LAT TRAINING

[IrishMuscle84]

Whats a good LAT TRAINING ROUTINE.....my lats piss me off, they wont grow for jackshit.

[AVBG]

WHATS YOUR CURRENT BACK ROUTINE?

[Bigger Business]

deadlift

[trab]

deadlift

Yes! And, Dorian style rev grip BB row, and all other Rows. Dont be afraid to heave the big bells!
Aim for 40lbs more than you use now and hit it!

[thewickedtruth]

Yes! And, Dorian style rev grip BB row, and all other Rows. Dont be afraid to heave the big bells!
Aim for 40lbs more than you use now and hit it!

Good shit. My back sounded just like your situation. It takes heavy movements with LOTS of variations in exercises. You've got to hit the bakc from as many angles as possible as heavy as possible to tear it up and help it grow. Once I started moving big weight, my back has become one of my best body parts. You've got to figure out what works for you. Logical deduction will get you on your way. If you're doing the same weight for months, time to move up. If you're doing high volume wiht nothing, cut it down a little. If you're busting ass but only eat like a bird, time to shove some food down the pipe. Train hard and train smart..and you'll be surprised with the results you'll get.

[trab]

Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.

**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!

[Mike]

Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.

**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!

Good suggestions.  I'd focus on Weighted Chins and Pullovers as well as HEAVY deadlifts (sumo stance, regular, rack deads and romanian....vary weekly)

[trab]

Heres another. The Comercial gyms wont tollerate it  but...
Hang Heavy chain lengths on the PullDown Mach for resistance. The resistance > as you get into the stronger part of your pull,
you can coustamize the point of Load paramaters. Bands can to.

[IrishMuscle84]

My back routine i always start with LATS, I just usually do heavy lat pulldowns, and maybe do a set of chin-ups, which i cant do for shit. After lats Ill do deadlifts then finish up back with 2 differant row exercises, T-Bar Rows, bent-over rows, or cable rows.

[Mike]

i always

Get rid of that phrase and you might have a chance.  You need to be varying your workouts to get better results.

[trab]

BTW  a lot of PR's in Bench Press are set after a warmup of heavy DB rows.
My best bench sessions allways are.

[jpm101]

Dl's are great but for a difference stretch and lat influence, might include SLDL's as a  alternate exercise.  Extend the grip wider than the usually middle hand spacing, nearer the inside collars as much as you can. (this wider grip is very good for shrugging exercises) This also goes for regular BB rows and DL's. Change grips from time to time. Curl grip BB rows (can also do this with a DB, one arm at a time..effective) to my way of thinking, is a superior exercise for the lats. In any case, pull into the pit of the stomach and hold each rep for a second. Extra wide, middle and narrow grip chins, in the same workout are rewarding. Try lowering the body, one arm at a time, as a final set when chinning. Gives overall strength to regular chins.  In any event, might try experimenting with different hand grips for different results. Wonder if anyone here as ever done one arm DL's. A whole new feel to back and lat training. You can straddle the bar rather than in the regular front facing the bar position. Strongman stuff but also a muscle builder.

For myself, the bent arm pullover is one of the master exercise for the lat's. Either BB or DB, but DB's can give a better stretch and the worry of hitting you head/face on the way up is reduced. Called the upper body squat and for good reason. Some will SS straight arm pullover with bent arm pullovers with great results. Can SS straight arm pullovers with any other lat/back exercise for a new slant on training. Some people think of only light or moderate weight when doing SS's. But that's not always true. Huge weights can be used when worked up to.  Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.

**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!

Agreed:

-Pulldowns/chins to front & back
-Pullovers
-Rows - sometimes BB rows are the least effective. Also try t-bar, hammer and one-arm DB.


Deadlifts are a nice way to get injured; keep the reps high and consider more limited range ROMs, as he says, or hyperextensions.

[trab]

Yeah, I forgot the Hammer strength row and pulldown Mach. I think I got some cool Pics of Dorian on that somewhere.

