, didn't say insurgents, he basically implied that you're going into a Lion's Den which is a bad idea... So now you're nit picking semantics?

Funny... No matter how you slice it... Powell said, don't do it... Bush and his cronies said, we're doing it anyway... Powell resigns, and Iraq is a shit hole... just like he said it would be.

You can debate terminology all day, but at the end of the day, Colin Powell said we shouldn't do it, but some other people didn't listen and here we are.

[headhuntersix]

A few guys ..the Army chief of staff at the time, Shinseki, had called for 400,000 to garrison Iraq. There was alot of looting and no plan to rebuild the ifrastructure quickly. Mistakes were made but guess what the demms would have made the same mistakes. They would have listened to the same guys and come to the same conclusions. I don't get American self loathing..this is the greatest country in the world. Ribo listed a few countries he went to. Most were European and don't count. One in  central american and 1...Egypt. Love to know why he was there..vaction etc. Anyway..most of the rest of the world is a shithole where life is very cheap. I can't wait to get back to the states.

[240 is Back]

I think it's incredibly honorable of us to give hundreds of billions $, and 3000 lives, so that iraqis could be free from sense less murder on their streets.

Also very nice of us to voluntarily give up control of their oil, as you say we will.  Giving up control will nearly ensure china gets it and we are on the verge of ColdWar II in 15 years.  But that doesn't matter - we do not steal.  We're the US of A, bitches!

Also really cool of us to be patient with a corrupt and incompetent, ,yet remarkably compliant a-maliki.  in most countries, when you fck up that much they replace you with someone who CAN get the job done.  but they're sticking with their man, as his loyalty is worth far more than the 100+ killed daily by death squads and sunni/shiite warring.

[headhuntersix]

Dude, alot of people are now debating whether we should go with a strong man we can keep from massacring his people. I don't believ u can foster democracy on people who u don't understand the concept. Mistakes have been made but there is no cookie cutter solution. It doesn't matter at this point whether we should have gone..we have to fix the problems and win.

[tu_holmes]

A few guys ..the Army chief of staff at the time, Shinseki, had called for 400,000 to garrison Iraq. There was alot of looting and no plan to rebuild the ifrastructure quickly. Mistakes were made but guess what the demms would have made the same mistakes. They would have listened to the same guys and come to the same conclusions. I don't get American self loathing..this is the greatest country in the world. Ribo listed a few countries he went to. Most were European and don't count. One in  central american and 1...Egypt. Love to know why he was there..vaction etc. Anyway..most of the rest of the world is a shithole where life is very cheap. I can't wait to get back to the states.

I highly doubt the Dems would have gone into Iraq... you certainly can't make that leap... there is nothing that anyone has ever shown would make that jump. They voted with the war because it was unheard of to be against the fight so soon after 9/11.

American self loathing? Man.. I love this country... It does a lot of shit right, and unfortunately a lot of shit wrong.

I also said back in 2002, that Saddam didn't have shit to do with 9/11 and that we should find that Bin Laden fucker first...

I guess now though... it's all self-loathing... how about we call it what it is... "the truth".

Especially since it's been 5 1/2 years and still Bin Laden roams free... wow... guess I should be happy about that.

[a_joker10]

What do you think you break it, you own it means? It means if the nation crumbles, it's our fault... he said it was a bad idea.

So now we're specifically talking about "insurgents"? Ok, fine... Powell, didn't say insurgents, he basically implied that you're going into a Lion's Den which is a bad idea... So now you're nit picking semantics?

Funny... No matter how you slice it... Powell said, don't do it... Bush and his cronies said, we're doing it anyway... Powell resigns, and Iraq is a shit hole... just like he said it would be.

You can debate terminology all day, but at the end of the day, Colin Powell said we shouldn't do it, but some other people didn't listen and here we are.

Powell kind of changed his mind, at least on the public record. That is why posted the cooperative research link.
What he said in 2001 is quite a bit different than what he said in 2002.

HH6 is right a few guys did speak out and many generals did after the fact. But they weren't concerned about a Shiite uprising as much as a baathist and an Al Qaeda war. Al Sadr and the elected Iraqi government changed all of this since they didn't want to deal with militias.

A guy like Jeff Miller or HH6 would know a lot more about Iraq and the US military then I would, especially Jeff he is there right now.

I am sure when HH6 gets back he can tell you why the Taliban is screwing everyone from Pakistan, since he has been dealing with that war up close and personal.

By the way the Dems voted to go into Iraq as well.