Attitudes Toward the Bible

[OzmO]

WOW!  OzmO, you are so righteous.  Jews and Christians can only dream of being as righteous as OzmO.  The God of the Bible could only dream of being as righteous and as wise in warfare as OzmO.   

So i don't think it's right to kill children and you are calling a righteous as if that's a bad thing?

Oh brother...    Your sarcasm is fun to read loco but it doesn't  separate you from the fact that God order the death of children.



YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS


Is it a Christian thing to kill children loco? 

What a contradiction.  This are Christians?  They must not know the Bible and they must not know anything about Jesus Christ.  A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ constantly quoted, taught, and upheld the Old Testament as the Word of God and as The Truth.

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: " 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?

John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

Luke 24:32
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ?

Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

John 10:35
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

Just like I've maintained in all these debates:   the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.

[loco]

However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice

OzmO, "because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion", you support abortion.  You are supporting the slaughter of babies in this one case.  You are saying that in this case, and in this case only, it is justified. 

If not, then why are you pro-choice?  Why are you not defending the rights of the unborn baby, who is defenseless and is not being allowed to choose?

Whether or not you believe in the Bible, you are being inconsistent and hypocritical.

[columbusdude82]

Loco, who said that a zygote is a "child"? If God thinks zygotes are "children," or "fully human," why does Mother Nature kill off so many of them, often before the mother realizes they are there?

And if a zygote implants itself outside the uterus (or some other big flaw) in a manner such that continued pregnancy will endanger the mother's life, why can't pregnancy be terminated? Would you rather see a mother of 3 die because of her fourth pregnancy, or terminate the fatal fourth pregnancy and let her live to take care of her children and maybe have some more?

[OzmO]

OzmO, "because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion", you support abortion.  You are supporting the slaughter of babies in this one case.  You are saying that in this case, and in this case only, it is justified. 

If not, then why are you pro-choice?  Why are you not defending the rights of the unborn baby, who is defenseless and is not being allowed to choose?

Whether or not you believe in the Bible, you are being inconsistent and hypocritical.

No i do not support abortion, i support the right for a mother to choose and if she chooses to murder her child i believe it's a sin and wrong.  Making abortion legal or not has nothing to do with the choices she makes.  She will choose regardless of the law.

It's like this loco:

Is it better for people to do the "right" thing becuase it's the law or is it better for people to do the right thing becuase they choose to do so?

[OzmO]

And anyways loco, what does my stance on abortion have to do with the slaughter of a nation of children on allegedly "gods" orders?


Were they all unwanted pregnancies?   

YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS THAT GOD IN THE OT ORDERED THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CHILDREN

[loco]

And anyways loco, what does my stance on abortion have to do with the slaughter of a nation of children on allegedly "gods" orders?


Were they all unwanted pregnancies?   

YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS THAT GOD IN THE OT ORDERED THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CHILDREN

Nothing.  It's just that God's orders to destroy certain wicked nations(yes, including their babies) has been discussed for decades.  By the end of the long discussions, once people know and understand all the facts about these nations and about conditions in those ancient times, they all agree that punishing the Amalekites in the way depicted in the Bible was justified in order to end the 300 or so year threat....EXCEPT for the killing of their babies.  It all comes down to the babies.  And they all, just like you, come to the conclusion that the only other thing left to do was to have Israel adopt all those babies. 

So, I just find it ironic that people believe that Israel should have adopted all those babies, in a time when Israel did not have the money, the food, the infrastructure, and the means in general to do so.  They already had enough babies, children, elderly, sick and crippled of their own to take care of.  Adoption would have meant the slow, painful death of not only the adopted babies of Israel's enemies, but also of Israel's babies and eventually all of Israel.  Those were harsh times and Israel did not have the means to bear the burden.

The irony is that in today's world, developed countries do have the money, the food, the infrastructure and the means in general to adopt unwanted babies.  Yet, to many pregnant women today, and to the men who support abortion, adoption is not an option, but abortion is.

That's all.

[overcome]

i dont want to argue with you people any more, this thread is about opinions and a discussion, argueing with someone who is warping what i say like the stupid extreamist who warped Gods word for crusades and the kuran for the current jihad.  you can twist things into whatever you like just by "translating" them into your own veiws or adding to what has been said.  either way they are half truths at best, and mostly end up being just pain wrong.

you didnt aswer my question just like i knew you wouldn't be able to. 

there isnt a good answer for that kind of shit, which is what i was trying to show you, but is a mercy kill really worse then leaving the innocent to suffer and die?  it's fucked up i know, and i dont know if i could do it in all honesty, but who are you to judge the ones who are put in that position?

you can have fun telling me how wrong i am. but your judgement means nothing to me, you are just another fake name on the internet.  i'm sure thats all i am to you, but maybe you'll figure out just how little your opinion means to me since i know mine means so little to you.   

