These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch

[militarymuscle69]

A White House legal spokesman wouldn't rule out the mutilation of children's genetalia to get the parent to reveal information.  Also the CIA member told ABC news they told  Kalid sheikh muhammad about the torture his children were enduring.

Yes, they reserve that right.

Look man, Like I have said before, if these things have happened they are isolated incidents and in all cases the people that were caught were or are in the process of being removed from the military. I am so tired of the military being called rapists, murderers and molestors. In a community of 2 million people you are bound to have a bad apple.

[Bindare_Dundat]

To be honest, I am surprised to see how some females on this board, such as jaguar, don't at least acknowledge that Iran is a terrible country due to its heavy patriarchal structure.

-Hedge

Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still  not to this day.

[Old_Rooster]

Look man, Like I have said before, if these things have happened they are isolated incidents and in all cases the people that were caught were or are in the process of being removed from the military. I am so tired of the military being called rapists, murderers and molestors. In a community of 2 million people you are bound to have a bad apple.

I bet that guy would still root for his football team if one member of the team was arrested for rape.

[Hedgehog]

Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still  not to this day.

Definitely.

I whole-heartedly agree. One aspect is that women's salaries are lower when they're holding the exact same position in a company.

But culture-huggers who fight for women's right and civil rights in the USA, can't hold different standards for these countries.

Just as well as USA or any other country in the Western Civilization cannot stoop to their low levels.

Because it is our good society that makes us right. If we loses that, we're no better than them.

-Hedge

[Cavalier22]

What are you talking about? Didn't you read the headlines? ...these Iranians are a very uncivilized bunch!


Hot meals, letters home, snazzy suits & cigarettes 

vs.

naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys.

"naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys."

wow.  you are out of your mind.  one naked pyramid, a few murders and rape by random soldiers and now this is what the US stands for?  get a clue, go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and speak your dissent agains the theocratic dictatorships and see what happens

[Cavalier22]

Hedge..please research..the folks at Gitmo are bad guys..pretty much all of them. I'm sure a few are not as bad as some. I spent a few weeks down there in late Oct 2006. These guys are all pretty much terrorists..money guys..or associates of terrorists. Abu Garib was a mistake..but it was war. Nobody got killed...Please read Bravo 2-0 By Andy Mcnab...thats what Iraqi's do to prisoners.

Jag..I loose respect each every day. Iran is a major state sponsor of terrorism....the list of atrocities is long and bloody. Tehran just orchestrated a well designed public relations campaign to show how benevolent they are. They are being pushed into a corner and they reacted stupidly. What..where they going to torture folks they knew they had to give back at some point....gimme a break.

excellent post

[Cavalier22]

A White House legal spokesman wouldn't rule out the mutilation of children's genetalia to get the parent to reveal information.  Also the CIA member told ABC news they told  Kalid sheikh muhammad about the torture his children were enduring.

Yes, they reserve that right.

US soldiers would never torture children.  It would never happen.

[Dos Equis]

Typical left-wing garbage from a socialist rag sheet.

The Mullahs in Iran are anti-thesis of so-called liberal/leftist values with regards to civil rights, woman's rights, and gay rights.

But to the Left, Islamists have one redeeming trait; a savage hatred of America (and the West, as well). That's all the Left needs to hear.

I agree.

[headhuntersix]

Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving  libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.

[Thin Lizzy]

Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still  not to this day.

While that doesn't seem like a long time, there's been an information revolution in the last 100 years: movies, radio, television, and, more recently, the internet.

You can't compare the years 1920-2000 to 1520-1600.

[Hedgehog]

Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving  libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.

Two wrongs doesn't make one right.

What does the "Europeans" have to do with anything here?

If you want to discuss warcrimes and political crimes committed by Spain, Sweden, or any other country, I am all for it.

If you want to discuss the problems of the theocratic society in Iran, I am all gung ho.

But stick to one issue. Don't cop out with claiming that others are doing shit just as bad.

That's no excuse.

-Hedge

[Hedgehog]

A Muslim american?  hmmmmm.  Sure.

IMO, both you and jaguar seems to have a shady understanding for what democracy is.

