Those far-left nuts at the ACLU

[Dos Equis]

What's more, if the ACLU is defending groups like NAMBLA for their right to free speech, then why are they going after war memorials, constantly threatening to sue school districts where kids write papers about God, or wear t-shirts that display a belief in God, etc?    

Because they can be anti-religious extremists.  Easiest question of the day.    

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Because they can be anti-religious extremists. 

The ACLU defends separation of church and state.  That gets called being "anti-religious extremists" by people who like to mix their religion with their politics.

[Dos Equis]

The ACLU defends separation of church and state.  That gets called being "anti-religious extremists" by people who like to mix their religion with their politics.

They defend church-state separation, which I support, but they also advocate the cleansing of religion from all aspects of public life, which I oppose. 

[Hedgehog]

Unpopular?  No kidding. 

They shouldn't be doing anything to defend a criminal organization that advocates the rape of little boys.  I don't know why the government hasn't shut that group down. 

As long as they don't break the law, the government can't do anything about it.

However, I think, at least I hope, the FBI are screening the members of NAMBLA.

Also, I believe the government should be pro-active. Meaning it should discretely confront these NAMBLA members and offer help and therapy to keep their demons in check - lots of pedos are former victims themselves.

If it could prevent one boy from being molested, it would be worth it.

-Hedge

[Decker]

What's more, if the ACLU is defending groups like NAMBLA for their right to free speech, then why are they going after war memorials, constantly threatening to sue school districts where kids write papers about God, or wear t-shirts that display a belief in God, etc?    

Federally funded schools cannot proselytize to its' student.  Gov. funds cannot be used to fund religious expression in public areas.

Why is that so bad?

[Colossus_500]

The ACLU defends separation of church and state.  That gets called being "anti-religious extremists" by people who like to mix their religion with their politics.

Then why aren't they going after the Muslims for demanding wash-basins in airports?  So, if Catholics now demand "confessional" booths in the lobbies, the ACLU wouldn't have a problem with it?

[Colossus_500]

Federally funded schools cannot proselytize to its' student.  Gov. funds cannot be used to fund religious expression in public areas.

Why is that so bad?

So a Wiccan kid can wear his t-shirt to school, but the Christian kid isn't allowed to.  Or how about the Muslim women who must wear head gear?  It's for religious purposes, and yet they are allow to do so in schools.  This is why the Alliance Defense Fund is handily defeating the ACLU in their frivolous lawsuits against "religion".  It's not religion the ACLU has a problem with, but more Christianity. 

[Dos Equis]

As long as they don't break the law, the government can't do anything about it.

However, I think, at least I hope, the FBI are screening the members of NAMBLA.

Also, I believe the government should be pro-active. Meaning it should discretely confront these NAMBLA members and offer help and therapy to keep their demons in check - lots of pedos are former victims themselves.

If it could prevent one boy from being molested, it would be worth it.

-Hedge

I agree.  Except I'm not sure pedophiles can be rehabilitated.  

[Hedgehog]

Then why aren't they going after the Muslims for demanding wash-basins in airports?  So, if Catholics now demand "confessional" booths in the lobbies, the ACLU wouldn't have a problem with it?

I think the ACLU is just a bit slow.

They will probably start dealing with the Muslims soon enough.

-Hedge

[Hedgehog]

I agree.  Except I'm not sure pedophiles can be rehabilitated.   

I have doubts myself. Big doubts. To be honest, I don't think it can be "fixed". Just controlled.

But therapy could perhaps lead to them voluntarily getting sterilization, or getting into some kind of program where they were monitored.

We as a society needs to deal with it, instead of just waiting for kids to be raped, and then punish the pedos.

Because the victims are likely to grow up to become pedos themselves.

And if not pedos, they will definitely have disturbed self-images.

-Hedge

[Colossus_500]

Here's why I have a problem with the ACLU when it comes to students' religious rights.  Students are GUARANTEED these rights:

Student Rights Guaranteed Under the Constitution and Federal Law


Freedom to Meet with Other Students for Prayer, Bible Study, and Worship

Freedom to Wear Clothing Depicting Religious Messages and Symbols

Freedom to Express Religious Beliefs on Campus

Freedom to Share Religious Tracts on Campus

Freedom to Pray Voluntarily

Freedom to Carry a Bible or Other Religious Literature

Freedom to Prepare School Assignments and Projects From, and Expressing, a Religious Perspective

Freedom to Observe Religious Holidays on Campus

Freedom to Organize Religious Clubs

Freedom to Live According to Their Religious Beliefs While on Campus

[Decker]

So a Wiccan kid can wear his t-shirt to school, but the Christian kid isn't allowed to.  Or how about the Muslim women who must wear head gear?  It's for religious purposes, and yet they are allow to do so in schools.  This is why the Alliance Defense Fund is handily defeating the ACLU in their frivolous lawsuits against "religion".  It's not religion the ACLU has a problem with, but more Christianity. 

