JOJ now on team Milos !

[Vince B]

Ah, debating hypertrophy when the basic concepts are not defined clearly and precisely.

By speed I meant between sets. Fast is having very little rest. Slow is having up to 3 minutes between sets. Sergio and Larry diminished the rest between sets. Sergio improved to where he was lifting heavy weights for all sets in a row. Few trainers recommend fast training but some suggest fast reps might trigger different fibers. Repetition speed doesn't seem to be critical for hypertrophy.

100% intensity is many things. To Jones it was lifting 100% of what you are capable of lifting for 1 rep. Clearly this is not bodybuilding but a strength concept. There seems to be a threshold above which hypertrophy occurs. What advanced bodybuilders need to find out is how to sustain growth. If the growth can be sustained at a rapid rate then that is the ultimate method as long as it is safe. What this means is that as long as you train at something over 75 or 80 percent of your 1 rep capacity you should trigger hypertrophy. There doesn't seem to be any advantage to train closer to 100% intensity. When you select a resistance that you can do for 15 reps your intensity will be around the 75% level and that is just fine. The extra reps will generate more pump and this helps to avoid injuries and poor form.

I think we know that training with maximum intensity, a la Jones, Mentzer and Darden is unlikely to generate maximum growth unless combined with sufficient volume as demonstrated with Oliva. The idea that brief sprinting training leads to larger and larger muscles is false. I haven't seen one person achieve maximum size with brief training. Not one. Conclusion? Something is missing. Therefore, HIT is false and insufficient to cause maximum hypertrophy.

Milos can present his own theories. He doesn't seem to care to debate everyone here and that is his choice. He is showing us with images.

DOMS is a feedback phenomenon that can help one know when he is growing rapidly. Not all DOMS indicates rapid growth but rapid growth will probably generate DOMS. The trick is to get sore using heavy weights and lots of maximum sets with the right exercises. Whether you need to do the sets with little rest between them is not established. I doubt time between sets is critical. If you can sustain using the same heavy resistance you will need longer rests between sets and the two methods might overlap re effectiveness. Resting more might take a bit longer and not be so hard on the total systems of the body. In other words, lazy guys don't have to kill themselves and can still grow rapidly. There has to be some equivalent methods that end up doing the same thing.

[D.L. 5]

By speed I meant between sets. Fast is having very little rest.

I think we know that training with maximum intensity, a la Jones, Mentzer and Darden is unlikely to generate maximum growth unless combined with sufficient volume as demonstrated with Oliva.

VINCE IN REGARDS TO SPEED - mentzer says the quicker the workout is over the better, the less time spent between sets the better.

in regards to volume - do u think something like dorian yate's approach bridges the gap? doing only one set of exercise for only several exercises in a workout is the best?

and thirdly - ur view on rest between workout?

[D.L. 5]

Milos can present his own theories. He doesn't seem to care to debate everyone here and that is his choice.

milos, should reply and give us his opinion regarding mentzer.

YOU ARE 'THE MIND'....LET THE MIND SPEAK MILOS!

[Vince B]

I believe Mike was wrong about exercise briefness. The fowl in the experiment had weights on one wing and the resistance was increased every so often to see what happened. Antonio got the best result with some birds growing one muscle 300% in one month. Imagine is even a third of that result was possible in humans?  Bryan on HST believes 8 hours training a day might generate maximum hypertrophy in humans. 4 hours might generate over 50% of what is possible.

Mike was convinced his theory was correct. There was supposed to be only one true theory and he felt he and Jones had figured it out. They were both mistaken. Brief training and rapid training with short rests is not optimum training as far as I can tell. That is why Milos requires his students to do lots of sets. The requirement for hypertrophy is a physical requirement and not something one speculates about. Experience can help us find the specific requirement for us. Whether that is the same for everyone is unknown. However, most people have similar systems so there should be more similarity than differences.

I found the trick is to have maximum resistance sets done over and over and over and over. Up to 10 or more maximum sets. If you do 15 reps you will go down to about 10 reps after 5 sets if you are supersetting arms or another exercise. Eg., triceps extensions with lat pulldowns. If you reduce the resistance you can reduce the time between sets. I recommend keeping the resistance constant and increasing the time between sets instead. Lots of maximum sets will cause growth and you will experience DOMS for several days. You train that muscle before the soreness goes away. That is when to train again. In practice this will be every 3rd or 4th day. It may be possible to train more frequently but it is unknown if you will grow faster.

[D.L. 5]

interesting vince.

