Author Topic: LAT TRAINING  (Read 10050 times)

The_Crusher

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2007, 03:12:24 PM »
Too simplistic, there are other similar alternatives using the same basic motions. Plus you've completely neglected pullovers even though they've been mentioned here repeatedly. ::)

Simplicity is the way to get results. If you want mass, keep it simple. Anyway pull-over are really used to tie in pics with lats. I personally use pull-over strictly for pic training.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2007, 03:34:24 PM »
Simplicity is the way to get results. If you want mass, keep it simple. Anyway pull-over are really used to tie in pics with lats. I personally use pull-over strictly for pic training.

What i'm saying is that there are other exercises just as good for each you mentioned.

Plus there were no pullovers.

pobrecito

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2007, 04:43:49 PM »
The single best exercise for the lats, bar none is the Nautilis pullover machine. Second would be the barbell row.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2007, 05:01:56 PM »
The single best exercise for the lats, bar none is the Nautilis pullover machine. Second would be the barbell row.

Agreed on the pullover machine including other more recent brands. After that it's very debatable; probably chins. As far as rowing motions there are several that are equally good, no one exercise.

Get Rowdy

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2007, 05:37:11 PM »
In regard to feeling the lats working, for me I need to use a thumbless or "false" grip.  When I use a regular grip with the thumb around the bar I feel my biceps taking over the load.  Just something I've found usefull on chins and rows.

Get Rowdy

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2007, 05:40:12 PM »
Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one.  Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2007, 06:37:58 PM »
Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one.  Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?

The closest thing is to use ab straps, attached to either a lat pulley or chin bar. Can also use a low pulley while lying on your back on a bench. Then do a pullover motion using the elbows. Unlike dumbbell or cable pullover motions, this takes the secondary muscles out of the motion and makes it similar to a pullover machine.

If you're going to use the normal cable or dumbbell pullover, try different grips. I find that a neutral grip with palms facing one another takes more of the other muscles out of it and hits the lats better-rope attachment on pulleys, triceps hammer bar for free weight pullovers.

Also, do free weight pullovers on a decline.

Get Rowdy

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2007, 06:55:07 PM »
The closest thing is to use ab straps, attached to either a lat pulley or chin bar. Can also use a low pulley while lying on your back on a bench. Then do a pullover motion using the elbows. Unlike dumbbell or cable pullover motions, this takes the secondary muscles out of the motion and makes it similar to a pullover machine.

Thanks!  :)

wes

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2007, 02:23:39 AM »
Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy.  I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that.  I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure.  I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow.  Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are.  They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout.  They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results.  For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats.  I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked.  I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.
I didn`t say train like a wimp,I said train correctly using good form.

Go heavy,but use perfect form...........at times a certain amount of "controled cheating" is permissable,and I often do it on certain bodyparts but as far as the back goes,it seems lots of people fall short in developing it their full potential because it is never worked fully................... heaving or jumping up heavy rows for example with 275 pounds at a bodyweight of 160 pounds only gave me a sore lower back.................... 185 pounds works my back much more fully,as a result,my back has improved...........Ronni e can still sleep at night and doesn`t have to worry,but progress comes very slowly as a rule for me so I`ll take it anytime it comes along!!  :)

In regards to your statement that once a person can bench 500 for 8-10 reps and chin with an additional 200 pounds of added weight..............I see hundreds of people doing this everyday,it`s commonplace, and they still had weak ass lats!!  LOL  :)

pobrecito

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2007, 06:58:43 AM »
Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one.  Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?

I have yet to find any free weight alternative that can compare to the Nautilis Pullover machine - the feel in your lats is unreal the way the machine isolates them.

thewickedtruth

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2007, 07:28:06 AM »
Agreed on the pullover machine including other more recent brands. After that it's very debatable; probably chins. As far as rowing motions there are several that are equally good, no one exercise.

I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine. I feel freeweights to be abit more taxing because lately I've noticed a different "feel" from HS equipment or machines vs. free weights. Mix it up and don't use the same old routine all the time. Vary the places in which you put certain exercises to vary the amoutn of weight and possible strain on that area worked, reps, sets. this is typical shit guys. The same stuff we've been doing that people seem to forget. It's called basics for a reason. If you get two decent rowing movements and two decent pulling movements into a back workout, then you've pretty much got all bases covers. If you're going to use the same exercises all the time though, change your grip, grip width, hand positions such as over hand vs. underhand. ETC. EACH will hit the back different and stimulate it in ways the SAME exercise with another style of grip didn't previously. I'm a firm believer in going as heavy as you can as hard as you can but still feeling the muscle being worked. You can't tell me you can crank out a big back with 60lb dumbbell rows wtih super strick form and squeezing the lats hard. THey'll grow to fit the stress put on them but, to be big and THICK, you've got to move heavier weights. Heavy is relative to the person though.

