Diet advice needed

[Santa Claus]

It's my understanding that you are either in ketosis, or you are not in ketosis.  If you're shooting for a ketoginic diet, fats have to be high since they're your energy source.  Di Pasquale's "Anabolic Diet" recommends a ratio of 60f-35p-5c through the week, with a 36-48 hour carb up on the weekend.  I haven't tried it myself.

If you're not burning fats for fuel, then reducing carbs is just insulin control IMHO, which you're doing fairly effectively already with low GI choices Santa.  The worst approach would be to hover at the edge of ketosis with a daily carb intake high enough to keep you out, but low enough to make you foggy and tired.  If you're going to go low carb, then go all the way and suffer through the changeover, but I wouldn't choose the semi-low carb, or "reduced carb" approach myself.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with your current approach (in the original post).  If you're eating a more-or-less Zone Diet 40c-30p-30f (incl. EFAs), just address your total calories.  Reduce them gradually (reassess as metabolism adjusts) and increase interval cardio.  If you border on overtraining as a bulker, accept that you're going to have to reduce the workload in the gym when in calorie debt, perhaps consolodate your split to allow more days without weights.  If you're natural, don't do anything extreme.

My $.02.

This makes a lot of sense. I am now taking in between 2000 and 2200 cals a day. I sense that I now am on the border of how little amount of carbs I can take in and still function properly. I am not aiming for ketosis at all, as I had a short period earlier on where I tried that, and It didn't do it for me. I am currently doing a 45p-25f-30c. How long will it take before I can expect to see changes anyway? I don't feel as full and bloated as I used to, just that is a good enough reason to continue, but nonetheless? I intend to stay with the plan all the way this time.

[Bobby]

Tapeworm what do you think is the better cutting diet: Ketosis or just calorie restriction ?
I am currently on 120g carbs training days(40g of those are dextrose) 80g non training-day.

hover at the edge of ketosis with a daily carb intake high enough to keep you out, but low enough to make you foggy and tired.

What is the edge, 80g?

Santa Claus, you should cut out the cottage cheese. Try to eliminate dairy and gluten out of your diet.

[Santa Claus]

Santa Claus, you should cut out the cottage cheese. Try to eliminate dairy and gluten out of your diet.

What is the reason for this?

[Tapeworm]

This makes a lot of sense. I am now taking in between 2000 and 2200 cals a day. I sense that I now am on the border of how little amount of carbs I can take in and still function properly. I am not aiming for ketosis at all, as I had a short period earlier on where I tried that, and It didn't do it for me. I am currently doing a 45p-25f-30c. How long will it take before I can expect to see changes anyway? I don't feel as full and bloated as I used to, just that is a good enough reason to continue, but nonetheless? I intend to stay with the plan all the way this time.

Sorry man, I don't know how long it will take!  Way too many variables - metabolism, caloric expenditure, types of cals (simple/complex/fiberous carbs, whey/caesin/egg/meat proteins), hormonal profile, age, genetic disposition, etc...  I'd aim for a pound/week, no more than 2.

I'm sure you know the drill already: Frequent small meals with protein, lots of water, no booze, plenty of sleep, interval cardio, yadda yadda.  Most important thing imo is listen to your body, which you're doing.  I also reckon the faster you lose the fat, the more muscle it will cost you, so don't rush it - you busted your ass for those gains.

Some guys like to cycle calories to keep the metabolism guessing and provide nutrition when you need it, like after leg day, and have less on cardio days.  Nothing extreme, around 500 cals (like 1900-2400).

Tapeworm what do you think is the better cutting diet: Ketosis or just calorie restriction ?
I am currently on 120g carbs training days(40g of those are dextrose) 80g non training-day.

What is the edge, 80g?

Santa Claus, you should cut out the cottage cheese. Try to eliminate dairy and gluten out of your diet.

I thought the dairy thing was for guys pushing for those last couple % points.  I like caesin protein before bed.

For me, it's been a calorie restricted balanced diet.  My energy doesn't suffer which means I get to keep working out pretty hard, and it doesn't shock my system.  Couldn't say at what level of carbs the body will start making keytones.  Again, too many variables.  You could buy some keto sticks to piss on tho as you progressively drop your carbs, and that will give you an idea for yourself anyway.

I think ketogenic diets are effective for the people they're effective for, but I don't happen to be one (or at least I'm not one who has done it 'properly' which is what those who swear by it will say, and maybe they're right).  I'm not 7% shooting for 5%, I don't want to shock my system, and calorie debt=fat loss for me, so I choose not to eliminate carbs.

