Author Topic: Happy Hiroshima Day!!! hundreds of thousands japs zapped in a flash whoohoo!!!!  (Read 5782 times)

24KT

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gee, thanks for letting us know your vaunted opinion.

You're very welcome.  :-*
w

OzmO

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Here are some more quotes to help us flesh out why they were against the atomic bombings:

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."
---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II


Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, quoted by his widow:
". . . I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life. . . . We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything." And – E. B. Potter, naval historian wrote: "Nimitz considered the atomic bomb somehow indecent, certainly not a legitimate form of warfare."


Rear Admiral Richard Byrd:
"Especially it is good to see the truth told about the last days of the war with Japan. . . . I was with the Fleet during that period; and every officer in the Fleet knew that Japan would eventually capitulate from . . . the tight blockade."


Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy:
"I, too, felt strongly that it was a mistake to drop the atom bombs, especially without warning." [The atomic bomb] "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion . . . it was clear to a number of people . . . that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate . . . it was a sin – to use a good word – [a word that] should be used more often – to kill non-combatants. . . ."


Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces.
". . . [F]rom the Japanese standpoint the atomic bomb was really a way out. The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell. . . ."

There are a lot more quotes just like that from some big guns.

Thanks for the quotes, Decker.  I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on this.

Decker

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Thanks for the quotes, Decker.  I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on this.
No problem Ozmo.  I went through the same evaluation after I started to read on the matter.  It happened when I was reading Einstein's Ideas and Opinions--a compilation of essays and letters--and I came across his letter to FDR asking him to pursue the atomic bomb.  He's a very lucid writer.


Al-Gebra

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No problem Ozmo.  I went through the same evaluation after I started to read on the matter.  It happened when I was reading Einstein's Ideas and Opinions--a compilation of essays and letters--and I came across his letter to FDR asking him to pursue the atomic bomb.  He's a very lucid writer.



Leahy's position seems pretty clear . . . so I won't argue with that, but I will argue w how much weight he carried w Congress.  This was a time of Eisenhowers, MacArthurs, and even Lemays (in the 50s)

the rest:

Nimitz was quoted by his widow.

Byrd was a rear admiral.

Strauss was a paper-pusher.

Arnold's words hardly support the position that he was against the bomb.




Lemay and macarthur . . .  their actions speak louder than any words they might have uttered.

Finally, hindsight is 20-20.  Truman, changed the way the game was played . . . and he did it for more reasons than the obvious ones.

OzmO

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Leahy's position seems pretty clear . . . so I won't argue with that, but I will argue w how much weight he carried w Congress.  This was a time of Eisenhowers, MacArthurs, and even Lemays (in the 50s)

the rest:

Nimitz was quoted by his widow.

Byrd was a rear admiral.

Strauss was a paper-pusher.

Arnold's words hardly support the position that he was against the bomb.




Lemay and macarthur . . .  their actions speak louder than any words they might have uttered.

Finally, hindsight is 20-20.  Truman, changed the way the game was played . . . and he did it for more reasons than the obvious ones.

It's a very tough call and in the tumult of war it's easy to get second guessed as well as it's easy for those Generals to say the things they said after the fact.

Couldn't they have just dropped it next to a city?

Hopefully no one can deny that nuclear weapons have helped prevent large scale prolonged military escalations between super powers.

Al-Gebra

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Countries have too much to lose and the threate of MAD or AD has kept the planet going.

But a terrorist organization doesn't stand to lose near as much as a country.  Granted, they're not going to be able to do near as much as the US can, or the USSR possibly can . . . but it's only a matter of time. 

then our way of life will change.

OzmO

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Countries have too much to lose and the threate of MAD or AD has kept the planet going.

But a terrorist organization doesn't stand to lose near as much as a country.  Granted, they're not going to be able to do near as much as the US can, or the USSR possibly can . . . but it's only a matter of time. 

then our way of life will change.

That will be the darkest day that marks the beginning of a bleak future of life in a police state.

freespirit

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The Japanese brought that to themselves. They can blame themselves for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It's justified to take a life if by doing so you can prevent that other people, or more people will die if you let that person live.

Therefor  the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is justified, because it ended the war quickly, which otherwise would have caused many more life's.

Relatives (father side) have been in Japanese prison camps in Indonesia. I've heard the stories first hand. The period after that was maybe even worse (Bersiap), but that's another story.

Decker

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Leahy's position seems pretty clear . . . so I won't argue with that, but I will argue w how much weight he carried w Congress.  This was a time of Eisenhowers, MacArthurs, and even Lemays (in the 50s)

the rest:

Nimitz was quoted by his widow.

Byrd was a rear admiral.

Strauss was a paper-pusher.

Arnold's words hardly support the position that he was against the bomb.




Lemay and macarthur . . .  their actions speak louder than any words they might have uttered.

Finally, hindsight is 20-20.  Truman, changed the way the game was played . . . and he did it for more reasons than the obvious ones.
Generals can only persuade Congress.  They have no constitutional powers otherwise affecting it.  But that’s irrelevant b/c Congress already declared war and the decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan was Truman’s and his alone.

Nimitz was quoted by his widow???  She's was an obvious liar taking full advantage of hearsay.  I'm kidding.  I appreciate it that you took the time to check the sources I posted.  Here’s a direct quote of Nimitz on the matter:

Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings stated:

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. . . .The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. . . . "

As for Arnold, he gave other statements to the public reasserting that the Japanese were ready to surrender.

"The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air." (full quote already listed in this thread)

In his 1949 memoirs Arnold observed that "it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."

