Can McCain win after this immigration deal?

[The Enigma]

Did you not know agents were getting personal insurance to protect their assets when ordered to apply batteries to genitals?

That statement is obviously a joke..............I hope. 

[240 is Back]

We haven't tortured people.

I'm still dazzled you believe this.

I mean, there are pictures that show yes, we do torture people.  Real pictures.  People went to prison for it.  Remember?

You're out of touch dude.  You like to insult me and say I'm crazy, and that's fune, we're all a little crazy.  But you have poor information here.  We have used torture.  There is evidence.  We admit it happened and happens.

You're pretty wrong here dude.  If you want to defend torture, that's another issue.  But you said "WE DON'T TORTURE" and there isa  great deal of evidence showing the opposite is true.  If you're wrong about such a simple and obvious thing, I cringe when I think of you trying to debate bigger and more complex topics.  Maybe you should just stick to insulting people.

[240 is Back]

That statement is obviously a joke..............I hope. 

No, sadly.  The group of interrogators went to get insurance to protect their houses should someone take pics and we have Abu Ghirab II. 

It was the catalyst for the white house pushing for torture bills.  Had to legalize it quickly.

[The Enigma]

No, sadly.  The group of interrogators went to get insurance to protect their houses should someone take pics and we have Abu Ghirab II. 

It was the catalyst for the white house pushing for torture bills.  Had to legalize it quickly.

I'd say unbelieveable.....but with the Bush admin. anything is possible/probable.

[militarymuscle69]

Did ya completely miss the pics from Abu Ghirab?

Did you not see the strangulation report from Gitmo?

Did you not know agents were getting personal insurance to protect their assets when ordered to apply batteries to genitals?

Did you miss the ABC report where they interviewed two interrogators and they talked about how KSM lasted 2 minutes of waterboarding before cracking?

DO you own a tv?

Ok I should have clarified. I am not saying there aren't remote instances where dumb shit has happened and I want those idiots brought to justice for making America look stupid. However, people imply that torture is a encouraged by the military and that is just plain false. Oh and once again waterboarding isn't torture, neither is humiliation (abu ghraib) although they went to far.

[240 is Back]

Oh and once again waterboarding isn't torture, neither is humiliation (abu ghraib) although they went to far.

Geneva Convention, which was signed by the US Govt, defines waterboarding as torture.

Your belief that "waterboarding isn't torture" goes against the law of America.

Is America wrong, or are you?

[Decker]

How am I making "your" country look bad? We haven't tortured people. Besides I have more claim to this country than you...I'm sure you haven't forgotten that position in which I believe

Torture.  Our founding fathers thought that barring cruel and unusual punishment was so important that it was codified in the 8th amendment of the US Constitution. 

Torture is not sanctioned in our country’s history (until the Bush Administration) or traditions. 

A true conservative would not support torture.

What is torture?  The Convention on Human Rights http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm defined torture as

“any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”

“A leaked 2004 report by CIA inspector general John Helgerson found that several of the interrogation techniques approved by the agency may violate some of the provisions of the Convention on Torture.”

“What the Bush administration essentially did was “rip up the rulebook as far as military interrogators were concerned, telling them that the decades-old rules of the Army interrogation manual didn’t apply”
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9209/torture_the_united_states_and_laws_of_war.html#7

Let us not forget the Bush Policy of Rendition where suspected terrorists (not even tried or charged) are sent to foreign countries that use torture to elicit information.  More than 100 detainees have reportedly been subject to renditions by the United States in recent years.

Any way you look at it, Torture is UnAmerican and an enemy of mankind.  Only piece shit dictators/death squads/mafia types use torture.

The US is the good guy that fights that garbage.  We don’t emulate them.

[OzmO]

Torture.  Our founding fathers thought that barring cruel and unusual punishment was so important that it was codified in the 8th amendment of the US Constitution. 

Torture is not sanctioned in our country’s history (until the Bush Administration) or traditions. 

A true conservative would not support torture.

What is torture?  The Convention on Human Rights http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm defined torture as

“any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”

“A leaked 2004 report by CIA inspector general John Helgerson found that several of the interrogation techniques approved by the agency may violate some of the provisions of the Convention on Torture.”