Carb timing is important tho.  Santa - maybe try an AM workout for a few weeks if your schedule allows it and see if you notice any difference.  And hey man, don't think I'm speaking with any authority in this thread!  This is just the stuff that has worked for me, it may not work for you!  I can get lean, but never been in competition shape in my life!  Lotsa guys seem to speak like they've got all the knowledge that matters (candidate, I'm looking in your direction).  All we've got for sure is our historical data.

[Tapeworm]

Proof that I'm a kook: I don't believe in stimulants.

Lay off the caffine and other stimulants.  Too hard on the adrenals.

[Santa Claus]

Thanks for the advice. Makes a lot of sense, actually. I think I can sense you saying between the lines that over-complicating things when not trying to get in competition shape is not the way to go, which is my line of thought exactly. As I understand, those last few pounds when trying to get contest ready calls for the real science and "extreme" measures, which I don't need. I'll just continue what I am doing for a few weeks more, only maybe with minor changes, and see if I need a more "drastic" approach if it doesn't work. I have no idea what BF% I am at now, so I have no idea how many calories I am supposed to be getting, but it can't be that far off.

[coltrane]

way too low on carbs....up your carbs from complex sources, but hit up some cardio first thing in the am, w glutamine pre and post cardio. 

carbs should be up towards 200 a day.....your metabolism is gonna die.  You don't and shouldn't go so low

[Santa Claus]

Hm, okay. Now I am getting confused. Not that I have a problem with eating more carbs, but the cardio bit is a little more difficult, as I start work pretty early. If I gotta get up even earlier to do cardio, I will have to get up in the middle of the night.

You mean that 200 grams is appropriate for someone my weight, without knowing my BF%?

I understand that there are almost as many opinions about what is right as there are people around here, but it's starting to be difficult.

[Santa Claus]

And can you guys suggest any good fat sources?

[Tapeworm]

I like salmon, bottled fish oil, and Udo's oil for EFAs.  Salmon's gotta be cheap in Norway, eh?  You guys get any whale up there?  What's that like?

Walnuts make a good snack for monos.  Olive oil is good too (extra virgin).

Not sure what all the fats are in avocados, but I just like 'em.  Steak and other red meats are full of saturated fats, but it's a good food anyway imo.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/efa.htm

Not sure how much of this is science, and how much is gym science, but there's a good chart at the end showing O3:O6 in various foods.

[Santa Claus]

Thanks, man. The salmon here in Norway isn't all that cheap, really. Nothing is cheap in Norway. Actually, whale meat is not that expensive, and I bet it's really good for bodybuilding purposes. It doesn't resemble any other meat I have tasted, neither fish or large game. It's not all that tasty, but you know it's the real shit when you eat it. And it's not fat at all, but tough and very dense.

That being said, they have fat free red meat on sale all the time at a store near here, where I usually buy a couple of pounds at a time. I can get somewhat cheap frozen salmon, maybe that's a good idea.

[Bobby]

What is the reason for this?

That advice was given to me in the past. The body has a hard time to break it down and you will look watery. Holding water makes you look alot higher in BF than you actually are, you can look flat even at 5-6%

A good fat source is egg yolks, so just eat your eggs whole. Olive oil is good too.

way too low on carbs....up your carbs from complex sources, but hit up some cardio first thing in the am, w glutamine pre and post cardio. 

carbs should be up towards 200 a day.....your metabolism is gonna die.  You don't and shouldn't go so low

What is most important is that it is complex carbs like you say, it doesn't work with cookies, i have tried (i was a little tired of dieting and went on a binge on my high days, i gained a couple lbs of water. Back on diet now to shed the rest)

Wow that is high, 200 really? maybe it works with enough cardio though.

[coltrane]

maybe even lowered to 170 or so.....you cut carbs down too far and you lose a bit of muscle mass.....keep the carbs a bit higher, crank up the cardio and you'll be good to go.....at some bcaa's before and after lifting and cardio time do protect the muscle

[Bobby]

Yeah i have went low in the past and it does make your muscles kinda flat. This diet i have been on now i have gone from 200lbs to 175lbs and i have been eating 160g/120g carbs train/notraining and 1g protein pr lbs bodyweight and it's been my best diet yet, it seems like i have actually gained muscle. I have not lost any at all. I have not done that much cardio either, but i started doing more this week so i will get rid of those last lbs now and look tight.

[coltrane]

Yeah i have went low in the past and it does make your muscles kinda flat. This diet i have been on now i have gone from 200lbs to 175lbs and i have been eating 160g/120g carbs train/notraining and 1g protein pr lbs bodyweight and it's been my best diet yet, it seems like i have actually gained muscle. I have not lost any at all. I have not done that much cardio either, but i started doing more this week so i will get rid of those last lbs now and look tight.

sounds about right....too low on the carbs and your body will go into panic mode and try it's hardest to conserve all fat (slow metab).....remember---fat burns in the furnace of carbohydrate......i.e. you need carbs to burn fat.  When you find that cutoff bt too many/too little carbs in your diet, this is where you will look your best and feel great too......

make sure you are eating lots of GREEN veggies for numerous reasons.....one being fiber and two for keeping a proper pH balance.  And, of course, cause they are full of nutrients you need.....