[Vince B]

What happens with most guys who bodybuild is that they don't know if they are growing or not. They just assume if they keep lifting they will get bigger. Well, most get fair results and then stop growing. The science tells us the body tries to conserve resources so will not hypertrophy unless it absolutely has to. Doing the same thing over and over will not generate hypertrophy if you rest too long between training days. What seems to happen is the muscle has a RBE or repeated bout effect. Therefore it is imperative that you avoid full adaptation and try to keep the muscle in a state of growth. In other words, keep the muscle sore. Train the target muscle for about a month and see what happens. Don't worry about training every muscle. You might be surprised at how the other muscles keep their size when you are doing hypertrophy training. I doubt you can make all the muscles grow at the same time. So select say arms and thighs and see what happens. If you want to just train arms to see how you go that is fine, too. Once you know how to make muscles grow rapidly your training will never be the same.

Some exercises do not cause further growth. Eg., triceps pressdowns. You need to keep the muscle sore. If what you are doing is not causing soreness you have to do something else. What should be a simple process can soon be very complex.

[BEAST 8692]

Ah, debating hypertrophy when the basic concepts are not defined clearly and precisely.

By speed I meant between sets. Fast is having very little rest. Slow is having up to 3 minutes between sets. Sergio and Larry diminished the rest between sets. Sergio improved to where he was lifting heavy weights for all sets in a row. Few trainers recommend fast training but some suggest fast reps might trigger different fibers. Repetition speed doesn't seem to be critical for hypertrophy.

100% intensity is many things. To Jones it was lifting 100% of what you are capable of lifting for 1 rep. Clearly this is not bodybuilding but a strength concept. There seems to be a threshold above which hypertrophy occurs. What advanced bodybuilders need to find out is how to sustain growth. If the growth can be sustained at a rapid rate then that is the ultimate method as long as it is safe. What this means is that as long as you train at something over 75 or 80 percent of your 1 rep capacity you should trigger hypertrophy. There doesn't seem to be any advantage to train closer to 100% intensity. When you select a resistance that you can do for 15 reps your intensity will be around the 75% level and that is just fine. The extra reps will generate more pump and this helps to avoid injuries and poor form.

I think we know that training with maximum intensity, a la Jones, Mentzer and Darden is unlikely to generate maximum growth unless combined with sufficient volume as demonstrated with Oliva. The idea that brief sprinting training leads to larger and larger muscles is false. I haven't seen one person achieve maximum size with brief training. Not one. Conclusion? Something is missing. Therefore, HIT is false and insufficient to cause maximum hypertrophy.

Milos can present his own theories. He doesn't seem to care to debate everyone here and that is his choice. He is showing us with images.

DOMS is a feedback phenomenon that can help one know when he is growing rapidly. Not all DOMS indicates rapid growth but rapid growth will probably generate DOMS. The trick is to get sore using heavy weights and lots of maximum sets with the right exercises. Whether you need to do the sets with little rest between them is not established. I doubt time between sets is critical. If you can sustain using the same heavy resistance you will need longer rests between sets and the two methods might overlap re effectiveness. Resting more might take a bit longer and not be so hard on the total systems of the body. In other words, lazy guys don't have to kill themselves and can still grow rapidly. There has to be some equivalent methods that end up doing the same thing.

vince, this was not what arthur jones advocated at all. you should learn your subject matter before your lecture begins and maybe you'll have more credibility.

i would suggest that the thickness garraeth has is directly attributal to his previous heavy lifting along with aas as is with joj.

what garraeth has accomplished with milos is much the same muscle mass with significantly less fat. a very good result and a win for team milos.

DL.5 Milos is probably not answering your questions because he is still crying over the beating he took on his supplement.

unfortunately for people like milos, it helps to have a thick skin around here and massive egos like milos tend to melt easily.

joj has been somewhat haphazard in his approach to contests in the past and he has largely got by on his heavy training caused density and thickness, which is very very handy when dieting down.

milos is obviously going to get joj's drugs organised and will help fill in the gaps physique wise. i don't think milos can do much damage to joj's thickness in 8 weeks and the extra capillary growth from all that blood might fill him up a bit. then again, milos might give him too much slin and gh and thus do a dennis james on him.

it will be interesting to see the results come olympia time and you can bet milos will be keenly aware of the affect that another disastrous result will have on his credibility.

i hope milos gets this one right.

[Vince B]

I have a fair grasp of what Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer advocated. Most of us tried those methods decades ago and had mixed results. The Sergio-Jones leg routine was just too difficult and required free adjacent equipment to execute.