I haven't seen those cases for preferential treatment.  A jew can wear a yamulke, a christian can wear a cross and a Muslim can wear a burqa unless there's a compelling governmental interest to be served that says a person can't wear those things.

[Colossus_500]

I haven't seen those cases for preferential treatment.  A jew can wear a yamulke, a christian can wear a cross and a Muslim can wear a burqa unless there's a compelling governmental interest to be served that says a person can't wear those things.

So how is a t-shirt with a cross on it seen as proselytizing?    The ACLU is constantly drawing up lawsuits like this. 

[Decker]

So how is a t-shirt with a cross on it seen as proselytizing?    The ACLU is constantly drawing up lawsuits like this. 

I haven't seen that case.  If you could link it that would be great.  My point is is that there are some fairly well established rules for religious expression and federally funded schools.

[Colossus_500]

I haven't seen that case.  If you could link it that would be great. 

Here's the decision on a lawsuit against the University of Wisconsin.  You may have heard about this lawsuit:

U. of Wisc. agrees to recognize and fund Roman Catholic student group as it does other groups
Agreement settles case brought by ADF Center for Academic Freedom

ADF steps in after atheist entity challenges status of collegiate Catholic group
MADISON, Wis. — In response to a federal lawsuit filed by the Alliance Defense Fund Center for Academic Freedom, officials at the University of Wisconsin-Madison have agreed to grant official recognition and funding of the Roman Catholic Foundation that serves Catholic students and staff on the Madison campus.  The university and the Roman Catholic Foundation have further agreed to steps that are designed to avoid future disputes and help end viewpoint discrimination against religious organizations.

“Catholics--and Christians of any faith--should not be treated as second-class citizens on campus, and this agreement provides the foundation with full legal equality,” said ADF Senior Counsel David French, director of CAF.  “This settlement represents an extremely positive outcome for religious liberty and for the Roman Catholic Foundation’s long-term presence on campus.  We’re glad that the foundation can now move forward with its ministry without fear of loss of recognition from university officials.”

The University of Wisconsin had refused to recognize the school’s Roman Catholic Foundation, the successor to a group that has served over 50,000 students at the university since its inception in 1883.  The school contended that the foundation was in violation of the school’s “non-discrimination policy” (www.telladf.org/news/story.aspx?cid=3695).

On March 8, a federal judge halted the unconstitutional enforcement of the policy while the lawsuit continued to move forward (www.telladf.org/news/story.aspx?cid=4035).  In the settlement, the foundation will receive $253,000 in student fee funding.

A copy of the settlement in University of Wisconsin-Madison Roman Catholic Foundation v. Walsh can be read at www.telladf.org/UserDocs/UWMadisonSettlement.pdf.

“Hopefully, this resolution will allow the Roman Catholic Foundation to enjoy the full range of its constitutional rights as it focuses on serving the students of the University of Wisconsin-Madison,” said French.



Check out websites for the ADF - www.alliancedefensefund.org or the ACLJ - www.aclj.org

My point is is that there are some fairly well established rules for religious expression and federally funded schools.

True, but those established rules are often misinterpreted.  That's why I posted those religious freedoms covered under federal law and in the constitution

[Decker]

I didn't find a t-shirt case but I did look at the disposition of the UWM case.  I have no beef with the settlement.

[headhuntersix]

The ACLU is the most dangerous single organization in this country..they are extreme leftists who stop at nothing to destroy any American institution they can in the name of fairness. The framers of the Constitution did not intend for God to be left out of eveything..they were much more interested in making sure people were free to worship..not ban it.

[Decker]

The ACLU is the most dangerous single organization in this country..they are extreme leftists who stop at nothing to destroy any American institution they can in the name of fairness. The framers of the Constitution did not intend for God to be left out of eveything..they were much more interested in making sure people were free to worship..not ban it.

It's not fairness that motivates the ACLU.  It is the defense of civil liberties irrespective of who you are or what you believe.

People are free to worship.

In fact I think the ACLU would agree with Christ's admonition:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:6 NIV)

Or how about these:

Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. (Mark 1:35 NIV)

But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed. (Luke 5:16 NIV)

[headhuntersix]

There area lot of things that start off as good idea..the ACLU was one, I guess. They stick their noses into everything, many were they are not wanted. They want to ban religious shrines at military memorials....sorry Decker..we will never agree on this. They are as anti-American as any group I can think of. This country was founded by god fearing men of the christian faith..they never intended to remove religion from the public square. I don't even go to church anymore...and i get queasy at the thought of christain fundemental crap being spewed by many of the Bush supporters..but a simple cross ata memorial site..doesn't bother men at all.