-Hedge

[headhuntersix]

Two wrongs doesn't make one right.

What does the "Europeans" have to do with anything here?

If you want to discuss warcrimes and political crimes committed by Spain, Sweden, or any other country, I am all for it.

If you want to discuss the problems of the theocratic society in Iran, I am all gung ho.

But stick to one issue. Don't cop out with claiming that others are doing shit just as bad.

That's no excuse.

-Hedge

Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.

[Camel Jockey]

Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving  libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.

England ousted Iran's democrtically elected president Mohmmad Mossadeg in the 60's because he wanted to nationalize Iran's oil and take it away from British Petroleum, which controled Iranian oil back then. They put the Shah in power and that eventually led to the Islamic revolution.

I don't like Iran or any other country that bases its laws on Islam. However, I don't have a problem with Iran taking issue with England for entering its waters. I don't have a problem with a country resisting others when they try and meddle and you shouldn't.

[Hedgehog]

Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.

I disagree, of course.

I don't see Islam as a bastion of freedom.

I and other Europeans (Nordic eg) have numerous times discussed problems in Europe, the Muslim Minority the most recent example.

But let me be crystal clear on one thing: Those who side with dictatures just because those are opposing the USA are political idiots IMO.

You on the other hand seem to equal critisism of the Bush Administration with hatred of the USA. I apologize if I am wrong though.

There are many Republicans or Democrats that could do a better job as a president.

-Hedge

[24KT]

Hedge..please research..the folks at Gitmo are bad guys..pretty much all of them. I'm sure a few are not as bad as some. I spent a few weeks down there in late Oct 2006. These guys are all pretty much terrorists..money guys..or associates of terrorists. Abu Garib was a mistake..but it was war. Nobody got killed...Please read Bravo 2-0 By Andy Mcnab...thats what Iraqi's do to prisoners.

What do you mean no one got killed? there were many deaths due to the torture, as well as out right murders committed there. those pictures initially released were just the tip of the iceberg. Those were just the relatively palatable ones. They've still got all the others along with the videotapes... the ones that show the brutal sadistic acts carried out on innocent men, women, and children. Just because the video of soldiers sodomizing little boys has not yet made the rounds on YouTube, ...don't try to pretend it doesn't exist. And having been stationed in Afghanistan, you know perfectly well the Northern Alliance was scooping up people to turn over to the US in exchange for cash... million of dollars of US tax payer money. People were hunted down like buffalos, their skins turned over to the pelt traders. They collected their money and went off in search of more buffalo pelts to round up... scoop em up... collect your cash
 

Jag..I loose respect each every day.

I'd rather you lose respect than lose yur mind suddenly coming to grips with the attrocities you were made to take part in and believe in, in order to survive the hell hole Bush and his cabal unecessarily put you in.

Iran is a major state sponsor of terrorism....the list of atrocities is long and bloody.

You say that like the USA is no different. Coming from a country with an even longer and bloodier list of attrocities... heck, the USA wrote the book on sponsoring state terrorism. If your country hadn't been doing it from way back... we wouldn't be in this mess now. Remember Mossadegh? Blowback is a bitch

Tehran just orchestrated a well designed public relations campaign to show how benevolent they are. They are being pushed into a corner and they reacted stupidly. What..where they going to torture folks they knew they had to give back at some point....gimme a break.

It seems to me they didn't react stupidly at all. They scored a major PR hit, ...and spoke the truth.
They told the Brits to confess and they'd be home in short order, ...deny and they'd spend 7 yrs for espionage.
They confessed, ...and they were on a plane home. When a prosecutor has the goods on you, and offers you a plea, ...you take it.

[24KT]

systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom?

Yes! All this went on at Abu Ghraib. They even videotaped themselves doing it.

What kind of a moral ethical disconnect takes place in a human being that they can do such a thing and think it not only OK to do, ...but also to videotape?

And once a man has experienced that kind of evil from within himself, what becomes of him?

If you think this war only wreaks destruction upon the enemy... think again.

