Author Topic: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU  (Read 13627 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2007, 10:33:30 AM »
Are you sure our founding fathers reference Jesus or Christianity as a source for the establishment of our country--namely the constitution?

They surely did not.

The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document in that respect.

It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ.

In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.

The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion.

Many were believers themselves.

Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores. Source:  http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation

They may have been christians, deists or atheists, but our government, our United States, is secular. 

From that vantage point, the US is not a Christian nation.  Never has been.

The goal for religion in this country has been to have a plurality.  That is commensurate with the country's goal for race/ethnicity too.

Respect for religious pluralism. . .became the norm.

When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, for example, he spoke of "unalienable rights endowed by our Creator." He used generic religious language that all religious groups of the day would respond to, not narrowly Christian language traditionally employed by nations with state churches.





Are you kidding?  Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers weren't referring to Islam or the Muslim God, or anything other than the Christian God when they mentioned "our Creator."  Go back and read any number of posts by loco on this subject.  God and religion are all over the place throughout our history.  It's all over our documents. 

We have a secular government, but not a secular society.  The ACLU doesn't get this concept.     

tu_holmes

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2007, 10:39:50 AM »
Are you kidding?  Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers weren't referring to Islam or the Muslim God, or anything other than the Christian God when they mentioned "our Creator."  Go back and read any number of posts by loco on this subject.  God and religion are all over the place throughout our history.  It's all over our documents. 

   

I disagree with this statement.

I do however, think the ACLU has taken a good idea and given it to the worst people.

Decker

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2007, 10:56:10 AM »
Are you kidding?  Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers weren't referring to Islam or the Muslim God, or anything other than the Christian God when they mentioned "our Creator."  Go back and read any number of posts by loco on this subject.  God and religion are all over the place throughout our history.  It's all over our documents. 

We have a secular government, but not a secular society.  The ACLU doesn't get this concept.     
Jefferson rejoiced that Virginia had passed his religious freedom law, noting that it would ensure religious freedom for "the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, the infidel of every denomination."

Colossus_500

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2007, 10:56:15 AM »
It's not fairness that motivates the ACLU.  It is the defense of civil liberties irrespective of who you are or what you believe.

People are free to worship.

In fact I think the ACLU would agree with Christ's admonition:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:6 NIV)

Or how about these:

Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. (Mark 1:35 NIV)

But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed. (Luke 5:16 NIV)


Be careful that you don't just pick and choose your verses to make your point.  It's better to use the 20/20 rule, where you read 20 verses prior to the verse you are highlighting and 20 verses after to get a broader understanding.  

Decker

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2007, 10:57:06 AM »
The founding fathers did not want a christian nation per se they wanted a pluralistic society.

Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2007, 10:58:51 AM »
Be careful that you don't just pick and choose your verses to make your point.  It's better to use the 20/20 rule, where you read 20 verses prior to the verse you are highlighting and 20 verses after to get a broader understanding.  

Excellent point. 

Decker

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2007, 11:07:08 AM »
Are you kidding?  Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers weren't referring to Islam or the Muslim God, or anything other than the Christian God when they mentioned "our Creator."  Go back and read any number of posts by loco on this subject.  God and religion are all over the place throughout our history.  It's all over our documents. 

We have a secular government, but not a secular society.  The ACLU doesn't get this concept.     
I am talking about our Constitution.

Loco's recititation of letters is informative but legally inconclusive.

"our Creator" is not christianity.

Decker

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2007, 11:13:20 AM »
Be careful that you don't just pick and choose your verses to make your point.  It's better to use the 20/20 rule, where you read 20 verses prior to the verse you are highlighting and 20 verses after to get a broader understanding.  
Good Point. 

But I like strict construction.  When I read, "...close the door and pray to your Father.."  I tend believe it as such.

Colossus_500

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2007, 11:15:02 AM »
Jefferson rejoiced that Virginia had passed his religious freedom law, noting that it would ensure religious freedom for "the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, the infidel of every denomination."
Thomas Jefferson is used often to argue that this country is not based on Judeo-Christian values, which assumes that he himself was not a Christian or did not belive in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  But the truth is Thomas Jefferson was a devout Christian.  He supported the use of the Bible as reading material in schools (how far we've strayed from this notion  :().  He personally prayed at public events.  He attending services in the capital building (held in the Supreme Court of all places!).  He exempted churches from being taxed.  He was very much an advocate for the Church.  Here's some quotes I've found as well:

In 1801, he wrote that "the Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which [the clergy] have enveloped it, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and freest expansion of the human mind."

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”[Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]



Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2007, 11:16:12 AM »
I am talking about our Constitution.

Loco's recititation of letters is informative but legally inconclusive.

"our Creator" is not christianity.

I'm talking about the influence of God and Christianity in our society and how it has been intertwined in our society from its inception.  Groups like the ACLU are trying to remove all of those influences from our society.  It cannot and should not be done.      

The phrase "our Creator" isn't referring to Allah or Buddha.  It's referring to the Christian God.  

tu_holmes

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2007, 11:18:33 AM »
Quote
The phrase "our Creator" isn't referring to Allah or Buddha.  It's referring to the Christian God.  


Disagree.

It was specifically designed to not say ANY particular "diety".

The founding fathers were smart cookies and knew what they were doing.

If they wanted to say "God", they would have said, "God".