[OzmO]

Nothing.  It's just that God's orders to destroy certain wicked nations(yes, including their babies) has been discussed for decades.  By the end of the long discussions, once people know and understand all the facts about these nations and about conditions in those ancient times, they all agree that punishing the Amalekites in the way depicted in the Bible was justified in order to end the 300 or so year threat....EXCEPT for the killing of their babies.  It all comes down to the babies.  And they all, just like you, come to the conclusion that the only other thing left to do was to have Israel adopt all those babies. 

So, I just find it ironic that people believe that Israel should have adopted all those babies, in a time when Israel did not have the money, the food, the infrastructure, and the means in general to do so.  They already had enough babies, children, elderly, sick and crippled of their own to take care of.  Adoption would have meant the slow, painful death of not only the adopted babies of Israel's enemies, but also of Israel's babies and eventually all of Israel.  Those were harsh times and Israel did not have the means to bear the burden.

The irony is that in today's world, developed countries do have the money, the food, the infrastructure and the means in general to adopt unwanted babies.  Yet, to many pregnant women today, and to the men who support abortion, adoption is not an option, but abortion is.

That's all.

I agree there's is an irony here in today's world among so many.

I don't agree any whole nations of adults needed to be killed in any respect.  And i don't agree that killing the children because we had no other thing to do with them is justifiable.  If we take the task of ridding EVIL then we take on the responsibility fo raising the orphans at whatever burden or If we just kill those kids we are as EVIL as the nation we just killed.

That is not GOD.

[Hustle Man]

Ozmo, what do you really believe about?

God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit?

I read some disbelief or maybe just a level of uncertainty in many of your posts and thats ok but you seem to be searching for answers so I thought I would ask.
 

 
 

[loco]

No i do not support abortion, i support the right for a mother to choose and if she chooses to murder her child i believe it's a sin and wrong.  Making abortion legal or not has nothing to do with the choices she makes.  She will choose regardless of the law.

It's like this loco:

Is it better for people to do the "right" thing becuase it's the law or is it better for people to do the right thing becuase they choose to do so?

So you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice for the reasons you state above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what about these mothers we hear about on the news all the time who kill their grown children?  That's illegal and it should be.  These mothers are put in prison, some even on death row, and they should be punished.  The fact that it is illegal did not stop these women from murdering their children.

By your logic above, what's the difference between this and legal abortions?  By your logic, we may as well make it legal for mothers to kill their grown children if they so choose.  

I can see somebody who doesn't believe that abortion is murder to see a difference between these two, but you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.

[OzmO]

So you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice for the reasons you state above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what about these mothers we hear about on the news all the time who kill their grown children?  That's illegal and it should be.  These mothers are put in prison, some even on death row, and they should be punished.  The fact that it is illegal did not stop these women from murdering their children.

By your logic above, what's the difference between this and legal abortions?  By your logic, we may as well make it legal for mothers to kill their grown children if they so choose. 

I can see somebody who doesn't believe that abortion is murder to see a difference between these two, but you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.

loco, you keep applying  the 2, the law and a person's moral compass.  When those things are separate from each other.  People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.

[OzmO]

Ozmo, what do you really believe about?

God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit?

I read some disbelief or maybe just a level of uncertainty in many of your posts and thats ok but you seem to be searching for answers so I thought I would ask.
 

 
 

I believe the Bible is not the 100% Word of God. I believe it's mostly the word of man and his agenda of the time it was written.

i am certain the "true God" would not order the death of an entire nation of children.

[Hustle Man]

I believe the Bible is not the 100% Word of God. I believe it's mostly the word of man and his agenda of the time it was written.

i am certain the "true God" would not order the death of an entire nation of children.

What makes you so certain of this and who is the true God in your opinion? Can you back up this claim?

[loco]

Loco, who said that a zygote is a "child"? If God thinks zygotes are "children," or "fully human," why does Mother Nature kill off so many of them, often before the mother realizes they are there?