[candidate2025]

wow. i didnt know anyof this stuff guys.

i was under the impression that proein boosted your metabolism.

i stand corrected.
santa claus; listen to these guys.

[Santa Claus]

Sounds sweet. I am actually going for 150 grams of carbs as of now. Yesterday I had my best chest/shoulder workout ever, and I have lost four or five pounds in the last three weeks. That's why I upped the carbs from 100 to 150, coz that loss sounds fast enough and then some. I will try and cut the dairy products, except for the small amount of skimmed milk I pour on my oatmeal. Can't eat oatmeal without that.

And it's good to hear that I can eat the eggs whole. Guess I'll have to eat more tuna now that the cottage cheese is out. Either way, I am on my way, and it's not that hard, actually. Feeling confident. Thanks for the pointers so far, guys.

[Princess L]

sounds about right....too low on the carbs and your body will go into panic mode and try it's hardest to conserve all fat (slow metab).....remember---fat burns in the furnace of carbohydrate......i.e. you need carbs to burn fat.  When you find that cutoff bt too many/too little carbs in your diet, this is where you will look your best and feel great too......

make sure you are eating lots of GREEN veggies for numerous reasons.....one being fiber and two for keeping a proper pH balance.  And, of course, cause they are full of nutrients you need.....

Someone's been reading Sports & Exercise Nutrition 101 

[Bobby]

I will try and cut the dairy products, except for the small amount of skimmed milk I pour on my oatmeal. Can't eat oatmeal without that.

I used to think that too. Do it like this, put water in the oatmeal and stir it around, the water should cover all the oatmeal but not like soup (i take 65g oats and 2.5dl water) put in microwave for 1.30 min then put lots of cinnamon on it. The oatmeal should be quite soft and good to eat without milk. I used to have it in the microwave for like 4 min and it was rockhard, then you really needed milk.

make sure you are eating lots of GREEN veggies for numerous reasons.....one being fiber and two for keeping a proper pH balance.  And, of course, cause they are full of nutrients you need.....

I always forget to eat veggies, i get some here and there but i'm never consistent with it.

[coltrane]

Someone's been reading Sports & Exercise Nutrition 101 

is that a book?  i just read too many mags and ask too many question of competitive bodybuilders i know...not to mention good ol' trial and error for the past 16 years.

[Santa Claus]

Maybe I'll try that oatmeal thing. I have considered the idea before, but it just seems so...wrong. A worse problem is replacing the cottage cheese. I am going for some chicken today, but that's extremely expensive here, so I am gonna need a more accessible solution eventually.

[coltrane]

for chicken, i've been eating tenderloins.....they just seem a little easier to get down than the breasts for some reason i can't figure out.  Anyway, you can get a large bag of frozen ones at the grocery for roughly 6 bucks...and there is like 20 -25 per page....good deal

[Bobby]

Maybe I'll try that oatmeal thing. I have considered the idea before, but it just seems so...wrong. A worse problem is replacing the cottage cheese. I am going for some chicken today, but that's extremely expensive here, so I am gonna need a more accessible solution eventually.

I get my protein from ham, whole eggs, whey protein, chicken, cod, red meat/steak, tuna.

Cod or a similiar fish should be cheap where you live no?

[Santa Claus]

Yeah, I can always buy a block of frozen cod, that is probably cheap. It needs to be boiled though, which is a pain. I guess I can always boil the whole thing, and save it in the fridge for later. I hate preparing food. That's what makes it so sweet with eggs, tuna and oatmeal. I just bought eight cans of tuna today, so I'll have enough for a few days. Chicken is pretty easy to prepare, but it takes quite a while. I try to make the diet as little work as possible, making it easy to manage. I can stand eating boring food all day, it's the preparation that gets me in the end. Well, I have never tried a serious diet before now, and it will be successful. Guaranteed.

On another note, I stepped on the scale today, and it turns out that I am down from 195 to 190 pounds. Those numbers are about three weeks apart. Surely, some initial water weight and such is included there, but I am satisfied so far nonetheless. My strength has also gone up, which is probably just a fluke. I don't see a major difference yet of course, but I need to start using a belt now, which is a good sign.

[Princess L]

I am actually going for 150 grams of carbs as of now.

~150-175 is a good amount

is that a book?  i just read too many mags and ask too many question of competitive bodybuilders i know...not to mention good ol' trial and error for the past 16 years.

It's a text book