Colossus_500

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2007, 11:21:54 AM »
Excellent point. 
This a lesson I've personally had to experience.   ;)

Colossus_500

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2007, 11:23:23 AM »
If they wanted to say "God", they would have said, "God".
They DID!!!

tu_holmes

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2007, 11:23:50 AM »
They DID!!!

Where?

Declaration of Independence?

Constitution?

Where did they say "God" on a legal document representing the government of the United States of America?

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2007, 11:24:27 AM »
Our country wasn't founded by Muslims.  Our country was founded by Christians, which is evident by how deeply ingrained in our society the Christian God has been since our country's inception. 

You could also accurately say our country was founded by genocidal, sexist, slave owners.  Those laws and practices had to change in order for the humanistic principles of this country to have a chance to manifest.  The same is true with keeping church and state separate.  The first amendment is about freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion.
Stick out your tongue.

Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2007, 11:27:17 AM »
Disagree.

It was specifically designed to not say ANY particular "diety".

The founding fathers were smart cookies and knew what they were doing.

If they wanted to say "God", they would have said, "God".

Tu I think you have to read the references to God and "our Creator" throughout our historical documents in the context of how religion was viewed by our founding fathers.  Just look at what Colossus posted--quotes from Thomas Jefferson.  Is there any doubt he is referring to the God Christians worship?  

They never intended for America to be a religious-free society.  They wanted religious freedom and not a theocracy, but they didn't intend for religion to have no influence on public life.  

Hedgehog

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2007, 11:29:40 AM »
Tu I think you have to read the references to God and "our Creator" throughout our historical documents in the context of how religion was viewed by our founding fathers.  Just look at what Colossus posted--quotes from Thomas Jefferson.  Is there any doubt he is referring to the God Christians worship? 

They never intended for America to be a religious-free society.  They wanted religious freedom and not a theocracy, but they didn't intend for religion to have no influence on public life.   

Food for thought then: Did they intend for women and blacks to have civil rights?

-Hedge
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Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2007, 11:30:01 AM »
You could also accurately say our country was founded by genocidal, sexist, slave owners.  Those laws and practices had to change in order for the humanistic principles of this country to have a chance to manifest.  The same is true with keeping church and state separate.  The first amendment is about freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion.

O.K.  Our country was founded by genocidal, sexist, slave owners.  Obviously, those practices and beliefs were immoral.  

The First Amendment says nothing about our society being free from religion.    

Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2007, 11:30:20 AM »
Food for thought then: Did they intend for women and blacks to have civil rights?

-Hedge

No.

tu_holmes

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2007, 11:34:53 AM »
Tu I think you have to read the references to God and "our Creator" throughout our historical documents in the context of how religion was viewed by our founding fathers.  Just look at what Colossus posted--quotes from Thomas Jefferson.  Is there any doubt he is referring to the God Christians worship?  

They never intended for America to be a religious-free society.  They wanted religious freedom and not a theocracy, but they didn't intend for religion to have no influence on public life.  

Again, I disagree...

Decker

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2007, 11:39:49 AM »
I'm talking about the influence of God and Christianity in our society and how it has been intertwined in our society from its inception.  Groups like the ACLU are trying to remove all of those influences from our society.  It cannot and should not be done.      

The phrase "our Creator" isn't referring to Allah or Buddha.  It's referring to the Christian God.  

We do agree that gov. is secular and society is not.  That's sort of easy.  But I see no textual evidence for your ascribing creator with Jesus the Christian God.

headhuntersix

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2007, 11:41:55 AM »
They did not want to face a Puritanical religion hoisted on them such as those who fled England. They never intended to remove god from the public square. The framers were god fearing men in the christain sense.
L

Dos Equis

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2007, 11:44:40 AM »
We do agree that gov. is secular and society is not.  That's sort of easy.  But I see no textual evidence for your ascribing creator with Jesus the Christian God.

See the post by Colossus a few posts up.  That's one of about 999 references to the Christianity and the Christian God by our founding fathers. 

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2007, 11:44:46 AM »
The First Amendment says nothing about our society being free from religion.    

I guess you haven't heard of the Establishment Clause, more commonly known as separation of church and state.  No government body can require religious observation of any type.  That is freedom from religion.
Stick out your tongue.

Camel Jockey

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Re: Those far-left nuts at the ACLU
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2007, 11:45:11 AM »
Thomas Jefferson is used often to argue that this country is not based on Judeo-Christian values, which assumes that he himself was not a Christian or did not belive in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  But the truth is Thomas Jefferson was a devout Christian.  He supported the use of the Bible as reading material in schools (how far we've strayed from this notion  :().  He personally prayed at public events.  He attending services in the capital building (held in the Supreme Court of all places!).  He exempted churches from being taxed.  He was very much an advocate for the Church.  Here's some quotes I've found as well:

In 1801, he wrote that "the Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which [the clergy] have enveloped it, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and freest expansion of the human mind."

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”[Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]






Thomas Jefferson also made several quotes against religion, especially christianity. And don't forget that everyone was expected to be religious back then. I'm not gonna go on a google rampage like you to prove my point.

If you think this nation was founded on christian values, then you couldn't be more wrong. This nation was founded on the philosophy of men like John Locke, David Hume and Adam Smith. Go read up on these great men and you'll see.