“What the Bush administration essentially did was “rip up the rulebook as far as military interrogators were concerned, telling them that the decades-old rules of the Army interrogation manual didn’t apply”
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9209/torture_the_united_states_and_laws_of_war.html#7

Let us not forget the Bush Policy of Rendition where suspected terrorists (not even tried or charged) are sent to foreign countries that use torture to elicit information.  More than 100 detainees have reportedly been subject to renditions by the United States in recent years.

Any way you look at it, Torture is UnAmerican and an enemy of mankind.  Only piece shit dictators/death squads/mafia types use torture.

The US is the good guy that fights that garbage.  We don’t emulate them.

By that very definition WATERBOARDING is torture.

[Dos Equis]

By that very definition WATERBOARDING is torture.

Does waterboarding inflict pain?  Sounds like it is more of a scare tactic than anything else:

The waterboarding technique, characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique,"[9] is described as follows by journalist Julia Layton:

Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

[OzmO]

Does waterboarding inflict pain?  Sounds like it is more of a scare tactic than anything else:

The waterboarding technique, characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique,"[9] is described as follows by journalist Julia Layton:

Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Yeah,  perhaps  but:  severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person   What's described up there causes some severe suffering mental and physical otherwise it wouldn't be an effective technique.  Imagine being water boarded for hours.......

I just think it is what it is.

Obtaining a confession or admittance of information against someone's will, will have to involve some sort of "means".

[Decker]

Does waterboarding inflict pain?  Sounds like it is more of a scare tactic than anything else:

The waterboarding technique, characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique,"[9] is described as follows by journalist Julia Layton:

Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 acknowledged that "torture" is illegal.

The Act then defined what and what does not constitute torture:

The term  ‘serious physical pain or suffering’  means bodily injury that involves—
(I)    a substantial risk of death;
(II)   extreme physical pain;
(III)  a burn or physical disfigurement of a serious nature (other than cuts, abrasions, or bruises);  or
(IV)  significant loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty.

The sly and disgusting 'clarification' above authorizes torture like waterboarding.

If the torture – let’s call it by its right name – involves a  not-so-substantial  risk of death, serious physical pain, burns and physical disfigurement of a minor nature (major laceration and bruises no problemo), and minor permanent mental and physical impairment – the administration can now do it in the open.

The Act ensures against torture by defining it away. The Act raises the bar for what the government considers torture so the government can deny it is torturing people – while it is torturing them. http://ariwatch.com/MilitaryCommissionsAct.htm

You can thank Alberto Gonzales for giving the okey-dokey on defining torture this way.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999148/site/newsweek/

Gonzales is a man of torture. 

[OzmO]

I can now see where some people get the distinction that water boarding isn't torture.  But when my body is tricked into thinking I'm drowning and that goes on for a period of hours..... you can't deny that's torture.


Unless of course your emotionally connected to BUSH 

[militarymuscle69]

Decker, you can't use the quote from the human rights whatever that defines torture, and then use a seperate quote from the military that says torture is illegal, show me where they military classifies waterboarding as torture.

Same with you 240, show me where the geneva conventions lists waterboarding specifically.

I don't have an emotional connection to Bush OzmO. I just stand by my belief that if it doesn't inflict permanent mental or physical scars then it isn't torture.

[ieffinhatecardio]

Oh jesus, you are one of those guys that would let a murderer off because he saw a squirrel get killed when he was a kid. Poor fucking babies, they get caught in a war and get waterboarded. Fuck em, what do you think they are doing to our boys? If our boys didn't want to be detainees they should have stayed out of the military.

I love my mom but science will tell you she has a puss, therefore....yada yada yada...great original comeback with the toothpaste thing... HIGH FIVE

I was wondering why you mentioned the laughing dice guy in that other thread, after just reading this thread I see why.

You've got yourself a new play toy to argue with but he doesn't even come close to saying anything remotely like Mr. Hate does.

Mr. Hate's spew is on a whole different level.

You fukking fag pussy.

[militarymuscle69]

I was wondering why you mentioned the laughing dice guy in that other thread, after just reading this thread I see why.

You've got yourself a new play toy to argue with but he doesn't even come close to saying anything remotely like Mr. Hate does.

Mr. Hate's spew is on a whole different level.

You fukking fag pussy.

unfortunately I have grown to like your dumbass