Deads? If your a home trainer w/ out a power rack, you can nail together 2x12" boards various height to
get if off the ground a bit. Put a little 2x2'' edgeing on to keep it from rolling off.

Many dont realize many top PLers never do full range bench or free squat except at comp.
To hard on teh body. Board press & box squats in training only. Save the low back, leave the super human feats to the freaks built 4 it .

[Herc]

For lats I like to do wide grip pullups to the front.  Pick a rep range like 8 to 10 or 10 to 12 and go as hard and heavy as you can.  If you can do more then your rep range strap on 5lbs.  Stay at that wieght till you can get to the top of your rep range.  I always only count the first set as to whether I will up the wieght next time.  So if my first set I can do 12 but the second only 10 ill still up the wieght. Also lift hard(none of that slow motion or medium paced lifting) explode up as hard as you can and have the attitude you will beat whatever you did last time. I get the best results if I lift like im pissed off.  I explode like im angry or have just lost it. More then what particular exercise you do its how much intesity you put into it that will get results.  Ive done pulldowns and pullups and both worked as long as I pushed as hard as I can.

[wes]

Sometimes the problem with training back is going too heavy!

I know this sounds contradictory to the "Go heavy,or go home" attitude,but at times if you lighten the load and pull with the lats first,then the arms,you will acheive a better mind/muscle connection which will result in growth.

I bet no one gets a good tight pumped feeling in their lats like they do in their biceps or forearms,because you are merely heaving big weight from Point A to Point B instead of focusing on contracting and stretching the lats with a good squeeze.

I used to row mega-heavy but since I`ve lightened the load due to a lower back inujry,my back development is far better.

Try T-Bar rows with 5 big plates and you mostly get a sore lower back along with sore hamstrings.......now try it using 25 pound plates,bringing the bar to the chest in a controlled manner,pausing/squeezing for a sec,and getting a good stretch at the bottom.......just one example.

The back is a hard area to "feel" when training........lighten the load,rest less between sets,and work on getting a better mind/muscle connection with a squeeze and stretch regardless of exercise choice and I bet your back growth will improve.

[jpm101]

Good experienced advice from Wes. Also concentration on the elbows, rather than the actual pulling  motion from the biceps, makes a lot of difference when calling the lat's into play. Though a great lat/back exercise, some BB'ers should back off the chins and  do lat pulldowns, etc. That way the weight can be adjusted and handle the way it should. From the full overhead extension to the point on contraction, the exercise can be controlled  more, making sure the lat's get the full work load they need. Nothing against the chin (one of my favorite exercises, front and behind the neck..with added weight) but some trainee's are  just not suited for it. It becomes a ego exercise and may fall short of giving it's full muscle building potential. Some guy's may be better off doing negative chins for awhile, with better slow and controlled motion.

Pullovers (straight or bent arm) affect my lat's greatly with a full pump and stretch. As do SLDL's with a wider than normal grip. Good luck.

[trab]

Sometimes the problem with training back is going too heavy!

I know this sounds contradictory to the "Go heavy,or go home" attitude,but at times if you lighten the load and pull with the lats first,then the arms,you will acheive a better mind/muscle connection which will result in growth.

I bet no one gets a good tight pumped feeling in their lats like they do in their biceps or forearms,because you are merely heaving big weight from Point A to Point B instead of focusing on contracting and stretching the lats with a good squeeze.

I used to row mega-heavy but since I`ve lightened the load due to a lower back inujry,my back development is far better.

Try T-Bar rows with 5 big plates and you mostly get a sore lower back along with sore hamstrings.......now try it using 25 pound plates,bringing the bar to the chest in a controlled manner,pausing/squeezing for a sec,and getting a good stretch at the bottom.......just one example.

The back is a hard area to "feel" when training........lighten the load,rest less between sets,and work on getting a better mind/muscle connection with a squeeze and stretch regardless of exercise choice and I bet your back growth will improve.