..I wanted to put a little side note on all this too. Before you jump balls deep into any sort of heavy lifting or weight training in general. LEARN PROPER FORM! proper form is key to handling heavier weight safely later on down the road when your training calls for it! I'd never be able to do bent over barbell rows with 405lbs today SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY if I didn't learn how to properly execute the movement with precision and technique. You might think you're hot shit til you hurt yourself and have to start back all over again. This stuff takes time. If this shit was easy, we'd all be big and we'd all be in awesome shape. The wicked truth is, nothing in life worth having comes cheap or easy.

trab

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2007, 07:57:17 AM »
Heavy relative to the person, yes. THe 60's are real good for a small guy. 90 is too much for many.
It do need to be demanding to the person doing it though.
Nothing wrong w/ some 3 rep sets to failure here and there. Builds strength FAST.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2007, 07:58:48 AM »
I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine.

To say that tells me you haven't considered all angles & still have the usual free weight bias seen with so many lifters; part the macho thang as well as conventional thinking. The best thing is a combination of both that takes the advantages of each, depending on the muscle and exercise.

Free weight versions of pullovers enlist secondary muscles that machines remove. Machines make it a purer more focused exercise on the desired torso area. Someone can use the usual anti-machine argument about the ROM, the fact it's more rigid, etc., but that's a separate & very debatable issue with pros & cons, aside from the above fact that isn't debatable that machine pullovers have a huge advantage in removing the secondary muscles. Exactly why i suggested ab straps for cable or bodyweight pullovers-far more isolating.

The isolation of a pullover machine such as the Nautilus is exactly why it's still a classic decades later-free weight version of this can't compare. Sergio Oliva said those machines were more effective than free weights when he got into his best shape in 1972.

The Nautilus pullover was *the* classic Nautilus machine, even at the old Gold's.


pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2007, 08:00:10 AM »
I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine. I feel freeweights to be abit more taxing because lately I've noticed a different "feel" from HS equipment or machines vs. free weights.

The fact that you "built your back" on only rows tells me you have lots of untapped, neglected potential that's been left on the table. Chins/pulldowns AND pullovers dude. ;)

trab

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2007, 08:02:38 AM »
Dorian on that Pullover Machine in his vid. is good enough for me.
Got any pics of other Pullover Machs? Pretty scarce around here. I never come acrost 1 I like.

Machines?
Like Chris Cormeir said, "You cant tell me Ya can hang 4 plates ea side of a hammer strength Mach; pound out reps and not grow - Please!"

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2007, 08:09:28 AM »
Dorian on that Pullover Machine in his vid. is good enough for me.
Got any pics of other Pullover Machs? Pretty scarce around here. I never come acrost 1 I like.

Machines?
Like Chris Cormeir said, "You cant tell me Ya can hang 4 plates ea side of a hammer strength Mach; pound out reps and not grow - Please!"

What Cormier said i've believed for decades; you put serious effort for a period of time into a well-designed leverage machine including brands like Hammer and the body has to grow. Intensity on the muscle beyond anything else IMO.

Hammer named one of their leverage row machines after Yates he liked it that much. ;)

thewickedtruth

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2007, 08:18:50 AM »
The fact that you "built your back" on only rows tells me you have lots of untapped, neglected potential that's been left on the table. Chins/pulldowns AND pullovers dude. ;)

Man you've read my workout log. You know better than that.  AND I stated in my wording that if you get a few pulldown movements no matter what tehy are and rowing movements, you can effectively worked your back without worrying if you could've missed out on something.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2007, 08:24:44 AM »
Man you've read my workout log. You know better than that.  AND I stated in my wording that if you get a few pulldown movements no matter what tehy are and rowing movements, you can effectively worked your back without worrying if you could've missed out on something.

I just went with what you said above; that log might've only been in effect for weeks.

thewickedtruth

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2007, 08:32:03 AM »
I just went with what you said above; that log might've only been in effect for weeks.

Okay then yeah, you're right. I apologize.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2007, 08:34:45 AM »
Okay then yeah, you're right. I apologize.

No need dude, we're just talking, as a forum should be.

