LAT TRAINING

[pobrecito]

PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.

Weighted pullups are KING for upper lat width, however, nothing, NOTHING compares to the pullover machine for absolute lat THICKNESS. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of using a Nautilis pullover machine, I would highly recommend you try and find a gym with one. The isolation it gives for the lats is unlike any other free weight exercise, even dumbell pullovers. With the dumbell you often just end up working the chest and triceps more so that the lats.

[pumpster]

PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.

Pulldowns can be quite similar in effect, and are a lot less exhausting; see previous post.

[The Squadfather]

Weighted pullups are KING for upper lat width, however, nothing, NOTHING compares to the pullover machine for absolute lat THICKNESS. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of using a Nautilis pullover machine, I would highly recommend you try and find a gym with one. The isolation it gives for the lats is unlike any other free weight exercise, even dumbell pullovers. With the dumbell you often just end up working the chest and triceps more so that the lats.

what gym here in St. Louis has a Nautilus Pullover? my gym has a stupid Nautilus Nitro version but it's not the same.

[pumpster]

what gym here in St. Louis has a Nautilus Pullover? my gym has a stupid Nautilus Nitro version but it's not the same.

Shawn Perrine of Iron Age specifically claims that the Nitros at Gold's Venice are comparable.

YMCAs especially bigger ones that have been around a long time still have some older equipment; the largest and oldest Y in my hometown has one amongst a line of old equipment and a bunch of Nautilus stuff. I know that Nautilus makes several lines, one of which still uses the origin cams.

The original Nautilus pullover prototype supposedly still works in a Tulsa, OK YMCA.

Other brands are good now including the Hammer pullover. Arthur Jones son runs Hammer so figure it's good if not quite the same. The MedX pullover is very likely close to the original.

http://www.leeapperson.com/bookone/intensitypagezero.html

[jpm101]

Art Jones had a patten on all his Nautilus designed cam's on his machines. The name Nautilus is taken from the Nautilus sea shell that looks like the design of the cam bearings. I would doubt that the Nitro version is the same as the original Nautilus machine due to patten laws. Or any other type pullover machine for that matter.

Jones also had another lat machine pulldown devise. Instead of moving the arms down and in front of the body, you would move the arms sideways, inline with the body. Something like a chin behind the neck motion. I used this side machine also. it was just as tough as the front pulldown version. Again, really had to jam yourself into that one.(not to mention Jones shoulder machine, which was excellent) The reason these machines were so good was because they allowed that very strong point of leverage on the elbows to do the work. Hitting the lats directly. Taking the weaker arms out of the exercise. The original pullover machines had that short lat bar in front of you as the second phase of the exercise. Also a cam action if I remember right. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

As mentioned, i did see that cam shape used in one of their more recent lines. With or without it there are other good pullover machines available that are still very good.

[jpm101]

Most all the other pullover type machines are very good. As long as the elbows lead the movement. That is, resistance on the elbows. Main advantage of the original pullover machine was that three phased cam that followed the natural strength curve (from the weakest to the strongest) and made adjustment accordingly. Art Jones got that ideas from working with chains, at first, and the changing levels of strength during just about any exercise. In simple terms, just lifting a chain from the ground, more resistance is encountered from each chain link as it is raised up. Roughly following the natural strength pattern of the muscles. One of the reasons that chain training (and elastic band training) is used with some advanced PL'ing workout plans.

The only negative factor about Nautilus training (pullover, shoulder, hip/back, arm, leg machines, ab, etc) is that the strength gained, and it can be impressive, does not transfer back over to regular BB training. You may use huge weight on the bench/chest machine but going back to regular bench pressing you will find your not nearly as strong as before using the Nautilus equipment. You almost have to retrain the motor units to bench press properly. If you were BB rowing 260, did the pullover machine for  three month's (for example) chances would be that you would have a tough time rowing 220-230 for reps after.  Muscle size yes, transferring of strength back to regular free weight (hate that term) training, no. Probably partly due to the arms and other supporting pressing factors not brought into play when doing strictly Nautilus programs (motor units again). Combining both forms of training in one workout may be best if keeping BB strength matching. Good luck.

Side Bar: Is that brother in the pullover machine Mercury Morris of the old Dolphins?

[The Squadfather]

Most all the other pullover type machines are very good. As long as the elbows lead the movement. That is, resistance on the elbows. Main advantage of the original pullover machine was that three phased cam that followed the natural strength curve (from the weakest to the strongest) and made adjustment accordingly. Art Jones got that ideas from working with chains, at first, and the changing levels of strength during just about any exercise. In simple terms, just lifting a chain from the ground, more resistance is encountered from each chain link as it is raised up. Roughly following the natural strength pattern of the muscles. One of the reasons that chain training (and elastic band training) is used with some advanced PL'ing workout plans.