It is my belief that HIT is false as a theory. It does not explain maximum hypertrophy and makes a lame attempt to explain lack of growth from hard training.

My method explains all growth and non growth. Training at near maximum intensity is both unnecessary and usually dangerous.

After Arthur Jones exercise theory changed forever and no one can train without doing lots of things he advocated.

[D.L. 5]

DL.5 Milos is probably not answering your questions because he is still crying over the beating he took on his supplement.

cool. i don't think he should be mad at me, i have made some jokes about the price of his supplement, but i have given him major respect for his career and ideas.

we will see over the coming days if he is in fact pissed off.

and regardless of what i said, i will be buying koloseum gear to work out in. so this should counter-act my bad humour

[EL Mariachi]

he is improved a lot, if he can bring up the legs, he would be unstoppable, upper body one of the best in the biz right now.

[LatsMcGee]

Garraeth your tris needs "a lot" of work.

So do his bologna tits.  Lay off the decline work for a while sport.  Other than that keep up the good work.

[slaveboy1980]

1. vince shut the fuck up. you have never been able to tell us what "your" theory of training is, no practical advice. just bs. besides, training is not complicated just pick a simple 4-5 day split and work it...
2. "dean" needs to squat and leg press gh15 style (12-15 reps moderate weight)
3. no more synthol in arms
4. mentzer is all bullshit. i laugh at the mofos brainswashed by his crap. mentzer was always raving about arnolds 20 sets to failure, so he said lets do one set to failure instead.(typical bodybuilders mindset, always thinking in extremes)) but you know what? there is no fucking need to go to failure on every set.. by not going to failure on every set you will acheive supreme loading of the muscle (=growth) because you will be able to work the muscle with more volume (sets).

[Monster_Everything]

hahaha vince writes alot, you would think that he is mr. olympia ....brutal not practicing what you preach

[bigdumbbell]

he's starting to look HOT!   

[SteelePegasus]

hahaha vince writes alot, you would think that he is mr. olympia ....brutal not practicing what you preach

so you are saying that Tiger Wood's golf coach should be best player in the world? that makes no sense
same goes for any athletic involved activity?

[slaveboy1980]

hahaha vince writes alot, you would think that he is mr. olympia ....brutal not practicing what you preach

exactly, i havent even read what vince has posted in this thread as i read his training theory bs before. also some people dont understand that mentzers (a good bodybuilder for sure) "theories" are just crap. german scientists proved already back in the 60s how important loading is for muscle growth (measured as amount of reps done in a workout). i could totally crush mentzers theories, but all im gonna say that doing 1-2 sets per muscle group will make you detrained !

the only time low volume should be used is if you have been doing something called planned overreaching which basically is overtraining your body on purpose and then after weeks of that drastically lowering volume in order to give the body heal and overcompensate.

ohh also if you been one of those stupid fucks that always go to failure on everything ("no pain" bs)..then of course lowering volume will give your body a chane to recouperate. but a better solution is to not go to total failure on every set and thereby allowing you to use higher volume. alot better for muscle growth.

[Parker]

hidetada looks like a cartoon compared to JOJ in this comparison

Very few BBers past and present have a chest (or traps) compared to JOJ. Hidetada looks like he needs JOJ chest training manual---. The pic of JOJ using a armblaster and his chest overhanging it is sick.

But in reality both bbers would get lost in a mid 90's line-up, the only thing that would stand out is JOJ chest and lack of legs and Hide's lack of shape.

[bigdumbbell]

Very few BBers past and present have a chest (or traps) compared to JOJ. Hidetada looks like he needs JOJ chest training manual---. The pic of JOJ using a armblaster and his chest overhanging it is sick.

But in reality both bbers would get lost in a mid 90's line-up, the only thing that would stand out is JOJ chest and lack of legs and Hide's lack of shape.

agreed & bump

[SteelePegasus]

exactly, i havent even read what vince has posted in this thread as i read his training theory bs before. also some people dont understand that mentzers (a good bodybuilder for sure) "theories" are just crap. german scientists proved already back in the 60s how important loading is for muscle growth (measured as amount of reps done in a workout). i could totally crush mentzers theories, but all im gonna say that doing 1-2 sets per muscle group will make you detrained !

the only time low volume should be used is if you have been doing something called planned overreaching which basically is overtraining your body on purpose and then after weeks of that drastically lowering volume in order to give the body heal and overcompensate.

ohh also if you been one of those stupid fucks that always go to failure on everything ("no pain" bs)..then of course lowering volume will give your body a chane to recouperate. but a better solution is to not go to total failure on every set and thereby allowing you to use higher volume. alot better for muscle growth.

interesting..do you have a practical application of your theory to demonstrate to us?