Hey Wess I like everything you say, But just want to point out 1 little  thing, YOU ARE ADVANCED, and the beginners need to understant that they need to build up to some semblance of strength to put on more new mass.
So many pumpers stay the same and NEVER CHANGE. tHEY can up light reps to infinity and it wont put a Gram of solid BW on their chassis.

But yes, control and a tight contraction is very VERY import.

[thewickedtruth]

I feel you should use the heaviest weight you can move and still feel your lats working. When you DON'T feel them working is when you're using more of your body than you're supposed to to do the movement. If you pull your shoulders and arms back and squeeze hard each rep you should feel it working. If you don't, or don't know what I'm talking about, you need to find out what it feels like to hit the lats FIRST by using just the bar or lighter weight whatever exercise you're doing and then experiment. Find the exercises that hit the back that YOU feel the best. Those will be the best for you because they fit well to your body type and design. Just don't do this or that exercise becuase so and so said to. Try before you buy!

[pumpster]

Hey Wess I like everything you say, But just want to point out 1 little  thing, YOU ARE ADVANCED, and the beginners need to understant that they need to build up to some semblance of strength to put on more new mass.
So many pumpers stay the same and NEVER CHANGE. tHEY can up light reps to infinity and it wont put a Gram of solid BW on their chassis.

But yes, control and a tight contraction is very VERY import.

Generally agree with your posts but in this case, for lats and chest nuance matters for development, not for strength. Try to get the form right as much as possible, even if only for part of each set until fatigue takes over. Try to maintain good form until fatique makes it impossible, then continue with imperfect form, partial ROMs, cheats, rest-pause, etc. - whatever it takes to exceed your previous best reps/weight:

-Elbows in, pulling/pushing with them, making sure it's felt in the muscles.
-Doing this creates scapula restraction - shoulders back and slightly scrunched together, pushing the elbows slightly forward. In effect you're making the compound exercises a little more skewed towards isolation of the torso muscles and away from secondary arm and delt muscles.
-This also reduces the chance of shoulder impingement aka injury.
-Experiment with different grips and grip widths. For example, it's not necessarily essential to use wide grips.


Try to maintain form as much as possible even at the end, cheat the weight up before entirely abandoning form!!

[trab]

There's a small gym in CHaing Mai, the owner is a welder and makes most all his stuff,
anyway, Hes got several mirrors angled so you can see your back work in like the 70 degree row and squats too. Really helpfull for form.

[Herc]

Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy.  I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that.  I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure.  I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow.  Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are.  They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout.  They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results.  For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats.  I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked.  I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.

[pumpster]

Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy.  I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that.  I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure.  I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow.  Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are.  They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout.  They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results.  For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats.  I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked.  I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.

Generally agree. Increase the workload by whatever means necessary.

BUT..I feel i'm getting better results now by doing it right.

Try to get form right especially at the beginning/middle of sets, then sacrifice some form later in order to improve performance when it gets tough using cheats, rest-pause, partials, etc. - whatever it takes to increase the intensity/load on the muscle.

[The_Crusher]

The three kings of back movments are worked in this order. 1.) Chins - just your body weight. As many as you can do cleanly per set. 2.) T-Bar rows - the ultimate for back thickness. 3.) Low pulley rows - brings in the lower lats to complete the back. Enjoy the rewards of a well worked back! 

[pumpster]

The three kings of back movments are worked in this order. 1.) Chins - just your body weight. As many as you can do cleanly per set. 2.) T-Bar rows - the ultimate for back thickness. 3.) Low pulley rows - brings in the lower lats to complete the back. Enjoy the rewards of a well worked back! 

Too simplistic, there are other similar alternatives using the same basic motions. Plus you've completely neglected pullovers even though they've been mentioned here repeatedly. There's really no need for two rowing motions, you can hit high or low lats with either T-bars or pulley rows using different angles.