The only negative factor about Nautilus training (pullover, shoulder, hip/back, arm, leg machines, ab, etc) is that the strength gained, and it can be impressive, does not transfer back over to regular BB training. You may use huge weight on the bench/chest machine but going back to regular bench pressing you will find your not nearly as strong as before using the Nautilus equipment. You almost have to retrain the motor units to bench press properly. If you were BB rowing 260, did the pullover machine for  three month's (for example) chances would be that you would have a tough time rowing 220-230 for reps after.  Muscle size yes, transferring of strength back to regular free weight (hate that term) training, no. Probably partly due to the arms and other supporting pressing factors not brought into play when doing strictly Nautilus programs (motor units again). Combining both forms of training in one workout may be best if keeping BB strength matching. Good luck.

Side Bar: Is that brother in the pullover machine Mercury Morris of the old Dolphins?

that's Sergio Oliva, JPM.

[jpm101]

No, I mean the brother with the semi Afro and the Dolphin logo on the shirt. Know he was connected with Nautilus for awhile around DeLand, Fla. Watch a lot of his running films, kind of looks like the Man. Good Luck.

[jpm101]

My mistake. I thought there was another picture of a Nautilus machine with a brother on it, not the great Sergio. Unless it was deleted. I must be going through the change. Good Luck.

[ryu007]

Holy shit dude! I feel so freaking stupid, I have no idea what a pullover is! Can someone show me a link so I can see the proper form for it!

[trab]

Holy shit dude! I feel so freaking stupid, I have no idea what a pullover is! Can someone show me a link so I can see the proper form for it!

http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/exer.htm
Look under Pulling sect.

[ryu007]

http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/exer.htm
Look under Pulling sect.

I thought those pullover exercises were for chest? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.

[trab]

I thought those pullover exercises were for chest? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.

Both Lats and chest. That vid is not so great. I like them crossways on the bench w/ a deep arch.
Can also use a Stability ball. Can pause a heavy weight on the ball like a board press.
EZ curl bar is also a Fav.  Get a good stretch and you can focus on lats to. Feel the deep soreness/ delayed muscle soreness is best way to tell where ya's hittn. Then adjust the movements to fit your focus of attack.

[jpm101]

Actually the pullover (BB/DB) will hit the lats and triceps strongly and the pecs to a lesser degree. When you add the bent arm pullover & press , than it becomes a top chest, tricep and lat builder. I have use the pullover & press, as the only exercise,while doing GVT from a 6 to 8 week period with excellent results. Have also SS'ed  upright rows with the P&P with GVT. Excellent results again. Probably the upright row and P&P would be the only exercise combo that most men would require for upper body, when on a abbreviated program. Guy's pressed for time might also find this a good choice of exercise. These are easy to do at home also.

Might consider doing any form of the pullover (straight or bent arm) on a flat bench, with the legs drawn up. Of course that would be your own choice. Drawing the legs up reduces the influence of the ab's, if you want a full stretch on the lats and rib box. The Abs can limit the full stretch somewhat. Crossovers, curved or half moon benches do not allow this by the very nature of their design. Most people can handle quite a lot of weight after awhile, so they may require someone to hold the knees for support. Or fix a way so that the knees can brace the body when doing pullovers. 100bs+ for straight arm and 205lb+ for bent arm are well with-in the abilities of most trainee's after awhile. Of course much more with the advance men. Good luck.

[trab]

Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...

[pumpster]

Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...

Key and usually ignored. Throw out all the theories and stick with this.

[thewickedtruth]

Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...

Keep preaching man. Gotta find those exercises that hit the targeted area the best. What you say is probably some of the best advice you can anyone on get big.

[The Squadfather]

you can never tell from watching someone do a movement where they're feeling it, it may look totally wrong but if you're feeling it who cares.

[trab]

Key and usually ignored. Throw out all the theories and stick with this.

  My pecs were thick to start. But I could never isolate Ant. Delts. Looked unballanced.
a Million Incline Bench & DB front raise never did jack. That's the standard cure, right?
  I was NEVER able to isolate a good deep pain in that spot.

One day I got my 16' alumacraft stuck bad, had to press real hard on the bow, away from my Body, rocking it...
Next day- very sore right in the ant delts where I Never could hit.  Time to totally rethink it.

Over the yrs been able to find half-a-dozen moves that are similar.
Now,.. Yrs After I finaly built some mass there, the standard inclines (esp part ROM) are adding to it.
They are starting to get more prominent than my pecs, which is what I want.