[Decker]

They defend church-state separation, which I support, but they also advocate the cleansing of religion from all aspects of public life, which I oppose. 

Would you carry the same conviction if Muslim religion was advocated in public life on governmental property funded by your tax dollar?

What about having the Koran handed to you as you walk into a public library or a high school for a concert?

Would you bow your head at a high school football game or at a commencement while everyone prayed a public prayer to Allah and his true prophet Muhammed?

Would you walk to any public forum, building or property and be reminded that Muhammed is God's final messenger of the true faith?

Well, now you know how I feel about fundamentalist Christians proselytizing and trying to convert me.

[Decker]

There area lot of things that start off as good idea..the ACLU was one, I guess. They stick their noses into everything, many were they are not wanted. They want to ban religious shrines at military memorials....sorry Decker..we will never agree on this. They are as anti-American as any group I can think of. This country was founded by god fearing men of the christian faith..they never intended to remove religion from the public square. I don't even go to church anymore...and i get queasy at the thought of christain fundemental crap being spewed by many of the Bush supporters..but a simple cross ata memorial site..doesn't bother men at all.

Congress has an official priest.  Crosses occupy many of our military cemeteries.  Our Country was founded by Christians, Deists and Atheists.

If defense of civil liberties is anti-american, then what is pro-american?

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
http://www.aclu.org/about/index.html

I'm not asking for your whole-hearted endorsement of the ACLU. 

I'm just asking you to review the ACLU's side of the story. 

Don't be shy about looking over its website or some case law.

[headhuntersix]

They are bring cases now..to try and remove crosses from war memorials. I have never liked these guys.

[Dos Equis]

Would you carry the same conviction if Muslim religion was advocated in public life on governmental property funded by your tax dollar?

What about having the Koran handed to you as you walk into a public library or a high school for a concert?

Would you bow your head at a high school football game or at a commencement while everyone prayed a public prayer to Allah and his true prophet Muhammed?

Would you walk to any public forum, building or property and be reminded that Muhammed is God's final messenger of the true faith?

Well, now you know how I feel about fundamentalist Christians proselytizing and trying to convert me.

Our country wasn't founded by Muslims.  Our country was founded by Christians, which is evident by how deeply ingrained in our society the Christian God has been since our country's inception.  You might have a valid point if our founding fathers and many of our historical documents referenced the Koran and Allah, but they don't. 

I have people hand me stuff all the time on the street.  Sometimes I accept it, sometimes I don't.  It never bothers me. 

I participated in a Buddhist prayer in my office a year or so ago.  I went to a Mormon church a few weeks ago and took part in their communion.  Didn't bother me one bit.  I'm not threatened by other religions.

Now, what about the extremist positions taken by the ACLU that both Colossus and Headhunter have mentioned?        

[headhuntersix]

Where did we ever get everthing had to be fair...my relatives got very little breaks when they came from Sicily..most Irish or Italians had to work hard..no breaks or cries for fairness. They got screwed and manipulated on a daily basis. They worked hard and assimilated. They knew that hard work would equalize everything. Nothing had to be fair.  The ACLU may do alot of day-to-day stuff which ensures our civil liberties but they also do way to many things that deal with hurting peoples feelings or intrude on their misplaced sense of fairness. I will look at the site but of all the topics on this board..I hate the ACLU per haps the most for their intrutions into treasured American icons and institutions. They always seem to take the side of the extreme minority against the common good because somebodies feelings got hurt.

[Decker]

Our country wasn't founded by Muslims.  Our country was founded by Christians, which is evident by how deeply ingrained in our society the Christian God has been since our country's inception.  You might have a valid point if our founding fathers and many of our historical documents referenced the Koran and Allah, but they don't. 

I have people hand me stuff all the time on the street.  Sometimes I accept it, sometimes I don't.  It never bothers me. 

I participated in a Buddhist prayer in my office a year or so ago.  I went to a Mormon church a few weeks ago and took part in their communion.  Didn't bother me one bit.  I'm not threatened by other religions.

Now, what about the extremist positions taken by the ACLU that both Colossus and Headhunter have mentioned?        

Are you sure our founding fathers reference Jesus or Christianity as a source for the establishment of our country--namely the constitution?

They surely did not.

The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document in that respect.

It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ.

In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.

The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion.

Many were believers themselves.

Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores. Source:  http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation

They may have been christians, deists or atheists, but our government, our United States, is secular. 

From that vantage point, the US is not a Christian nation.  Never has been.

The goal for religion in this country has been to have a plurality.  That is commensurate with the country's goal for race/ethnicity too.

Respect for religious pluralism. . .became the norm.

When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, for example, he spoke of "unalienable rights endowed by our Creator." He used generic religious language that all religious groups of the day would respond to, not narrowly Christian language traditionally employed by nations with state churches.