I am guessing no

[Vince B]

Slaveboy1980.  It is always refreshing and a privilege to hear the opinion of a real expert.

[phyxsius]

bloody hell, Vince B is still alive

[BEAST 8692]

cool. i don't think he should be mad at me, i have made some jokes about the price of his supplement, but i have given him major respect for his career and ideas.

we will see over the coming days if he is in fact pissed off.

and regardless of what i said, i will be buying koloseum gear to work out in. so this should counter-act my bad humour

lol

ffs D.L. 5 don't be ridiculous. do you really think milos gives a flying fuck about you?

he doesn't come to this board to get his arse kissed. he can do that on his own board.

then again, he doesn't come here for intelligent debate either. who does?

he comes here for the same reason getbig beats every other board in the ratings game, to read what people really think (specifically about him). that's why he can't resist posting, not to help anyone (let's face it, in over 2500 posts, how many questions has he actually answered) but because he can't stand reading an opinion that is less than perfect about himself.

you see, like a lot of bbers (let's be honest - 90% at least) milos is vain. so much so that having his arse kissed on his board is not enough. he can't stand the thought that someone somewhere might not think he's actually...'the mind'.

milos knows very well that his supplements are bullshit, otherwise he would have provided evidence of his claims by now. at $210 u.s an order is it too much for a potential customer to ask for some evidence to prove ONE of the claims that he himself made on the advertisement?

apparently so, so i offered him $1000.00 pay pal and he asked me to hit him with my best shot.

of course i am far too respectful of the great 'mind', milos sarcev to do this ie ask him to prove ALL of his claims so i merely asked him to prove ONE of his claims for $1000.00.

...but alas, something that apparently is so easy to explain that his 9 year old daughter could do it somehow escapes the great 'mind', milos sarcev and he is incapable of collecting the easiest $1000.00 he's ever made in his life.

easiest IF he was not actually deceiving his potential client base that is.








 

[CRIS]

I have a fair grasp of what Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer advocated. Most of us tried those methods decades ago and had mixed results. The Sergio-Jones leg routine was just too difficult and required free adjacent equipment to execute.

It is my belief that HIT is false as a theory. It does not explain maximum hypertrophy and makes a lame attempt to explain lack of growth from hard training.

My method explains all growth and non growth. Training at near maximum intensity is both unnecessary and usually dangerous.

After Arthur Jones exercise theory changed forever and no one can train without doing lots of things he advocated.

Vince, i have the pleasure to say that, without knowing it, i have been backing up your theories almost to a 'T'!

Since the beginning of the year,and thanks to a thread started here on getbig.com by Serge Nubret himself, he posted his training program and I decided to follow it for change of pace, but applied with a personal twist. My 'twist' is exactly, and found by accident, what Vince explains here: whilst him and Serge advocate up to 8 sets per exercise (12 or 15 in Vince's case) i applied 6 sets per exercise, but only one muscle group per session (different from what Serge advocates) and all six sets are done UNTIL FAILURE, not using forced reps, rest pauses, super sets or any of these bullshit, not counting 2 warm up sets for every exercise. All of those 6 sets are maximum sets, done with 1 minute of rest between them (like Serge preached and contrary to Vince) and always with the goal of seeking DOMS on subsequent days.
Vince, believe me: IT WORKS!!! i'M BETTER THAN EVER!!

[Van_Bilderass]

1. vince shut the fuck up. you have never been able to tell us what "your" theory of training is, no practical advice. just bs. besides, training is not complicated just pick a simple 4-5 day split and work it...

Vince gets more and more confused by the year. Decades of trying to "figure it out" and where is he? Nowhere! He ignores all the research there is and keeps thinking he will eventually stumble on the "master theory" that causes uninterrupted growth for everyone. Vince is more confused than a psychotic Mentzer was just prior to his death.

[BEAST 8692]

Vince gets more and more confused by the year. Decades of trying to "figure it out" and where is he? Nowhere! He ignores all the research there is and keeps thinking he will eventually stumble on the "master theory" that causes uninterrupted growth for everyone. Vince is more confused than a psychotic Mentzer was just prior to his death.

you're not wrong

he misrepresents arthur jones and thinks doms is the indicator of hypertrophy.

so if i go on a 15 mile run and get doms (as i would at this point) does that mean i've stimulated hypertrophy?

what a load of bs.