And if a zygote implants itself outside the uterus (or some other big flaw) in a manner such that continued pregnancy will endanger the mother's life, why can't pregnancy be terminated? Would you rather see a mother of 3 die because of her fourth pregnancy, or terminate the fatal fourth pregnancy and let her live to take care of her children and maybe have some more?

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.

"At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

[OzmO]

What makes you so certain of this and who is the true God in your opinion? Can you back up this claim?

Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.

God is God, regardless of what you or i think or believe and his message to "everyone" has been ambiguous at best unless you see the similarities and consistencies in all religions.  whether you are Jewish, Orthodox or what have you, all religions are right.  Just some are right-er that others but NO religion is totally right.

[Hustle Man]

Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control. So in your opinion the entire bible is man's word not Gods word; in short a lie to deceive mankind?

God is God, regardless of what you or i think or believe and his message to "everyone" has been ambiguous at best unless you see the similarities and consistencies in all religions.  whether you are Jewish, Orthodox or what have you, all religions are right.  Just some are right-er that others but NO religion is totally right.

Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?
 
Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.

Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?

[columbusdude82]

Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?
 
Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.

Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?

All the evidence we have at our disposal up to this point suggests that the God of the Hebrew Bible does not exist. It is, therefore, futile to discuss is "wrath" and other angry attributes, except in the context of mythology.

Hope this helps.

[loco]

Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.

OzmO,
Was it not you who said that man is good and has no need for a written law and has no need for a saviour? 

If the God of the Bible is, as you say, petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control, and if this God is, as you say, the creation of man, then are you not saying that man is petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control?

[Butterbean]

Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.

But the above are characteristics of mankind, aren't they?


OzmO, do you believe any part of the bible is true?  If so, what criteria do you use to determine what you deem as acceptable as truth?

[loco]

loco, you keep applying  the 2, the law and a person's moral compass.  When those things are separate from each other.  People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.

So why have any laws then?  Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife? 

If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?

[Hustle Man]

All the evidence we have at our disposal up to this point suggests that the God of the Hebrew Bible does not exist. It is, therefore, futile to discuss is "wrath" and other angry attributes, except in the context of mythology.

Hope this helps.

Hahaha yeah that helped! I understand now  your existence is futile! Why do you continue in this futile existence? Or do you think you will come back as a dog in Michael Vick's dog fighting ring?

[columbusdude82]

Hahaha yeah that helped! I understand now  your existence is futile! Why do you continue in this futile existence? Or do you think you will come back as a dog in Michael Vick's dog fighting ring?

Wow, what a perfectly logical retort... My existence is futile because one mythological character does not really exist??? Yeah, makes perfect sense...

Might as well say, "your existence is futile because Zeus doesn't exist"... As for Vick, I can't see what that has to do with anything...

[OzmO]

So in your opinion the entire bible is man's word not Gods word; in short a lie to deceive mankind?

no,  you are assuming i think the "entire" Bible is man's word.

Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?

Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.

Who wrote Genesis 1:1?  You have no proof or any idea who wrote it, you only have the Belief it was wrote by God and the belief it was wrote by God based on other people's belief.

Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?

I think the whole concept of humans born as such sinful wretched creatures is a bunch BS crap conjured up by churches organized religions to keep followers.

I believe in God's creation, i.e. Mankind, i believe we are in a process of growth both individually and as a species.  I reject the idea that God created  us imperfect and that we must be perfect to reconcile with him based on Adam's and Eve's fall.  God created us and put us on earth so that we can realize our potential and grow spiritually, not live with our self-esteem repressed.

[OzmO]

OzmO,
Was it not you who said that man is good and has no need for a written law and has no need for a saviour? 

If the God of the Bible is, as you say, petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control, and if this God is, as you say, the creation of man, then are you not saying that man is petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control?

No,  People do need laws, not everyone and someday we will grow enough as a species that there will be few laws as we will treat others with dignity and respect.  But that's probably thousands of years away, but we are slowly heading there.

And yes, mankind is all those things and also man kind is compassionate, kind, loving, generous, nurturing etc...

[OzmO]

So why have any laws then?  Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife? 

If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?

Actually, on the first group of laws I'd get rid of is non-victimize crimes.  drug use & prostitution.  You point about abortion is correct if you believe upon conception the baby is a life which a point of debate amongst many.  I for one think it is a life but I've explained my position on it already and won't these murders you speak have to answer to god any way as well be punished on earth?

It would be a different world loco if things as black and white as you like them to be.  but they are not.

Remember:   

1.  we have the law of the land
2.  The way we choose to live our lives


They are not always the same.