Comercial gyms have a lot of bad points to them.

[pumpster]

  My pecs were thick to start. But I could never isolate Ant. Delts. Looked unballanced.
a Million Incline Bench & DB front raise never did jack. That's the standard cure, right?
  I was NEVER able to isolate a good deep pain in that spot.

One day I got my 16' alumacraft stuck bad, had to press real hard on the bow, away from my Body, rocking it...
Next day- very sore right in the ant delts where I Never could hit.  Time to totally rethink it.

Over the yrs been able to find half-a-dozen moves that are similar.
Now,.. Yrs After I finaly built some mass there, the standard inclines (esp part ROM) are adding to it.
They are starting to get more prominent than my pecs, which is what I want.

Comercial gyms have a lot of bad points to them.

Experiment. Try every variation.

[ryu007]

Ok, you guys are obviously WAY more advanced than I am. I like to just SS all my sets of back with 5 pull-ups (at the end of the day, adds up to a bunch!) perfect form all the way up and all the way down. Always leaves my lats sore next day. I just don't get the same feeling from pull-downs, I seem to feel it more in my bi's than in my back. Regardless of how much weight, reps, or thumb placement I use. I don't have a pullover machine at my gym, so I just do a lot of pull-ups, close-grip, regular grip, and super wide at the end. Mix in some BB bent over rows or seated rows. May sound crazy, but at the end of the day I've done 120 pull-ups! I definitely need to add some crazy thickness to my back though. Don't know why, but even after all those pull-ups and rows, I just don't see a big back like I thought I would. I'm always open for suggestions.

[pumpster]

Ok, you guys are obviously WAY more advanced than I am. I like to just SS all my sets of back with 5 pull-ups (at the end of the day, adds up to a bunch!) perfect form all the way up and all the way down. Always leaves my lats sore next day. I just don't get the same feeling from pull-downs, I seem to feel it more in my bi's than in my back. Regardless of how much weight, reps, or thumb placement I use. I don't have a pullover machine at my gym, so I just do a lot of pull-ups, close-grip, regular grip, and super wide at the end. Mix in some BB bent over rows or seated rows. May sound crazy, but at the end of the day I've done 120 pull-ups! I definitely need to add some crazy thickness to my back though. Don't know why, but even after all those pull-ups and rows, I just don't see a big back like I thought I would. I'm always open for suggestions.

If it's working for you in terms of feelin it in the right areas, you're already most of the way there. Now try tweakin it around what already works, see if that furthers the effect:

-Lots of reps already, so start adding more weight and reduce reps.

-Sometimes try compound supersets instead: 2 different consecutive exercises for the same muscle.

-The rows should be just as effective as chins. Try different versions of rows like t-bar or hammer rows or 1-arm DB rows, etc. until you have something as effective as the chins.

-Add some pullovers at least some of the time. You can either add them to the existing back work or substitute them for one of the other two some of the time.

-Think about the diet; if your workouts are already effective it might be a lack of additional nutrients that stops you from increasing size. Extra's needed for that.

[ryu007]

If it's working for you in terms of feelin it in the right areas, you're already most of the way there. Now try tweakin it around what already works, see if that furthers the effect:

-Lots of reps already, so start adding more weight and reduce reps.

-Sometimes try compound supersets instead: 2 different consecutive exercises for the same muscle.

-The rows should be just as effective as chins. Try different versions of rows like t-bar or hammer rows or 1-arm DB rows, etc. until you have something as effective as the chins.

-Add some pullovers at least some of the time. You can either add them to the existing back work or substitute them for one of the other two some of the time.

-Think about the diet; if your workouts are already effective it might be a lack of additional nutrients that stops you from increasing size. Extra's needed for that.

Thanks for the advice. I just did back today, so I'll make sure I implement those tactics next time. Just a couple of quick questions though:
What is a hammer row? (I know, it's sounds stupid, but I have no idea what that is!)
I don't have a t-bar row machine in my gym, what's a substitute?
Also, no pull-over machine either (my gym sucks, but I'm military, gotta work with what I got!) do the pullovers on the bench work as well?
Working on the diet, trying to eat more meat and just started on some creatine this week. Let you know how it works out in a couple of weeks.

[pumpster]

-Use ab straps as an alternative to pullover machines: read through this thread.

-Hammer is just a generic term, a particular well-known brand of leverage machine rows as shown here.

-T-bar attachments that will fit an olypic bar cost almost nothing, ask the gym about getting one, as shown below. And/or try this lying version of BB rows, that i find better than standard BB rows.