What do you think of my points on using a pullover machine? Can't remember but i think you're doing both pulldowns and chins or pulldowns now in training?

jpm101

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2007, 09:00:47 AM »
Having had some very intense workouts with the original style Nautilis  pullover machine, I witness to it's direct influence on lat building. Of course with the narrow curl grip pull down bar (right in front of you..can not miss it) as the second phase of the pullover exercise. Superior because the main resistance is on the point of the elbows, where it should be for full effect. That and the three phased Nautilis cam bearing. Once you jam yourself into the seating bench, your getting a full and complete stretch of the lat's themselves. Two or three sets were tops. But BB'ers being BB's, some decided to tweak this a bit and added other exercise to a lat workout. Big mistake which lead to overworking the lat's giving less or no results for muscle building efforts. And than these misguided BB'ers blamed the Nautilis machine as being no good.

If trying to build the lats in the conventional way (rows, chins, cables, etc) the arms will always be the weakest link, giving out before the lats can be fully worked as they should be. With the point of resistance on the elbows, that is done away with. Nautilis and other like designed pullover machines  have the advantage for lat building because of the elbow placement.

The DL & STDL do not require any pulling action from the arms. The arms are holding the bar in place while the rest of the body does the blunt of the lifting. The upper body acts to keep it's self in a upright position and stable with regular DL's. While the SLDL is a extension from the core center of the body, it still is keeping a stable influence. A very broad and thick back/lats can be built from either exercise.

BB or DB pullovers come closest to a ideal lat exercise. The Nautilis machine was designed to copy the action of these exercises.  Do not know if their still around, but elbow slings (with pouches) were made for cable pulls and chins, where the resistance was on the point of the elbows. Could increase the weight used greatly on any exercise done with the slings. The Ab strap, though interesting, give a shorter ROM. And seem not too functional for the purpose of lat building.

If anyone has the opportunity to use a original Nautilis pullover machine, than add SLDL's as the only other lat/back exercise to the workout. If not Nautilis than try doing DB/BB bent arm pullovers followed by curl grip BB rows (into the lower gut...holding for a second). Going for a tri set, than try straight arm pullovers, bent arm pullovers and curl grip lat machine pulldowns. Chins are a first selection over lat pulldowns if you still have the energy left to do them the right way. Good Luck.

F

thewickedtruth

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2007, 09:18:12 AM »
No need dude, we're just talking, as a forum should be.

What do you think of my points on using a pullover machine? Can't remember but i think you're doing both pulldowns and chins or pulldowns now in training?

I don't do chins save at the end of a stretch..I don't do them as an actual exercise. My big ass is hard to get up there though I did get 15 wide gip chins@247lb bodyweight which makes me happy. My bi's felt it though..not my back. Yeah I'm mixing it up. I LOVE lat machine pull overs to polish off things if I still feel like I need more out of my back days. Yes..I LOVE pulldowns. They've really brought my back out..especially in the middle and top of my back.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2007, 09:37:28 AM »
PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.

pumpster

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2007, 10:37:37 AM »
I don't do chins save at the end of a stretch..I don't do them as an actual exercise. My big ass is hard to get up there though I did get 15 wide gip chins@247lb bodyweight which makes me happy. My bi's felt it though..not my back. Yeah I'm mixing it up. I LOVE lat machine pull overs to polish off things if I still feel like I need more out of my back days. Yes..I LOVE pulldowns. They've really brought my back out..especially in the middle and top of my back.

You know some say that chins are better than pulldowns. It's not true, they're similar in effect while still slightly different. There are some good reasons to do chins, but just as many to do pulldowns to front and back:

-If you go heavy on pulldowns close or higher than bodyweight they're just as intense on the lats as chins IF you don't lean back. It's ok to cheat sometimes but don't do them leaning way back keep the back straight. Similarly good effect to chins in general;  slightly different. Doing them to the back hits the lats differently, and if you don't bring the bar all the way down to the bottom it's not really that hard on the shoulders.

-You can choose a wider variety of grips, which makes a difference in the effect.

-You can sit farther back or forward and hit them at different angles, something not possible with chins. Can also face the other way for a different angle, on either chins or pulldowns.

-Let's face it chins are exhausting, pulldowns aren't. Being wiped out after chins can take away some of the appeal when pulldowns work well without causing the same fatigue.

trab

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Re: LAT TRAINING
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2007, 10:44:01 AM »
Yeah, I think it's great if someones Fit enough to hit 100 reps of chins, But if it's MASSIVE ya want, you should be adding weight to stall you at lets say teh 5-10 rep neighborhood.