* Arnold's deputy, Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, summed up his understanding this way in an internal military history interview:

Arnold's view was that it [the dropping of the atomic bomb] was unnecessary. He said that he knew the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it. [THE DECISION, p. 335.]
Eaker reported that Arnold told him:

When the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the Commander in Chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessity of a land invasion. [THE DECISION, p. 335.]

http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

These generals do not mince words.  They were against the bombing b/c they viewed Japan as vanquished.

OzmO

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When it comes to war anyone can virtually justify anything.  That's not really the issue here.

The question is:   Was it needed? 

freespirit

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The question is:   Was it needed? 

What other options where there? The sooner it ended the better. Ask that question to anyone who was in a Japanese prison camp.

OzmO

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What other options where there? The sooner it ended the better. Ask that question to anyone who was in a Japanese prison camp.

Read some of the posts on this thread.  there seems to have some different schools of thought as to what options were available:

-  They were going to surrender to our terms because they lacked the ability to win a war
-  They were already in the process of negotiating a surrender

Decker

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When it comes to war anyone can virtually justify anything.  That's not really the issue here.

The question is:   Was it needed? 
You are asking for a conclusion on the motive of the president in dropping the bomb.  The only thing I did was show you where some of the generals's heads were at regarding the military necessity of dropping the bombs.  It is evident that they thought it unnecessary to bomb Japan with nuclear weapons to secure victory or surrender.

I am not a fatalist thinking that the bombs had to be dropped to save american lives.

Did Truman order the bombings to show the Russians where it's at so to speak?  I don't know.  The only thing I can conclude at the moment is that many of the the US's finest generals/admirals thought that use of nuclear warheads was not necessary to compel Japan to surrender.

Beyond that, I haven't come to any conclusion.

Al-Gebra

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Someone mentioned that we wanted unconditional surrender, and this is true.  The japanese would probably have surrendered unconditionally w/o the bomb, but they were not ready to do so immediately.

Meanwhile the Russians were ready to turn their attention to japan.  See Germany for our position on that.

we could have continued to fly bombers over japan, but for the bombers to operate w reasonable accuracy, they had to fly w/in range of anti-aircraft flak.  Unneeded losses in a war that was already supposedly done.  And we had already literally bombed them into the stone age . . .

a land invasion would have been expensive too.  this was the land of kamikaze and hara-kiri.

So, truman took out his ace in the hole. did he need to? most people would say no. 

Other factors:

Opportunity to test new technology.

To show the Russians what we were capable of.  this was huge.

Camel Jockey

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Show the commies at the expense of 250,000 lives. YES!!

I wish Vince Goodrum would hara-kiri himself.

Dos Equis

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This isn't PC, and I've never thought of this before, but perhaps Hiroshima was the consequence of Japan's ruthless slaughter throughout Asia?  If you’ve ever read Rape of Nanking you’ll understand what I mean.   

Camel Jockey

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This isn't PC, and I've never thought of this before, but perhaps Hiroshima was the consequence of Japan's ruthless slaughter throughout Asia?  If you’ve ever read Rape of Nanking you’ll understand what I mean.   

Have you seen footage of the burnt Jap babies? People who died of cancer 30-40 years later? Pretty sick stuff.

One wrong does not right another.

Dos Equis

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Have you seen footage of the burnt Jap babies? People who died of cancer 30-40 years later? Pretty sick stuff.

One wrong does not right another.

Yes.  I've also read about the genocide committed by the Japanese when they invaded China.  I've seen pictures of what they did to the Chinese.  I read about how they raped women in front of their families and ripped babies from the wombs of pregnant women.  I had to put Rape of Nanking down several times because it was so graphic. 

I'm not suggesting Hiroshima was justified because of what Japan did to China and throughout Asia and the Pacific.  I'm talking about the concept of "what goes around, comes around"; that people who do evil eventually suffer.  Just thinking out loud.   

headhuntersix

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Pretty spirited debate.....let me put to u this way. Where I an officer in the Imperial Army, on Japan, suferinmg almost daily bombing raids, it would have pissed me off. I would have begun preparing my foxhole in my garden, my wife would be learning to load a Nambu machine gun, and my kids would have begun buillding suicide vests. After the Bomb however...we all would have gone to work for Honda. There is a huge difference between a 500 lbs bomb, or napalm, then a friggen nuke. We all know this. It would tend to bring u to the table that much quicker. Plus the allies already saw the Russians gobbling up Eastern Europe, rather quickly. The could not afford to have them tear assing around the Pacific. Drop the bomb, end the war and get on with rebuilding. Perhaps even curb Soviet ambition in Europe. It certainly did in Asia for a time.
L

Camel Jockey

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They also used koreans for target practice. Besides the point.

If a land invasion was needed, then they had no choice but to drop the nukes. But if they were going to surrender then it was a damn shame to have killed 200,000+ civilians for the sake of showing might to the commies.

freespirit

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Drop the bomb, end the war and get on with rebuilding.

Case closed. The nuking was justified.

How many of you have heard about what happened in Japanese prison camps, first hand from a survivor?

I did.  

headhuntersix

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What they did to China was enough.
L

Al-Gebra

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Yes.  I've also read about the genocide committed by the Japanese when they invaded China.  I've seen pictures of what they did to the Chinese.  I read about how they raped women in front of their families and ripped babies from the wombs of pregnant women.  I had to put Rape of Nanking down several times because it was so graphic. 

I'm not suggesting Hiroshima was justified because of what Japan did to China and throughout Asia and the Pacific.  I'm talking about the concept of "what goes around, comes around"; that people who do evil eventually suffer.  Just thinking out loud.   


the biggest reason for the nuking lies below 25 ft of clear water not far from where you are.

headhuntersix

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Good to go bro
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Dos Equis

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the biggest reason for the nuking lies below 25 ft of clear water not far from where you are.

Yes I agree.  Pearl Harbor. 

My point was more about karma.