[Dos Equis]

What do you mean no one got killed? there were many deaths due to the torture, as well as out right murders committed there. those pictures initially released were just the tip of the iceberg. Those were just the relatively palatable ones. They've still got all the others along with the videotapes... the ones that show the brutal sadistic acts carried out on innocent men, women, and children. Just because the video of soldiers sodomizing little boys has not yet made the rounds on YouTube, ...don't try to pretend it doesn't exist. And having been stationed in Afghanistan, you know perfectly well the Northern Alliance was scooping up people to turn over to the US in exchange for cash... million of dollars of US tax payer money. People were hunted down like buffalos, their skins turned over to the pelt traders. They collected their money and went off in search of more buffalo pelts to round up... scoop em up... collect your cash
 
I'd rather you lose respect than lose yur mind suddenly coming to grips with the attrocities you were made to take part in and believe in, in order to survive the hell hole Bush and his cabal unecessarily put you in.

You say that like the USA is no different. Coming from a country with an even longer and bloodier list of attrocities... heck, the USA wrote the book on sponsoring state terrorism. If your country hadn't been doing it from way back... we wouldn't be in this mess now. Remember Mossadegh? Blowback is a bitch

It seems to me they didn't react stupidly at all. They scored a major PR hit, ...and spoke the truth.
They told the Brits to confess and they'd be home in short order, ...deny and they'd spend 7 yrs for espionage.
They confessed, ...and they were on a plane home. When a prosecutor has the goods on you, and offers you a plea, ...you take it.

Another America-hating diatribe.   

[24KT]

"naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys."

wow.  you are out of your mind.  one naked pyramid, a few murders and rape by random soldiers and now this is what the US stands for?

I didn't say this is what the US stands for, ...but it is what went on as a matter of routine within Abu Ghraib.

get a clue, go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and speak your dissent agains the theocratic dictatorships and see what happens

I have no desire to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. So much US intervention into those countries over the years has left a legacy of such brutal repression & dictatorship I have no desire to live there.

Let me ask you this... how much do you know about either country?
...or what is was like there before others decided to meddle there?

The Islamic fundamentalism that has taken hold has done so for a reason, and not without assistance from the USA

[24KT]

Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.

Since when did speaking the truth, or relaying facts become America bashing?

Because those facts make American decisions appear unwise or regrettable in hindsight?

[Hedgehog]

I have no desire to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. So much US intervention into those countries over the years has left a legacy of such brutal repression & dictatorship I have no desire to live there.

Let me ask you this... how much do you know about either country?
...or what is was like there before others decided to meddle there?

The Islamic fundamentalism that has taken hold has done so for a reason, and not without assistance from the USA

I can tell you this: Any Muslim country has laws that aren't women friendly.

The kind of Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia, wahabbism, is a very strict one. Women don't even get to vote. This happened long before USA had interests in the area.

Women takes a backseat in Muslim countries. That is a fact.

Feminism and Islam are two entities that cannot co-exist. I obviously choose the sooner.


Finally, a question:

You claim that USA has intervened in Saudi Arabia. How?

-Hedge

[Thin Lizzy]

Since when did speaking the truth, or relaying facts become America bashing?

Because those facts make American decisions appear unwise or regrettable in hindsight?

When you look for every conceivable reason to bash America, while, at the same, look for every excuse to rationalize the actions of its enemies, then it's America bashing.

My take on you is that you, living in Canada, have American Penis-Envy. IMO, you'd trade your Canadian citizenship for a greencard in a heartbeat.

[240 is Back]

US soldiers would never torture children.  It would never happen.

Some US soldiers raped a 14-year old girl and executed her family one-by-one in the next room, so she was able to hear their killings before the drunken US soldiers finished with her, and killed her also.

[headhuntersix]

Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States.  I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive.  I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.

[240 is Back]

Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States.  I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive.  I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.

And while you may have a hard time getting into heaven with that attitude (if you believe in one), the US DOES need people like you to keep us safe.

Likewise, the US needs people who are very ANTI-war.  It keeps the warmongers from attacking 3 nations a YEAR instead of 3 nations a decade.

Anyone who says "we don't need libs" or "republicans are murderers!" doesn't understand balance, and would end up in a war state, or speaking chinese, in short order without the other side.